oh well i guess this room isnt going to enable me today tbh the best animal experiences growing up on a farm were the wildlife that i encountered as a kid, like my dad and i found a baby owl that was tossed out the nest for well i guess being an owl equivalent of an adam is a feasible conjecture
@jesse_b it's incredible how childhood experiences shape the way we turn out and trauma or happy memory i thinks something that doesnt get talked about enough, we define these neat little boxes of how kids experience the world and how we should be micromanaging
parentally, but hey there is a solid body of evidence for those in psyc that have conjectured birthing trauma as the causality of complex PTSD, so yeah, the child was overly concious during the process of birth which, being t=0, is as traumatic as it gets, so yeah no way to protect a kid from that lol
but yeah when watching the 8th episode of film cow's "llamas with hats" i literally thought ok the internet is trolling me personally now
a sense of humor really is a life saver granted you dont end up in hollywood, in which case its the comedians equivalent of an elephant graveard i guess lol
@FaheemMitha no offense taken, don't worry about it. I just didn't want to get lost in a meta rabbit hole. I often express things sillily which I find amusing, despite the fact that I'm aware that my sense of humour is very peculiar and I'm usually the only person finding these amusing. But for what it's worth what I originally said is exactly what I would have said in my native language as well.
@FaheemMitha oh yeah, that was just a typo
@FaheemMitha you might also benefit from regex101.com, I'm told it's a great resource (thought it's probably more geared toward testing specific regexen)
@FaheemMitha sounds like latex to me
@FaheemMitha unfortunately no, I just had to look it up. I had a rough idea about the situation (farmer protests) in general, but not because it made it in our news.
@FaheemMitha indeed they look very elegant from a distance, but up close they reveal themselves some kind of menacing bird cartel. only trouble with my swan hatred is that they are on the Western Australian state emblem, so if forfilled some kind of deeply held desire and committed a swan massacre on Australia day, well, my online personality is as non appropriate as my every day commentary on life so literally everyone in the city will know it was me, ill be seen as some kind evil person
if i resort to violence the swans win is what i think now lol
@FaheemMitha does expand, but not to a single string with spaces in-between, quite. It "expands each element of (the array) to a separate word." when it's double-quoted, like that. So instead of one string with spaces, latexmk sees each individual element (filenames, presumably).
@FaheemMitha ah sorry that was poorly communicated on my part, i was refering to all of the ssh related queries i had raised earlier, and you replied that maybe considering a front end would be an easier option, but that going the way i was would at least be an educational experience albeit very unnecessarily long winded
@FaheemMitha but when i set learn tasks for myself now i try to pack as much as i can education wise really due to a feeling i have of needing an accelerated learning process for linux in general, and when i found a guide to setting up a vpn via ppp-ssh on Debian that was so well written, it seemed like a solid achievable objective to set myself for the next month
I did actually write a letter thanking the person to the email that was in the introduction, but it bounced, which is fair, it was written more than 20 years ago, but hey the guy that made netcat replied when i sent a thanks email to him, really interesting person actually but yeah i mean it had to of played a huge part educationally, i mean ut taught me a lot of core concepts in a very brief amount of time, sure it has been replaced with something else but for someone that wants to learn
this kind of stuff at an age of 37, well yeah these things are making it possible tbh
anyway long and short of it all im getting very close to having it running between my two machines,introduces me to the concept rsa keys, ssh, and just forcing myself to trouble shoot until i can get there, albeit with stuff that has been around for a long time and im being spoon fed in a tutorial, but yeah its definately been a good choice as a project
@AndrasDeak Thanks for your understanding. I'm usually reasonably courteous, but lapses do occur. Also, to my surprise, sillily is a real adverb.
@AndrasDeak I've not used that one. At least, the site does not look familiar.
@AndrasDeak Technically latexmk is Perl, I think.
For some reason it was hiding the error. pdflatex showed it. Either that, or I missed it somehow.
@AndrasDeak Lots of commotion. Farmers on tractors vs the police outside the Red Fort. Not something you see every day.
@AdamL forfilled -> fulfilled. I'm pretty sure this one isn't a word.
@AdamL Writing a thank you note is a good thing. Too few of us do that. And usually only when we have some other reason for writing. Typically either a bug report or feature request.
And writing free software is a thankless business. I'm surprised anyone does it.
@JeffSchaller I'm not sure what you mean by "instead of one string with spaces, latexmk sees each individual element". Do you have a reference for this?
arr=(smyt60.tex smyt61.tex smyt62.tex)
echo "${arr[@]}"
ls -lah "${arr[@]}"
suggests that it does expand in place as a string.
