/dev/chat - 2016-12-02

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6:39 AM

anyone here dealt with a RanLink chipsets before?

5 hours later…

11:37 AM

I've fixed my problem with my wifi adapter..remember? it wasn't working in kali-linux..I found a solution

11:56 AM

Was

-1

Q: bumblebee and bumblebee-nvidia broke my debian

I'm using Lenovo E431. I had bumblebee installed and working well. Then I decided to open Synaptic and install bumblebee-nvidia. During the installation I got an alert about dependency conflicts. It recommended me to reboot. I did it and now my system just can't boot. And in the end of process I ...

debian dependencies bumblebee

solved in (now deleted) comments?

@StephenKitt Nope

@terdon OK so the closure reason is incorrect and the OP's comment is ironic then? Nice...

I guess. . .

5 hours later…

5:28 PM

@MichaelHomer I just read your exchange in the comments of the linux on the wsl meta post. I wanted to point out that no, Ubuntu is absolutely not off topic here! What is off topic is something that would be 100% specific to Ubuntu. Since that essentially doesn't exist, we almost never migrate questions away to AU.

Canonical services are on topic on AU but off topic here, yes. But a question about using an Ubuntu system is just as welcome here as one about using a Debian or UNIX one.

Which is why we have 5,113 questions tagged as ubuntu.

Most of those shouldn't actually be tagged with it, but you get an idea of how common it is.

5:49 PM

0

Q: How to find out where an application is installed, on physical disk?

The command "whereis " and "dpkg -L " will help in finding out an applications' location. But I am trying to understand the physical location where the application is installed, like on drive /dev/sda or /dev/sdb... I am working in a environment where my system/server is connected with 18 disks...

... now that's a hard question!

I'd have a hard time answering that for my workstation.

I mean, I'd have to trace each allocated block through device-mapper (LVM), then through mdraid

And if you have VMs, containers, SANs, ...

@derobert And yet doesn't have an upvote. . . :P

@terdon Clearly you did not, actually, read them.

@MichaelHomer I did. What did I miss?

@terdon Well, OP failed to specify any of those details in his/her question :-)

What would df /path/to/bin give on your system then?

@MichaelHomer all I'm saying is that your comments were suggesting that Ubuntu is off topic here. I wanted to clarify that it is not. It is most certainly on topic, just like any other Linux distro.

5:57 PM

@terdon the name of the logical volume

@derobert Damn.

anthony@Zia:~$ df -h /bin/ls
Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/mapper/Zia-root  148G  126G   15G  90% /

@terdon All of it? Ubuntu questions are off-topic. General questions from people using Ubuntu are not.

@MichaelHomer But what's an Ubuntu question?

@terdon They did not suggest that. They explicitly denied that.

5:58 PM

> Ubuntu questions by rule go on AU, so the tag here would be for questions that are either general or using something else. We don't want a "no Ubuntu except Windows" carve-out (!), just a tag for the ones that are on-topic. – Michael Homer Nov 17 at 9:24 edit

More clearly:

> @JdeBP: No, it isn't. Ubuntu questions are already explicitly off-topic now, as noted in the help centre. – Michael Homer Nov 18 at 3:21

OP did say the system has 18 disks. I think it's very unlikely that is a trivial mapping. I'd expect at least RAID and LVM.

That's what I wanted to clarify. Ubuntu questions are absolutely not off topic, neither explicitly or implicitly.

@derobert Yeah, makes sense.

"If your question applies to Ubuntu only, or you're looking for answers that are Ubuntu-specific, you should post it on the Ask Ubuntu Stack Exchange site"

Those are Ubuntu questions.

@MichaelHomer Yep. But I really can't think of anything that would be about Ubuntu only apart from questions about Canonical itself, Launchpad, other services they offer, design decisions of Ubuntu etc. The vast majority of Ubuntu questions are just Linux questions that happen to have been asked by a user of Ubuntu.

That "majority of" questions is not relevant to the post under discussion, which applies only to posts that would need the wsl tag (whatever it's called)

6:03 PM

@MichaelHomer Perhaps. But your comment stated that Ubuntu is explicitly off topic and that's what I wanted to clarify is not the case.

