The Nineteenth Byte

caird coinheringaahing

00:05

@emanresuA It appears I have already offered a bounty on the cops thread, do you have another post you'd like rewarded?

emanresu A

Uh, this one?

@emanresuA My final writeup for this is almost a third of the size limit lol

caird coinheringaahing

And there goes 600 of my hard earned rep :P

smh, I'm so bad at code golf, look at how much rep I've lost this year

lyxal

300 downvotes, yikes

emanresu A

I was wondering how you hadn't earned any rep all year, then I realised...

caird coinheringaahing

00:49

Damn, Newly Featured Posts is slow today

Ginger

01:08

@ThomasWard hey wait you're not native to this room! :p

Thomas Ward

@Ginger I exist EVERYWHERE! I exist NOWHERE! I AM THE CHAOS! FEAR ME!

may or may not have had a few drinks

@user ye Spectre for example has some HT related vulns

but mitigated or not vulnerable is fine

Ginger

@ThomasWard oh I remember you, you're the guy who chastised me for having my life's work on two un-backed-up MicroSD cards :b

lyxal

@ThomasWard but are you the one who knocks? :p

Ginger

@lyxal I bet he thinks he's a [Big Shot]

Seggan

01:46

norton thinks my http server is a security risk... with a high threat level

lyxal

watch out... you might steal data from yourself!

and then you'll have to ransom yourself to get your stolen data back from yourself

and then you'll have to report yourself to the FBI for cyber-stealing from yourself. Honestly the best play here is to just shut down your server entirely.

user

03:41

@Simd Thank you so much for pointing out my chip supported 64 bit lol

I'm installing openSUSE right now, didn't give me any errors and it's halfway done installing so I'm assuming it works

emanresu A

I assume it's not pronounced "open sussy"?

user

~~If it doesn't work I will forever hate you for making me wipe my beautiful Gentoo setup~~

@emanresuA I think it's soo-zuh

emanresu A

Aww.....

user

Can't Stop the SUSE - A SUSE Music Parody

►

Here, have a video with fake Justin Timberlake pronouncing it the right way

Simd

04:23

@user my pleasure. Please let me know how it goes!

Newly Featured Posts

05:17

19

Q: Scan a ragged list

hgl has a "scan" function called sc. What it does in general is a little bit abstract, so we will just talk about one specific way you can use it. If we want to take a list of integers and get the partial sums of every prefix we can scan with + for sums and 0 as a starting value: ghci> sc (+) 0 ...

UndoneStudios

06:03

Hello

Sandbox Posts

08:10

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Intersection area of two rotated rectangles code-golf math geometry Given two rectangles, which are possibly not in the orthogonal direction, find the area of their intersection. Input You may take the rectangles as input in one of the following ways: The coordinates of the four vertices of th...

New Posts

08:39

0

Q: For Haskell programmers, some curry advice

There are many similarities between Haskell and Curry, therefore many advice for one language also apply to the other. As a result, I'd want to collect some Curry code-golfing advice in this question that would be helpful to someone who has gone through our Haskell advice in great detail. This wo...

arithmetic

mousetail

@NewPosts cv-plz

That link might be spam

Unrelated String

yep it looks to literally just be a copy paste of codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/245961/… with a spam link at the end

and a different title

mousetail

wow -10 score in 8 minutes

UndoneStudios

09:23

@mousetail I've seen worse

lyxal

09:43

@cairdcoinheringaahing can't believe Jelly has tax exempt status and I have to pay code golf taxes smh :p

emanresu A

Don't worry, Vyxal Inc. is technically based in Code Review.

mousetail

@WheatWizard Elm Lotm?

Adám

Imagine if there was a progressive tax on code base size…

mousetail

I wish. I could finally have the time to delete some of the huge amount of unused code at my work

lyxal

10:00

@emanresuA that implies that code review is the Cayman Islands of SE :p

Simd

10:30

hello all!

