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2:00 AM
in ELL's Cabin, 2 hours ago, by snailboat
> The trick is, rather than cultivating the desire to be right, to cultivate the desire to become right and remain so. That way, when you find out that you were wrong, instead of being crushed, you are elated because you were wrong but have now become right.
in ELL's Cabin, 2 hours ago, by snailboat
> And because you're elated, you then rush off to tell your nearest and dearest that whereas previously you were wrong, you are now right, and isn't that amazing? And of course that totally overrides any recollection of how obstinately and vehemently you were sticking to your incorrect opinion before.
I think I'm gonna keep spelling it Whoa!, though. :-)
But that's why my "probably ungrammatical" (or "probably incorrect") basket is rather big. Probably doesn't mean totally, or even really.
2:34 AM
Another pair that could sound similar, like "night rain" and "night train": "end her" and "enter".
3:19 AM
An interesting expression, your figure (or body shape) is healthy. Can our body shape is healthy?
I just heard someone speak in Thai, ช่วยให้รูปร่างคุณ healthy, and it's odd. It's not only odd because they use "healthy" in Thai unnecessarily, but it's because it implies that the body shape is healthy, rather than a person, which is rather strange in Thai. (E.g., เคล็ดลับที่ช่วยให้คุณมีรูปร่างดี สุขภาพดี is common, เคล็ดลับที่ช่วยให้รูปร่างคุณมีสุขภาพดี is weird, imo.)
(This is exactly the kind of "less elegant" usage, when I think of language usage.)
I guess healthy with body figure/shape could sound more natural in English, considering that even food can be healthy.
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. A lot of Germans are thinkers, too. And most are quite humble, imho. :-)
4:19 AM
Q: Past tenses: did/had questions

Leos LiterakWhich one is correct? TilesView had consumed complete screen until I overriden onMeasure(). TilesView consumed complete screen until I had overriden onMeasure().

Perhaps the most interesting question on the main page.
I think these are all possible, and each implies a subtly different meaning.
> a) TilesView had occupied the the entire screen until I overrode onMeasure().
> b) TilesView had been occupying the the entire screen until I overrode onMeasure().
> c) TilesView occupied the the entire screen until I had overridden onMeasure().
> d) TilesView was occupying the the entire screen until I had overridden onMeasure().
I think it's similar (still not exactly the same) with the OP's choice of verb: consume.
Q: Gerund and its meaning in the sentence, being positioned at the end of the sentence

Cihangir ÇamI came across this sentence while watching a video on youtube. They learn to read and write the formal English of textbooks,but get very little training listening to -and speaking- causal,conversational,spoken english. What puzzles me here is what sort of connection exists between "get very...

Something just hit me...
The opposite would also be true:
For people who learn to listen to, to speak spoken English, they could get very little training in formal English.
LOL -- I wondered why Ellen pronounced Segway as "swag-way" a few days ago. Now I know. It was because Swagway is real: swagway.com.
3 hours later…
7:16 AM
I really don't know how to put this :( But if I paraphrase "Will stretch like kilo-stones or cypresses" to "Will stretch like a fly(next shell) or tortoise(from eighteen on to eighty)." Can it be? BTW +1 to both the answers, I agree 99% with both the answers, it's just the use of hyphen that's making me think of this weird assumption. :D — Usernew 1 min ago
I just don't understand what he means..
I think I can guess. @CopperKettle -- It seems like he thought of "kilo" and "stone" as two separate words.
I'm glad that the OP didn't ask about the meaning of "Will stretch like kilo-stones or cypresses". Lit. crit. is off-topic on ELL, iirc.
@DamkerngT. "will stretch like kilograms to stones or cypresses"? Ain't makes no sense to me.
nods -- His attempt doesn't really work, imho.
Kilograms cannot stretch to cypresses.
Ah, he's an Indian guy. I thought he was a native speaker.
His English is surely above average!
7:21 AM
Talking about too and either and thinking of negative-polarity items makes me realize that some sentences don't work with either too or either.
> A: "I thought you liked cheese. I like all kinds of cheese!"
B1: "You thought I liked any cheese?"
> B2: "You thought I liked any cheese, too?"
> B3: "You thought I liked any cheese, as well?"
> B4: "You thought I liked any cheese, either?"
Hmm... B2 and B3 could probably work.
4 hours later…
11:34 AM
The LOLCat Bible Translation Project is a wiki-based website set up in July 2007 by Martin Grondin, where editors aim to parody the entire Bible in "LOLspeak", the slang popularized by the LOLcat Internet phenomenon. The project relies on contributors to adapt passages. As of March 27, 2008, approximately 61% of the text had been adapted, and Grondin had stated that he hopes the entire New Testament would be complete by the end of 2008. A book version of the website was released in 2010, containing selected extracts such as the stories of the creation of the earth, Adam and Eve, and Noah. ��2...
"Ceiling Cat sended Gabriowl, a hovr d00d, to Nazareth (dat is a citi in Galilee)27 to a virgn naemd Mary. She wuz engajded to a d00d naemd Joseph.28 Gabriowl wuz liek "O hai Mary, u iz realli nice. Ceiling Cat iz wif u."29 Mary wuz kiend of worrid about dat.30 But teh hovr d00d wuz all "Doant be afraid. Ceiling Cat iz happi wif u."
1 hour later…
1:00 PM
Q: The usage of "on time" vs "in time"