The (very few) times I've migrated an Ubuntu question to AU were not because it was off topic here, but because it was likelier to get an answer there. We don't really care for Unity questions on U&L and those are not very likely to be answered here. They are much more welcome on AU, but they're still on topic here.

Thing is, when migrating, I must choose "close"->"off topic", so it looks like the Q was marked as being off topic.

My comment did not state that Ubuntu was explicitly off-topic. It stated, correctly, that Ubuntu questions are off-topic. Questions about bash do not become off-topic because someone is using Ubuntu, but questions about Ubuntu should go on AU, as should non-general questions about BOUoW.

(Or, they shouldn't, as stated later, but it's established that they do)

@MichaelHomer OK, you're making a distinction between "Ubuntu questions" and "Questions about Ubuntu" that wasn't clear to me from your comment.

As long as you're not under the impression that questions about Ubuntu aren't on topic, I'll stop bugging you.

Not sure which original comment you two are speaking of, but "Ubuntu questions are off-topic" is real easy to misunderstand. It's easy to misunderstand that to include questions about bash (etc.) by someone running Ubuntu.

i.e. questions about bash are not "Ubuntu questions" regardless of where you ask them, but questions needing the wsl tag about BOUoW are almost certainly tied deeply to Ubuntu specifically.

Just like I might (for example) tell someone that Windows questions go on Superuser, when they ask about Notepad+. (I think that's the name of a 3rd party Windows program...)

6:10 PM

... which was the point of the original comment.

The rest of the discussion I did not care for.

@MichaelHomer Yeah, I get it. But your comment(s) were not clear. Not to me, anyway. They were also veering into a long, drawn out conversation (through no fault of your own, I hasten to add), so I (well Michael, but I was about to) deleted them.

The one about questions specific to Ubuntu seemed pretty clear to me.

If I had more characters in the comment the first one would have been more elaborated, though

@MichaelHomer Heh, that's the one that made me think you considered Ubuntu off topic. You have to admit, it does seem to suggest exactly that:

> @JdeBP: No, it isn't. Ubuntu questions are already explicitly off-topic now, as noted in the help centre. – Michael Homer Nov 18 at 3:21

But never mind. Comments have been cleared, I now know that you don't think Ubuntu is off topic, and all's well with the world. Plus, we're getting hats soon!

In fact the first comment mentions questions that are "either general or using something else" as suitable for the tag here.

Context is important, as ever.

Shouldn't hats have started already? I thought it was December 1st

Well there is a countdown, but it's completely blank

19th

0

Q: Are hats in fashion this year?

Last year, Stack Exchange ran Winter Bash 2015, in which users earned hats which they proudly displayed upon their gravatar. There was a leaderboard of hatters, mad or not: It's that time of the year again and we get to choose whether we want to do it this time around. Because of the popularit...

discussion featured winterbash-2016

6:18 PM

winterbash2016.stackexchange.com

Bah.

Maybe it only works on IE

There's no code in there that would actually do anything. It loads the CDN JQuery, but that's it

It's just a blank page here, in Chrome and Firefox.

Server-side browser sniffing, obviously. And now we know @terdon browses with IE since it works for him :-P

@derobert Are you trying to get yourself suspended?

@MichaelHomer It's super seeecret code for windows devs only, man!

@terdon :-P Do I get a badge for that? Or a hat?

6:24 PM

You might have to settle for something in between the two. A bat, perhaps :P

Better put on a hard had first...

I just tried Edge, then. Still nothing

I bet different results could be obtained in IE 5.5 on XP. Not better, just different.

@terdon I remote desktop'd into an XP machine and tried IE 8, amazingly got the same results.

Somewhere, I have a Windows 3.11 VM...

@terdon so, do we take questions like this one: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/327632/… ? I'm guessing that's actually off-topic here...

6:32 PM

@derobert Yes. For example, a tea cup in another room might suddenly explode.

@MichaelHomer Can you get Netscape 0.9 running on it to test? :-P

Or maybe NCSA Mosaic?

