The Nineteenth Byte

Neil

00:16

@mousetail that image is missing the best bit...

Seggan

also it can be simulated perfectly with union types

type X = Y | Z
class Y...
class Z...

val x = Y()
match x { is Y(...) -> ... is Z(...) -> ... }

Bubbler

00:34

Now the problem: how would you match on a union type where each branch is not a concrete type?

type Foo = (X & Y) | (Y & Z) | (Z & X)

AviFS

We're almost at 50% commitment for PLDI!

Seggan

@Bubbler i dont see why you cant just enforce destructuring just on concrete types

you can still do x is (X & Y)

and x is X(...)

Seggan

00:56

alright, finished rewriting the package and function system

cracks knuckles time to start working on classes

this has been vastly simplified by the function rewrite

AviFS

01:12

@Seggan What are you guys working on?

ATaco

I've implemented a Macro system in BrainChild, with the intent of it being usable to hack in Syntax.

macro ( (assignable) (/(\*\*|[*\/+-])/) "=" (expression) ) { $1 = $1 $2 $3 } is used to define x += 3

Seggan

@AviFS Rol, a language ive been mentioning several times over the past few months

its intended to be a replacement for lua for those who hate lua's syntax (me)

it compiles to lua

AviFS

@Seggan Ooh la la, link to info?

Seggan

imm currently writing up some docs

AviFS

Awesome

Seggan

01:18

remind me tomorrow if i forget

lyxal

@AviFS you wanna see something cool?

that's what I've been working on :p

Ginger

01:58

@lyxal what DLosc said :p

@lyxal that syntax looks startlingly like Dysfunctional's syntax :b

lyxal

I could say the same thing but the other way around :p

Ginger

eh?

what language is that, exactly?

verbose vyxal?

lyxal

Vyxal 3 literate mode

Ginger

thought so

lyxal

Implemented just yesterday too

vyxal.github.io/Vyxal

Ginger

02:02

neat

lyxal

It's available to play around with online

It's limited at the moment because a lot of stuff hasn't been implemented

But enough should be there that it's Turing complete.

Ginger

at least vyxal doesn't have chain filters or stack commas or the other crazy syntax Dysfunctional uses

lyxal

chain filters? stack commas?

the hell are you on about

Ginger

I'll tell you... tomorrow q:

lyxal

I take it stack commas treat things as stack items

Ginger

02:08

eh, not quite

you'll see

~~you'll all see~~

lyxal

@Ginger this is actually quite similar to how v3 literate mode looks

Ginger

here's a marginally more spicy Dysfunctional program that also happens to showcase those two features I mentioned:

yesterday, by Ginger

fib(n) -> ,1,1 swaplast ,{(##$)sum} replacelast ,{,1 (#$)sub} replacefirst ,{fib} ,{(#$)} (^#)if call

(it's a Fibonacci program, in case you couldn't tell)

lyxal

it'd be 1 10 range { ctx-n 2 mod 0 ==} filter { 10 mul } map { sum } reduce

which is only slightly different to dysfunctional

Ginger

huh, weird

~~great minds think alike (but fools rarely differ)~~

lyxal

the end could also be fold- add though

@Ginger some lag behind several months :p

Ginger

02:21

@lyxal yeah the end is basically identical

Seggan

02:32

@AviFS pushed syntax examples, no actual docs yet tho. a bit more info in the readme

adding example problems

Seggan

02:45

LDQ: should [x, y, z, ...] be a mutable or immutable list?

Bubbler

03:03

@Seggan Is it array destructuring syntax?

user

@Seggan Should be the same as what Lua uses if it's for Rol, immutable otherwise

Bubbler

Or just a list literal?

Seggan

literal

@user well erm lua has mutable lists

user

Best go with that then

Unless you don't care too much about compat, in which case immut is better

Bubbler

Also mutability is usually attached to a variable, not a value (like const x in JS)

unless you're considering something analogous to Object.freeze

Seggan

03:45

@Bubbler huh

i only heard of variable conferring immutability in rust

what i mean is i cant add to an immutable list but can to a mutable

user

03:59

@Bubbler If you do const x = [], the list that x refers to is still mutable

PyGamer0

@lyxal cool

Bubbler

@user Yes but x cannot be reassigned

user

But the object that x refers to can be changed

It's pretty common for "mutable" to refer to both variables and values

Bubbler

04:14

Ok.

