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12:58 AM
so the tor browser is just firefox wearing a hoodie so it trends with the "kids" like me change my mind
oh horses yeah i fell off one when i was a kid and thought that my dad intentionally put me on the differently able old one so that would happen
 
1:27 AM
oh well i guess this room isnt going to enable me today tbh the best animal experiences growing up on a farm were the wildlife that i encountered as a kid, like my dad and i found a baby owl that was tossed out the nest for well i guess being an owl equivalent of an adam is a feasible conjecture
 
Tim
1:55 AM
I have a coupon for a free Raspberry Pi Zero W at Micro Center. I can give it to any one who wants it.
and can go to its tore for pickup
They also have free 32GB flash drive and 32GB microSD (including a microSD-SD adapter). Need to register at microcenter.com/site/content/flashspecialoffer2.aspx
I don't have time to walk there again
 
2:15 AM
Vim: Caught deadly signal TERM
Vim: Finished.
Terminated
RIP
 
 
4 hours later…
6:44 AM
@AndrasDeak I just wanted to apologise for my last comment, which sounds rude. That wasn't my intention. Plus it was late at night. So sorry.
@AndrasDeak It's "clarified". (Oh no, here I go again.)
 
7:41 AM
Is regular-expressions.info generally reliable and accurate? It seems so.
 
7:58 AM
@FaheemMitha perhaps in your neck of the woods; but in mine, its use hasn’t deviated from its dictionary sense
 
8:55 AM
@StephenKitt I'm not sure what use you are talking about. And what dictionary definition?
 
9:17 AM
What does this line actually do?
latexmk -pdf -shell-escape -interaction=nonstopmode "${filenames[@]}"
Apparently ${arr[@]} means "Retrieve all elements".
I'm guessing it expands the whole array as a string in place.
With spaces in between. Though I don't know why it would do that.
 
10:07 AM
15 hours ago, by Faheem Mitha
It basically means commonly occurring. It's usually used in a non-human context.
in reference to “endemic”
 
@StephenKitt Ok. So which part doesn't apply, in your opinion? The non-homan part?
 
@FaheemMitha both, IME
I hear it used mostly without reference to commonality, in human and non-human contexts
but again, language use varies quite a lot from one area of the world to another
 
@StephenKitt I see. You've heard people using with reference to themselves, as an individual?
 
@FaheemMitha no, with reference to things which affect humans
 
@StephenKitt Oh. I thought @AndrasDeak was using it with reference to himself. But perhaps he didn't provide a complete sentence.
 
10:14 AM
@FaheemMitha yeah I’m not saying Andras used it correctly
 
This was the original quote:
18 hours ago, by Andras Deak
Being the aboriginal urban kid that I am I was 17 when I first saw a horse from up close. It was huge. I mean, it was as large as a horse.
 
I know, and “endemic” doesn’t work there either
 
@StephenKitt Ok. To be clear, I meant the word is normally used with respect to non-human things or entities. Like diseases.
Those could (and normally would) be things that affect humans.
Or sagebrush in the Midwest, perhaps.
 
@FaheemMitha ah right, yes, I agree
 
Well, latexmk is being most vexing.
You stupid command, you're supposed to tell me what the error is. Return code 1 is not helpful.
@StephenKitt Glad we're on the same page.
Bugs don't care if you are in a hurry to get on to other things. They're really inconsiderate like that.
 
10:44 AM
Anyone following unfolding events in Delhi?
Things appear to be going pear-shaped.
 