Dinesh Kumar GargWhich one is correct ─ "on time" or "in time"? Are both correct? If so, when is one or the other used? This has been very confusing to me. I have tried to thrash out a simple rule when one or the other could be used: "in time" could be used when you are able to take a one-off action (say "x") wit...

I think it's better to focus only on situational scenarios, as the OP seems to think about (in the first few sentences).
Trying to cover too many things could result in less focused and not as good answers. The OP's idea that there should be a simple rule is probably not helpful anyway. Both expressions are more flexible than that.
For example, consider this quote from Man of Steel: But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
I think there are too many learners who are looking for false rules.
1:15 PM
'Coming there?' sounds absolutely okay to me! — Maulik V ♦ 17 mins ago
Hmm... really?
Well, okay, it's clear that at least one Indian speaker thinks it's absolutely okay in Indian English.
But what about standard English?
Or the major dialects of English?
I think using come with there may be possible in some other contexts, but perhaps not this one, the one in the meaning of: Are you going to go/come there?
+1. This exactly defines why there's no preposition. I remember even tough one where 'home' serves as an adjective taking no preposition. This was news for me then! :) — Maulik V ♦ 18 mins ago
I'm quite sure that 'home' in 'go home' is not an adjective in the same grammar that considers 'there' in 'go there' an adverb.
Arguing and explaining can be quite exhausting, so I just put my spontaneous thoughts here.
1:33 PM
@MaulikV - probably because we can use the preposition to with nouns and pronouns, but not with adverbials, and there seems to work as an adverbial here. — CopperKettle 40 secs ago
2:13 PM
@DamkerngT. I like Germans.
They're interesting people.
. . . with an interesting culture.
Friendly, in a honest sense, and not being a [insert a word milder than 'peasant' here] even at the peak of their rudest jokes.
Oh, and they do "xD" a lot.
@snailboat So close. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Hehe! That sounds like the German people I've known. :D
Q: What effect does a bat's echolocation have on other bats?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Bat echolocation is a perceptual system where ultrasonic sounds are emitted specifically to produce echoes. By comparing the outgoing pulse with the returning echoes, the brain and auditory nervous system can produce detailed images of the bat's surroundings. This allows bats to detect, locali...

Wow, this really took off.
Echolocation is fascinating.
I've heard that some people can do that, though I'm not really sure, but I've seen a blind kid riding a bike in a TV show just fine! (He made click sounds while he was riding the bike.)
OK, that's definitely not echolocation.
What else could it be, then?
2:19 PM
But since a bigger part of their brain can be devoted to understanding other senses, they get really good at other senses, esp. hearing.
They mightn't have been born with it, but I think they're trained to do echolocation.
I can only feel the change of ambient sounds sometimes when I move my iPad or book or something large enough and close enough around my head.
Oh, it got another upboat!
Two overall questions on bio.SE, one with 11 and the next with 10 upboats. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ
An upvote (0:
Good question. I believe many scientists have wondered about this issue, so I'd expect some good answers.
Good evening. (0:
2:29 PM
I'm eating "kuku".
Traditional (?) food which is basically eggs and vegetables cooked together.
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Sounds great!
That makes me a little hungry. :-)
2:32 PM
I'm used to eating it with bread and yogurt.
@DamkerngT. But the sense is not the same, probably. Here, comes stands for reach, IMHO.
It's usually delicious, but I sometimes get tired of eating it by looking at the food. :P
Kuku also spelled as Kookoo (Persian: کوکو‎‎, Azerbaijani: Kükü) is an egg based Persian dish. It is frequently a vegetarian dish, made with whipped eggs which then are folded in with various ingredients. It is similar to the Italian dish frittata or an open-faced omelette. Kuku typically has less egg than a frittata, and it cooks for a shorter amount of time, over a low heat, before turned over or grilled briefly to set the top layer. For the typical Kuku Sabzi recipe (as pictured), the eggs and herbs are mixed and seasoned with salt, black pepper, walnuts, sometimes flour, sometime barberries...
It does look delicious.
@CopperKettle nods -- Exactly! (Which is why I'm still thinking whether come there is okay in the OP's context.)
Is the stress on the first or the second syllable?
2:34 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. If LOLcat Bible has a page, why not Kuku?
Oh, it's a herb-infused omelette.
I think @Dam just got up to cook himself some kuku. :P
3:28 PM
Any chance of some help with a reopen vote over here?
Q: What evidence is there that 'to' belongs to any particular part of speech?

