Falatório

tchrist

02:34

@ANeves I think they’ve misunderstood. :)

Luís Vaz de Camões

09:29

0

Q: Tornar-se vs Ficar

I am a native English speaker, and I have been learning Portuguese for just over 1 year. However, I am confused as regards the difference between the verbs 'Tornar-se' and 'Ficar', when saying "become". For example: "Ele FICOU contente depois de ouvir as boas notícias" = He BECAME pleased after...

Luís Vaz de Camões

10:32

0

Q: Pode-se escrever "ambos são aceitos"?

É correto escrever "ambos são aceitos"? Numa pergunta neste site vi as seguintes frases: Qual é o correto? Ambos são aceitos? Eu esperaria ambos são aceites, e essa é a forma a que estou habituado. Em algumas situações ouço também usar aceitado ("não tinha aceitado o pedido"). Mas o dicion...

forma-verbal

ANeves

Alguém me ajuda com as tags desta pergunta?
Eu ia pôr "gramática", mas o @tchrist queixou-se no meta (e queixou-se muito bem) dessa tag ser demasiado genérica. («Let’s choose more informative tags than “grammar” whenever possible»)

Jorge B.

11:00

@ANeves talvez concordância?

ANeves

Concordância com quê?
A pergunta é "é correto usar 'aceito' como particípio passado de aceitar'. Que tem isso a ver com com concordância?

ah

concordância com o "ambos"...

bolas, que surpreendente

Math

11:27

@JorgeB. aquele seu link não responde essa dúvida? portuguese.stackexchange.com/q/483/3

ela parece ser a única sem resposta até então (dentre as que estão abertas), poderia respondê-la para ficarmos com 100% respondidas :)

tchrist

11:49

@ANeves Escolha das palavras? Gramaticalidade? Diferenças transatlânticas? Formalidade?

Jorge B.

12:29

@Math qual link?

Math

@JorgeB. co.it.pt/~labfala/g2p

Jorge B.

@Math fiz lá um comentário.

tchrist

Maybe Flimsy was looking for a dictionary that showed (for example) both versions of molho.

ANeves

13:03

Gramaticalidade parece-me bem.

Mas os dicionários têm ambas as versões. Quando há diferenças, têm notas sobre a maneira de dizer.

Por exemplo, priberam.pt/dlpo/molho tem uma entrada com |ó| e uma com |ô|.

tchrist

Ah.

Existe uma classe mais ampla desses adjetivos que tomam duas formas, uma com -o/-a (talvez em algumas partes do mundo) e outra com -e (talvez em outras partes)?

ANeves

14:09

@tchrist isso é uma pergunta? Se sim: eu não sei.

tchrist

15:03

@ANeves Não queixei-me de nada, mas sim apenas reflexionei. :)

ANeves

E reflexionaste muito bem. :)

brazilianldsjaguar

15:50

Meu, não sei se consegui me explicar bem aqui nessa pergunta ... qq coisa estou aqui pra esclarecer! :D

0

Q: What's the rule for pronouncing similarly-spelt verb conjugations?

Recently, while reading through a book written in extremely formal Portuguese, I came across this line: Ó, meus amados irmãos, ouvi minhas palavras. The word in question here is ouvi. Normally when I see this word, it is in this context: Eu ouvi o que você falou. I understand the diff...

gramática pronúncia

Luís Vaz de Camões

0

Q: What's the rule for pronouncing similarly-spelt verb conjugations?

Recently, while reading through a book written in extremely formal Portuguese, I came across this line: Ó, meus amados irmãos, ouvi minhas palavras. The word in question here is ouvi. Normally when I see this word, it is in this context: Eu ouvi o que você falou. I understand the diff...

gramática pronúncia

tchrist

16:20

@ANeves I think he's just not familiar with the stress patterns of the old vós imperatives.

ANeves

Pareceu-me clara, a pergunta.

Jorge B.

@ANeves és de Lisboa?

ANeves

Hmm... @tchrist you know what? I kind of agree. I deleted my answer; I think someone will contribute something much better.

Jorge B.

Aqui em Braga dizemos ouvi e não ovi.

ANeves

@JorgeB. não, carago.

Jorge B.

16:22

@ANeves e dizes ovi?

ANeves

@JorgeB. não, digo /'oubi/.

Jorge B.