11:38 AM
@jesse_b it's incredible how childhood experiences shape the way we turn out and trauma or happy memory i thinks something that doesnt get talked about enough, we define these neat little boxes of how kids experience the world and how we should be micromanaging
parentally, but hey there is a solid body of evidence for those in psyc that have conjectured birthing trauma as the causality of complex PTSD, so yeah, the child was overly concious during the process of birth which, being t=0, is as traumatic as it gets, so yeah no way to protect a kid from that lol
but yeah when watching the 8th episode of film cow's "llamas with hats" i literally thought ok the internet is trolling me personally now
a sense of humor really is a life saver granted you dont end up in hollywood, in which case its the comedians equivalent of an elephant graveard i guess lol
 
12:37 PM
@FaheemMitha no offense taken, don't worry about it. I just didn't want to get lost in a meta rabbit hole. I often express things sillily which I find amusing, despite the fact that I'm aware that my sense of humour is very peculiar and I'm usually the only person finding these amusing. But for what it's worth what I originally said is exactly what I would have said in my native language as well.
@FaheemMitha oh yeah, that was just a typo
@FaheemMitha you might also benefit from regex101.com, I'm told it's a great resource (thought it's probably more geared toward testing specific regexen)
@FaheemMitha sounds like latex to me
@FaheemMitha unfortunately no, I just had to look it up. I had a rough idea about the situation (farmer protests) in general, but not because it made it in our news.
 
@FaheemMitha indeed they look very elegant from a distance, but up close they reveal themselves some kind of menacing bird cartel. only trouble with my swan hatred is that they are on the Western Australian state emblem, so if forfilled some kind of deeply held desire and committed a swan massacre on Australia day, well, my online personality is as non appropriate as my every day commentary on life so literally everyone in the city will know it was me, ill be seen as some kind evil person
if i resort to violence the swans win is what i think now lol
 
12:56 PM
@FaheemMitha does expand, but not to a single string with spaces in-between, quite. It "expands each element of (the array) to a separate word." when it's double-quoted, like that. So instead of one string with spaces, latexmk sees each individual element (filenames, presumably).
 
1:11 PM
@FaheemMitha ah sorry that was poorly communicated on my part, i was refering to all of the ssh related queries i had raised earlier, and you replied that maybe considering a front end would be an easier option, but that going the way i was would at least be an educational experience albeit very unnecessarily long winded
@FaheemMitha but when i set learn tasks for myself now i try to pack as much as i can education wise really due to a feeling i have of needing an accelerated learning process for linux in general, and when i found a guide to setting up a vpn via ppp-ssh on Debian that was so well written, it seemed like a solid achievable objective to set myself for the next month
I did actually write a letter thanking the person to the email that was in the introduction, but it bounced, which is fair, it was written more than 20 years ago, but hey the guy that made netcat replied when i sent a thanks email to him, really interesting person actually but yeah i mean it had to of played a huge part educationally, i mean ut taught me a lot of core concepts in a very brief amount of time, sure it has been replaced with something else but for someone that wants to learn
this kind of stuff at an age of 37, well yeah these things are making it possible tbh
anyway long and short of it all im getting very close to having it running between my two machines,introduces me to the concept rsa keys, ssh, and just forcing myself to trouble shoot until i can get there, albeit with stuff that has been around for a long time and im being spoon fed in a tutorial, but yeah its definately been a good choice as a project
 
 
2 hours later…
3:36 PM
@AndrasDeak Thanks for your understanding. I'm usually reasonably courteous, but lapses do occur. Also, to my surprise, sillily is a real adverb.
@AndrasDeak I've not used that one. At least, the site does not look familiar.
@AndrasDeak Technically latexmk is Perl, I think.
For some reason it was hiding the error. pdflatex showed it. Either that, or I missed it somehow.
@AndrasDeak Lots of commotion. Farmers on tractors vs the police outside the Red Fort. Not something you see every day.
@AdamL forfilled -> fulfilled. I'm pretty sure this one isn't a word.
@AdamL Writing a thank you note is a good thing. Too few of us do that. And usually only when we have some other reason for writing. Typically either a bug report or feature request.
And writing free software is a thankless business. I'm surprised anyone does it.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:49 PM
@JeffSchaller I'm not sure what you mean by "instead of one string with spaces, latexmk sees each individual element". Do you have a reference for this?
arr=(smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex)
echo "${arr[@]}"
ls -lah "${arr[@]}"
suggests that it does expand in place as a string.
 
it’s the same as "$@" but for arrays
 
@StephenKitt I'm not sure what that syntax is.
 
with your example above, run printf "%s\n" "${arr[@]}"
 
@FaheemMitha sounds like rather than latexmk "potayto potahtoe tomato" it's latexmk "potayto" "potahto" "tomato", even if the array elements have spaces in them. But it might sound wrong.
 
