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8:00 PM
there are many universes
Are you relegious @Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.
 
"Depends on how you define X."—An answer that we're all gonna ultimately reach in the end of this discussion.
@Ahmad Yes. Note that that doesn't mean I don't think.
 
if by this universe you mean a system, knowing any system could be intresting
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Good to you! thats not a simple question! and there is no a simple answer
to know if we really beleive
 
What does believing mean?
There should be several starting points.
There should be some things you define.
 
when we study about the many who died and turned to dust, that's a very important question, is there any life afterward
 
We can't just go off and say 'but what is X really?'
@Ahmad Bigger question – Did they really turn into dust?
How do we know what we're observing is what's really happening?
 
8:05 PM
the evidences you learn in chem, says that, how I can say diferent?
for this reason I look for a meta physic, not this physic and chem.
 
@Ahmad Everyday we realize that the building we built trying to reach understanding something contains defective blocks . . .
 
or maybe not
it seems we never can get sure
no one backed from that world, this despairing ...
 
Yes. The world is spinning on probability.
Yet the system is so elegant and in order, that we can never get as close with simply probability.
 
I sure 'd want 2 kilos of tomato. Even if measured with a degree of probability.
(0:
 
Drawing is awesome. Drawing with Tikz is more so.
 
8:11 PM
@CopperKettle are you religious? However I think its impolite to ask such question in western culture? sorry where are you from?
 
I'm in love with this system of zeros and ones. :)
 
@Ahmad Yekaterinburg, Russia. I'm an agnostic.
 
@Ahmad Winkabearia
 
@CopperKettle intersting! I just checked what agnostic means :)
 
In the winter, I'm a buddhist. In the summer, I'm a nudist. (0:
 
8:13 PM
being atheist is difficult
 
nods
 
@Ahmad Direct result of trying to draw a line beginning in what we don't know to what we do know.
 
However, we don't miss much, when we don't know what are we.. and why we ever should exist... we could be thankful that we existed for awhile
 
"The world rolls round for ever like a mill;
It grinds out death and life and good and ill;
It has no purpose, heart or mind or will.
"Man might know one thing were his sight less dim;
That it whirls not to suit his petty whim,
That it is quite indifferent to him.
 
BTW the 'winkabearia' ref is here @Copper:
in The Periodic Table, Jun 8 at 15:16, by M.A.Ramezani
So you're Winkabearian?
 
8:15 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I googled and got no results. (0:
 
I'm too cool for Google. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ
 
(0:
@Ahmad Considering that creation myths are the first things created by any civilization, even the smallest one, we do feel amiss if even for a second there's no coherent picture in which we have some meaningful role.
 
@CopperKettle I was trying to undestand the poem, whose poet is?
 
So religion will exist as long as there is two or more persons alive on Earth.
 
@CopperKettle That's the exact sentence from our theology book.
 
8:20 PM
@Ahmad The city of dreadful night, a light read. (0:
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I swear I was not the author of your theology book. (0:
 
@CopperKettle Do you think I'll believe that?
 
Belief is a deep topic. (0:
 
@CopperKettle Have you read Khayyam poems? it is like them
 
@Ahmad I read some, and I know that his poems are allegedly edited for this reason in Iran.
 
@CopperKettle I don't know much about editions, but I think there were many people who survived the Khayyam, Rumi and Hafiz poems, they are not necessarily in accord with relegious beliefs
 
8:24 PM
nods
Poets love to be rebellious.
 
If Iranian were that relegious (as the regeme is) such poems would never survive
 
@CopperKettle Makes them stand out; be noticed.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Yep. They failed in chemistry, so at least in that they could shine. (0:
 
@CopperKettle I feel pity . . .
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. But there are some scientist-poets.
 
8:26 PM
Or rather 'were'.
 
Khayyam was a mathematician.
 
@CopperKettle Khayyam was a scientist too
 
Yeah I was going to say that
 
John Whiteside Parsons (born Marvel Whiteside Parsons; October 2, 1914 – June 17, 1952), better known as Jack Parsons, was an American rocket engineer and rocket propulsion researcher, chemist, inventor, businessman, expert witness, writer, socialite, and Thelemite occultist. Parsons was associated with the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), and was one of the principal founders of both the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and the Aerojet Engineering Corporation. He invented the first rocket engine using a castable, composite rocket propellant, and pioneered the advancement of both liquid...
 
8:27 PM
50 secs ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.
Or rather 'were'.
 
I hight Don Quihote‌​, by rocket scientist (and chemist!) Jack Parsons
He died in a chem experiment gone wrong.
 
Such an honor.
 
