The Nineteenth Byte

Bubbler

00:34

@user also let rec ... and ... for mutual recursion

DLosc

Whoa--holy starring spree, Batman =P

emanresu A

I'll just unstar those

Neil

eek I just discovered I've left the hob on minimum for 11 hours

Jacob

01:05

any feedback on this

Unrelated String

isn't a hob one of those things you carry bricks in

user

@Bubbler Yeah, I guess that's more the main reason for rec. Languages that don't have the restriction of needing to use a variable/module/whatever below its definition probably don't need rec+and

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString It's a stovetop

What you put a pan on when cooking

Unrelated String

wacky

Sandbox Posts

01:30

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Make a Custom Bayer Matrix code-golf matrix array A Bayer matrix is a threshold map used for ordered dithering that gives the illusion of having more shades of color than actually present by using a crosshatch-like pattern. Bayer matrices are square with a side length that is a power of 2. Here a...

Seggan

aaaa help i forgot the keybind for format code

ah ctrl alt l thats what it was

ATaco

01:48

@Seggan TBH my gut says no. Unless you're reading ahead to ensure a is assigned before b is /ever/ called, one should ensure a is explicitly initialised "Just in case".

Never trust the programmer to write safe code.

5

user

And if it turns out it's absolutely necessary, you can make the programmer explicitly say "this variable may seem uninitialized but I guarantee you it is not. If it turns out to break, that's on me. I won't file a bug report yelling at you"

Seggan

smth like lateinit

Unrelated String

yeah i feel like it should just implicitly leave b likewise declared-but-undefined until a is defined

which gets more complicated if you want to, like, pass it as a callback alongside something else that could initialize it, but at that point, like
why

Seggan

because my functions are really variables with a function type, and i really want mutual recursion

Unrelated String

oh, in that case that approach would just leave them in a waiting-for-initialization deadlock :P

i guess the mechanism could also detect cycles

user

02:01

That sounds kinda complicated

Seggan

yeah smth like lateinit would be much simpler and useful

Jacob

02:17

title must be 15 characters is a dumb limit

New Posts

0

Q: It's a dog! (Maybe)

The city defines a dog as any living entity with four legs and a tail. So raccoons, bears, mountain lions, mice, these are all just different sizes of dog. Given an ASCII-art image of an animal, determine if that animal is a dog. Rules An animal is a dog if it has four legs and a tail. The foot o...

lyxal

LDQ: Which sigil looks better for indicating assignment to variable: :name or =name (assignment looks like <expression> <sigil>name)

so you might have "lyxal" :name or "lyxal" =name

Jacob

can there be a space between the sigil and the name?

lyxal

no

Unrelated String

= for sure

Jacob

02:29

^

Unrelated String

: is more familiar as an actual prefix kind of thing and if it can't be spaced out then... yeah

Jacob

maybe even > or something to indicate that it's going into the variable. but yeah i'd say = is good

lyxal

related LDQ: Would := look good as a sigil for augmented assignment in this scenario?

so like 3 +:=val would be val += 3

Jacob

no it looks weird

i like 3 +>val better tbh

lyxal

> is already "less than" though

Jacob

02:39

oh right

lyxal

(well, it's actually "greater than")

Jacob

well i think it's fine to use the same symbol to mean something different in certain cases but i guess it could get confusing there

lyxal

problem is that you might want to have +> as a check if adding two numbers is bigger than a third

Jacob

what

Unrelated String

stack language

Jacob

02:46

oh got it

lyxal

03:08

→ 1 free robux legit 100% not fake not scam verified real click here now for [excellent deal] trust me bro you'll get mega robux moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

emanresu A

03:33

Roblox... doors?

ATaco

It's a new popular horror game

lyxal

figures

Rydwolf Programs

03:45

@ATaco In 99% of situations that just obscures the bug, no?

ATaco

Probably best one doesn't define a function before its requirements anyway

Rydwolf Programs

Sure sometimes if a variable fails to be initialized, having it at a sensible default value that you're mandated to choose is fine and everything's good. But quite often there is no sensible default; you just don't know the value yet, and if it never gets assigned, using some sort of default would just mean your program's both broken, and perfectly fine from the compiler/interpreter/program's POV

ATaco

You don't need to set it to a garbage default, just ensure the function cannot be defined before the value is assigned. I feel it'd be slightly nicer if it could instead just be caught at runtime instead of compile time.

