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01:12
10 hours ago, by Sʨɠɠan
Honestly I’m lightly annoyed by Hippo…ian. The languages they post in seem to be made ad-hoc, and they are reviving old irrelevant meta posts.
@AidenChow qubits are the bits in quantum computers
^ is by far the best explanation of qubits/quantum computing I've come across
01:33
argh
FP errors are giving me such a hard time with calculations for school
especially since I have to do all the calculations in years and au when the values are > 1 in days and km
@Seggan Have you considered fixed point?
I'm a big fixed point fan
@RydwolfPrograms im using arbitrary precision for the really delicate part
im calculating jupiters mass from its moons orbital periods
ganymede and europa are giving fine enough values, idk why callisto is really off tho
ok recalculated apparently i messed up when calculating radius ** 3, its fine now
python saves me again
and yes, i still hate python
01:59
@Seggan well ya ik that already
 
4 hours later…
05:57
@AidenChow They made a site in reddit, it's entirely separate from us and doesn't really effect us
@mousetail yea but they also said that they are planning on making an area 51 proposal...
We can complain when he does that, but it's not going to get even 5 followers so it's not really a concern
 
5 hours later…
11:12
@zoomlogo cool
@Hello,World! I made a loophole proposal for this: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/25723/117478
@PlaceReporter99 There was never a rule supporting log byte counts in the first place
-1
A: Loopholes that are forbidden by default

HippopotomonstrosesquipedalianAbusing the log byte count This mainly involves creating a programming language that uses only 1 character (similar, but not the same as Unary) and using the fact that \$\log_{256}(1)=0\$. I violated this loophole myself, actually.

 
2 hours later…
13:20
PLDI CMQ: Does anyone know of a programming language that allows non-ASCII whitespace to separate tokens in the code?
I take it you only want praclangs
Yes.
Javascript apparently
@Adám Does NBSP count? It's U+00A0. Swift allows that but not other spaces (e.g. 3-per-em space is banned)
It does count, thanks. I think JS allows that too, but I'm very interested in additional characters, and what other languages have to say.
13:28
JS does allow the 3-per-em space
JS seems to allow all sorts of spaces
clang allows 3-per-em space but gcc doesn't
even spaces that don't look like spaces
var k = 3
console.log(k)
prints 3 as expected
because apparently ` ` is the "Ogham space mark"
That looks like a space to me
0
Q: Calculate Bloons RBE Equivalent

evanstar3Calculate Bloons RBE Equivalent In Bloons Tower Defense 6, the strength of different bloons can be measured by their Red Bloon Equivalent (RBE), or the number of single pops it takes to completely defeat the bloon. The RBE for the bloon types are as follows (sourced from the wiki) Bloon RBE ...