AraucariaReopen note: There is a quite finite and modest amount of evidence in the literature about this issue, which members can record here as they see fit. Less than there is for example about what a noun is or what a verb is, or how to tell what the Subject of a sentence is. It's a simple question, t...

Especially as we now have someone who might have some good info to put in an answer (BillJ) ...
3:57 PM
It'd already been reopened before I got there. Congrats! :-)
@DamkerngT. Yummy isn't it?
4:13 PM
@DamkerngT. Thanks old bean! :)
2 hours later…
5:51 PM
@Dam you there?
Q: a role in whatever Western diplomatic effort might eventually bring the war to an end -- why is there no "that" after "effort"?

Cookie MonsterSource: Russian media is spinning the downing of a Russian jet fighter into a wider conspiracy theory Example: In Given the alternatives, that’s good news: It means that Russia is unlikely to respond to the Turks militarily and unlikely to drag NATO into broader conflict. It could also mean ...

A case of rudimentary omission of 'that', or is there more to it?
6:08 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't know what the fuss is all about. Yep, an omitted that.
I love how he says "I thought you knowed".
Recorded in 1944, but still cool.
@CopperKettle Yeah, but Cookie guy is overcomplicating it.
And I thought there must be something big here. Pfft.
He is already great in English.
6:29 PM
I don't really think you should put that there
@CopperKettle I think that there in your example is a locative complement with the form of a PP
@snailboat - good evening!
@snailboat - in my example?
Sorry, I can't respond to specific messages on my phone
@snailboat Ah, I recalled I made a comment about there
Thank you!
I'll have to try again later :-)
6:34 PM
Oh! Yay
"She is in there somewhere" -- this example?
Calling there a preposition is non-traditional and follows the great Otto Jespersen's analysis of some things that are traditionally called adverbs as "intransitive prepositions"
Imagine if we called intransitive verbs "adverbs" simply because we required verbs to be transitive. But that seems silly, right? Intransitive verbs, apart from being intransitive, pattern just like transitive verbs, not like adverbs.
The same is true of words like there. They pattern like prepositions.
The example was
6:39 PM
> Are you going to come there?
> Are you going to come to that place?
"Are you going to come there" - is there a preposition here?
The simplest analysis is to say that there and to that place are the same kind of phrase (PP), but to is transitive and there is not
Either way, you have a locative complement. Though come should probably be go, I suppose.
Yes, because there is not an object.
Definitely not an object :-)
6:42 PM
The chat works sketchy for me for the last hour.
Sometimes messages refuse to be posted. (0:
I thought it was something with SE servers.
Because the main site worked a-okay.
Choosing between come and go is simple in the common case (you come here but go there), but it's actually quite difficult to lay down a set of accurate rules that work all the time.
They're called deictic verbs of motion
I remember trying to understand the expression "come away (with something)"
It's psychedelic.
To come away!
6:45 PM
And a lot of linguists have tried to work out just when each one can be used.
Interestingly, analogues of come and go quite often work differently in different languages!
So depending on your L1 and L2 it can be quite tricky to learn
In Russian, its priiti and uiti (prefixes pri (come) and u (go))
Oh, neat :-)
I should think so! (is it the\a proper use of this expression?)
6:47 PM
Was it a response to me saying they can be hard to learn?
No. You say: "Oh, neat" I reply "I should think so!"
Probably this is not the way to use this expression. (0:
Oh, then that might be a little weird :-)
I don't use that phrase myself, but I think there's an implication that what you're responding to is something you'd expect to be true even if the other person didn't say so
6:51 PM
We also have zaiti (to enter a house, a room etc), podoiti (to approach)... etc.
otoiti is go away from something, but not far
otoiti also means "to recuperate" from the action of a drug, or from a sudden shock
podoiti also means "to fit" (for clothes)
pereiti is to "cross something" (a bridge, say)
Et ti Russkie? :P
"Zhizn prozhit -- ne reku pereiti" (To live through a live is not to cross a river), a saying meaning it's harder to live a life through than to cross a river
@S.R.I Yes, we're having a Russian lesson. (0:
@CopperKettle wait, is that a samovar in you DP?
@S.R.I A good idea. (0:
uh no, I have no good ideas
how's that suddenly possible? bwahahaha
6:58 PM
You continue your Russian lessons, while I leave my mind to drift elsewhere :P
horosho (good; okay) (reads almost like "horror show")