(Or some other method to ensure it's setup before it's called)

emanresu A

So uh hasn't best of voting started?

(@cairdcoinheringaahing)

Rydwolf Programs

@ATaco Defined, or called?

ATaco

03:52

Called, aye

Rydwolf Programs

I think that makes sense, except that I could see it being reasonable to (well actually I can't since immutability ftw and functions should be pure, but playing devil's advocate) use a function to initialize global/higher scope variables

E.g., you might have a function updateName that takes the user's name and updates a record containing it. Perhaps you run that right at the start, but can also run it later. The name global starts off uninitialized but would be set before ever being accessed

Tho that's definitely an XY scenario since it should really be done with a getUpdatedName function, that leaves it to the caller to decide what to do with the new name

IMO Rust is far more functional than JS, even minus its closure/first-class-function support

Its emphasis on immutability and somewhat purer-than-JS functions, plus its much better iterator support, feel more functional in spirit, while JS just kinda gives you the tools for FP but focuses more on other stuff

Unrelated String

and rust is consciously styled after functional languages versus js just supporting functional patterns

lyxal

04:11

> 5 8 times
40
> 10 { 2 mod 0 == } map
[ 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 ]

A snippet of output from that language I was ldqing about earlier

Rydwolf Programs

Ooh

lyxal

> 10 lambda 2 mod 0 eq end-lambda map
[ 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 ]

Rydwolf Programs

lambdon't

lyxal

I can't get over how amazing it is to use full words in a stack language

Rydwolf Programs

For a sec I thought this was like, a readable-mode Vyxal

lyxal

04:14

it is

Rydwolf Programs

Well then that makes sense lol

It's just occured to me that Vyxal would make a great transpilation target for stack-based languages now that it's more stable

Y'all should hook into LLVM and make Vyxal a systems programming language

lyxal

well you see the version this literate mode is for is decidedly not stable

Rydwolf Programs

Ooh so we can use the Aaronhacks in literate mode?

lyxal

Aaronhacks?

Rydwolf Programs

Oh wait probably new-unstable not old-unstable

lyxal

04:16

this is v3 lol

Rydwolf Programs

I'm tired and almost got run over by a professional basketball team's tour bus leave me alone

Outside a mid steak restaurant

I wondered why there were a bunch of oddly tall men around me

lyxal

@RydwolfPrograms I hear that's the college student's dream

Rydwolf Programs

Also TIL the owner of the local aquarium is currently in federal prison for buying an illegal shark

lol it's even the top google result

Unrelated String

04:41

lmao

lyxal

LDQ: Which looks better for raw code in a literate mode? `...#} or #...#}

(everything in the ... is 1 character = 1 command stuff)

so 3 <whatever> 5 5 ×#} add would be like 3 5 5 times add

Unrelated String

leading hash

symmetry and it's more visually obvious

emanresu A

05:15

For regular code in literate mode, why not allow both? Why not let people use times or *?

(as long as they're spaced out)

lyxal

@emanresuA because regular code doesn't recognise times as a single token

Unrelated String

but you could make all regular tokens also valid literate tokens

(also maybe rename literate to verbose, since the first thing i think of hearing literate for a language is literate haskell which is... a different principle)

emanresu A

^^ is what I was trying to say

So allow both 2 + 3 *, 2 add 3 times, and even 2 add 3 *?

lyxal

You can put those in the keywords in the documentation if you so desire

* and + are allowed in keywords

As is =, !, ? and more

Unrelated String

@RydwolfPrograms also come to think of it isn't that kind of red's schtick

mousetail

06:47

@cairdcoinheringaahing The Best of nominations should have ended right?

emanresu A

10:17

→ 5 messages moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

mousetail

12:12

How is this "the best fitting community for the problem"

Ginger

I can't even think of a sarcastic reply to that

lyxal

→ 1 question that doesn't really belong here moved to this seemed to be the most fitting room to move my message. My RO menus should work, I even reset them. But whenever I hit Ctrl and Space to give me RO options, the menu instantly disappears and is only visible for ~10 ms.