13:31
firefox shows a line
@lyxal I wonder if that's specified anywhere. It doesn't seem to follow Unicode, since U+200B is definitely in the Space Separator category, but JS won't have it.
googling that character brings a very weird set of results
@Adám as a matter of fact, yes
> Other than for the code points listed in Table 35, ECMAScript WhiteSpace intentionally excludes all code points that have the Unicode “White_Space” property but which are not classified in general category “Space_Separator” (“Zs”).
inews.co.uk
gov.uk
bbc.co.uk
various other news websites
the Instagram account of consumer advocacy group Which?
the definition of "the" from dictionary.com
the song "Home" by David Sylvian
@lyxal Nice:
user image
6
13:39
a tiny amount of trolling
@Ginger what's even cooler is the fact that i got sounds working in unity :)
14:02
@mousetail What?
That's just how the math works
When we decided to allow fractional byte counts that's what the rule became
Ooh Chess got a design!
Time is on drugs again I just got my 5-year yearling badge for this account
@RydwolfPrograms No, that's just one way of converting and the answer supporting it has -1 score
"One way of converting it" ?!
log_256(n) is the number of bytes of information communicated by a symbol which is one of n options
That's just math
We didn't just make up a formula
When you say "log-bytes" are you talking about the specific formatting of irrational byte counts in answer headers, or do you somehow want to remove irrational byte counts?
"Log-bytes" in either sense are going to exist no matter what as long as we allow fractional byte counts
You can force people to make up units analogous to trits, but all that does is mask them
You can also force people to treat each character as an integer number of bits instead of trits or 96-its but that restricts our current policy for no reason
IMO there's nothing wrong with Fig and Thunno's byte counting
2
It's a little annoying and kind of unnecessary, but having it exist once (or twice...) just as a proof-of-concept isn't a problem
And the mathjax really isn't that annoying
14:38
@RydwolfPrograms Tell that to the leaderboard script
Oh yeah. (and the ranking scripts)
@Adám If python does normalization, then it must have it too
14:57
@RydwolfPrograms If you said bits it would make sense but bytes are not a mathematical unit
A byte is just 8 bits
log_256(x) is equivalent to log_2(x) / 8
A byte is 8 computer bits, not 8 enthropy bits
log2 only makes sense for measuring enthropy
...they're the same thing
15:35
...no
A byte is a physical thing
Oh you're right. I've got a byte in my hand right now. It feels sharp and cold and metallic.
A byte contains 8 bits of entropy
Maybe there's some sort of semantic difference that would be worth discussing if we were making a dictionary here, but a "computer bit" is identical to an "entropy bit" in terms of what it measures
if you're saying that every program should be measurable in physical bytes, then you're not against "log-bytes", you're against the idea of fractional byte programs, and arguing for what our old consensus was
Which was that your program must be able to be represented as a physical file on a filesystem, and thus a whole number of bytes
And we decided against that for a few reasons:
1. Not all (real, physical) computers are bit-based. There were ternary computers.
2. Not all languages have a convenient binary representation. E.g., piet and its codels. We have asciipiet, but it seems reasonable to allow measuring in codels rather than bytes in some arbitrary file representation
3. You could make a filesystem that is able to handle fractional byte programs. How do we decide which filesystems are and aren't valid?
4. You could physically implement a 96-it. If I really wanted to, I could create a CPU that runs Fig natively
15:54
@RydwolfPrograms Maybe, but that's not the same as saying 8 bits of enthropy is a byte
Bytes are not actually always 8 bits
I've worked on computers where bytes are 10 bits
"Byte" on this site always means "octet"
A byte is just the minimum addressable memory size on a computer, it's not a universal unit of information
Scoring answers in bits would be silly
Well actually, I guess answers could score themselves in 10-bit bytes
But I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion of computer vs. entropy measures of information
To be honest I'm not really sure what your proposal is
Scoring answers in bits make 1000% more sense than bytes
No it doesn't, because bits are inconvenient
And converting between them is utterly trivial
16:01
It's a bit less convenient but makes a ton more sense form a information theory perspective
What makes you think that a unit equivalent 8 bits isn't meaningful information-theory-wise
Because a byte is not a concept in information theory
so you can't apply information theory concepts to it
it's a hardware concept
Who the fuck cares
We all know what a byte is
If you don't care why bother converting to bytes
Convenience
16:03
It's utterley meaningless to do so
No, a byte is 8 (or sometimes not 8) bits
Do in in your head if you care so much
Same goes for you
If you want it in bits, convert it to bits
I don't want it in bits at all
I see no value in a common unit
I'm not proposing one
I support codels being allowed as a unit, for example
16:04
Then why are we disagreeing?
3 mins ago, by mousetail
Scoring answers in bits make 1000% more sense than bytes
I am disagreeing with this
Bytes are a arbitrary concept, bits are a fundamental unit
it's like degrees vs radians
And?
What does that change?
I'm always for using simpler units to make everything easier
But bits aren't simpler
16:06
But only if you are comparing languages
which you shouldn't do in the first place
When I'm writing Jelly or JS I'm not thinking in terms of bits
You're arguing that 1. arbitrary units (like bytes and codels) are bad and bits are good, but also that 2. bytes and codels are good because convenience
Yea because you don't care about the absolute value, just relative to the same languae
so the information theory doesn't play a rule
bytes and codels are good, but not for comparing different languages
Ah I see
Log bytes should still be an option tho
There's not always a better unit
Maybe for a weired hypothetical language that mixes different bases
E.g., for Fig, there was no name for a unit consisting of 96 possible symbols
Of course "symbol" exists but I don't think anyone thought of that
16:08
@RydwolfPrograms I specifically suggest just using the word "symbol" for that
And the whole point of Fig's encoding is to be in bytes
Other words may include "code point" and just "unit"
Because it wants to be side-by-side with SBCS langs
It can't actually be encoded in bytes though so it shouldn't be scored in bytes
If Fig's users want it to be measured in bytes, then they should also have the right to measure it in bytes
@mousetail Not sure I agree with that
16:10
That's the entire point of my post, you can use more efficient scoring if you like but stop measuring things in bytes that clearly are not bytes
just measure it in anything else
even bits kinda works from a math perspective
I thought the point of your post was to allow codels and scratch blocks and similar
It's a side effect
No, they're contradictory
Allow everything so people don't need to use bytes, then we can finally stop using bytes for things they are not
4
Either people can use the scoring they want to use, or they're forced into some arbitrary convention
Fig wants to use bytes. Let it use bytes.
2
16:11
Stop shoehorning codels, scratchblocks, cirquits, fig etc. into a byte system where it doesn't fit at all
I agree with that
But if a Piet answerer wants to use asciipiet, they still should be allowed to
Sure, asciipiet is basically a entirely different language
I'm saying you should be able to use whatever scoring you want. Can you list the ways your views disagree with mine?
Because they seem to, but I can't tell how
You can use whatever you want, as long as you can actually hypothetically store your program in the unit provided
so no bytes for fig
I think that makes sense, though I disagree with it still
I just don't see the harm that comes from allowing, e.g., Fig to use bytes
16:15
I can respect that, agree to disagree
If the concern is leaderboards and ranking scripts, adding a bazillion units will just make that worse :p
Quite a few newcomers have been confused and annoyed at the logbyte answers
Yeah but people being confused by our scoring is as old as time
There's the whole "akshually in UTF-8 this is 6 bytes not 4" meme
I did some recently in PIC16 assembly which uses 14-bit words
Oh G&L also got a design
Not much of a fan tbh
16:26
Idea: a golflang with an OEIS builtin
16:37
That would either be ridicolously time consuming to make, or invalid in 99% of challenges
I guess most sequences do have implementations included, so maybe it could be Mathematica-based, but you'd still have to do a loooot of work
1. Download OEIS, 2. ???, 3. Profit
@Bbrk24 cQuents
Currently, it only has 12 OEIS sequences implemented, but I think the creator meant to do more, and add in more functionality to it
17:00
@mousetail you mean 8 times as much sense right?
17:35
0
Q: How do I set up a King-of-the-hill tournament?