Then there's Python's tuple vs. list

user

What about it?

Bubbler

another example of object mutability

I believe Python has both because list is index-assignable while tuple is hashable

@Seggan So one possible answer to this question is "have two kinds of list literals, one for mutable and one for immutable"

user

+1 to ^

Jo King

i think mutable is more referring to whether the container is mutable or not, where both variables and lists are containers

ATaco

04:41

The limitations of a 16bit Instruction Pointer are catching up to me

emanresu A

You can emulate a 32-bit cell with two 16-bit cells. Gets slow quickly though.

ATaco

05:00

I could change the underlying structure to 32-bit cells instead of 16-bit cells, but that would destroy brainfuck compilablility

(That or re-write the step that I use to emulate 16-bit cells)

(Then again, a "True" BF implementation only supports 30k cells anyway, and a 32bit IP would be unuable anyway)

emanresu A

05:25

Any substantial program is probably going to use more than 30k cells

emanresu A

08:39

@DLosc You somehow left your filesystem structure in a source map for the HBL interpreter.

Unrelated String

09:32

@Seggan but why would you

lyxal

10:58

4

Copilot knows too much

Fatalize

Pretty worrying if it starts learning to suggest code based on this site’s examples

mousetail

Does it always use patterns from the project you are currently working on, or was the project just in the training data

lyxal

@mousetail I don't have any project currently open

+ even the code I have in my vyxal directory never mentions what Vyxal is nor where its website is

+ vyxal.pythonanywhere.com was way too late to be in the training data

unless of course it's always being retrained

New Posts

11:23

Best of CGCC 2023 - Call for categories

6

lyxal

@mousetail the latter

I asked someone who I'm 99% sure doesn't have vyxal on their computer, and it gives the same completion

pxeger

it must have been retrained

lyxal

yeah, because copilot originally released in mid-2021 and v.pa only became a thing in late-2021

pxeger

although the fact it "knows" the website suggests it's been overtrained

lyxal

I suppose it's learned about it because it's autocompleted so much for it

if you try What is 05AB1E? it just gives [^1]

but if you try What is Vyxal, it gives

Vyxal is a stack-based esoteric programming language. It is designed to be easy to learn, and to be easy to write programs in. It is also designed to be easy to implement, and to be easy to write interpreters for

05AB1E hasn't had much of a chance for copilot to do anything

Vyxal on the other hand is at least 50% copilot generated

pxeger

11:33

I conjecture that the majority of bugs in Vyxal are due to copilot

7

mousetail

Seconded

pxeger

actually if the majority of the code is copilot generated then you might expect the majority of bugs to be because of copilot

I conjecture that disproportionately many bugs in Vyxal are due to copilot

lyxal

you're not wrong

Neil

12:34

UNBELIEVABLE!! 80% of people get this simple maths problem WRONG!!!

mathcat

12:44

> simple

mousetail

20% of people used wolfram alpha

Seggan

13:02

@UnrelatedString because it doesnt work that way?

New Posts

0

Q: Roll a painted cube

There is a 1x1x1 cube placed on a infinite grid of 1x1 squares. The cube is painted on every side, so it leaves a mark on the grid when it moves. The sides of the cube are colored 6 distinct colors, re-presentable with any 6 distinct values. A 7th value represents a blank space. The cube can rol...

PyGamer0

13:16

@lyxal what!