@AndrasDeak yup, the effect is the same as that, but without the quotes
 
4:53 PM
yeah, I meant as an analogue (I daren't guess how bash actually works)
 
5:11 PM
@FaheemMitha what Andras said. Instead of the command and arguments being: "latexmk", "one and two three", it's "latexmk", "one and two", "three"
and the reference I copy/pasted from was man bash, under Arrays. Takes a few sentences to piece it all together, between @ and being in double-quotes.
you won't see a difference using echo or ls, but rather with what Stephen said, telling printf to put each argument on its own line
 
i just dont know how everyone else handles contemplating the scary component of the internet
the ability to remotely propagate the modern day equilvalent of a witch hunt i mean, incite violence and riots. ive spent enough time around the demographic to know they are waiting for any reason to pop up in the social media that gives them a sense of right to socially congregate and just do what idiots do
getting stupid people riled up is always going to be horrifying anyway
the system is broken therefore lets break stuff and damage public places
 
6:11 PM
@JeffSchaller @StephenKitt @AndrasDeak So the values of the array are printed, separated by something. By default it's space, but it doesn't have to be. What determines it? The Bash man page says:
> IFS special variable
whatever that is. Is it that?
I don't find man pages the easiest things to read. They tend to assume you understand what you are reading about already. A common but annoying occurrence in Unix-land.
 
6:32 PM
The array[*] expansion brings in IFS considerations. What I was trying to say was that using array[@] like you were is the right thing to do -- it provides each of the elements (filenames) to latexmk as their own individual arguments. When you used it with echo, echo just saw them as individual arguments and behaved just like echo 1 2 3 would do. Same thing with ls. The printf helped you see that each argument came through independently.
 
@JeffSchaller Ok. In most languages it wouldn't just print out the individual values, though.
It would print a representation of the structure. Possible user customizable.
 
@FaheemMitha How so? All languages I know would print an array by printing each element of the array (possibly quoted), separated by whatever that language uses as an array separator. That's what bash does too.
Python adds the annoying brackets to indicate an array, but you can turn that off, I think. Do other languages also add similar decorations?
 
@terdon They do that, yes. But they also include a representation of the array.
 
@FaheemMitha what do you mean by "a representation"?
And what languages?
 
@terdon You can turn it off? And yes, that's what I have in mind. It's intended to be representational.
@terdon Something that shows the thing being printed is an array, or whatever it is.
 
6:46 PM
Well, I don't know if you can turn it off. You probably need to iterate over the array and print each value. What is more confusing is why you consider this a feature and not a bug.
 
@terdon R and Python are the examples that come immediately to mind.
 
If I print something, then I want its values, not the variable type.
 
Common Lisp does something similar.
 
we will not tolerate array printization without representation!
 
The less said about R the better.
Hardly a good example of a sane language.
 
6:47 PM
@terdon I'm confused that you're confused. You want an array to print as just its values?
 
Python, OK. I don't know why python does this and I really wish it wouldn't. It's a pain.
@FaheemMitha Of course. Why else would I print an array if not to see its values?
 
@terdon Agreed, but you asked for examples. It's widely used and hardly obscure.
 
fair
 
@terdon You might want to see that it's an array.
 
When do you find it useful to get [ "foo", "bar", "baz" ] instead of "foo" "bar" "baz"? either I wrote the program, so I know it's an array (or I am using a decent language that uses different symbols for different types of variables :P ), or I am just using the program so have no reason to know how anything works internally and only need the output.
 
6:49 PM
My knowledge of languages is sufficiently limited that I can't immediately think of any others. Well, unless you count something like Maxima a language. Or Matlab.
@terdon If I want to make sure that the thing being printed is a Python list (in this case).
 
@FaheemMitha Eh, you've already surpassed my knowledge of counterexamples, so your point's been well made. I had forgotten R does this, and only knew of python.
 