A non-rhotic pronunciation of "your bunny wrote" (if you slur over the R at the end of your) sounds like a rather hard Russian obscenity.
That's all for today's lesson. (0;
@snailboat Indeed! Standgon posted a nice comment:
A very good question about a subtle point. My short answer is that you don't need that, because of the whatever: "whatever X" basically means "any X that". Whatever/whichever/whoever essentially "steals" the that or which or who that would have appeared later in the sentence, e.g. "The thing that is in the box" -> "Whatever is in the box". "The person who eats fish" -> "Whoever eats fish". "The one which you choose" -> "Whichever one you choose". But I admit I don't have a reference for this or a good way to phrase the rule. — stangdon 41 mins ago
7:20 PM
\o @S.R.I! Have we met?
@S.R.I @
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Hi, no don't think so :-)
What's up?
OK then. Hullo! :)
What are your interests here on LangOverflow?
7:25 PM
@S.R.I LangOverflow.
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. That's all? :P
@S.R.I Seriously though, what else do I need? I have a nice teacher here, a fun robotic friend, and this pronunciation guy who always pops in with pointers, and a programming legend that teaches me typography.
\o @Nih
@CopperKettle But traditionally, there would be called an adverb.
Look, I can respond to specific messages now that I'm at a computer! I'm so proud of myself :-)
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. It's awesome only if you have all of that! Since you do, good on ya, mate! :-)
7:31 PM
@Copper how do you drop so fast in chat? Quick notifications?
@snailboat Nice!
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I was just lurking...
How many pronunciations of <a> in English?
Oh yeah, I should enable quick notifications. I'm not notified anywhere at all. If only I had people sigh ;-)
@S.R.I hey @S.R.I
Pronunciations of ‹a›? I dunno, a lot?
7:33 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Okay, okay. That's 3 more than I get any day! :D
Now that I see the word 'basically', I can remember being annoyed when everyone kept throwing around that word
I understood it to be used in a condescending manner between peers
@snailboat What's this? Is it an image that's not loading for me, or a nbsp?
Don't people ever understand that!
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. well you asked for an <a>
Not as many <a> as asked by @Nihilist_Frost
(What is this, joker time?!? Let me know if I should stop)
Thou shalt never stop unless TC's upset.
7:37 PM
It's 0100hrs here and I have nothing better to do
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. An image from the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary software
TC, he's the guy teaching you typography? I've known him to be a perl guru
Recently images don't load for me in Chrome.
@S.R.I Shh, he's not teaching directly.
oh, I like that!
Anyway what languages do you speak? What's your mother tongue?
And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you, and what's your passport number?
7:39 PM
Is my English so bad? If so, I apologise - it's the time of the day :P
I think we're talking about the grapheme ‹a›, not about the HTML tag <a> :-)
@snailboat We are?
@S.R.I Your English is fine! Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. is silly.
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Well, maybe a little? :-)
It's almost noon here.
7:41 PM
@S.R.I I/we was/were just getting to know ya better. :)
Who can do palatal fricatives?
I live in the U.S.
I live in India
@Nihilist_Frost Everyone here, probably?
@snailboat PST?
7:41 PM
I use them in Japanese and English.
I live at home.
@S.R.I Yes, that's right :-) I live in California, to be a little bit more specific.
In English, we don't have a palatal fricative in our phonemic inventory, but we do have an allophonic palatal fricative.
@snailboat I know there's a ~12hr timezone difference between IST & PST :-)
Snailboat: what's your race?
7:43 PM
@S.R.I A-ha! I always get confused about things like that, because we have Daylight Saving Time, so sometimes we're on PDT instead, and I can never keep track.
palatal fricatives are the low rumblers? (ro-ro, ruh-ruh)
Ah no, never mind me talking off my mind
[ç] is a common phonetic realization of /hj/ in English.
But we don't contrast [ç] and [hj], or any of the pronunciations in between the two.
So we don't write /ç/ in phonemic transcriptions of English.
@snailboat does /sz/ qualify?
7:47 PM
So when you look up huge in a dictionary, you find /hjudʒ/ (AmE) or /hjuːdʒ/ (BrE) – which are only different, by the way, because BrE lexicographers have settled on redundantly specifying vowel length, not because the vowels differ in length
@S.R.I I'm afraid I don't understand the question
@snailboat I was asking if /sz/ qualifies as a palatal fricative. It's a forced sibilant with a hard palatal push?
Can you give an example of an English word with the string /sz/ in its pronunciation?