Ginger

@lyxal so, I heard you wanted to know more about Dysfunctional

lyxal

well yes but also maybe not now

12:19am isn't good time for new language after getting frustrated at JS

Ginger

sadge

I'm pretty busy for most of your morning

lyxal

type up some stuff and I'll read as I get ready for bed

Ginger

aight

so, Dysfunctional programs make use of something that kinda resembles a stack

mousetail

13:21

Daring

Ginger

for example, take the program input print, which functions as a cat program

to the untrained eye it may look like what we are doing is calling print on the result of calling input

but what really happens is that input gets called, its return value is appended to the stack, and print pops that value off and prints it

now, take the program input input print

you'd think it would take input twice and print both inputs, but that is wrong and bad ~~and if you thought it you should be ashamed of yourself how could you~~

mousetail

@Ginger That's how print(input()) would be run internally in a practlang

Ginger

it does take input twice, but the second input call overwrites the return value of the first, so only that gets printed

this is where stack commas™ come in

a functional version of that program (assuming print pops all values off the stack) would be input ,input print

note the extra comma; it tells the Dysfunctional interpreter that instead of replacing the bottom stack value, that next input call's return value should be appended to the stack

lyxal

That just sounds like a "pair" built in with extra steps

Ginger

(you can also put a comma at the end, i.e. input input, print, which prepends the return value to the stack instead and would result in the two inputs being printed in reverse)

now we get to the spicy bit: stack filters (or "chain filters", but "stack filters" is more accurate)

(also I just realized that what input input print would actually do is take input, take input again with the first input as the prompt string, and print that :p)

lyxal

13:29

@Ginger joined by newlines or as a list of values?

Ginger

@lyxal that's an implementation detail :b

I'm just figuring out the syntax

so suppose we have the program 1,2,3 + print

this program will sum 1, 2, and 3, and print the sum

but what if I only want to sum 2 and 3? well that's where stack filters come in handy

they are a way to filter the stack (shocker) so that a function only operates on certain items

lyxal

@Ginger 1 2,3 + swap pop print

No need for your precious stack filters

Ginger

@lyxal it's a demonstration, lyxal

:|

as I was saying: in this case, if I only wanted to sum 2 and 3, I could change this program to 1,2,3 (##$)+ print

the bit in the parentheses is a stack filter, and it's basically saying "pass the last two items on the stack to this function and discard the rest"

@lyxal also wrong syntax lol, you probably meant 1 ,2 ,3 swap pop print

lyxal

No

I explicitly removed the 1 from the chain

Because it isn't being summed

Ginger

that program currently tries to call 2 on 1, which is an error

waiit

hmm, what that program does depends on the order in which commas are interpreted

it could either be 1 2, 3 or 1 2 ,3

anyway, stack filters use a syntax similar to regex

the ^ and $ characters are anchors for the beginning and end of the stack, respectively

# means "keep" and : means discard

and that's it, basically

for example the filter (^#:#) would keep the first and third stack items from the top and discard everything else

lyxal

13:36

Can I dynamically generate these filters?

Ginger

@lyxal I don't have any syntax for that... yet

but it's probably possible

oh one other thing: you can declare lambdas with the syntax {code}, which can be moved around on the stack and called using the call function

they're used by if, for example

lyxal

So if I have ` 1,2,3 (##$)+ print` why don't I just write 2, 3 + print?

Ginger

it was an example lyxal

lyxal

I know but where would I have excess data in my stack as an example? Wouldn't I always just have as much data as I need?

Ginger

recursive functions

lyxal

13:39

How do I make lists?

Ginger

and other cases I can't be bothered to think about right now

@lyxal [1, 2, 3, etc]

lyxal

Can I turn 1,2,3 into a list?

Ginger

you can do ranges and stuff with [0...] or [1...10] or [1.2.10] or such

@lyxal yes, there will probably be a function for that

lyxal

Interesting

So I can index into that list and completely bypass stack filters

Good to know :p

Ginger

...yes, I guess

mfw my exciting new features are actually new ways of doing the same thing

lyxal

13:42

Where we're going we don't need stack filters! :p

Chains and list indexing all the way!

