The Nineteenth Byte

user

00:07

@lyxal Yeah but it seems like OOP may gradually fall out of favor

FP is pretty trendy nowadays

Although I guess there aren't too many simple statically typed languages out there

C isn't simple, Python isn't statically typed

Sʨɠɠan

00:24

@user with nobody actually using them in production

the closest are rust and scala

user

Hardly nobody

Haskell isn't very commonly used, but it is gaining traction

Unrelated String

it's also just based

user

It showed up on the Stack Overflow survey this year, right?

^^

Ginger

@user kooootliiiiin

Sʨɠɠan

haskell, lisps, elm orr whatever arent very used

@Ginger thank you

user

00:25

Kotlin is not the simplest language

Sʨɠɠan

@UnrelatedString whats based

Unrelated String

even if it doesn't catch on for practical use on a large scale it feels like it's sort of the trendsetter for emerging fp-inspired languages

Ginger

@user ~~said like someone who's never tried Kotlin~~

user

It's not as much of a kitchen sink as C++ or even Scala, but it's got a lot more stuff to learn than Java

@Ginger I'm not a Kotlin expert but I've written some Kotlin code

Sʨɠɠan

@user read: more advanced stuff that you can go withoutt

(except lambdas)

user

00:27

Yeah you can just avoid teaching students about those topics until it's time but stuff like null safety has to be taught early on

I feel like you kinda need to know Java to understand Kotlin

Sʨɠɠan

null safety isnt very cognitavely heavy

user

Yeah I guess

Sʨɠɠan

@user i mean, it is a "better java"

TwilightSparkle

31 mins ago, by TwilightSparkle

CMQ: How to golf a challenge that does multiple string substitution in a row in Python?

Ginger

@user I guess? but I feel like that just lets you appreciate how much better it is

user

00:29

Right, it just might not be the best as a first language

idk, I have no experience teaching and I'm neither a Java nor a Kotlin expert so there's not much point in me talking about this

TwilightSparkle

example: s("asdf","1",s("qwerty","2",s("zxcvb","3",s("dgfdg","4",input()))))

user

Java certainly isn't a great language either, it doesn't have a base type shared by primitives and objects so it's a bit weird

@TwilightSparkle Perhaps a reduce?

Sʨɠɠan

@user i fully agree

but production wise, it is a great language

user

It is

New Posts

00:46

0

Q: Parse a CSV file

In this challenge, given a CSV file, you'll return the data contained as a 2d array of strings. Spec: The input consists of one or more records, delimited with \r\n (CRLF), \n` (line feed), or some other reasonable newline sequence of your choice A record consists of one or more fields, delimite...

TwilightSparkle

@user How to use it though

Unrelated String

splats :P

though considering it is python fp may not be the shortest

if you don't switch to python 2 you'd even have to import reduce

TwilightSparkle

@UnrelatedString so what's the shortest :(

Unrelated String

good question

TwilightSparkle

@UnrelatedString Apparently some people don't like python2

so I can't use it.

@UnrelatedString I think there might be like 20 challenge that includes multiple substitution already.

oh, i think i've found the relevant challenge.

25

Q: Make me speak L33T

I want to be down with the kids of the 1990's and start speaking this L33T speak of their's. For any given input I would like the resulting L33T speech as an output. I don't want to go to far down the rabbit hole so let's start simple. Consider the following replacements: B or b = 8 E or e = ...

code-golf string

nvm, that only works for single characters.

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Is it a hyperjump?

TwilightSparkle

05:54

How to further reduce this? print(abs(eval(input().translate(dict(zip(b"FDKREPATB][",[*"+"*8+"-)","*(0"]))))))

in Python 3 ofc

emanresu A

06:31

thirty chat flags?

emanresu A

08:01

→ 1 tablespoon of curry powder moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

Hello, World!

12:19

0

A: "Hello, World!"

Dashly, \$42071388039438961777345231865101843758526437831811625\times\log_{256}(1)=0\text{ Bytes}\$ Yes, correct. It's just 42071388039438961777345231865101843758526437831811625 dashes. But apparently, you can do \$\log_{256}(n)\$ bytes per character if your programming language only uses \$n\$ o...

2

PlaceReporter99

12:30

@emanresuA nineteenth bakery?

mousetail

@PlaceReporter99 The trash room

PlaceReporter99

1 teaspoon of expired tea 🍵

i hate expired tea

@Hello,World! Definitely 0 bytes

PlaceReporter99

12:52

we need to revive this chat room

wake up

we need to do cpr

this chatroom is unconscious

Ginger

> Sometimes, there isn't anybody talking in chat. That's perfectly fine. Don't send messages just because the room is quiet.