Although I hope there is a non-HTTPS version... or it's not going to work.

@derobert Damn. I honestly don't know. My personal preference would be to avoid WSL questions altogether, but that doesn't seem to be the community's stance. I really don't know enough about it to judge whether that's an issue on the windows or *nix side.

@MichaelHomer?

I'm guessing OP has run in to this: blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2016/11/17/… .... but I've never actually used WSL, so no idea.

@derobert I'm not sure the network works, actually, so it's probably not useful

Yeah, it's what derobert said in the comments

Sounds like it, yes.

Anyway, hafta run. Later, all.

6:40 PM

It might be "can't be reproduced", but otherwise it seems ok to me

I suspect that's going to be a common problem

So it'd be good to get an answer to dupe them to

today I did wifi de-authentication attack onto my phone using aircrack-ng. But I'm a little worried if I do this on my friend, will he come to know the source mac address de-authenticating him again and again provided he is investigating through wireshark?

@user334283 Probably not the right audience here

and an off-topic question also..I'll search somewhere else

@MichaelHomer I put an answer unix.stackexchange.com/a/327635/977 ... but of course that's all from reading the blog post, as I haven't actually used WSL.

I'm happy to community-wiki that if others want to contribute

I might try to write a canonical question for that problem. Things can get a bit weird.

7:00 PM

@MichaelHomer Sure. I'd also suggest if/when you write the answer, note a few of the Linux editors, might be easier than copying the file back and forth. Our editors are clearly better anyway :-P

(I'd note some in my answer... but I dare not do so without actually having tested it to be sure it works well.)

Interesting bug: I flagged a first post as spam in the review queue, that automatically downvoted it. Then I downvoted it again. I got to vote down twice on it, and it appears the -2 I gave it actually stuck.

Die, spam, die!

@derobert not a bug: the score of a post is (count(upvotes) - count(downvotes) - count(validated or pending spam/offensive flags))

Ah, by design then.

BTW: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/128220/… if you want to help spam flag it to death

@terdon I don't know the context (link?) but if you're talking about Unix & Linux, I don't see how “Ubuntu questions are already explicitly off-topic now” could possibly be true

@Gilles They had a were discussing a very narrow meaning of "Ubuntu questions", as in questions specifically specifically and only about Ubuntu.

@derobert even so that wouldn't make the question off-topic

7:14 PM

@Gilles The help center seems to say otherwise: "Note that Ubuntu posts are a special case. If your question applies to Ubuntu only, or you're looking for answers that are Ubuntu-specific, you should post it on the Ask Ubuntu Stack Exchange site. If your question applies to other distros or you welcome more generic solutions, you're in the right place here."

@derobert “If your question applies to Ubuntu only” shouldn't be there.

we can migrate Ubuntu-specific questions to AU if the asker agrees, but we don't reject them as a matter of course

No, just tell them that they should post them there, and that they're not in the right place if it is Ubuntu-specific

Sounds like you need to post on meta to get that reworded.

It is a pretty odd exception to the general SE policy

19

Q: Migrate Ubuntu-specific questions to AskUbuntu?

There was a comment and a mod flag on this post about possibly asking the question on AU instead. I don't think our previous discussions on this have been particularly clear-cut, so I'm just going to ask directly: should we migrate questions that only apply to Ubuntu to AskUbuntu? I'm going to q...

discussion scope ubuntu

“extremely and unavoidably Ubuntu-centric, and cannot be generalized to other *nixes in any meaningful way” is more restrictive than “applies to Ubuntu only”, and even so I disagree that it makes the question off-topic.

More suitable on another site ≠ not suitable at all on this site

7:22 PM

I assume it's a Canonical-gives-us-money thing

@MichaelHomer ??? 1. I don't see what this has to do with U&L. 2. Canonical doesn't give money to SE, do they?

@Gilles Not sure if there is money involved, but isn't AskUbuntu their official support site? So there is some sort of arrangement.