HippopotomonstrosesquipedalianRecently, I've been interested in KOTH bot tournaments, so I was wondering if there was a way to set up a KOTH tournament without spending any money to buy a web domain. Is there a way to do this?

18:05
@RydwolfPrograms great! Now make a decimal computer.
@RydwolfPrograms just call it a fig
@RydwolfPrograms esp since fig is a lisp and lisp machines exist
18:22
@RydwolfPrograms internet go brr
im kinda split over the issue
i do think scoring everything in bytes is not good
but Fig was also designed to be byte based, to compete against sbcs
Well I think you should have a choice
Fig shouldn't be required to be byte based, but you intended for it to be, and should be allowed to make it byte-based if you want
(IMO)
18:58
...why is a single Rust crate taking up over 3 GB on my machine
yeah for some reason rust crates are taking up quite a bit of space
esp since i only have a 256 byte drive
@Seggan 256 bytes or GB???
bytes, we're code golfers
@AidenChow yeah ofc bytes
you didnt know i run a 70's laptop?
/srs its 256 GB
Oh same here
Just ran out of space today in my 40 GB Linux container
19:04
ive had to delete stellaris just to get ksp2 on there :(
and then ksp2 turned out to be too jank to even load
I decided to look at my disk usage now because this made me curious. Apparently I have 4GB of old/uninstalled Windows versions
my Documents folder on my Pi is 46 GB (over a quarter of my total space) and I have no clue why
du -sh * is a great command for this sorta thing, and you can throw in a | grep '[0-9]G' for big directories
att
att
19:28
@Seggan this is the crux of the problem with log-bytes imo
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

HippopotomonstrosesquipedalianConvert Cartesian coordinates to polar coordinates Cartesian coordinates are the standard type of coordinates. The notation is \$(x,y)\$ where \$x\$ is the distance from the origin on the horizontal axis and \$y\$ is the distance from the origin on the vertical axis. Polar coordinates are not...

19:41
@att what is?
0
Q: Approximate sine, cosine, and tangent!

InfigonThe sine, cosine, and tangent functions are commonly used. Your goal is to approximate these three functions within 1% given any value (no restricting range). Assume the input is in degrees. You can only use addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and modulo to do math. If you use other ...

> 10^1000 byte penalty for every operator
why do that instead of outright banning them
sigh
> In the case of a tie, the program that returns the closest value to tan(364634) wins.
that's incredibly arbitrary
another poor challenge
19:47
cuz they probably want to avoid ppl saying dont do do x without y challenge so they do this to circumvent that
Do I just golf the heck out of my implementations from Math.aussie? /nsrs
20:03
It feels so cursed using Firefox on my Chromebook
(tho it's nice having it as an option lol)
What do the emojis mean in regex answers (like "Regex 🐇" and "Regex 🐘")?
probably ask deadcode in a comment under one of his posts, he seems to be the one doing that
20:28
IMHO this question is a very useful one to have and shouldn't be downvoted: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/260085/91213 (but maybe moved to meta idk)
Worth noting the tag wiki is a great resource
21:00
0
Q: How do I set up a King-of-the-hill tournament?

HippopotomonstrosesquipedalianRecently, I've been interested in KOTH bot tournaments, so I was wondering if there was a way to set up a KOTH tournament without spending any money to buy a web domain. Is there a way to do this?

^ that is a migration btw
Interesting that the migration orphaned my comment votes and I can vote on them again
I wasn't aware we had a meta question about making KOTHs, so I have migrated and closed the question as a duplicate
He seems to specifically be asked on how to do it for free
interesting how the migration also just silently deleted one of my comments with no record
there are no deleted comments on the post according to mod tools :P
12 comments on the original post, mine and only mine just disappeared after the migration
21:04
Nope, it also deleted this comment
Before I closed it, so it wasn't a dupe deletion
Dupe deletion?
21:48
@cairdcoinheringaahing Should I change NP/SP to not post migrated questions?
@mousetail If you comment with a link to a post, and the original post is then closed as a dupe of the linked post, the comment is deleted

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