PlaceReporter99

breaks chatroom's ribcage

Ginger

(from the chatiquette)

PlaceReporter99

@Ginger just a joke

Ginger

Just wanted to make sure you knew

PlaceReporter99

12:56

breaks chatroom's ribcage

ok

mousetail

Threats of violence are also generally not appreciateed

Sandbox Posts

13:23

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Minimum Buttons on a calculator to get from one number to another code-golf My calculator looks like this: · · · · · 1 2 3 + · · · · · 4 5 6 - · · · · · 7 8 9 * · · · · · = 0 / · · · · · Given a starting number and a e...

zoomlogo

13:33

@Hello,World! but the language should allow compression for it to count right?

(by compression i mean encoding and decoding should be in the language interpreter/compiler)

mousetail

This is why log scoring is dumb

zoomlogo

yeah you can't store decimal bytes in reality

mousetail

Socing in trits or digits makes sense, but attempting converting that to bytes is nonsense

TwilightSparkle

14:20

8 hours ago, by TwilightSparkle

How to further reduce this? print(abs(eval(input().translate(dict(zip(b"FDKREPATB][",[*"+"*8+"-)","*(0"]))))))

anyone?

mousetail

14:48

@TwilightSparkle The expression [*"+"*8+"-)","*(0"] doesn't actually save any bytes over just writing it out

"++++++++*(0" is 13 bytes vs the complex expression which is 19

Sʨɠɠan

15:07

Honestly I’m lightly annoyed by Hippo…ian. The languages they post in seem to be made ad-hoc, and they are reviving old irrelevant meta posts.

CMM: I admit I’m the initial perpetrator of log byte counts, but I feel that we should ban them now (and probably allow other measures of score counting, like trits or whatever). Should I write up a meta post?

zoomlogo

why ban them?

Sʨɠɠan

IMO they are starting to get abused

see: the last hello world

+ fig and thonnu

zoomlogo

fig and thonnu have compression for fractional bytes, right?

Sʨɠɠan

Not really. They can’t actually read log byte programs

zoomlogo

oh...

Sʨɠɠan

15:17

they read in ascii

@zoomlogo there is no way to represent them using our base 2 storage system

zoomlogo

@Sʨɠɠan yeah ofc its all theoretical

but how about rounding up to the nearest byte?

caird coinheringaahin g

@Sʨɠɠan Yeah, I haven't really waded into the sub-single byte discussion yet, but that Hello World answer, while being deliberately facetious, makes a point. We don't have a consensus on log byte counts, having a meta discussion would be a good idea

This is the best we have so far

12

Q: What is our consensus for fractional byte functions?

In a discussion about SBCSs and other code pages, fractional byte counts were briefly brought up. I brought up our consensus that fractional byte programs are disallowed, and it was pointed out that the consensus does not disallow functions in languages with fractional byte code pages from having...

discussion scoring

zoomlogo

i made this a while ago... but its just compression

Sʨɠɠan

@zoomlogo that is equivalent to rencoding in base 256 bijectively

TwilightSparkle

@mousetail The expression [*"+"*8+"-)","*(0"] is not "++++++++*(0", it is ["+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "-", ")", "*(0"].

If you actually tried to run it.

zoomlogo

15:23

@Sʨɠɠan is it allowed tho?

Sʨɠɠan

i.e. what some string compressors do

@zoomlogo that kind of compression i think Arn or Ash do, and i know charcoal does that too

zoomlogo

oh

Sʨɠɠan

so even if we don’t allow just rounding, that is a workaround that is equivalent

mousetail

@TwilightSparkle Still it's just 13 bytes

TwilightSparkle

@mousetail ["+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "+", "-", ")", "*(0"] is not 13 bytes, it is ridiculous number of bytes.

mousetail

15:29

No, you can just write "++++++++-)*(0"

No need for the commas and the [] around, and the inner quotes

TwilightSparkle

??

time to learn python for me.

mousetail

zip(b"FDKREPATB][",[*"+"*8+"-)","*(0"]) == zip(b"FDKREPATB][","++++++++-)*(0")

TwilightSparkle

@mousetail That appears to be not equivalent though.

mousetail

I might have types the ++ expression wrong

but strings are basically the same as lists

TwilightSparkle

@mousetail No

The point is

[ should be translated to "*(0"

mousetail

15:39

Maybe [*zip(...),(91,'*(0']) not sure if that's still shorter

sorry my bad

New Posts

0

Q: Please stop the log bytes madness

On January 1st, 2022, it was decided we would allow scoring in fractional bytes. A decision I mostly agree with. Just to recap, the main reason this is beneficial for the site is: it allows comparing answers in the same language even if they would otherwise "round up" to the same value. It allow...

discussion

6

Sʨɠɠan

Hey I was writing up one just now

The Thonnu

Someone's downvoted a lot of answers here

Sʨɠɠan

The downvoted answers all use builtins

None of the non builtin ones are downvoted

@mousetail can you elaborate of what “languages that don’t use a numerical system at all” means? As in Piet?

caird coinheringaahin g

15:59

@mousetail Where did you get Jan 1st from?