Ginger

~~maybe I should remove lists entirely~~

lyxal

It's dysfunctional not non-functional

Ginger

the stack is the only list you'll ever need :b

lyxal

Is it a real stack though?

mousetail

Maybe have only pairs? But no dynamically sized lists

lyxal

13:44

@Ginger Or is it some sort of pseudo-stack

Ginger

it's not quite a stack because things can be added from both sides

lyxal

So it's a double ended queue kind of a thing

Ginger

sorta

lyxal

Where all operations try and consume everything on the thing

Ginger

the math operators are greedy, yes

functions like if will only consume the amount they're supposed to, tho

lyxal

13:46

That just sounds inconvenient

Ginger

it's Dysfunctional, I don't care about convenience

lyxal

forks your dysfunctional to make it convenient

Ginger

~~call it Therapy~~

lyxal

No that's javascript

Ginger

Therapy is what you need after writing javascript

lyxal

13:48

Jan 2 at 16:29, by Ginger

JS is a therapy group :p

Ginger

Jan 2 at 16:29 Ginger was wrong

lyxal

No, Jan 2 at 16:29 Ginger was Jan 2 at 16:29 Ginger

o/

Ginger

⦂|

mousetail

Language idea:

Some languages let you effectively define your own builtin. I propose a language where every function, including buit in ones and basic ones like assignment, can only be used once.

If you want to use one multiple times you must first copy the builtin to several new different names so you can use each of them once. This includes the operator you would use to redefine and copy builtins

Ginger

yknow I could probably make Dysfunctional do that

Rydwolf Programs

14:16

Another day another instance of a particular user trying to close things that really don't need to be closed :|

Can we get some LO votes on this and this?

@mousetail We don't apply that to trailing newlines in prints tho...

So why would it apply to leading newlines in prints?

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms That's not mandatory

Rydwolf Programs

I can imagine some weird late 20th century OS/programming language where the standard is to start lines with newlines instead of having trailing ones at all times

mousetail

Then just use the equivelent of sys.stdout.write

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Not with the other rules we have, which I believe we shoudn't have

@mousetail Not all languages have that

My whole point is that this arbitrarily restricts less common and less normal languages

mousetail

Every language that uses leading newlines does

Rydwolf Programs

14:23

"Use a feature common in normal languages" is not a solution

mousetail

Yes it is, again this has been discussed on meta a ton already

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail How do you know that?

mousetail

the consensus is that if a language can't compete just make your own version that can

Rydwolf Programs

That's stupid

Why should we bend to fit stupid rules instead of the rules just not being stupid

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Because there are not that many practical old langauges that predate the trailing newlines convention

@RydwolfPrograms So there is something of a level playing field

Languages shouldn't get a huge buff simply because they are terrible

Rydwolf Programs

14:25

@mousetail No

mousetail

Using hard languages should be hard

Rydwolf Programs

Languages don't compete here. And the worst way to ruin a playing field is to have big holes in it.

mousetail

We shouldn't add weird exceptions just because a language is hard to use

Rydwolf Programs

No we should not, thank you

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Determine the Octet(/Duplet/18-electron) Rule Tags: code-golfintegerchemistry Given an atomic number in the inclusive range [1,118], write the shortest program/function that outputs one of {2,8,18} if the element with that atomic number follows the duplet, octet, or 18-electron rule, respectively...

Rydwolf Programs

14:26

We shouldn't have weird rules at all

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms Exactly, so we should enforce a sane output format for all languages

Btw there where previous attempt on meta to specify a IO format per language

Rydwolf Programs

Oh okay I can't believe I didn't think of that. Send me an email when you've got one :p

mousetail

it proved too hard to maintain

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah because that's stupid

mousetail

So it's eaier to have one for all languages

Rydwolf Programs

14:27

Having default I/O rules, or per-language I/O rules, or whatever, is not a sustainable or good solution

mousetail

It is necessarily though

Rydwolf Programs

We already have the right answer staring us in the face and have been basically using it for years

@mousetail No it is not

Default I/O rules disappear tomorrow. What happens?

mousetail

All the golfing will turn into just finding the ideal IO format

No more actual coding

Rydwolf Programs

We start scoring by I/O format, like with different flag combinations. If you want to take cheaty input, go ahead, but people won't consider that competitive

The goal is to get people to use the most sensible input and ignore I/O entirely

mousetail

No then you couldn't golf IO format at all

I do want to be able to compare solutions using eg. space seperation vs new line seperated output