Ginger

12:29

@lyxal that used to be Windows Phone before Stack Overflow nuked it from orbit

New Posts

13:42

0

Q: Maximum of outer product of integer vectors (in linear time)

Maximum of outer product of integer vectors (in linear time) code-golf math algorithm Our goal is to efficiently find the maximum of a large amount of (redundant) data. We define the outer product of vectors \$A\$ and \$B\$ as a matrix containing the products of all entries of \$A\$ with each ent...

code-golf math algorithm

mathcat

14:16

Quick dupe check, there aren't any challenges about the lehmer matrix, right?

Simd

it looks fun, how did you come across them?

mathcat

I don't even know, I was browsing through random wikipedia articles.

Simd

that sounds fun in itself

caird coinheringaahing

@mathcat Doesnt look like it

mathcat

14:33

Aren't those about the lehmer sequence?

Actually, scrap the idea, it's a bit too trivial.

mousetail

14:44

@Simd why did you delete your old account?

Simd

@mousetail It's a personal thing. I really don't like extended records of my activities online

I should have given it all away in bounties first of course

UndoneStudios

That would sound like you'd change accounts every few months or so

Simd

@UndoneStudios few years

UndoneStudios

anyways, can anyone tell me where exactly the TypeError is occuring in def x(n):t,m,j='','aeiou',0;[t:=t+(m,m.upper())[i<'a'][j%5]and(j:=j+1)if i.lower()in m else(t:=t+i)for i in n];return t

UndoneStudios

15:38

never mind

Simd

chatgpt says you are doing something illegal :)

@TheThonnu You can upload code with a fixed font

The Thonnu

def x(n):
    t = ''
    m = 'aeiou'
    j = 0
    for i in n:
        if i.lower() in m:
            t += (m, m.upper())[i < 'a'][j % 5]
            j += 1
        else:
            t += i
    return t

^ that's what ChatGPT says (very golfed :P)

@Simd thanks

Simd

@TheThonnu np

user

16:03

@Adám But that would unnecessarily penalize codebases that have to be enormous, like the Linux kernel

If only we could quantify the complexity of a codebase

Simd

@user just wait until the new APL version

user

It's been here since March

mousetail

@user Tax would be shared between every linux user though so it wouldn't be that bad per person

user

Why the users? Wouldn't it only be shared by the core devs?

mousetail

Shared between every contributor at least

user

16:06

This isn't like the real world, where a company might increase prices to make up for getting taxed

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail Probably weighted by amount written

Simd

@user I mean the new APL version of the linux kernel :)

mousetail

Linux kernel will secretly mine crypo on every linux machine to pay for it's tax

user

Oh no

Then our only refuge will be BSD

mousetail

Is the code size of BSD smaller?

Simd

16:07

:)

Radvylf Programs

What about microkernels

user

@mousetail No, but its so obscure no one will bother taxing it :P

Simd

I like your thinking!

user

I guess it isn't actually obscure

Servers do use it, right?

Radvylf Programs

I say we develop golfkernel™

mousetail

16:07

Microkernels seem the only reasonably option, BSD will suddenly become popular if linux becomes expensive

If only in terms of power use

Simd

@mousetail they have been the future before :)

user

@RadvylfPrograms Written in a golflang and transpiled to C?

mousetail

They have been the future since forever

@user To Rust of course

user

Why would you transpile to Rust?

Radvylf Programs

^

Transpilers don't make typos :p

user

16:09

Rust's borrow checker is useful if you're using it directly. Compiling to it makes it useless

@RadvylfPrograms They do when I write them :P

Radvylf Programs

Although I guess why transpile to C either, just use LLVM or whatever

user

True

Transpiling to C may be easier for some languages though

mousetail

Do you want manual memory management in your golfing language though?

user

Who said anything about memory management?