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Calculate Bloons RBE Equivalent In Bloons Tower Defense 6, the strength of different bloons can be measured by their Red Bloon Equivalent (RBE), or the number of single pops it takes to completely defeat the bloon. The RBE for the bloon types are as follows (sourced from the wiki) Bloon RBE ...

PlaceReporter99

16:28

@cairdcoinheringaahing just thought I would show you a possible loophole.

@cairdcoinheringaahing Anyways, i've made a chatroom for it: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/145326/0-bytes

@Sʨɠɠan I actually post in python most of the time

@Sʨɠɠan I just use the "Hello, World!" challenge as an area to see how my other programming languages do.

New Posts

17:29

0

Q: We can continue code trolling!

About 9 years ago, every question about code-trolling was locked and asking new questions about this topic was banned. If you missed this, I created a subreddit for this, and hopefully we can make it to Stack Exchange! I will make a proposal on Area 51 soon.

discussion

Ginger

just what even

hopefully that'll die a quiet death

PlaceReporter99

Wow -2 in 1 min

Rydwolf Programs

You don't want to join the successor to PLDI, Code Trolling Stack Exchange?

DLosc

TBH it feels like reasonably good fit for Reddit. But I don't think that warrants a meta post here.

att

@Seggan "starting"

Seggan

18:12

@PlaceReporter99 because 1. it doesnt warrant a meta post 2. it feels like you are announcing a community consensus 3. new SE sites are not for something so specific (open source SE is an unfortunate not-to-be-emulated), even CGGC is Code Golf and Coding Challenges

@att well now yes

mousetail

@Seggan Piet, but also Minecraft Redstone, Baba is You, logic gates, opus magnum, excel etc.

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oops should be January 4th

Seggan

ah yes

wait excel can be scored in bytes

mousetail

@Seggan Sorry, I actually started writing it a few hours ago

@Seggan Sometimes, but often I've seen attempts first to minimize number of cells and bytes treated as a tiebreaker only when cells are equal. There is no real consensus, different golfers try for different things

DLosc

IMO the answer to this question is implied by the answer to another question: Do we want to be able to compare solutions in different languages? If yes, we need a common scoring method so we can compare them. Bytes makes the most sense. If no, then each language should be free to use the most natural scoring method for that language. Bytes is a good default, but it doesn't work well for some languages.

Seggan

> code golf is about finding the shortest code in a language

DLosc

18:27

I feel like our current answer is "no, but actually yes," which leads to confusion.

Seggan

^

mousetail

I don't think we should describe a fixed way to compare code in different languages. Of course, language authors can use various techniques to compare how golfy languages are but it's not really the primary purpose of our site. There are also many ways to do this and prescribing a single fixed one is unhelpful even to language authors

Seggan

officially, were not comparing, but its nice to see how short code can get

and how verbose java is

mousetail

I like to read Java code to fall asleep

5

Seggan

i think your meta post is really 2 questions: first, do we ban log bytes, and second, should we allow other scoring systems?

i say yes to both, but the second has complications depending on how we define code golf

mousetail

18:33

Yea, my point is that I don't like logbytes and I'm suggesting a alternative that still gives us the benefits without the drawbacks, but then again has new different drawbacks

Rydwolf Programs

It makes no sense "ban log bytes"...that's how the math works, you can't ban it. There can and will be situations where it doesn't make sense to invent an arbitrary unit, and using the actual bit/byte count will make the most sense

mousetail

There might be other solutions as well

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms but what keeps people from claiming their Unary solution is 0 bytes?

Rydwolf Programs

I think it's worth noting the byte requirement isn't really as much about comparability between different languages as it is about enforcing an objective and single-dimension scoring system

@Seggan The fact that no sane person scores it that way

Seggan

we can always say "trits" in the edge case

Rydwolf Programs

18:35

For base 3

Seggan

but i dont see how anything would ever use log bytes beyond trits

Rydwolf Programs

cough cough

fig

Seggan

Fig, Thunno, et al are artificial

Rydwolf Programs

ah well yeah in that sense

Seggan

no sane person would make anything that is not base 2, except for golfing (im not including non text based langs here)

Rydwolf Programs

18:36

The reason we don't take the information encoded by code size into account for other languages is that a) it doesn't actually allow stowawaying that much information and b) the way most filesystems work it makes sense to do it that way

Since no base 1 file system does or can ever meaningfully exist, it's a bit of an exception

Plus there's the more practical concern that you can't compare two different Unary answers if they're scored identically

(which is the same reason I oppose things like blocks or codels being allowed as a scoring unit)

DLosc

@RydwolfPrograms Can you elaborate on how this applies to codels?