Making those seperate categories is dumb

Rydwolf Programs

14:32

Then compare them that way

That's what we do with flags

Offiically we don't compare them

But everyomne does anyway, according to the rules that make the most sense to them

mousetail

Exactly, we want to avoid a similar situation

Rydwolf Programs

No, that is the perfect solution

It effectively ended the flag debate, and on terms even I as probably the biggest flag-hater am fine with

mousetail

If we don't' compare by what we officially compare then why even officially decide what we compare aat all

Rydwolf Programs

And the site hasn't been overrun with flag abuse, nor has interesting use of flags died off

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms It very much has

Rydwolf Programs

14:34

@mousetail To stop people like us getting into dumb arguments about it

@mousetail Vyxal is far less flaggy than it was a year ago

mousetail

All new languages have been overrun with cheaty flags

Rydwolf Programs

Idk about that...

The newest language I can think of with flags is, honestly, Vyxal

Fig/Flax don't have them. None of the half-byte family does.

Maybe some esolangs do, idk, but those aren't designed for golfing anyway

mathcat

@RydwolfPrograms Flax does, but they are necessary sometimes*

Rydwolf Programs

Japt and Vyxal are the only two major flag abusing languages I know of

Perl occasionally does, you sometimes see it in C, but they're praclangs lol

mousetail

Yea it's mostly those 4 languages but they abuse it really badly

Rydwolf Programs

14:37

> All new languages have been overrun with cheaty flags

And all of those are from more than three years ago lol

Flag abuse has gone down since the flag debate ended.

mousetail

It's still really bad though

Rydwolf Programs

Meh. If someone uses a flag, add a byte to their score when comparing it with yours.

mathcat

I might be a bit biased, but the vyxal flag answers I have seen were added as bonus solutions.

Rydwolf Programs

^

That's the overwhelming majority nowadays

It was bad in like, 2020-2021

mousetail

4 mins ago, by mousetail

If we don't' compare by what we officially compare then why even officially decide what we compare aat all

Fatalize

14:38

Flags are boring, I don’t even know why people bother working on that

Rydwolf Programs

5 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs

It effectively ended the flag debate, and on terms even I as probably the biggest flag-hater am fine with

It's a meaningless solution that sounds good to both sides :p

mousetail

Not really, it's' a meaningless compromise that technically gives people what they want while actually leaving both sides unhappy

mathcat

@Fatalize iirc flax stores strings as integer arrays and you need a flag to output it as a string

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail I'm happy, lyxal's happy, worked good enough

You're the only one unhappy here

Fatalize

@mathcat I understand that it serves a purpose to get shorter answers in general. But it’s still boring af

mousetail

14:41

Just because, as you said, you completely ignored the meta consensus

Rydwolf Programs

@mathcat That's a perfectly fine flag

mathcat

Yeah, imo that is what flags are really for

Rydwolf Programs

The output is still the integer array, which is valid as an output format. The flag just makes it more user accessible.

Aug 23, 2022 at 14:40, by Radvylf Programs

My opinions on golfing language I/O are still summed up by my three black boxes model

mousetail

You wouldn't need to score the flag in that case

Fatalize

Esolang designers spend too much time thinking about ways to cheat a few bytes in specific situations, and not enough on having an actually interesting language

Rydwolf Programs

14:43

@mousetail 🚨SUBJECTIVITY ALERT🚨

mousetail

No literally it says so in the standard IO rules

Rydwolf Programs

@Fatalize Which esolang designers?

mousetail

That's why we have them

That's the entire point

Rydwolf Programs

Most don't include flags nowadays

Fatalize

@RydwolfPrograms All of them, me included

Rydwolf Programs

14:43

@mousetail The current flag rules override the defaults

Fatalize

And I’m not just talking about flags obviously

Rydwolf Programs

@Fatalize Oh wait, I thought you were talking about flags specifically

nvm

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms What I'm saying is, it would produce valid output without the flag, so you don't need to score the flag

Fatalize

Didn’t Jelly use to have a flag too? m or something for mathy stuff

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail We don't score flags at all tho