Let the garbage pile up :P

mousetail

I think rust-style borrow checker with maybe some kind of auto boxing system might be golfiest

auto clone, auto copy

user

16:13

When the program ends, the memory gets freed. No need to worry until then :P

You could also use the type system to avoid cycles and then use refcounting

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail The transpiler'd handle that

user

Closures would be tricky but still doable

Radvylf Programs

And Rust isn't garbage collected anyway, you'd still need memory management

mousetail

If it's a microkernel we could just periodically restart modules to free their memory

user

And instead of defragmentation you just completely reinstall the entire system every once in a while

Radvylf Programs

16:15

Let's just require that freeing unused memory is a module

The kernel wouldn't worry about it

user

And use something like the Boehm GC?

Radvylf Programs

16:27

That or defragment the RAM and inject code into the kernel to fix the pointers so they point to the new locations

Mumble mumble virtual memory mumble

user

There's a stupid but easy-to-implement GC where you only use half your memory at any one point, and when you start running out of space, you stop everything, copy everything over to the other half of your memory, and start again, leaving the dead objects behind in the old half

Radvylf Programs

Couldn't you use all of your RAM and use xor-swapping instead of copying

user

CMQ: What is the most cursed approach to garbage collection? (not doing GC at all and letting the garbage pile up doesn't count)

@RadvylfPrograms What's xor-swapping?

Radvylf Programs

@user All of your RAM is a linked list; to access the pointer 0x12ab, you follow the linked list to that index. Any time you free up RAM, it's a linked list, who cares

@user Just a way to swap two values without using a temporary value

You'd just copy the second half of RAM into the first, using swaps, then you'd have the first half of RAM on the right, out of order, which you'd reorganize

mousetail

@user Inverse reference counting. If the amount of objects that do not use yours equals the total number of objects, delete it

Radvylf Programs

16:37

@RadvylfPrograms (this is actually how I implemented RAM/GC in a brainfuck-based virtual machine I made where performance didn't matter)

mousetail

@user "Scream test" reference counting. Copy the entire state of RAM. Then delete a random object. Then run the code. If it errors, the object was important. Restore RAM and try a different object.

user

That's absolutely beautiful

What about user input that's been passed before it errored, though?

mousetail

Add it to a queue somewhere so it can be multiplexed to the new iteration

If your memory runs out again though you overwrite the snapshot so better hope that object is used in the meantime or it's gone foevever

Ginger

16:52

@RadvylfPrograms smallest possible kernel that can run a Linux-built program, actually not a bad idea :p

caird coinheringaahing

@user Don't collect the garbage, reallocate it to memory being used by the program

Ginger

@user Easy: When RAM is getting full, write the entire thing to disk, clear RAM, and load in every possible combination of objects in order until the program doesn't crash

Or, when RAM is getting full start writing objects to disk, oldest ones first, and retrieve them if they're requested

mousetail

@Ginger That's just swap though

Already how it works

caird coinheringaahing

@user As soon as RAM starts to get full, just wipe the entire computer's memory

Ginger

OOH I JUST HAD AN AWFUL IDEA ONE SECOND

Okay hear me out: Paper Swap

When RAM fills up the computer starts printing memory on actual paper using a printer, one RAM page per physical sheet, and when it needs a page you have to put that sheet of paper on the scanner to load it back in

probably using some kind of matrix data representation or smth

mousetail

17:02

What about as punch cards?

Ginger

also, just broke 6k site-wide rep!

mousetail

Congrats

Ginger

@mousetail you can't really print those, and I like how paper pages can work as physical pages

mousetail

True

Ginger

this is a godawful idea and I'm trying to resist implementing it

mousetail

17:03

There are specialized devices that can "print" punch cards

Ginger

I don't own one (also punch cards have lower data storage than paper)

mousetail

@Ginger It would be quite a lot of effort, I'd like to see it in action

True

How big is a "page" of RAM?

Ginger

depends

quick someone find that guy that made a paper on bad swap ideas

mousetail

Like killobytes, megabytes, gigabytes?