As vezes sinto que vivo noutro país diferente do teu e do @Jacinto

@ANeves Ah ou ouvi se puseres o sotaque de lado.

tchrist

If he's reading something very old, with imperatives like falai/comei/abri vós, then this won't make sense to him based on most training materials, which are poor in covering Camões, or at least preparing you for it.

ANeves

@JorgeB. Possivelmente. Ou será mais tipo "ôvi"? Nunca sei.

tchrist

Should be ouvi vós. I think he just doesn't know that the old 2nd-person plural imperatives have stress at the end.

ANeves

16:27

@tchrist in... 1995-2000 I learned the verbs with "eu tu ele nós vós eles". Vós feels absolutely archaic and is rarely used (except for northern mountainous regions), but we still learned it.

tchrist

So did I, but I have seen a lot of training materials for North Americans for Brazilian that don't even have tu in them, let alone vós.

Jorge B.

@ANeves "ôvi" é lisboeta como "tô" em vez de "tou" ao telefone. mas o certo é "ouvi" mesmo.

ANeves

:)

tchrist

The Argentines speak a form a Spanish with singular vos imperatives that end in a stressed vowel, and they use those instead of tu. vos hablá/comé/viví.

ANeves

@tchrist but even if they did not learn the vós imperative, a syllable with -i should always take accent, unless there is another syllable with an explicit accent mark. No?

tchrist

16:34

Absolutely. That's how Portuguese works.

Anything ending in -i or -u is stressed at the end if not otherwise marked.

ANeves

I meant in the beginning or middle as well, like ilha and pilha.

tchrist

There is doesn't matter, because the final -a means the stress is one back from there.

Jacinto

17:03

Cá estou

Jorge B.

@Jacinto persuponho que o @ANeves apagou a resposta por causa do ov'i.

Vê a nossa discussão acima ^^^^

Jacinto

Não faço ideia, a resposta dele estava correta

Já vi

Tudo o que disseram, lamento ser tão cru, é irrelevante

"Ouvi" do pretérito perfeito e "ouvi" do imperativo são pronunciadas da mesma maneira

Tal comoe "ouve" do presente e "ouve" do imperativo

Jorge B.

Sim óbvio. E pronuncia-se como?

Mas não sei porque ele apagou só o @ANeves pode dizer.

Jacinto

"Ouvi" é acentuada na última sílaba

é a única coisa que interessa

tchrist

Agree. :)

Jacinto

17:08

Depois, nós no sul pronunciamos o "ou" como "ô"

tchrist

Wish we knew the asker's background.

Jacinto

No norte creio que o "ou" é mesmo "ou", mas é sempre igual para os dois "ouvi"

Yes, because it's the simple luzir rule that applies to that word

tchrist

No sul como apenas no Algarve, o em Lisboa também?

Jacinto

Em Lisboa

o ditongo "ou" foi reduzido na fala a "ô"

tchrist

I've spent more time in Lisboa than anywhere else lusofalante, so I just thought everybody did that. :)

Jorge B.

17:11

@Jacinto no norte pronuncia-se "oubi" mas quem fala, por exemplo, numa apresentação diz "ouvi".

Jacinto

so now we know

tchrist

@JorgeB. I have that problem. I'm trying to fight it. :)

Jacinto

fight what?

tchrist

The annoying b for v thing.

Jorge B.

@Jacinto ia perguntar a mesma coisa.

tchrist

17:13

I still think our asker is just confused about the existence and morphology of vós imperatives.

Jorge B.

@tchrist No norte usamos "b" em vez de "v" e também como "b". Ou seja, "baca" (de vaca), "boi" (de boi), etc.

Jacinto

I like de "oubis" "binhos" and all that

Jorge B.

yes

tchrist

@JorgeB. The "A Coruña" accent.

Jacinto

Although that's not really that what makes the nothern accent cute

Jorge B.

17:15

@tchrist Coruña from Spain?

tchrist

@Jacinto Tell tell tell!

Jacinto

it's more the longer vowels

tchrist

@JorgeB. The Galego accent.

Jacinto

like the "ou"

And the "O quêea?"

Jorge B.

"pueeerto" (porto), "ouuuubiste" (ouviste)

tchrist

17:16

So the full ê on que.

So it sounds more Spanish and less French?

Jacinto

"O quêea, nõou ouço o que tás a dizeear, carago"

tchrist

Reminds me of the way people in the Deep South of the United States lengthen their vowels.

Jorge B.