It's a dead letter

But yeah, that makes sense

mousetail

14:45

I mean for the purpose of category

Seems the meta consensus is that flags don't count, but the de facto consensus is that you add your flags to your score

Rydwolf Programs

Well it's more subtle than that I think

People tend to only add flags they think are cheaty, which varies a lot per-person

And some flags, like Vyxal's r, are situation-dependent

mousetail

You don't need to count flags if it would produce valid output without the flag

Even if the output would be very hard to read

Rydwolf Programs

Well yeah but a lot of flags have nothing to do with I/O

Catija

I see when I ignore y'all for a bit you go and propose entirely new sites?

14

Rydwolf Programs

Pretty successfully too :p

Catija

14:49

It's a nice concept :D

Rydwolf Programs

The name's a little long, but hopefully the scope's big enough that it'll get a reasonable number of users

mathcat

@Catija want to be the 100th commiter? :P

Catija

:D

Wouldn't want to be accused of favoritism.

Rydwolf Programs

It's not like there's many sites in commitment that you could favor us over :p

Ginger

15:41

@Catija it's how SE sites reproduce, don't draw attention to it

Catija

Oh, sorry, my bad. :D

mousetail

Who are we excluding? @SandboxPosts ?

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah, nobody likes @SandboxPosts

Ginger

@cairdcoinheringaahing either you made a typo in the Best Of pinned message or you're a time traveler from 18200 years in the future :p

@mousetail Bob Smith

hyper-neutrino

@Ginger lol

fixed

mousetail

15:51

Sad, I wanted to know what the best post of 20222 will be

hyper-neutrino

well you'll have to wait 18200 years then

mousetail

"What is our consensus on imaginary bytes" will win best meta post as post-quantum computers become more mainstream

Rydwolf Programs

Imaginary bytes?

Is that a weird name for qubits?

Also we could probably just score qubits as 2 bits each

mousetail

No, qbits use normal natural numbers still

Rydwolf Programs

?

mousetail

15:56

these are post-quantum computers, their storage is measured in complex numbers

Rydwolf Programs

What is a "post-quantum computer"

Do you mean a quantum computer?

mousetail

They haven't been invented yet\

Give it another 1000-2000 years

Rydwolf Programs

ah

mousetail

We'll also have started like 1000 new stack exchange sites by that point

Area 51 will look exactly the same though, just with more bugs

hyper-neutrino

16:21

chat still will have not been changed at all

PyGamer0

16:35

thats fine :P

DLosc

16:58

@emanresuA What where? 0_o

DLosc

17:09

@lyxal "Yo dawg, I heard you like stacks, so I put stacks in your stacks so you can stack while you stack"

user

Plug for my abandoned esolang, StackExchange, where the only data type is a stack

New Posts

17:52

0

Q: Human oriented string comparison

Traditionally when you compare two strings you use lexicographical comparison. That can be described by the recursive algorithm: $$ f(x, y)= \left\{\begin{array}[rr] \\ \mathrm{EQ} & \mathrm{if}\,\mid x\mid=0\,\mathrm{and}\,\mid y\mid=0 \\ \mathrm{GT} & \mathrm{if}\,\mid x\mid>0\,\mathrm{and}\,\m...

code-golf string

Rydwolf Programs

18:34

Can we get some reopen votes on this

Wheat Wizard

I agree with the close votes on this one.

Unrelated String

20:11

@Fatalize jelly's flags are just i/o formatting; you're probably thinking of the abandoned fork M

Rydwolf Programs

Which of course stands for "Mmm...Jelly"

Unrelated String

and yeah this is... staying closed
even if we do want to do some kind of open-ended ml popcon some day it should be better written and thought out than that one by a factor of 10

Sandbox Posts

20:43

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Avoid the hole code-golfopen-ended-function Given a continuous black-box function as a input, output a different continuous, differentiable function that never enters the box \$ 1.5 \leq x \leq 1 \wedge 1 \leq y \leq 1.5 \$. Your output must exactly match the input function when \$ x \leq 0 \vee...

Transcript for