@Gilles I believe AskUbuntu is an official support channel sponsored by Canonical, but I'm not certain of that

@derobert arrangement, yes. money, no, afaik

The usual "be jealous of your site" rule seems to have been discarded for this one case, so I presume there was some sort of influence to do so somewhere along the line

7:25 PM

Either way, I doubt it really matters to Ask Ubuntu—the number of questions we'd be migrating or not from here is tiny compared to their volume

20

A: Is Ask Ubuntu "official" Ubuntu?

Not directly. Ask Ubuntu is and always will be a community run website on the Stack Exchange network. From what I've gathered, Stack Exchange and Canonical have entered a trademark agreement to use the "Ubuntu" name in the URL, to my knowledge nothing else exists in that agreement that mandates ...

@MichaelHomer Why do you think that it's been discarded?

@Gilles Because it's written in the help centre

I'm pretty sure our help center custom text is written by our mods. I don't think the SE overlords did that.

It is, so the U&L moderators set it aside

It's just a very odd carve-out to me

Then it seems appropriate to ask it on Unix & Linux Meta, and also I suppose suggest we drop the "extremely and unavoidably Ubuntu-centric, and cannot be generalized to other *nixes in any meaningful way" if you want. I mean, that old question is 6yrs ago.

7:30 PM

Bizarrely, I am now failing to break WSL by editing its files

@MichaelHomer Hah, maybe your editor preserves those NTFS extended attributes or whatever they're called. OP said Notepad++

Also, I saw in a different MS post there is caching... so maybe you've broken it, but its still cached so you just don't know yet.

Caching is always fun like that!

I installed Notepad++ specifically because Notepad wasn't breaking it

Oh good. Yes, restarting BOUoW removes the file

Maybe it's a matter of save-over-existing-file vs save-to-new-then-move

@MichaelHomer Ah, another time to reference shouldiblamecaching.com

Notepad: fine. Notepad++: breaks, with a reload. cmd: breaks immediately

8:06 PM

Hello anybody in here familiar with kernel compilation?

I have some issues to compile my kernel. I think there is some bug with linux code.

I tried to describe my issue here: raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/58424/…

8:33 PM

@trilolil fs/ioctl.c:394:1: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault 99% means you've hit either a compiler bug (not likely, since it doesn't happen every time) or you have defective hardware (e.g., bad RAM)

@derobert my rpi comes straight from the shop...

shrug, manufacturing defects exist. There is a very small chance it's something else—easiest way to tell would be to try to reproduce on another pi

If it only happens on one pi, well, then it's defective

No idea if you've got swap enabled, if so that could also be a problem with your swap device (e.g., if the swap device is corrupting data). Or it could be a kernel bug in your running kernel (the kernel is randomly corrupting memory). But, really, 99% of the time it's broken hardware.

@derobert I did nothing else then unbox my rpi install raspbian jessie and follow that tutorial provided by rpi

I am going to install raspbian noobs in a few minuts to see what result that gives...

@derobert or that you've run out of RAM

@Gilles I'd expect that to be reproducible, though

8:39 PM

@Gilles already? I barely did anything.

also you'd get kernel messages about the OOM killer.

programs (including compilers) don't always cope with that gracefully when most of their users have a lot of RAM and swap

@trilolil you ran make -j4, that means you might have 4 instances of gcc, plus the rest of the OS

@trilolil do you have any out of memory messages in the kernel log (check, e.g., dmesg)

do you have swap?

@derobert maybe

right now I am executing this command: make -j4 zImage

I ll try to remake everything

and if that fails

dmesg

to see whether I see something fishy.

In stead of doing: make -j4 zImage modules dtbs
I broke it down in 3 parts.

I have to admit it already takes waaaay much longer that that one command all at once...

make -j4 zImage Has already been going on for 10 minuts or so

while -j4 zImage modules dtbs already gave me an error message after 2 minuts or so.

8:42 PM

@trilolil try make zImage

Parallel builds when you're short on RAM aren't such a good idea

the compiler instances are competing for RAM, that can make them a lot slower than if you run the compilation sequentially

@Gilles ok I could try that afterwards eventually.

@trilolil do you have swap?

@Gilles I don't know :/

I know what swap is though.