@Ginger does the above answer your question? :p

Ginger

⦂|

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail Yep, but for once, I actually went to sleep at a reasonable time last night. Voting will start momentarily

mousetail

12:40

lyxal

the ?! in gxh1=K ?! is because the person recording the moves said "holy hell why didn't I think of that ?!"

caird coinheringaahing

Best of CGCC 2022 - Voting Now Open!

7

I've been nice and given y'all an extra 12 minutes on top of the 2 weeks to vote :P

5

Fatalize

12:59

@WheatWizard Your choice is a vacuous truth. Both "the elements of the empty list satisfy my two-neighbor property" and "the elements of the empty list don’t satisfy my two-neighbor property" are both true because the premise that the empty list has any element is false

Ginger

13:20

@cairdcoinheringaahing I won't forgor 💀 next year, mark my words

caird coinheringaahing

Next year, the process might change

Speaking of, now that the voting is open, think I'll get around to posting an answer to that meta discussion

Wheat Wizard

@Fatalize Yes both are true at the same time, no choice has to be made.

The statement "there is an element which doesn't satisfy" is unequivocally false though since there are no elements.

Fatalize

@WheatWizard So if both are true why include it as truthy only?

Wheat Wizard

Because the other one being true doesn't mean anything.

Fatalize

They both don’t mean anything, that’s the point of vacuous truth

Wheat Wizard

13:27

You are never checking if all elements don't satisfy.

Just that at least one doesn't satisfy.

Fatalize

I don’t get what you want to say by that, but since you already said "both are true" then we should be able to output truthy or falsy for it

Wheat Wizard

Both of the following statements are also true "All elements in the empty list satisfy the property" "there are no green ducks in the empty list", but the second one is irrelevantly true.

mousetail

For all is always true on the empty set, Any is always false

Fatalize

"irrelevantly" doesn’t mean anything

mousetail

Doesn't even matter if the predicate itself is also vicarious or not

Fatalize

13:31

Once again, both "the elements of the empty list satisfy my two-neighbor property" and "the elements of the empty list don’t satisfy my two-neighbor property" are true

so we should be able to output true or false to the challenge

Wheat Wizard

No because the first one is what the challenge is about and the second one is a different statement.

mousetail

No, you can only output false if there exists some element that does not satisfy the two-neighbor property

Wheat Wizard

[2,2,3,1] is falsey even though not every element falsifies the property.

Because there exists an element (1) which fails the property. i.e. not all elements satisfy it.

Fatalize

I don’t see how that changes anything regarding my point

Wheat Wizard

Because you are saying that "the elements of the empty list don’t satisfy my two-neighbor property" means it could go in the falsey category.

But "the elements of x don’t satisfy my two-neighbor property" is not what the falsey category is.

The falsey category is "an element of x doesn't satisfy my two-neighbor property".

Or it is ""the elements of x don't all satisfy my two-neighbor property", an equivalent statement.

Fatalize

13:36

since there’s no element in the empty list it’s still a vacuous truth one way or the other

Wheat Wizard

@Fatalize When you say one way or the other what are the two ways?

Fatalize

you made a choice much like how empty products are 1 for convenience, I was just saying it’s not convenient for all answers and it’s boring to deal with it

Wheat Wizard

I haven't made any choice here.

I accept fully that both the statements "the elements of the empty list satisfy my two-neighbor property" and "the elements of the empty list don’t satisfy my two-neighbor property"

The second statement however, just isn't relevant to the challenge.