@Jacinto Ainda é complicadito representar a fala do norte, mas essa fala é na verdade do Porto só.

Jacinto

That's cute too

Que deceção!

tchrist

@JorgeB. So it's urban not rural too?

Jacinto

17:18

Nõou, caraago. Em Biaanaa doo Castelo tambéem dizeem o quêea!

Jorge B.

@tchrist yes urban and rural.

tchrist

@brazilianldsjaguar was last seen 20 minutes ago. Maybe he will come back so we can get clarification.

Jorge B.

@Jacinto De certeza? Em braga não usamos muito isso. Nem sei bem como definir o sotaque Bracarense.

Jacinto

Mas eu tive um aluno de Viana do Castelo e ele dizia o quêea e

Jorge B.

@Jacinto Se calhar eu também uso e nem reparo, mas com certeza não será tão carregado como no porto.

Jacinto

17:23

@tchrist I loved Lucas Black in Crazy in Alabam

tchrist

I don't always understand people from Alabama.

Jacinto

@tchrist Well, then I guess his accent as not to thick, in the movie at least

I don't think I'd understand anything that you wouldn't

tchrist

I meant real people not movies. )

Jacinto

I suppose they soften it in movies

tchrist

That or subtitles. :)

Jacinto

17:27

he'se the man

here's, I meant

tchrist

"There are no one-syllable words in Southern."

Jacinto

lol

tchrist

Ye-es. Nã-ou.

Hour is ou-wa.

Jacinto

no "H"?

of course no "h"

lol

tchrist

Mã–ãyum for maam.

brazilianldsjaguar

17:29

Oi gente

tchrist

Ahah!

brazilianldsjaguar

rsrs, obrigado pela conversa aqui ...

tchrist

The prodigal cat has returned.

brazilianldsjaguar

@tchrist My background: American that learned Portuguese while living in Brazil on an evangelical mission

The text I was reading? Scripture

Jacinto

that explains the vós

tchrist

17:30

That will use vós forms in some translations.

Yup.

brazilianldsjaguar

Yes, it's heavily used

And I understand it, gramatically ...

tchrist

So the vós imperatives always have stress at the end.

brazilianldsjaguar

But my wife (from São Paulo) was pronouncing it (and telling me it should be pronounced) with the emphasis on the first syllable

tchrist

That way they contrast with the tu imperatives.

brazilianldsjaguar

Ahhh, that's a good way to explain it

Jacinto

17:31

Do you know the rule "LUZIR"?

tchrist

It is unwise to contradict one's wife. :)

brazilianldsjaguar

@Jacinto não, conheço não

@tchrist Which is why I asked the question ;)

Jacinto

words ending with those letters are stressed in the last syllable, if they don't have an accent, ´ or ^ or ~ elsewhere

brazilianldsjaguar

yes -- @Jacinto this is the rule which I learned

Jacinto

it applies to ouvi

it doesn't matter whether it's a verb or what mode or person

brazilianldsjaguar

17:34

Which is what I thought, but it just "sounded" weird (to my wife and I) when reading it out loud

But if it's correct, my notion of how it sounds should be corrected

And the "aceitação" of the fact that "ouvi" is not only past perfect, but also imperitive

tchrist

brazilianldsjaguar

I think that's my biggest problem, is the lack of familiarity with the vós form

Jacinto

but it's the same with "ele ouve" and imperative "ouve" (tu)

brazilianldsjaguar

(not familiarity with spelling or conjugation, as I see them -- but just of hearing them pronoucned)

tchrist

There are very few people who still use vós.

Jacinto

17:36

that's true

brazilianldsjaguar

@Jacinto Agreed -- I guess what I'm trying to say is I've never heard "ouvi" in the vós context.

tchrist

About the same number as those who in English still use thou.

brazilianldsjaguar

So to me it sounds like I'm saying the first-person past perfect

Jacinto

I think I've learned the "vós" at church

I undestand

brazilianldsjaguar

All the tu and vós I've learned is in the scriptures :p

tchrist

17:37

If you spend time in Argentina though, you'll get used to it. :)

Jacinto

they use both?

tchrist

They basically only use vos not tu. And it's singular not plural. They're weird.

brazilianldsjaguar

And other slightly-off constructs, such as: feri-los-á

tchrist

Slightly off?

Jacinto

so, like "you" in English?

tchrist

17:38

Oh I see.

brazilianldsjaguar

@tchrist Sounds like the use of você in Brazil

tchrist

@Jacinto Yes.