So 1 MB

Ginger

wait no one second

according to Wikipedia the smallest possible page size for a 64-bit processor is 4KiB

mousetail

17:05

Oh that's reasonable

You could fit that base64 encoded in a smallish font on A4

Ginger

that's 4096 bytes, or 32768 bits

@mousetail no, this idea would use a matrix-barcode-type-thing for easy readability

mousetail

That would make it even easier

You could even use color for extra depth

Ginger

okay, a Data Matrix code can store 1556 bits of data, so one page would only require a miniscule 22 of them! :p

each code is 144px square

Hannah Williams

hnfuygedhfncsueitghsfneuij

Ginger

uh

mousetail

17:10

@HannahWilliams Hi

Ginger

Hi???

Hannah Williams

sup dude

Ginger

Welcome to TNB!

Hannah Williams

thanks

mousetail

@HannahWilliams Is this some new golfing language?

Ginger

17:11

If you haven't already, please read the chatiquette.

Hannah Williams

no

mousetail

Hmmm someone should make one where that prints "Hello, World!"

Hannah Williams

heehee

Ginger

anyway: how many pixels can an A4 sheet of paper hold?

Hannah Williams

idk

Ginger

17:12

2480 x 3508 at 300 ppi

hmmm

mousetail

Quite a lot in theory but scanners are typically terrible

Ginger

yeah lol

Hannah Williams

oof

mousetail

You probably want a lot of redundancy so if the scanner just overexposes one corner for no reason you can still read what it says

Ginger

so what's the best way to fit 22 144x144 squares onto an A4 sheet of paper?

they can store 1556 bits, but we'll store 1024 of data per code and have the rest be metadata

Hannah Williams

17:13

cats

Ginger

uhhhhhh

yes???

Hannah Williams

doogs

mousetail

Of course, place the bocks in the shape of a cat and a dog

Ginger

Are you okay???

or just spamming

because we don't allow spam here

Hannah Williams

i am scared

Ginger

17:15

~~WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF??? ACCORDING TO [[Encyclopedia of]] [[Being Afraid]] THERE'S NOTHING TO FEAR EXCEPT~~

Hannah Williams

i am about to sit next to my crush at lunch and he knows I like him

Ginger

...

Please discuss this in Off-Topic TNB

Hannah Williams

oki\

mousetail

Weren't we gonna make OTTNB official?

Ginger

eh

brb

UndoneStudios

17:42

@TheThonnu When dzaima asked, it produced slightly incorrect code which I fixed and then golfed

A frightening experiment of AI's reliability

~~Also we had an argument in the Discord which we kinda fixed~~

user

@Ginger This is just swap space but worse

Ginger

@user ...which is why I called it "Paper Swap" :p

user

Although I guess in this context, worse is better :P

Oh

I'm dumb, ignore me

UndoneStudios

What's the context here?

just.... want to know

Ginger

46 mins ago, by Ginger

When RAM fills up the computer starts printing memory on actual paper using a printer, one RAM page per physical sheet, and when it needs a page you have to put that sheet of paper on the scanner to load it back in

user

17:48

I asked a CMQ asking for cursed ways to do garbage collection

@mousetail Could one of the ROs add it to the room description if OTTNB really is official?

Ginger

oh no not this again

user

Or maybe the chatiquette could be updated

@Ginger Not what again?

UndoneStudios

Making OTTNB official

user

Does anyone have write access to the chatiquette repository?

UndoneStudios

I think we've failed in that

Ginger

17:50

we already had a whole discussion about the officiality of OTTNB

user

How so?

Ginger

and it got nowhere

user

Oh

UndoneStudios

^

user

Link?

Ginger

17:50

one sec

UndoneStudios

one of the few Ginger failures

nothing personal

caird coinheringaahing

7

Q: Should we officially recognize Off-Topic TNB?

Recently, TNB conducted an experiment in which we created a new room specifically for off-topic discussion, which resulted in a marked decrease in the amount of off-topic content in TNB. This room has now been around and active for over five months. Should we "officially recognize" it and add it ...

discussion chat

Ginger

yeah that one

UndoneStudios

^

user

It seems like most people want it to be official, given the upvotes on mousetail's answer

UndoneStudios

17:51

Although I still don't understand what exactly "officially recognizing" means

user

Putting it in the room description, I guess

Ginger

> Should we "officially recognize" it and add it to the room description for TNB?