Fatalize

It is relevant because it is a sufficient (but not necessary) condition to return a falsy answer, and it is true for the empty list

Seggan

15:43

> In my experience, if a language problem is hard to solve, most of the head-
scratching occurs in the lexer (well, with the exception of C++, which is hard
all over)

This is gold

(source: The Definitive ANTLR 4 Reference, chapter 12)

Rydwolf Programs

16:00

...why is my A51 Gravatar different from my A51 Meta Gravatar

And I can't edit my A51 meta profile itself, it just redirects to edit my A51 profile

Which has the right Gravatar

Seggan

LDQ: what do yall think of this lambda syntax: { (ReturnTypeOptional) arg1, arg2, arg3 -> body }

arg and arrow is optional if it a 0/1 param lambda

i.e. i can do { body } or { it.body }

or { (Int) 1 + 1 }

casting is as so no ambiguity there

Rydwolf Programs

Okay so my A51 hash is my email address

No clue what on earth my A51 meta hash is

mousetail

@Seggan Can the body be more than than one statement?

mathcat

^?

Seggan

@mousetail ofc

mousetail

16:10

Is there implicit return?

Seggan

{ x ->
   print("Hello")
   print(x)
}

@mousetail only for single expression lambdas

Rydwolf Programs

Not a huge fan of that syntax

Seggan

i stole it from kotlin :P

Rydwolf Programs

Is there a reason the {} goes around the whole lambda? I thought Java-backwards-compatible langs just did that to prevent ambiguity of some sort

Seggan

it makes custom syntax nicer

mousetail

16:12

I feel like it would be confusing to have no syntactic difference between single line expressions with implicit return and multi line ones without. You could remove one line but get entirely different behavior

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms kotlin is not java-backwards-compatible

Rydwolf Programs

It makes more sense to do (...) -> ... and (...) -> {...} for multi-line

@Seggan wait what, I thought that was its whole thing

Seggan

no it just compiles to jvm

it tries to maintain binary compat with java

mousetail

I do like something around the whole thing just so there is less order of operations conflict

When passing a lambda as anything except the first argument of a function

Rydwolf Programs

I swear I've heard multiple times that Kotlin's supposed to just be a drop-in replacement for Java

Seggan

16:14

yes because binary compatibility

mousetail

They can use each-others libraries, but are totally different languages. So basically 2 different languages that share a ecosystem

Seggan

theyre not totally different, but yes

Rydwolf Programs

Huh, I must be thinking of a different lang then

Seggan

i like how kotlin can do something.map { it + 2 } or whatever

@RydwolfPrograms groovy?

caird coinheringaahing

@RydwolfPrograms No, I've heard the same

mousetail

16:15

Groovy is also significantly different

caird coinheringaahing

Or rather, it can be an easy replacement for Java, not that it is only just a replacement

Seggan

@mousetail but its nearly backwards syntax compatible with java 8

Rydwolf Programs

^^

Seggan

anyway, this is my main motivation for choosing this syntax

i added the return type hint to the syntax, but i dont expect it to be used

also when(something) { whatever() } is a nice kotlin feature too. its actually a normal function, not some keyword

Rydwolf Programs

You should do that for if and while too

Seggan

16:19

cant do while, i need to eval the param multiple times

and if i do if, how do i implement else?

mousetail

You could do something like while { } { } and it's actually a curried function

Rydwolf Programs

(also I was joking please don't do that :p)

Seggan

@mousetail hurts my eyes :P

i need this language to be at least somewhat usable/familiar lol

mousetail

Loops seem to work completely differently in every language

Seggan

i disagree

while loop workings are pretty much universal

and the variations on for x in y is just syntax

mousetail

16:27

True, it's mostly for loops that are totally different

do while loops are a thing though

Seggan

yeah but they are also the same across langs that have them

mousetail

They varry in whether they need parenthesis and what they consider truthy

Seggan

wdym "what they consider truthy"

mousetail

if you can do while x or explicitly have to do while x!=null and if you do the first what it means. Is [] considered true or false?

Seggan

mm

related LDQ: is do/while worth it?

hyper-neutrino

16:36

IMO yes, cuz the alternative is to do while (true) { ... if (!condition) break; } but if you try using continue in the middle it's very easy to introduce bugs

Rydwolf Programs

Do y'all know if that old story about the DVI hardware virus is real

Seggan

idk, but i know there was a virus that destroyed the bios

iirc that was the only virus that actually harmed the hardware

CIH (computer virus)

CIH, also known as Chernobyl or Spacefiller, is a Microsoft Windows 9x computer virus that first emerged in 1998. Its payload is highly destructive to vulnerable systems, overwriting critical information on infected system drives and, in some cases, destroying the system BIOS. Chen Ing-hau (陳盈豪, pinyin: Chén Yíngháo), a student at Tatung University in Taiwan, created the virus. It was believed to have infected sixty million computers internationally, resulting in an estimated US$1 billion in commercial damages.Chen claimed to have written the virus as a challenge against bold claims of antiviral...

