The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:24

@DLosc sgtm

Seggan

01:41

Rol is now public

emanresu A

> Still no working programs yet

Should it have been?

Seggan

?

the transpiler is not finished yet

caird coinheringaahing

I think emanresu's asking, if it isn't finished/no working programs work, why make it public now instead of once its finished?

Seggan

why not?

yall can critique my code

caird coinheringaahing

@Seggan I'm with you there, I've got public repos for languages I haven't even started writing code for :P

lyxal

01:46

@cairdcoinheringaahing and so others can contribute as well

0 '

02:14

Super proud of the golf I just made on my Prolog answer here. My previous solution was actually incorrect, caused by the predicate that was supposed to only find the index of a list element also appending it to the list if it wasn't in there already (Prolog is so much fun). The way it was doing it was mostly correct so I was able to tweak it so the lookup up predicate was also doing the job of the code that was supposed to handle the appending.

Unrelated String

oh nice

south

@0 ' amazing pfp lol, takes me back

0 '

thanks

DialFrost

Why did wheat wizard change to grain ghost :(

emanresu A

Halloween

DialFrost

02:23

Ah, but actually wheat wizard still fits :3

caird coinheringaahing

Pretty sure WW's been GG over Halloween for the past 3 or 4 years now

DialFrost

Been gg?

caird coinheringaahing

Grain Ghost

DialFrost

Ah

Aiden Chow

02:45

whats grain ghost

DialFrost

Anyone willing to comment on my sandbox post thx

caird coinheringaahing

03:12

Ngl, I find it somewhat frustrating that when discussed on meta whether OTTNB should even be created, the consensus was very much no, the ROs should encourage off-topic convos to move elsewhere, and yet the room was made anyway and kinda just accepted as "part" of TNB :/

thejonymyster

@cairdcoinheringaahing do you think that the room's creation has had an overall positive, negative, or neutral effect on the site / community

caird coinheringaahing

I know, y'all like OTTNB, and I guess you could consider it a success (jury's still out for me), but the actual creation of the room was very "hmmmm"

thejonymyster

the reason i ask: how can we account for situations in which voting ends up giving us a result we dont actually want

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster Neither. I think it's the wrong solution, to a non-existent problem. But, it's existence has somewhat served the community better than expected

@thejonymyster This is inherently a contradiction. Voting will show the majority opinion, so a result that the community wants will be given by the voting

thejonymyster

evidently not

we vote no, we got yes, we liked yes. this does not bode well for democracy :P

caird coinheringaahing

03:17

@thejonymyster Are you sure? We only use OTTNB rather than the proposed solutions because someone created it, against the meta consensus. Democratic processes don't work when subverted

thejonymyster

i'm not sure, but i dont know how to test the alternative :?

caird coinheringaahing

The meta consensus would have been tested by literally doing nothing, aside from people being more vigilant in stopping off-topic discussion here. Whether that be by not talking in the first place, stopping off-topic convos as they arise, or just moving to other rooms.

thejonymyster

i guess the thing about "moving to other rooms" is that ottnb... is another room :P but idk a lot about site culture lol

caird coinheringaahing

Unfortunately, it couldn't be tested because the room got created "against" the will of the people

thejonymyster

right

i guess my main point is... what do we do if something goes against the will of the people, but turns out ok

that seems like... good and bad at the same time

and im trying to get to grips with it basically. can we do anything?

do we have to settle for it because it exists, or can it be reverted due to being created undemocratically?

should it be? etc

caird coinheringaahing

03:22

I wouldn't have minded if we tested it, and came to the consensus that actually, one central off topic room is the best option. I dislike the fact that we had a meta discussion, arrived at a consensus, and someone went "Nah, screw that. Here's a room for off-topic, go talk there"

@thejonymyster Yeah, the past is the past. I'm just commiserating

thejonymyster

damn

@AidenChow a username, "Wheat Wizard has been Grain Ghost over halloween for the..."

lyxal

While it's nice having a room where I can post stupid stuff without worrying about interrupting conversation, I do agree with caird that the room creation was a bit :thonk:

I mean, the answer on the meta post suggesting the room creation doesn't even have a positive net score

lyxal

03:54

You know what a good idea for a golfing language or practical language would be? When indexing something not in the list, (like lst[7] on a list of length 4), fill the list with 0s or some other value to make the index work

and it'd be really cool with 2d/3d/whatever d lists

like lst[2, 4] would go and fill in any 0s in a sort of square matrix fashion

obviously modular indexing is a better option, but I still think filling with 0s would be awesome in some cases

Unrelated String

declarative failure is also a good one

lyxal

declarative failure?

Unrelated String

zero choices

backtracking

lyxal

I'mma need a little more explanation

Unrelated String

prolog

lyxal

04:01

> *asks for clarification*
"Prolog"

If I was any good at prolog I wouldn't need to ask for an explanation now would I

DialFrost

04:21

Anyone think this is ready?

AviFS

I gotta be honest: No bounty on the LotM? I'm missing some incentive.

@lyxal How about... depending on the operation you were using, it'll get filled in with the identity under that operation.

lyxal

It's a standard index though

AviFS

So ...+list[2,4] would fill in with 0s, but ...*lst[2,4] would fill in with 1s.

lyxal

Ah

I see

That would be cool

AviFS

You could probably do a lot of other hacky, golfy, crazy stuff in the implementation with all the other functions that don't have defined identities.