@trilolil Run free

ok guys! make -j4 zImage worked!

8:44 PM

hah, I guess gcc is one of those programs that segfaults if it runs out of RAM then :-(

total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 947740 884264 63476 10804 63196 653552

-/+ buffers cache: 167516 780224
Swap:102396 1892 100504

@trilolil so you have swap, but only a ridiculous amount

@Gilles actually I am planning to try to write image processing software for multiple cores. If building on multiple cores already fails, will that mean that running image processing algorithms on multiple cores will probably also fail?

Some sort of multicore software. Will be my first time. If I manage to get my system up and running!

@trilolil not necessarily, it depends how much memory you need

getting that linux stuff to work can be hell sometimes I see...

8:49 PM

Image processing may or may not require a lot of memory, it depends what you're doing

and image processing would usually be done on the GPU, not on the CPU

raspberry pi 3 was a requirement I didn't choose that.

@Gilles how doable do you think it is to write multicore software (on a rapsberry pi3) for someone who has never done that?

@trilolil Difficult. Concurrency is hard.

@Gilles My biggest fear actually is not about the programming itself but about being able to set up the raspberry pi kernel stuff correctly...

As you see I alreay encountered some difficulties 2 minuts ago.

@trilolil that's the easy part

I don't really worry about writing the software itself.

@Gilles good for me! :)

8:53 PM

@trilolil you should: that's the hard part

@Gilles I have done some stuff in multithreading. Does that count?

@trilolil yes

great!

9:14 PM

hello everyone^^

9:27 PM

@MichaelHomer It seems to me partly a consequence of the curious existence of AU - which is basically a proper subset of U&L.

@FaheemMitha Well, yes.

don't diss the site i mod lol

If it were AskKali, I wouldn't have any quibbles.

But there are good Ubuntu questions and it's odd that we migrate them away

At some point recently I closed this tab by accident. I had a vague feeling something was wrong, but it took me a while to realise what it was. I see I missed some conversation.

@ThomasWard No diss intended. At least not directly. But you must admit the coexistence of U&L and AU is curious.

True

but given that I'm also on the Ubuntu Server Team i'm biased towards the coexistence remaining :)

9:31 PM

Clearly AU isn't going anywhere. Nor is U&L. Unless SE shuts down completely, of course. Which could easily happen.

but you're not wrong.

it's an odd separation, though I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the ubuntu community on its own is massive, while a "generic" blanket coverage for other distros and such s less well-covered on its own.

The owners decide to sell. The new owners try to make SE a subscription site (or something equally insane). Voila - end of SE.

shrugs

@FaheemMitha wonder what the likelihood of that is though

everyone would be violently angry

especially SO people :P

I probably shouldn't prophesy doom and gloom at 3 am. Then again, it's the age of Trump. If I were a fundamentalist Christian, I'd say it was the End Times. Then again, if I was a fundamentalist Christian, I might like Trump.

SO and SE exist on tricking people into doing free labour for them

9:34 PM

@ThomasWard No idea. But it's definitely possible.

@MichaelHomer What is their profit model, again?

@ThomasWard Yes, we would all be very unhappy. Though I suspect a free alternative would quickly arise.

Advertisements on SO and job postings

@MichaelHomer Ah, ok. Careers SE?

@ThomasWard I don't know why two got created originally, but the two sites held votes on whether they wanted to merge. Ask Ubuntu voted against merging.

@FaheemMitha Not likely, they'd just put ads everywhere. Those annoying ones that interrupt what you're reading to pop up in the middle of the screen and make you try to tap a microscopic X button on your phone

@derobert Hmm. Perhaps.

But would that kill SE?

I don't know. Maybe Super User would survive. Windows folks have probably been conditioned to accept such BS. I mean, they deal with Windows after all...

9:38 PM

@derobert you could say the same thing about Android Enthusiasts

Oh, that site would thrive!

Especially if they added buying 100 rep for $1.

@FaheemMitha not in the sense of driving everybody away, but yes in the sense that most of the communities would shrivel

@derobert or, for Ask Different, 1 rep for $100

The stream of Google hits for programming questions is never going to dry up

SE has ads already. But I suppose they are relatively unobtrusive.