Jacinto

yes! that's definily very weird!

tchrist

@brazilianldsjaguar No, it's 2nd person not 3rd person. vos comés in indicative, vos comé in imperative.

brazilianldsjaguar

@tchrist ... well, você is also 2nd person

tchrist

17:39

They are nice people though so we absolve them. :)

brazilianldsjaguar

Oh but the way you conjugate

Jacinto

I think in former times you'd address royalty like that in Portugal tu

brazilianldsjaguar

I see

tchrist

No, você is 3rd person.

@Jacinto Exactly!

Jacinto

você is the so-called indirect second person

brazilianldsjaguar

17:40

used like 2nd person but conjugated like 3rd

Jacinto

but it's third person grammatically

exactly

brazilianldsjaguar

My teachers had a fun time explaining that ;)

Jacinto

In former times I talk to you like this

Has Your Mercy had a nice journey

?

tchrist

Yes, that's third person as you see.

Jacinto

As if I was talkint to you about your mercy, so it would be "it"

Your Mercy = Vossa Mercê > vossemecê > você

tchrist

17:43

Catalan has vostè from vostra mercè.

Same thing.

Jacinto

third person too?

tchrist

Yes.

brazilianldsjaguar

Uau

Never knew that @Jacinto!

Jacinto

I'm a native speaker

tchrist

Well, I knew it. :)

brazilianldsjaguar

17:44

Well, so is my wife ... but we won't go there ;)

tchrist

But all three Iberian 3rd-person polite forms followed the same route.

Jacinto

I've heard people using vossemecê

ANeves

@JorgeB. Apaguei por causa do /'ovi/ (não sei corrigir bem o IPA para o que quero) e por achar a resposta fraquita. Alguém há-de responder melhor. :p

Jacinto

live, not in movies

brazilianldsjaguar

I believe that, in courts and other formal settings, vossa exelência is still used, correct?

Jacinto

17:45

Vossa Excelência is

ANeves

( :24287802 note that ~ is technically not an accent. :p )

brazilianldsjaguar

In English we use "Your Honor", which I guess would be "Vossa Honra"?

Jacinto

I know that

it would be that, but we never used it, I think as a form of address

brazilianldsjaguar

Obrigado gente pelas respostas!

E pelas explicações!

tchrist

I never know what pronouns to use in South America without hanging out there a while. Every region has its own preferences.

Jacinto

17:47

sempre às ordens

brazilianldsjaguar

Saio hoje sabendo muito mais. :D

ANeves

Um pouco mais, não tanto assim... :)

brazilianldsjaguar

... and sai is one syllable while saí is two, right?

ANeves

Yes, the accent breaks the diphtong.

Jacinto

exactly

brazilianldsjaguar

17:49

Perfect :D

ANeves

Like "ai" and "aí".

Jacinto

yup

brazilianldsjaguar

Many times I see sai used in the context of saí

But in the context of things like text messages and emails

e.g. little things like accents are easily ignored/forgotten

ANeves

In Brazil it sounds the same... I see a *lot* of these mistakes in pt.SE that I would not see from Portuguese people.
I guess that it happens vice-versa. :)

Jacinto

well, if would use hardly any accents before I went to university

brazilianldsjaguar

17:51

Spelling mistakes on pt.SE? Impocível!!

;)

ANeves

* impoçível

brazilianldsjaguar

hehehehe

Jacinto

And I would mispronounce words like "queiramos"

ANeves

18:06

How? Tonic syllable (queiramos)?

Jacinto

quêiramos

Um professor corrigiu-me

ANeves

É curioso, este assunto das sílabas tónicas.
Os franceses pôem sempre a sílaba tónica no fim...
E os italianos tendem para as esdrúxulas.

Jacinto

mas no francês a sílaba tónica é pouco tónica

ANeves

Talvez; mas quando falam outras línguas, hon hon hon, nota-se logo! :)

Jorge B.

18:46

@brazilianldsjaguar "your honor" it's like "vossa senhoria" or in court of law "vossa excelência".

Corrijam me se tiver errado

Jacinto

They can be used in the same circumstances, but "vossa senhoria" is more like "your lordship/ladydship"

Jorge B.

Obrigado pela correção @Jacinto

Jacinto

usavam-se essas "lordship" e "ladyship" nos tempos do Dickens

mesmo no século XX - reviver o passado em Brideshead

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