UndoneStudios

Oh ok

The Thonnu

ChatGPT knows how to golf?!

UndoneStudios

@TheThonnu Welcome to the New Age

caird coinheringaahing

17:58

@TheThonnu We've had 2 ChatGPT posts here, and neither were golfy :P

UndoneStudios

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh that will boost up the case for Adam's MSE post

user

Yeah it's not very good at golfing and its attempts at golfing may break the code

caird coinheringaahing

@UndoneStudios The status-declined one?

UndoneStudios

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah

The Thonnu

It's definitely quite far from perfect but at least it sort of knows how to

UndoneStudios

17:59

Wish it wasn't yet status-declined

Ok peace off

Ginger

just got Mortarboard on CGSE.Meta!

Adám

18:20

@UndoneStudios and @all Should I add an "Edit:" section listing sites that are being bothered by ChatGPT answers?

mathcat

Wow, how did you get 10k on meta that fast, iirc you reached 5k a month ago.

Ginger

@mathcat what

oh, adam

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám Given that the answer is basically "all", I don't think it's necessary

I think we were the last "big" site in the network to get ChatGPT posts

Ginger

> "big"

caird coinheringaahing

We have multiple questions on the HNQ at any given time, and have decent engagement stats compared to a lot of the ~180 sites on the network

Tho, we have been on a downswing lately, we used to be at around 1k visits/day

Adám

18:32

@cairdcoinheringaahing But maybe having a list that quickly grows to over a hundred would make them reconsider?

Radvylf Programs

@UndoneStudios It would mostly be symbolic

Adám

if /s is for sarcasm and /jk for jokes, how about /se for dispair?

Radvylf Programs

But it would come with things like a link in the room description, maybe an official meta announcement, and probably would be officially RO'd by the TNB RO team instead of just de facto RO'd by them

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám I doubt very much they'll reconsider

Adám

Hence "/se"

caird coinheringaahing

18:34

The official policy is "We'll leave it up to the sites", which is a good call IMO

Note that the posts here that were suspected of being ChatGPT weren't deleted for that reason, they were deleted for being low-quality and for not answering the challenges they answered.

Seggan

why dont we ban chatgpt?

Ginger

because then when it becomes sentient we all die

Seggan

thats a case for the opposite :P

caird coinheringaahing

@Seggan We haven't needed a site policy so far

Radvylf Programs

We don't need to IMO. If it can golf well I invite it to do so :p

It's not like other sites where it could be actively misleading

Seggan

18:43

but it cant golf

Ginger

@Seggan not yet...

Radvylf Programs

If the code works it works, if it doesn't it's just a bad post regardless of its source

caird coinheringaahing

If it becomes a problem, then we'll bring it up on meta. Otherwise, continue to flag, downvote and VLQ posts regardless of if they're chatGPT or just normal crap

Ginger

Remember Dennis? Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. :p

Seggan

tbh i wish dennis never left

caird coinheringaahing

18:44

That said, if you do suspect a post if from ChatGPT, please do say so in your flags so we get an idea of how big of an issue it is or isnt

Radvylf Programs

On DIY or Cooking a bad ChatGPT answer could cause someone to electrocute their cat or get botulism. On CGCC it's just another non-working post, no harm.

Adám

Is GitHub Copilot only trained on GitHub-hosted code or also on code from, say, SO?

mathcat

Apparently ChatGPT thinks Branf and Piet are golfing languages :P

Radvylf Programs

Banning ChatGPT on those sites reduces the amount of work; if it's ChatGPT, delete. On our site, it's pretty much an equal amount of work to check if it works or if it's ChatGPT.

Seggan

@Adám i think gh

DLosc

19:23

@RadvylfPrograms The other concern I've seen mentioned elsewhere is that ChatGPT answers should say they're generated by ChatGPT, in order to follow correct attribution practices.