@MichaelHomer Hah, but does the hyphen site still exist?

9:40 PM

Hyphen site?

@derobert yes it does

but exist ≠ thrive

then again, I hadn't even heard of it before joining SE

Experts-Exchange

Experts-Exchange.com (EE) is a website for people in information technology (IT) related jobs to ask each other for tech help, receive instant help via chat, hire freelancers, and browse tech jobs. At Experts Exchange, users are awarded points for answering questions asked by other users or writing articles the general community values as resourceful. This results in a competition for obtaining more points to achieve various experts' certifications. The site offers a paid membership service that offers full access to those who primarily use the website to get their IT and tech questions solved...

Refered to as “hyphen site” because of how the name reads without the hyphen

Ah, those people. Quora seems quite popular, though.

@Gilles back when Google let you block sites from search results, it was the first site on my blocklist

It used to keep coming up when I was searching for something, which was very annoying as I wasn't about to fork over the $$ they wanted...

@FaheemMitha Quora at least doesn't ask for $. Not sure how many ads it has (yeah for Adblock)

I don't think Google has ever directed me to EE. But it gives me lots of hits to Quora.

I don't get many Quora links from Google.

9:45 PM

Probably depends on ones query.

It seems to be quite popular in India. Unlike SE.

SE probably has too much structure for India. Indians don't like rules. And/or don't understand them.

But haven't you all been practicing standing in line (or is it queuing over there?) at the bank?

Quora is particularly noticeable when I post India specific queries.

@derobert With the demonetization thing? Not me, at least. But yes, India has been wasting a zillion man-hours thanks to it's insane Prime Minister.

Just curious, has anyone here been paying any attention to the demonetization thing?

Stack Overflow apparently gets plenty of traffic from Bangalore. At least it sounded that way from the recent blog post.

@derobert They consume. They don't write so much, I think.

Though I've not looked at stats. There are probably plenty of low rep Indian users.

@FaheemMitha The attention of "it happened".

9:49 PM

Site Analytics doesn't have a country breakdown, unfortunately.

I do know that I (relatively) rarely come across high quality answers written by Indians.

@FaheemMitha Just what shows up on BBC News.

We do have a few high rep Indian users on U&L. And one of the biology mods is Indian.

@MichaelHomer, @derobert: Yes, that's what I figured.

It's probably interesting for economists.

I'm so far behind on all my econ feeds that I'm not sure....

economics.stackexchange.com/questions/14305/… (with no answer)

@derobert You have econ feeds?

9:52 PM

@FaheemMitha yep, bunch of blogs

Ah. Selected by you?

yes

(who else would select what blogs you read????)

Well, I guess unless you were following them for work or something

@derobert your boss. or Them.

Well, so far not even the Orange Menace has suggested requiring everyone to follow him on Twitter. Actually, he'd probably be better off forbidding everyone from doing so...

So much for Them.

@derobert There are blog aggregators. E.g. Planets.

9:58 PM

Ah, ok. But you pick whether you want to read that or not.

For example, I follow Planet Debian sporadically.

And e.g. Planet Lisp even more sporadically.

10:18 PM

So, I've been doing some reading about Trump. For Americans who feel like answering, how horrified, on a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 means neutral, and 10 means 100 foot high tsunami approaching, are the people you know?

I'm around 7.5, and I don't live in the US.

Everyone that I know seems to be over it.

@AaronHall Over it?

Resigned to the reality.

Nobody that I take seriously is freaking out.

2

We have separation of powers. Congress writes the law and makes the budgets. The Supreme Court has judicial oversight. The president gets to make appointments and has executive authority and has an overridable veto, and the vice president gets to break ties in the Senate.

10:42 PM

All nice in theory. None of that stopped the Iraq war. Not to mention a host of other bad things.

Agora

General discussion for politics.stackexchange.com

^^^^^^^^ If you want to talk politics, this is probably the most appropriate place to do it

@AaronHall Not specially. But thanks for the tip.

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