Not that I can recall - but there's phosgene
I'll shut up now and go to sleep
That doesn't appear to have an /sz/ sequence
7:55 PM
I see /ˈfɒzdʒiːn/ and /ˈfɑːzdʒiːn/ as transcriptions in the LPD
I can't type those transcriptions, I have always had it as: 'fahszeehn'
Transcriptions in forward slashes should be phonemic transcriptions using the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)
Do you mean that you can type them or that you can copy-paste them from any IPA reference?
That's the keyboard I usually link to :-)
8:01 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. hah, awesome
@snailboat Am I supposed to answer that with a smiley?
:-) :-) (-: (-:
more smileys never hurt anyone
They burn my soul.
That's supposedly a good burn?
How will you live otherwise?!?
Dunno. You tell me.
8:06 PM
Breathe one small breath at a time
@S.R.I Molecules aren't considered 'alive'.
that's how
So . . . What are your interests @S.R.I?
Would it be bad if I said "none at all"? I occasionally make fun of language
@S.R.I Oh. You misunderstood. I meant general interests. I'm a chem nerd for instance. :)
I'd guess I have to cross languages out. :P
But over time, Snail and Dam have made me love language and studying it.
8:14 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I understood that - I'm banging keyboards during the day and at other times, my brain comes up with weird sentences
Just this morning, I had a sentence formed: "That's a black banana not worth consuming"
Had to google "black banana" - sure enough, it's a night club. Not sure where that came from, honestly. So yeah, I have absolutely no interests whatsoever
@S.R.I That's a perfectly valid sentence.
@S.R.I At the very least, your command over English is highly remarkable among the Indians I've seen.
No, weird as in, totally out of context. It has no relevance to whatever I do. In fact, I wasn't even speaking English :-)
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Oh what? You mean this English is the speaking I can speak properly? :D
Anyway shakes hand doubtfully
in The Periodic Table, Jun 14 at 16:19, by M.A.Ramezani
I'm 16, from Iran.
/me gladly extends hands
Short intro of this chat:
Oct 21 at 21:59, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M
@VictorBazarov OK, chat intro, level 2: @Dam is a robot, @TCh is something worse than a robot, @Stoney is a guy from the past millennia, I'm a chemical, @Snail is a snail vehicle, @Jim is the judge in Judge and Jury, @Copper is a Russian bike biker, and we're yet to see a normal human here.
Hey @Dam we should pin that or something. :P
BTW @Dam I fully consent moving these messages to trash Cabin.
8:27 PM
Why? Because they are too revealing? :-)
@S.R.I No, LO meant to be kind of strictly related to language talk.
I think everyone's okay with some off-topic chatter in Language Overflow :-)
ELL's Cabin is supposed to be the main chatroom.
We just don't want to be the drama room.
But yeah, the Cabin is the general purpose room for the site.
8:29 PM
But it gets 1/10th the LO's traffic and messages everyday.
That's the best place for meta discussion, for example.
that's what I thought of LangOverflow. It's an overflow channel, if the main language channel is ever too much, we shift to overflow
The Cabin still has more messages than LO . . .
I think people go wherever people happen to be talking :-)
Like talking about what talking about talking in LO should be. O.o
8:30 PM
@S.R.I We try to put more technical discussions here sometimes, or discussions about languages other than English.
Like Japanese Persian.
@snailboat I can't handle technical discussions, as you might have seen. My Grammar teacher made sure of that. :-)
At any rate, you're welcome in both rooms :-)
ehh, I'm only curiously curious about English. It isn't an useful language to me other than to speak :P
Well, you don't have to learn technical stuff to speak a language.
8:33 PM
Yeah, I am proof of that, right?
I still want @Dam to gallery this room up.
Although without technical vocabulary, it can be difficult to describe language accurately.
Well, clearly not gallerying it opposes he purpose of the room.
I'm not talking about visitors, I'm talking about me.
@S.R.I I am proof of that.
. . . in the Cabin.
Who says there's only one proof to a proposition?
@Dam could just give everyone access, but the very fact that I'm allowed to talk because someone added me to a list rather than just because makes a difference.
@S.R.I Me. (•_•)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿
8:36 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. whoosh
I think axioms are generally things you don't prove.
Oh sure - if you want to derive from first principles, you start from axioms.
In a manner of speaking, axioms are also propositions
Enough chatter, I think. I'll see myself out now

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