Hafiz maybe was not a scientist, lived 800 years ago! but his poems are very live, always in future, like he speaks from somewhere above the clouds, you can't find any rubbish in his book
 
nods
Khwāja Shams-ud-Dīn Muhammad Hāfez-e Shīrāzī (Persian: خواجه شمس‌‌الدین محمد حافظ شیرازی‎‎), known by his pen name Hafez (حافظ Hāfiz; 1325/26–1389/90), was a Persian poet who "laud[ed] the joys of love and wine [but] also targeted religious hypocrisy". His collected works are regarded as a pinnacle of Persian literature and are to be found in the homes of most people in Iran, who learn his poems by heart and use them as proverbs and sayings to this day. His life and poems have been the subject of much analysis, commentary and interpretation, influencing post-14th century Persian writing more than...
 
@CopperKettle He has two books; Golestan and Boostan. I have an English translation of Boostan here.
 
8:32 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Ah, you recently told me about it!
 
Boostan is consisted solely of his poetic artwork.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Who? thats a shame
 
@Ahmad Who who?
What do you mean?
 
I hope you don't mean Hafiz @
 
@CopperKettle Golestan is more aimed at anecdotes, but still has a few verses in each short anecdote.
I always enjoy reading his poems, even if I don't understand them at times.
 
8:33 PM
Hey, we didn't talk about Sadi, did we?
 
Oh wait.
I thought the Wikipedia link was about Saadi. O__O
 
Oh my god!
 
Must be the after-effect of 12 a.m.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I'll download them in Russian!
 
As an Iranian it was a bad mistake, oh!
@CopperKettle He actually was talking about another person, not Hafiz, Hafiz has one book as far as I know
 
8:35 PM
Anyways, Khaghani (mind the spelling) is famous for having the most complicated verses in Persian.
@Ahmad Misread, not mistook.
 
I hope so!
 
Some of his poems' meaning isn't yet understood.
 
To me Hafiz is not a poet to be mentioned beside other poets like Khaghani or Sadi
 
I've just read two short verses from Golestan, they reminded me of John Donne
 
Khāqāni or Khāghāni (Persian: خاقانی‎‎) (1121/1122, Shamakhi – 1190, Tabriz), was a Persian poet. He was born in the historical region known as Shirvan (located now in present country of Azerbaijan), under the Shirvanshah (a vassal of the Seljuq empire) and died in Tabriz, Iran. == Life == Khaqani (real name, Afzaladdin Badil (Ibrahim) ibn Ali Nadjar) was born into the family of a carpenter in Shamakhy. Khaqani lost his father at an early age and was brought up by his uncle, Kafi-eddin Umar Shervani, a doctor and astronomer at the Shirvanshah’s court, who for seven years (until his death) acted...
@CopperKettle I know you'll also love Nezami's work.
 
8:38 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I'll check it out, thank you!
 
@CopperKettle What about Hafiz, did you read his book too?
 
@Ahmad Their work is different. It has a different effect, meant to be different.
 
@Ahmad No, I'm remiss on Persian poetry. (0:
 
@Ahmad I'm not sure Hafiz's poems will be as intriguing when translated.
 
@CopperKettle I just can say, he is not just a poet! he and Rummi, even maybe just he
They can't be translated, they just can be sensed, maybe only in Persian
 
8:40 PM
Rummi and Roodaki are awesome too.
@Ahmad Yes, that's what I'm getting at.
 
I've got a paper book by this guy in my hand now:
Ghalib (Urdu: غاؔلب‎; Hindi: ग़ालिब) born Mirza Asadullah Beg Khan (Urdu: مرزا اسد اللہ بیگ خان; Hindi: मिर्ज़ा असदुल्लाह् बेग़ ख़ान), on 27 December 1797 – died 15 February 1869), was the preeminent Indian Urdu and Persian-language poet during the last years of the Mughal Empire. He used his pen-names of Ghalib (Urdu: غالب, ġhālib means "dominant") and Asad (Urdu: اسد, Asad means "lion"). His honorific was Dabir-ul-Mulk, Najm-ud-Daula. During his lifetime the Mughals were eclipsed and displaced by the British and finally deposed following the defeat of the Indian rebellion of 1857, events that...
 
There are many poets in other nations like Rudakki or Khaghani, but there is no Hafiz
He is the poets of poets of poets....
 
@Ahmad But something like Golestan has stories that can be phrased in other languages. Sure, they'll lose some of their niceties, but not everything is removed.
@Ahmad Other nations? Khaghani is definitely Iranian.
 