I suppose I could ask for its type. But that conveys the same information.
 
@FaheemMitha When would you want that if it isn't a program you wrote though?
Printing is usually (when not debugging) so that the program's output can be shown on screen or saved to a file. I can't think of a case where it would be helpful to have [ included and can think of a dozen where that makes my life harder and my code more complicated because I need to loop over the array instead of just printing it.
 
@terdon Dunno. When debugging? In general I like types/classes to declare themselves unambiguously. I'm surprised you don't feel the same.
If not, a Python dict and list and set could be easily confused.
 
@FaheemMitha well, that's what the expansion part of that is for. It expands to each element.
 
6:52 PM
@FaheemMitha Perl does that (@array, $scalar, %hash) so there's no benefit in also including it when printing. I know what I'm printing already by the variable type. And it makes sense when debugging, yes, that's why I mentioned "when not debugging" above.
 
there is absolutely nothing ambiguous about the declaration of an array in bash
you are not talking about declaration though
 
@JeffSchaller The expansion part? You mean the @?
 
@FaheemMitha precisely. One more reason why it's annoying that python doesn't have any indicators for variables or variable types. Granted, it does make for cleaner code though.
 
@FaheemMitha pretty much, yep
 
@terdon I don't follow. You mean the names have @ etc in them?
 
6:53 PM
yes
 
I'm not a Perl user.
@terdon And that's compulsory?
 
All array variables are @variable, scalars are $scalar and hashes are %hash. And yes, compulsory.
 
@terdon So if you don't name it that way bad things happen?
 
syntax errors
 
@FaheemMitha no, the values of the array aren’t printed, they’re expanded. What happens next depends on what command you use.
 
6:55 PM
@terdon Oh.
@StephenKitt What's the difference? I feel I'm missing something.
 
terdon@tpad ~ $ perl -le 'k="aa"'
Can't modify constant item in scalar assignment at -e line 1, at EOF
Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
terdon@tpad ~ $ perl -le '$k="aa"'
terdon@tpad ~ $
 
@terdon You don't use an intepreter?
 
You mean an interactive shell like python has? No. Not for perl.
 
Clearly Python and Perl have rather different styles, at least in this respect.
 
perl is an interpreter
 
6:57 PM
yeah, that's not what he meant, presumably
 
@FaheemMitha if you run cat "${array[@]}", you won’t get the same result as echo "${array[@]}"
 
@terdon Yes, and R and Common Lisp and Ruby and Julia.
@StephenKitt Hmm. Ok, trying that.
 
@StephenKitt challenge accepted
 
@StephenKitt It prints cat and then hangs.
 
@jesse_b Barney, what have you done with jesse_b?
@FaheemMitha no
 
6:58 PM
@FaheemMitha try again but have $array defined.
 
how would cat print cat?
 
@StephenKitt Hang on.
Sorry, it prints nothing.
The command appears to be just "cat".
So the second part expands to nothing.
 
@FaheemMitha exactly, so what happened to "${array[@]}"?
or "{arr[@]}" to continue your earlier example
 
@StephenKitt I don't know.
But it seems it was replaced with a blank or similar.
 
@FaheemMitha forget about printing
actually no, does echo "${arr[@]}" print anything?
 
7:01 PM
+ arr=(smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex)
+ echo smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex
smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex
I turned on set -x.
 
OK, so cat "${arr[@]}" won’t just not do anything.
 
@StephenKitt cat "${array[@]}"
 
@FaheemMitha cat "${arr[@]}"
 
gives
 
@StephenKitt I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
 
7:03 PM
+ arr=(smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex)
+ cat
 
@JeffSchaller yeah that was about as intelligible as Bilbo
 
@StephenKitt What's the difference?
 
victory is mine!
 
@FaheemMitha array isn’t defined, in your tests
 
looks like you have two array names going -- arr and array
 
7:04 PM
$ cat "${array[@]}"
foo bar baz
$ echo "${array[@]}"
foo bar baz
$
 
@JeffSchaller That's from "The Fellowship of the Ring". I don't know the occasion, though.
 
