Language Overflow

12:51 AM

@snailboat @CopperKettle I think we can't really put that there, unless we want a different meaning. I haven't really read the sentence, or the comments, but I think I read the sentence differently from stangdon and StoneyB. (Reading it differently from two native speakers who've got many upvotes in their comments could be worrying!)

> It could also mean that Putin still hopes to be part of a larger coalition in Syria, or that he still wants a role in whatever Western diplomatic effort might eventually bring the war to an end.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/74417/3281

I read it as: It could mean [that A], or [that B] might eventually bring the war to an end.

I'm sure I'd want to reread that again soon.

snailboat

@DamkerngT. I think it would be strange putting that there.

Damkerng T.

I haven't checked the context, but that was how I would read it at first sight.

BTW, good evening!

snailboat

In Given the alternatives is a weird way to begin a sentence. This doesn't look like it was carefully proofread.

Good evening!

> It could also mean
> 　[that Putin still hopes to be part of a larger coalition in Syria],
> or (it could also mean)
> 　[that he still wants a role in whatever Western diplomatic effort might eventually bring the war to an end].

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods (I just had a look at the original: it's written like that.)

Hmm... parsing it like that, I think that before might would be fine.

snailboat

whatever Western diplomatic effort might eventually bring the war to an end is a free relative (what CGEL calls a fused relative), essentially a relative clause that is functionally similar to a noun phrase.

See CGEL p.1068

tchrist

1:02 AM

Diplomacy leads to free relatives; who knew?

Damkerng T.

Now the problem is whether or not adding that before might is really fine.

Come to think of it, I think CookieMonster posted a similar question (but maybe it's not obvious that they're similar) earlier this year.

I'm pretty sure that I practically won't be able to find it if I search.

snailboat

@DamkerngT. Well, I still don't think you can really insert that there.

You can get some other opinions :-)

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks for the feedback anyway. :D

Hmm...

I just noticed that in all examples on CGEL p.1068, whatevers stand for the objects in subordinate clauses.

I guess I thought whatever X that sounds plausible (and probably CookieMonster though the same but had a stronger feeling: that it's mandatory) because our whatever is the subject of the subordinate clause.

> a) I like whatever moves.
b) I like whatever that moves.

tchrist

1:23 AM

*anything

Mitch

@snailboat or they might be considered theorems with the most trivial of proofs

or they could be nontrivial theorems in another system (that has other axioms)

Damkerng T.

But isn't an axiom "just is"?

Mitch

yes.

but an arbitrary choice.

Damkerng T.

nods

Mitch

not totally arbitrary (one chooses them based on experience about where is the best place to stop).

but one can come to doubt them (in the sense that the axiom choice doesn't reflect what you want or doesn't fit the application)

Damkerng T.

5:36 AM

BTW, have you heard about many editions of Fowler's book?

> 1926: First irascible version of Fowler's "Dictionary of Modern English Usage" published. Owing to the author's idiosyncrasies and clear-headed prescriptions, it earns a place on every writer's shelf.

1965: An new edition comes out, edited by Sir Ernest Gowers. Most people believe Gowers only brought the language up-to-date where absolutely necessary, keeping the spirit of the original intact. In other words, this revision was hailed as welcome and necessary.

1996: Massive overhaul of the text published, edited by the famous Robert W. Burchfield. Burchfield thoroughly changes the langua…

Now I'm confused which one I should buy!

I remember that some say 3rd is the best, but now I'm not sure.

snailboat

I don't know that much about the different editions

Damkerng T.

2

Q: Is the adjective or noun form of 'pathogen' needed in this phrase?

Is the adjective or noun form of 'pathogen' needed in this phrase: Seed-borne fungal pathogen infection on the rice crop is an interesting subject of research. Pathogen or pathogenic? "Seedborne pathogenic fungi can greatly affect seed quality and cause diseases that impact seedling produc...

These alternate pairs could be another big problem for learners.

I'm not sure which to use myself at times!

snailboat

6:00 AM

The OP's comment and edit make the question unclear to me.

Damkerng T.

My guess: Seed-borne pathogenic fungus infection

Damkerng T.

6:20 AM

0

Q: What are the differences between the usage of words that end with "ing" and those which do not?

To my knowledge, when native speakers are using gerunds as a noun, they would prefer words that end with "-ment" rather than those that end with "ing." Is it just a personal preference, or a grammatical phenomenon? Specifically, can the suffix "-ing" add some subtle meanings to a word in English...

word-usage

Another challenging subject. Everything that is related to choices or alternatives is always challenging. It's difficult to explain how, why, or just even what is the right choice.

Probably too-broad, but someone may be able to come up with a rule of thumb.

snailboat

6:44 AM

Derivation is much less regular than inflection.

Verbs have an -ing inflection, and nouns can be productively derived from this form.

But often, we already have a noun corresponding to a verb.

Sometimes the existence of that noun in the lexicon blocks the production of a new one.

Or, sometimes we might say the new form is possible but less idiomatic than the established one.

The -ment suffix is a less productive way of deriving nouns, but we've already got a bunch of them in the lexicon pre-formed.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think -tion is probably more common than -ment nouns.

snailboat

Also, once something is in the lexicon, it can take on its own meaning and usage, and that meaning can shift.

Sometimes we can derive a new noun from the same verb in a different way, but we end up using the two nouns differently.

At any rate, deriving nouns from the -ing form of a verb is really very productive. I think you can find some discussion in CGEL in Chapter 19.

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the pointer!

snailboat

CGEL focuses much more on syntax than morphology, though that's to be expected, given how much more syntax than morphology English has.

Damkerng T.

(A funny set of derivatives: condiment, condition, conditioning, conditioner. :-)

snailboat

6:50 AM

Page 1702

Oh, I wouldn't have thought of condiment as related

Hmm, looks like they come from different roots

Damkerng T.

Well, I usually think of condiments as conditioners for food. :P

snailboat

Con- is the same! :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, interesting pairs: completion/completing, postponement/postponing, removal/removing

I think we have more pairs/sets that each derivative will have a different meaning than the pairs/sets that each derivative could be used interchangeably.

1

Q: What's the deciding factor for which form of a word you choose before the word "skill"?

I wanted to tell my friend that I had skills in persuading people. I stood for 5 minutes just thinking whether I should say "persuading skills", "persuasive skills", or "persuasion skills". To decide which one to use, I went searching online dictionaries, and it just created further confusion. ...

grammar word-choice

It's compounding!

Damkerng T.

7:16 AM

4

Q: Why is my plaster covered ceiling magnetic?

tldr; Why do magnets stick to my ceiling? I have an old house, built in 1905 in the Boston area. I want to install a light fixture in a room that does not currently have one. I tried using my stud finder to find the joists, but it proved futile. I switched to trying to use some neodymium magnet...

ceiling

Interesting question! But I think he meant metallic rather than magnetic in the title.

snailboat

It sounds to me like they meant magnetic.

> tldr; Why do magnets stick to my ceiling?

But!

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