I mean there are other poets in other nation who may be like Khaghani
and yes, Golestan is an intesting and very useful book who many people can get and enjoy
very genius maxims
 
Oh wait. How we dare not make an honorable mention of Ferdosi? @Copper I know you know him, though this discussion is pointless without mentioning him.
 
8:44 PM
But there are good similar works in other nations, but nowadays some westerns are realizing the impact of Rumi and the depth of his thoughts, there is still awhile so human can realize Hafiz
 
And he is the pioneer.
@Ahmad Hafez's poems need not be realized. They need to be felt.
 
Yeah I mean to realize who was he
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Yep, you mentioned his Shahname the other day.
 
Ferdowsi is great too, his ambition is adoreable
He was one who survived Iranian pride and language, just one man!
while his stories are describing Iran history, in another layer they are stories for the world, for the things that happens and happens on the worlds every day
 
@Ahmad "survived" - probably "upheld" or "furthered", "promoted".. hm..
We use survive mostly as in "He survived the war".
"He helped the Iranian language survive", "He furthered the cause of Iran and its language"
 
8:50 PM
@CopperKettle The Iranian language :)
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Thank you!
 
Anytime!
 
@CopperKettle thank you :0) , helpful words
 
You're welcome! It's a language overflow chat!
 
actually Persian survived by men like him
 
8:52 PM
@Ahmad We're always there.
 
@Ahmad "Actually, Persian survived thanks to men like him" ("through men like him")
 
At least, where our knowledge fails, there's Snail.
 
Maybe the reason that I am glad to be Persian is to understand these masterwoks
 
I like 'thanks to' better.
I'm proud to be Persian for many reasons.
The only thing we suck at is management. (I managed TRE episode 1 well though) We're one of the smartest nations there is.
ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ × 3000
Thanks @Snail
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Yes, we are smart people, however many of our smart people migrate, and it may affect the generation IQ
 
8:55 PM
@Ahmad Though I like this quote from our Arabic teacher:
> The world doesn't revolve around the hands of the smart. It's the hardworking that rule the 21st century.
 
Many nations have adorable history and works, suppose Greece or Egypt, and Iran but today such countries were left behind
we got stuck in superficial things
some say relegion
 
We got stuck with stupid governors for 300 years.
That's why we're moving on like a Snail.
 
@CopperKettle there is a famous quote from a russion (maybe Lenin) about relegion we say in Iran
Can you guess what? @CopperKettle
 
@Ahmad "Religion is the opium for the people"?
 
Exactly
 
9:00 PM
"Religion is the opium of the people" is one of the most frequently paraphrased statements of German philosopher and economist Karl Marx. It was translated from the German original, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and is often rendered as "religion... is the opiate of the masses." The quotation originates from the introduction of his proposed work A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right; this work was never written, but the introduction (written in 1843) was published in 1844 in Marx's own journal Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, a collaboration with Arnold Ruge...
Sorry, not Lenin. (0:
 
It is adorable that Westerns could get rid of it! Do you think so @CopperKettle
 
@Ahmad Could get rid of the quote or of religion?
 
relegion
and relegious people
 
@Ahmad Adorable gives me an impression like 'cute'.
HEY!
I'm religious.
 
I'm not sure they exactly got rid of religious people.
But they managed to separate church and state.
 
9:02 PM
Pro tip: I don't think west is like what we think @Ahmad.
 
Yeah that was a big step
 
They still love religion, but kept academia and politics secular.
 
but here relegous people say they can't be distinct. The relegion is for this universe and another universe....
 
nods
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. that's the main step, otherwise we all know we can't get relegion from people
they left people believe what they like...
 
9:05 PM
In Russia, communists overthrew Orthodox Christiany and set up a quasi-religion that was worse.
So there are always caveats.
 
Well, I believe we certainly don't know how to mix religion with politics, since the people that decide are religious leaders, not particularly politicians.
 
@CopperKettle I thing nothing is worse than relegion where you rule in the name of GOD
@
Ooops how it is hard to type your name @MAR
 
Thing is, religion promotes so many ideal mottoes people don't adhere to.
 
@Ahmad They ruled in the name of the Supreme Science of Marxism-Leninism, and killed millions, so I'd say that was at least on par with the Crusades and Holy Inquisition.
 
@Ahmad Just type @ and press "tab".
@Ahmad Note that I don't think politics is good, no matter where in the world.
 
9:09 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. You think relegion should be separated from politics?
 
Iranians tend to think religion has made their government's decisions the way they are now. FWIW, I know that nowhere on Earth there is a political paradise @Ahmad.
@Ahmad No, but we don't know how to combine them. So maybe yes. So my answer is Schrodinger-like.
 