@FaheemMitha sounds like rather than latexmk "potayto potahtoe tomato" it's latexmk "potayto" "potahto" "tomato", even if the array elements have spaces in them. But it might sound wrong.
i just dont know how everyone else handles contemplating the scary component of the internet
the ability to remotely propagate the modern day equilvalent of a witch hunt i mean, incite violence and riots. ive spent enough time around the demographic to know they are waiting for any reason to pop up in the social media that gives them a sense of right to socially congregate and just do what idiots do
getting stupid people riled up is always going to be horrifying anyway
the system is broken therefore lets break stuff and damage public places
@JeffSchaller @StephenKitt @AndrasDeak So the values of the array are printed, separated by something. By default it's space, but it doesn't have to be. What determines it? The Bash man page says:
> IFS special variable
whatever that is. Is it that?
I don't find man pages the easiest things to read. They tend to assume you understand what you are reading about already. A common but annoying occurrence in Unix-land.
The array[*] expansion brings in IFS considerations. What I was trying to say was that using array[@] like you were is the right thing to do -- it provides each of the elements (filenames) to latexmk as their own individual arguments. When you used it with echo, echo just saw them as individual arguments and behaved just like echo 1 2 3 would do. Same thing with ls. The printf helped you see that each argument came through independently.
@FaheemMitha How so? All languages I know would print an array by printing each element of the array (possibly quoted), separated by whatever that language uses as an array separator. That's what bash does too.
Python adds the annoying brackets to indicate an array, but you can turn that off, I think. Do other languages also add similar decorations?
Well, I don't know if you can turn it off. You probably need to iterate over the array and print each value. What is more confusing is why you consider this a feature and not a bug.
When do you find it useful to get [ "foo", "bar", "baz" ] instead of "foo" "bar" "baz"? either I wrote the program, so I know it's an array (or I am using a decent language that uses different symbols for different types of variables :P ), or I am just using the program so have no reason to know how anything works internally and only need the output.
My knowledge of languages is sufficiently limited that I can't immediately think of any others. Well, unless you count something like Maxima a language. Or Matlab.
@terdon If I want to make sure that the thing being printed is a Python list (in this case).
@FaheemMitha Eh, you've already surpassed my knowledge of counterexamples, so your point's been well made. I had forgotten R does this, and only knew of python.
@FaheemMitha When would you want that if it isn't a program you wrote though?
Printing is usually (when not debugging) so that the program's output can be shown on screen or saved to a file. I can't think of a case where it would be helpful to have [ included and can think of a dozen where that makes my life harder and my code more complicated because I need to loop over the array instead of just printing it.
@FaheemMitha Perl does that (@array, $scalar, %hash) so there's no benefit in also including it when printing. I know what I'm printing already by the variable type. And it makes sense when debugging, yes, that's why I mentioned "when not debugging" above.
@FaheemMitha precisely. One more reason why it's annoying that python doesn't have any indicators for variables or variable types. Granted, it does make for cleaner code though.
@terdon in general every type in python supports str() and repr(). The former is for (pretty) printing/string conversion, and the latter is a more technical representation (that is ideally enough to reproduce the original object). As a rule python containers have an str() that uses the repr() of contained items. And you need the square brackets to be able to distinguish between [1, 2, 3], (1, 2, 3) and {1, 2, 3}. To the vast majority of users this is a good thing.
@AndrasDeak why? I still haven't found any case where it is helpful for me. I mean, OK, it can be useful in the python shell, but not really in scripts. Or not in my experience anyway
@AndrasDeak But why do I want to print the brackets and not the list's contents? When do I want to see the variable's structure, unless I am writing/debugging the script?
@AndrasDeak Sure, sure. I am just struggling to understand when this would be useful outside the context of debugging a script
@JeffSchaller @StephenKitt @AndrasDeak So the values of the array are printed, separated by something. By default it's space, but it doesn't have to be. What determines it? The Bash man page says:
to understand the point of the quotes and [@], you need to experiment with values containing spaces
@FaheemMitha only for programmers, not users. print is essentially the only way of getting a program's output, I would say that is its most common usage: printing output.
@terdon again: you are printing the list, not the list's contents. If you want to print the list's contents don't print the list. "Explicit is better than implicit."
The inherent listness of a list implies that you should absolutely see that it's a list
And if you don't want to print the listness of a list, what of a list of lists? Why include the square brackets for the inner lists? Why not include them?
I certainly understand how you don't need this, but I also don't see how this is not the most natural and magic-free choice.
note that there's absolutely nothing special about lists, so any rule must work for any object