On CGCC, I think there's been a general policy of "if you didn't write it, you should make it community wiki"--I wonder if that applies to ChatGPT?

emanresu A

@DLosc That's explicitly not the case

There's a relevant meta somewhere

caird coinheringaahing

If you didn't create the post/code, you must provide attribution. It's recommended you post as CW, but not required

Radvylf Programs

@DLosc Funnily enough I was actually just discussing the question of ChatGPT and attribution with my AP Research teacher (in the context of education)

My position is that GPT and other AI text/art programs should basically count as people in terms of attribution, both for training and for using their output

user41805

19:51

@Ginger nothing's stopping you to try and beat the existing sed answer :) if you are interested, have a look on sed's tips page for generating decimal numbers

Ginger

@user41805 yeah, I just thought that answer was clever and it kinda worked :p

user41805

20:17

opinion: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/256211 should have received a comment by the close voters - the poster's new to ppcg and even posted to the sandbox

lyxal

22:15

@TheThonnu if only it was that easy for more complex problems :p

Sometimes you'll give it an answer, and it'll golf some of it, you say "golf more" and then it ungolfs what it just golfed and golfs something else about it

Like a game of golfing cat and mouse

caird coinheringaahing

has anyone given chatgpt a jelly answer to golf?

lyxal

No, because that'd be hell to prompt engineer. :p

It's bad enough trying to get it to do an established esolang like brainfuck, and even worse trying to teach it a standard stack language

I can only imagine the circles you'd be going in trying to explain tacit to it :p

DLosc

2010: Computers are way better than humans at chess, but at least we can still win at Go
2030: Computers are way better than humans at Python golf, but at least we can still win at Jelly golf

caird coinheringaahing

The disrespect

Unrelated String

holy shit

caird coinheringaahing

22:24

That's my Jelly Enigma machine

Unrelated String

ask it what would be valid jelly code

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString Okay, it's spouting some nonsense

Unrelated String

let's go

caird coinheringaahing

I'll grab a screenshot in a second

Okay, so it isn't entirely wrong, but the second program is complete nonsense that looks more like J?

emanresu A

Lyxal almost managed to teach it vyxal a while ago

caird coinheringaahing

22:28

lyxal

@emanresuA a very small subset at that

emanresu A

The "+/" is correct, the string literal... looks correct, are the delimiters right?

caird coinheringaahing

Yes

But the +/ would go last, you wouldn't use a literal string, and you'd use S instead of +/

emanresu A

Yeah lol

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing That's actually correct J code for the given problem. And Jelly is inspired by J, so…

emanresu A

22:29

Copilot vaguely understands vyxal

caird coinheringaahing

And +/1+1$10 outputs 0210 given no arguments

emanresu A

@cairdcoinheringaahing Can you try asking it to do this in vyxal?

caird coinheringaahing

> I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with a programming language called "Vyxal." Could you provide more information about this language, or perhaps you meant to ask about a different programming language?

emanresu A

:/

caird coinheringaahing

I'd do a screenshot, but that's effort for such short text

Radvylf Programs

22:33

Well I mean it doesn't know Vyxal right? if emanresu had to teach it a bunch to get it to work?

I'd imagine not much literature about Vyxal got included in the training dataset

emanresu A

With copilot, it picked it up while I was writing unit tests

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why do people tend to post screenshots of ChatGPT instead of quoting in text?

caird coinheringaahing

For the code section ones, it's a bit hard to do

lyxal

@Adám because the copy paste support is really bad

You try and select the conversation but then it goes and includes things like your email and the time of each message

Which aren't visible when talking to it but are there on the page

Meaning you need to take time to edit those out while a screenshot is just easier

@emanresuA only when it has context

@emanresuA of course it will - it has lots of other data in the file to learn from

And it'll only know it in that context too

emanresu A

22:49

Good point

lyxal

even then, it doesn't actually "know" Vyxal or Jelly or any other language it purports to know. It simply writes stuff that it thinks should be statistically completed based on what it's been fed. It may look like it "understands" code snippets, but it's simply the most appropriate/probable token generation from the tokens you give it

Unrelated String

i think the real distinction here is that it doesn't approximate a systematic rules-based understanding of them, just the end results

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