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms huh

as in both being score 0?

Rydwolf Programs

@DLosc Not as much to codels actually. But let's say Minecraft blocks or GoL cells. There's multiple reasonable scoring methods (number of blocks/alive cells? bounding box size?)

Also fwiw I'm generally against the trend of encoding languages that use fewer than 256 characters using a weird subset and logbytes (even if they're given a unit name)

Since scoring is within languages and it's just a constant multiplier

We can just do that in our head if we choose to compare between languages, and I personally already do

DLosc

@RydwolfPrograms Right, okay, that feels different from the Unary situation (and the bounding box discussion does apply to codels too).

@RydwolfPrograms You can multiply by log_256(96) in your head? Wow! ;)

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah I realized halfway through writing that that it's an entirely unrelated reason to the one for Unary lol

@DLosc No, but I can multiple by 75% :p

Which is close enough

If it's more than 10 bytes you just add a byte or two, whatever feels right

@DLosc I feel like this is comparable to "do we rob banks"

Officially we do not

But people still do

We don't make official concessions in our rules just to make bank robbery easier, since our official position is you don't do it

But we all partake in a little extortion in our free time

DLosc

18:47

Maybe speeding is a better analogy

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah maybe

(hastily stuffs ski mask in pocket)

DLosc

19:13

@RydwolfPrograms Hm. So under this analysis, what's wrong with codels? Banning them seems like mainly a move to make "bank robbery" (cross-language comparison) easier.

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah codels are fine I think

DLosc

You may want to update your answer, then

> That means trits, 96-its, etc. would be allowed, but not, e.g., codels.

Rydwolf Programs

I'll prolly just delete it honestly

DLosc

(FWIW, I've been kicking around vague ideas for a graphical language that can be encoded using 3 bits per codel...)

Rydwolf Programs

I've been doing so but for 128 bits per codel

Seggan

19:37

im a bit confused, rydwolf seems to have been switching positions through the convo?

also im doing something really cool for school rn: calculating jupiter's mass given its distance and the angular separations of its moons for a month

its cool that the laws of physics allow you to do such things

Rydwolf Programs

@Seggan I prefer the term "refining" but yes :p

Aiden Chow

20:29

@NewPosts lmfaoooo imagine code trolling SE as an actual thing...

itll be funny as hell but probably not very good lol

hyper-neutrino

@NewPosts ...

ATaco

21:00

Just saw @RydwolfPrograms ‘s reddit post on reddit about the language design se and it was like seeing a celebrity in the wild

Bbrk24

Yeah, that's where Reddit posts tend to be

caird coinheringaahin g

Didn't think I'd have to ever write up a meta answer saying "this bad thing from a decade ago is indeed a bad thing", but there we go

Aiden Chow

@cairdcoinheringaahing lmfao i wonder if the guy is trolling or smth

caird coinheringaahin g

Tbh, I can see the appeal of code trolling

It is fun to do, and, if you haven't thought about why it's banned, it's easy to overlook just how bad it is

emanresu A

21:16

@RydwolfPrograms I think that consuming pre-shared entangled pairs should count against the data sent. Without that Holevo's bound limits you to one bit per qubit, assuming you have to actually reliably recover every bit, so I think that's the fair going rate. — xnor 3 hours ago

We better not start counting with qubits

Aiden Chow

wtf qubits????

is that the next new thing after log bytes

ATaco

Hippo’s been shaking the branches since they started posting. I appreciate new outlooks on things, but it’s getting silly, especially with their 0 byte dashes post

Unfortunately, Qubits have a hardware implementation

Aiden Chow

@ATaco ye, and hes literally suggesting to revive back code trolling as an entire new site

lyxal

22:42

@NewPosts I know I'm a little (a lot) late to this discussion (about code trolling) but here's my 2 cents about it: while it may be fun to do a little trolling, code trolling itself generally isn't funny. And that's not because of the quality problems, but because a lot of the jokes are so language specific that the punchlines are easily missed by those not familiar with deeper language functions. It basically turns into a bunch of in-jokes suited to only a small crowd.

And at the end of the day, that's more suited to language-specific communities rather than a language agnostic forum

user

23:34

Reddit is great for that kind of thing, I don't know why they need to make another SE site for it

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