@FaheemMitha I was teasing Stephen for the double-negative
 
@FaheemMitha Bilbo’s birthday party
 
@JeffSchaller Oh right. Sorry. One sec.
 
$ cat foo
foo $ cat bar
bar $ cat baz
baz
$
 
7:06 PM
@StephenKitt It appears to print out the contents of the files.
 
@FaheemMitha yup
 
@jesse_b cheater! Not real text files with no trailing \n! :P
 
@StephenKitt I meant Jeff's occasion, not Bilbo's occasion.
 
Conversations here can get hard to follow, on occasion.
 
7:07 PM
probably due to the monkeys
 
@terdon Thank goodness! > be thankful we can’t top-post!
 
I... don't know what that is.
I want to say Reddit?
 
(whistles innocently)
 
I was just thinking of email
 
@terdon in general every type in python supports str() and repr(). The former is for (pretty) printing/string conversion, and the latter is a more technical representation (that is ideally enough to reproduce the original object). As a rule python containers have an str() that uses the repr() of contained items. And you need the square brackets to be able to distinguish between [1, 2, 3], (1, 2, 3) and {1, 2, 3}. To the vast majority of users this is a good thing.
 
7:07 PM
@StephenKitt So it's just doing
cat smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex
?
How is that different?
 
@FaheemMitha yes
@FaheemMitha compared to what?
 
@AndrasDeak why? I still haven't found any case where it is helpful for me. I mean, OK, it can be useful in the python shell, but not really in scripts. Or not in my experience anyway
 
echo smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex vs cat smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex
 
@jesse_b echo v. cat
 
@StephenKitt Well, echo or ls or printf.
 
7:09 PM
@terdon because if you print(l) you want to print a list. If you don't want to print a list do print(*l) which gives you each item separately.
 
14 mins ago, by Stephen Kitt
@FaheemMitha no, the values of the array aren’t printed, they’re expanded. What happens next depends on what command you use.
 
And I never said it's helpful to you. I'm just saying your requirements are not typical :P
 
@AndrasDeak But why do I want to print the brackets and not the list's contents? When do I want to see the variable's structure, unless I am writing/debugging the script?
@AndrasDeak Sure, sure. I am just struggling to understand when this would be useful outside the context of debugging a script
 
@StephenKitt It seems to do pretty much the same thing every time.
It just behaves like adding the values of the array in front, separated by spaces.
No doubt I'm missing some point or the other.
@terdon Well, debugging is the most common usage of print.
 
my point was that they’re not printed, in reaction to
1 hour ago, by Faheem Mitha
@JeffSchaller @StephenKitt @AndrasDeak So the values of the array are printed, separated by something. By default it's space, but it doesn't have to be. What determines it? The Bash man page says:
to understand the point of the quotes and [@], you need to experiment with values containing spaces
 
7:12 PM
@StephenKitt Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that every command just prints the array values.
 
@FaheemMitha only for programmers, not users. print is essentially the only way of getting a program's output, I would say that is its most common usage: printing output.
 
and then compare "${arr[@]}" and "${arr[*]}"
 
@terdon Sure. Though even users might want to see diagnostic output, if only to report it.
@StephenKitt Ok.
But languages are written to be used by programmers, after all. Or people trying to program.
 
@terdon again: you are printing the list, not the list's contents. If you want to print the list's contents don't print the list. "Explicit is better than implicit."
The inherent listness of a list implies that you should absolutely see that it's a list
And if you don't want to print the listness of a list, what of a list of lists? Why include the square brackets for the inner lists? Why not include them?
I certainly understand how you don't need this, but I also don't see how this is not the most natural and magic-free choice.
note that there's absolutely nothing special about lists, so any rule must work for any object
 
<list object at 0x7f05b7137b00>
 
7:30 PM
I'm not sure that was ever a thing :P
 
it's a thing for every other object!
 
technically it's a thing for object()
 
that's where I got the output from: object.__repr__([])
 
 
4 hours later…
11:51 PM
disclosure timeline started 13 days ago
I'm no security expert but that sounds a bit short to me
 

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