Rydwolf Programs

No it wasn't a virus that damaged hardware, it was a DVI port that supposedly warped other DVI cables, which warped other ports the same way, so it spread

thedailywtf.com/articles/….

Aiden Chow

ugh i just make an answer for two neighbor problem that was recently posted, just to realize theres a source restriction

Rydwolf Programs

Can mods see what my associated email is?

Seggan

16:49

@RydwolfPrograms ah

Rydwolf Programs

@RydwolfPrograms Oh okay so it's as awful as you'd think

SE hasn't supported Gravatar in a while apparently, but Area 51 still does. Area 51 Meta forces you to use Gravatar, like Area 51, but uses the updated code from the rest of Stack Exchange which uses a random/scrambled gravatar ID to prevent your email address from being brute forced

Meaning that there is no way to have a meaningful Area 51 Meta pfp

caird coinheringaahing

@RydwolfPrograms Yes

mousetail

17:13

@RydwolfPrograms Btw I made a much cleaner interface for that site: awesome-bardeen-0d23b7.netlify.app/…

Also the site often posts things with very questionable veracity, so I wouldn't count on it being true. The site basically just repeats user submissions and people submitting code often lie

mathcat

17:54

@Seggan "also known as chernobyl"

What is chernobyl

emanresu A

Lol, I'm the only one who's nominated stuff for four of the best of categories.

Ginger

here's a Dysfunctional program that counts up forever: [0...] ,print map

mathcat

@emanresuA I did want to nominate pajonk, but I couldn't find the SEDE query

also I was a bit lazy

Rydwolf Programs

18:15

forms.gle/t19CeXfr6knZizBz6

I wonder if Google Forms is TC

There's only finitely many places in the form you can be, but you could sorta create an infinite stack with the back button maybe?

I think it's an FSA without the back button, and if you use the back button you can probably make it semi-TC like CSS where it sorta is but it makes the human do a lot of the work

mathcat

@RydwolfPrograms I'd say yes, cause powerpoint has finitely many slides but is TC

Rydwolf Programs

18:34

Anyone have any ideas how I'd byte count a google form

I could make a Google Apps script that serializes all of the available data as JSON, but that feels kind of contrived. Google Drive doesn't let you download forms in any way, and it always shows their size as 1 KB.

Although I now wonder if it is possible to use a Google Form to store arbitrary amounts of data :p

Ginger

oh no

Rydwolf Programs

Well I added a few hundred kilobytes of as to the description and it stopped syncing

Maybe I hit some sort of data limit, and I can gradually remove as to establish a baseline data usage, from which other forms' sizes can be calculated relative to this one

0

A: Implement a Truth-Machine

Google Forms, 3 sections + 1 question Try it online! Google Forms has two features which I believe make it qualify as a (very limited) programming language: Multiple sections, which allow arbitrary rules for which sections redirect to which, allowing for uncontrolled infinite loops The ability t...

Ginger

Dysfunctional truth machine: input int ,{[0...] ,{1 print} map} ,{print} if call

Rydwolf Programs

18:49

I could do a bit-for-bit cat pretty easily

Ginger

for that matter, here's a cat program: input print

Seggan

@Ginger whats this

Ginger

An exciting new language prototype

Rydwolf Programs

forms.gle/nmLANWkCksR2XWQF6

Cat program fwiw

mathcat

19:13

Is it actually allowed to receive input via multiple-choice?

Rydwolf Programs

Standard I/O is dead

mathcat

what

Ginger

~~and we killed it~~

Standard I/O is dead, long live standard I/O!

caird coinheringaahing

@RydwolfPrograms Huh?

Rydwolf Programs

19:28

All it does is arbitrarily restrict what can and can't be used as a language on the site. it's a giant outdated mess. I don't think anybody's paid attention to it for anything other than legitimizing loopholes in like half a decade.