@CopperKettle Intersting! I didn't know other man-made systems could be so sacred as it is relegion
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. relegion can be misused easily
 
@Ahmad That depends on what aspect of it allows it to be misusable.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. it is the reason behind many wars in Muslem world
 
@Ahmad In my youth, we were drilled about the wonders of the future Communism and good old Lenin and a lot of other lies. Lenin's Mausoleum is still sacred to communists here.
 
9:13 PM
@Ahmad No, you're not looking at it deeply. Religion is a set of rules that people can memorize and not think about, even though that's wrong. So it can be misused. And so can any other set of rules about social life.
That's why stuff like socialism, communism etcism don't end up well as well.
BUT
 
Solzhenitstyn wrote that in USSR's labor and death camps the religious people were the most resilient in opposing the communist lies.
 
God is something that any human stuggle with, so one can't be indifferent, the feel of guilt and ....
 
I define religion to be a set of rules on how to be constructive and responsible in relation to roles you need to play that'll ultimately benefit someone other than you.
Thus I'm religious.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Relegions is worse because there is God there! that is the main point
@CopperKettle Yeah, In Iran also they were relegious people who opposed the Shah (Iran Kingdom)... but they act in a restricted scope
they don't do those because they think such, they do because the relegioun says that
 
Thinking about the possibility of existence of God or any other philosophical notions bound to it is wrong when you don't have academic knowledge in this field. The word 'Allah' is related to a word I can't remember which means "going insane". The human brain is limited to boundaries and thus can't think of or imagine such things AFAIK.
 
9:18 PM
like the commonism says that...
 
@Ahmad Religion doesn't say that. It's being interpreted that way.
BTW it's 'religion'. :)
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. The problem is that there is GOD in the relegion system, and one can't easily fight with what they impose you
 
@Ahmad What do you mean?
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't mean God is good or bad, or exist or not, I say the problem in mix of religion and politics is that the GOD plays role
 
@Ahmad if you take a look at Quran, you see that it's all generalizations to us. That's why it hasn't been maliciously modified. It has one meaning, but various interpretations. I call myself a Muslim, and so does the ISIS agent that's killing people somewhere in the world. I don't believe in what he does and he doesn't believe in what I do.
 
9:22 PM
It seems systems based on riligion, no matter what, are deemed to fail
 
@Ahmad Kinda. Extremism always fails.
Not necessarily religion.
 
But I specifically says Relegion,
 
Many families can be considered a religious system, but they don't devolve.
@Ahmad How do you define it?
 
the good relegion is a dead religion, it can't be ever be good logically
can't
 
In Russia, there's a saying "The holy place is never empty" (root out one god\hero, and people will find another god to put in the same place)
 
9:25 PM
@Ahmad But religion is good since if it weren't for it, I would've stolen my friend's cellphone.
@CopperKettle Yes, that's because humans are like that.
 
Because never God appear and say "hey people it is what I want", Always there are people who speak in behalf of GOD and they are evil
then that system lets evil rule in the name of GOD
 
We need two idols to worship. One from us, one not from us.
No matter what form it takes.
 
always, that's a mathematical proof
 
@Ahmad Again. That's not religion. That's the guy that interpreted it.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. And that is always the case, always
 
9:28 PM
@Ahmad Well, we could've been like other religions: Be specific, and they change the content to match what they say. Quran was general, so it wasn't changed.
 
You can't raise up and say hey this is the true religion, but other one can say the same too
 
True that.
But I won't rise up.
 
But most evil people rise up, they are more eager to do that
 
Deism (/ˈdiː.ɪzəm/‍ or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzəm/), derived from the Latin word "Deus" meaning "God", is a theological/philosophical position that combines the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe. Deism gained prominence among intellectuals during the Age of Enlightenment—especially in Britain, France, Germany and the United States—who, raised as Christians, believed in one God but became disenchanted with organized religion and...
 
those understand less, claims most
 
9:30 PM
"For Deists, human beings can know God only via reason and the observation of nature, but not by revelation or supernatural manifestations (such as miracles) – phenomena which Deists regard with caution if not skepticism. "
 
@Ahmad That's their nature of craving power. Again, it's not related to religion itself.
So you and I are saying the same thing: Religion is good.
@CopperKettle Oh.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Yes, if you be a Deist
 
There are some deistic viewpoints in Islam.
@Ahmad That's details. We're talking generally.
 
@CopperKettle Yeah, they could be genuine or just a way to push the relegion away from politic
 
Three points of Deism:
Rejection of religions that are based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God.
Rejection of religious dogma and demagogy.
Skepticism of reports of miracles, prophecies and religious "mysteries".
 
9:33 PM
That's incomplete.
Miracles exist. They happen everyday.
 
@CopperKettle intersting, but it didn't happen in Isalm easily
 
Anything you can't explain is a miracle.
 
First, they think Quaran is the word of God
 
\o @Jasper, sorry, heavy duty religion debate here.
 
and second, they think all people should become muslem
 
9:34 PM
It's turned into the ELU room.
@Ahmad I also think that.
@Ahmad Should. Not must.
 
@CopperKettle You know, they are not wrong, if you suppose that Islam is from God and Quran his word, that's the problem
 
لا اکراه فی الدین
Meaning 'there are no obligations regarding who chooses what religion'.
 
Thas a dellima, you either beleive that or not
if you believe that then you must act according to it and if not, then you are not actually a muslem and you don't believe in God
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. The problem is not that, the problem is that you think you are right! otherwise how can you be indifferent to the wrong things?
 
@Ahmad Everyone thinks they're right. What's the problem with that?
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. They say In my opinion, but you think it is God's will
 
9:39 PM
I don't say that.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. if you say Islam or any other beleif is just a personal thing, I have no debate, I node it, but is it what you say? or is it what Islam says?
 
4 mins ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.
لا اکراه فی الدین
That's verbatim Quran verse.
 
But Quaran says many contradicted things
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. have you read Quaran completely? there are some verse which are very great but still you can find old archaic beleifs in it.
And some non-modern things
 
@Ahmad The meanings were never archaic.
 
when you read Quran you feel one just threaten people! actually they can't be the words of GOD
 
9:42 PM
But the facial stuff and analogies, why not?
@Ahmad You feel like that?
> Be a good guy, go to heaven. Be a bad guy, and suffer the consequences.
Is that menacing?
 
But it has been over emphaseized
 
@Ahmad Gimme an example.
 
God has ruined many nations (Loot, ....) because they did this or that, some myths, but why God doesn't do that stuff today?
 
He doesn't?
Maybe he does, in another way?
 
In which way? you see those who you consider Kafer have very good lifes
 
9:45 PM
@Ahmad Many did, do and will do.
He has shown power to few.
 
Even earthquakes can't ruin their building, but one in a muslem country kills millions of people! thats the hand of God?
 
@Ahmad It's wrong to say that's God's hand. Lemme elaborate.
 
I don't say , you say
but it seems it doesn't work today
 
@Ahmad Wait for it, I'm still writing.
I think of life like a computer game. There are limitations held by someone we call the programmer in the game, and God in real life. You can't get your hero 10000 points from nowhere, just like you can't move Mt. Everest with bare hands.

So God doesn't need to do things. And he doesn't. He knows what will happen, since you know how the program you wrote will function. And he controls life, just like how a programmer controls what his code will do. But in the end, YOU are the player.

Yes, the programmer built stuff and controls everything. But it's the player that says whether the main ch
Same applies here.
The fact that I'm chatting here was known and planned, but it's me that's doing it, not God.
So you have a choice of going to France and killing a bunch of innocent people to get some attention, but that's not what God's doing.
You also may save someone while they were close to drowning in a lake, but that's not what Go'd doing. It's you.
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Thanks, good analogy, I don't argue that, that is irreleated sorry!
 
9:53 PM
But your brain, which decides how you act, is part of this universe, and hence should comply with the rules. Freedom of will, farewell.
 
@CopperKettle Thing is, the rules are very general.
"The main hero's XP can't get more than 1000."
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. You say about the hot debate of "will or force"? but that was't topic here
 
@Ahmad It's relevant since you're implying that it's God' will that someone does evil stuff with religion, while it's not.
 
I can get that we are player who plays in the game of God, however don't forget we as programmer don't punish or reward our game's roles
 
I'm saying that general stuff is written.
 
9:56 PM
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I didn't say that
 
Getting to practice is where people fail.
 
We were discussing about Quaran, and I brought a contradiction
 
Oh no.
 
I said, in Quaran you read how god was sensitive to acts of some nations and destroyed them, but you can't see such events these days
 
Mom says I need to go to sleep now. :/
 
9:57 PM
It has been the same with Christianity. Freedom of will and salvation debated for centuries back and forth.
 
We'll continue this discussion tomorrow. Bye for now. o/
 
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Sleep tight!
I'll go catch some z's too. (0:
Good night, @Ahmad!
 
Goodnight @Copperketter and @, see you later
@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. bye :)
 
"White matter constitutes the neural network, about 160,000 kilometres in length, that transmits signals in the form of nerve impulses and is crucial to the regulation of internal communication between the different areas of the brain."
 
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