Nobody goes around policing whether or not something uses an approved method because unless it's an egregious enough exploit that it's against the rules anyway, it doesn't matter

We can all pretend it's still something we care about or just...not, and why not go with the second

Rydwolf Programs

19:45

Idk why I keep calling it standard I/O when it's default I/O

I guess my brain's merging it with STDIO

Seggan

20:07

so ive reworked externs in Rol

old:

extern fun print(s: dyn?) = """
    if s == nil then
        print("null")
    else
        print(s)
    end
"""

new:

fun print(x: dyn?) {
    extern (x) {
        if x == nil then
            print("null")
        else
            print(x)
        end
    }
}

what do you think?

Ginger

Dysfunctional program that prints 2014 (in theory): "Happy New Year for all!" ,{charcode} map sum print

Seggan

oh, and i havent explained: an extern in Rol is embedded Lua code, basically Rol's version of C's asm

user

20:26

@Seggan Are you going to parse Lua?

Seggan

20:38

no

thats why theres the parentheses thing, to disable variable mangling

more clear example:

fun subs(s: String, starti: Number, endi: Number): String {
    return extern (s, starti, endi) { string.sub(s, starti + 1, endi) }!
}

mousetail

@RydwolfPrograms There's literally been a new answer this week

A lot of rules are really relavent, for example that trailing whitespace is generally allowed while leading is not

Rydwolf Programs

Which is a dumb rule

mousetail

It's not

a lot of challenges would be trivialized by allowing leading whitespace

Rydwolf Programs

I guarantee you there are langs out there that prepend leading whitespace no matter what

@mousetail That can be true with trailing too

mousetail

True but it's invisible so not really a issue

for the record I'm against that too

Rydwolf Programs

20:46

It's invisible in one specific context

Most languages nowadays aren't run in a shell

mousetail

I think trailing spaces and a single trailing new line should be allowed

Rydwolf Programs

It's stupid to apply rules sensible for a shell to all languages

mousetail

But that's why we have the IO rules

so I don't get to decide stuff on my own

@RydwolfPrograms Also isn't there already a rule that mandatory output generated by the interpreter is ignored?

Seggan

23:05

LDQ: whats your opinion on union/intersection types?

lyxal

23:19

They're okay I guess. They can be a little annoying sometimes when you just want to use a function you know will return one of the types, but I get why they exist and are useful if there's decent pattern matching available

basically, it depends on the level of verbosity you're okay with

(you are talking about things like Either in Scala, right?)

Seggan

no as in like Number | String or Human & User

Bubbler

To me it sounds more like Typescript ones

where you can narrow down union types by doing if (typeof x === something) and such

but it's... gross when you can do plain pattern matching on tagged unions / functional ADTs / Rust enums

lyxal

@Ginger Dysfunctional?

Seggan

@Bubbler yeah i plan to do that as well as the TS style

Bubbler

You don't need TS style union types when you do have one of those I mentioned

Seggan

23:24

erm whats a tagged union?

sounds like a more verbose version of what i described

DLosc

yesterday, by mousetail

Dysfunctional would be a great name for a functional esoteric language

Bubbler

for e.g. Number | String you mentioned, the two cases become {tag: 1, content: Number} and {tag: 2, content: String} respectively

basically how Rust enum works under the hood

Seggan

i dont see how thats different from union types

its just a way to implement them

(side note: i think rust enums are terribly named)

lyxal

hey why are all the links blue?

Bubbler

@Seggan But a tagged union allows much cleaner match x.tag { 1 => ... | 2 => ... }

Plain TS unions require you to use typeof to sort out the cases, which is much more messy

Seggan

23:30

why not match x { is Number -> ... is String -> ... } arguably much clearer

Bubbler

@Bubbler which, with a syntax sugar becomes match x { Case1(num) => ... | Case2(str) => ... }

Also you can't express enum Foo { Case1(Number); Case2(Number) } in TS unions

Seggan

those should be called smth other than enums

anyway, its a single type with multiple values, no?

not a composite type

Bubbler

@Seggan yes

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