@lyxal By the way, hihi!

lyxal

04:33

Heyo :p

AviFS

⍤//

@lyxal @cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, on the other hand, you don't really need the community's consensus to make another room. We make rooms all the time.

thejonymyster

lol

i will add imo that that does validate the "maybe we should hold off on recognizing it officially" mindset

lyxal

@AviFS well of course, but if it's going to be treated as somewhat official and a regularly referred to place, it should have some sort of positive community agreement

thejonymyster

looks like we agree :P

lyxal

I think so

AviFS

04:43

@lyxal I haven't been in on this discussion from the beginning; I'm totally jumping in! I guess I missed it-- what makes it somewhat official?

lyxal

A meta consensus with positive net score

That would make it official

I say it's somewhat official because it's become the de facto go-to room for off topic

AviFS

No, that I get. But who's saying OTTNB is official as is?

@RadvylfPrograms Oh, I see.

@lyxal Yeah, I agree. Whether we agreed to make it in the first place seems irrelevant.

lyxal

@AviFS no one, it's sort of an unwritten kind of official but not really official because no one has said anything otherwise

AviFS

It's the recommended place to go for off-topic conversation. And it's where a TNB RO is going to redirect you.

lyxal

@AviFS it was actually originally just supposed to be an experiment that lasted a week or so

AviFS

04:47

In that sense, yeah, it's recognized as serving a distinct purpose for TNB. On the other hand, we have tons of chat rooms in the CGCC network. I'm not sure if that should be "more official" than the others, and if so, on what grounds.

Like we have an "official" Vyxal room, an "official" Haskell room, an "official" APL room...

thejonymyster

what we need is an official room to discuss which rooms are official or not

officially

AviFS

But uh, if those other rooms aren't RO'd by TNB's ROs, I'm not sure why OTTNB should be.

@thejonymyster hahahahaha

lyxal

@AviFS Well those don't require community consensus from the community - the orchard and vyxal chat were made by people who are heavily involved with the language. OTTNB impacts the whole community

AviFS

Actually, yeah, that seems pretty clear to me. Responding to Radvylf's question: Yes, put it in the chatiquette. (It's the de facto room you will be politely asked to exit to.) No, don't have it be RO'd by TNB ROs. It should have its own ROs like every other room.

lyxal

Making it official (that is, recognise it in the description of this room, as well as on meta, and saying that it's the off topic room) requires community consensus

Like right now, someone could theoretically create a competitor to OTTNB and make that the de facto off topic room

Currently, OTTNB is an off topic suggestion rather than a definitive rule

AviFS

04:51

@lyxal Well, I feel like we can answer the RO question pretty easily. Not everyone who's an RO of TNB wants to be an RO of OTTNB. Clearly. So separate the two. They can overlap, just like ROs do in all other rooms. But there's no compelled implication from a TNB RO to an OTTNB RO.

(And since the stakes are lower there, it's a fine place for ROs-in-training to test out before they are ROs in TNB.)

lyxal

I'm not talking about ROs

Those can be sorted out later

AviFS

Yeah, I know. That's just one of the things Redwolf asked.

@lyxal Yeah, I'm personally less compelled by all this. But I'm happy to wait out the community consensus.

lyxal

I'm talking about whether OTTNB should stay as a suggestion that's basically followed as if it was official or whether it should be an objectively enforceable thing

AviFS

As you say, it's de facto, rather than de jure. But in the meantime, I don't see how that makes a difference in our day-to-day usage.

I'm happy to continue as I do, until it becomes de jure.

lyxal

And that'll probably be what happens until such a time when it's evaluated that the room is needed as an actually enforceable rule

AviFS

04:56

@lyxal Right, so since the distinction between those two is so subtle, it feels almost philosophical, unless I'm missing something. If we want to get it officially approved by the community, I see no harm in doing that. I just don't see things changing in the meantime. And no matter the result of the votes, I don't think the status of the rooms can change all that much.

@lyxal But like, what's the enforceable rule here?

Go to OTTNB, as opposed to another off-topic room?

lyxal

It's more of a formality really

AviFS

@lyxal But what's the enforceable rule?

lyxal

@AviFS this

OTTNB unless there's a more appropriate room

AviFS

Maybe caird has some thoughts here, since it sounded like he had some more discomfort with this. But I'm not seeing the difference here.

@0' Hey!! What's your new name?

0 '

Uhhh, I don't have a new name

lyxal

05:02

@AviFS Imo you're right. Officially recognising it is just a formality and messages can still be moved to other off topic rooms if the one moving messages so chooses

AviFS

@lyxal Yeah, so whether that's we do without it being a rule, or whether that's what we do with it being a rule, feels like a formality of the highest order :p

@lyxal Agreed. We'll have to wait for @cairdcoinheringaahing, though.

@0 ' Hmm, I wasn't sure! I think you're not who I thought :p

So many of those comic strip avatars, haha

0 '

Ahhhh, I see, yeah there do seem to be a few Calvin and Hobbes fans around here.

AviFS

@0 ' I'm a Calvin and Hobbes fannnnn! No wonder it looked familiar!!

But also, lots of black and white (sketched) comics as avatars.

thejonymyster

i wish i was cool enough to have a comic strip avatar but i made a sona when i was like 9 opr something and ive been locked in ever since

lyxal

Sona?

thejonymyster

05:08

(per)sona

AviFS

'night!!

thejonymyster

like a fursona but not a furry

AviFS

@thejonymyster never would've guess that one, haha

@thejonymyster oh yeah, that definitely helps :p

lyxal

@thejonymyster ah see I figured it was that but didn't know if there was something else called a "sona"

AviFS

@lyxal i thought the champion from league of legends

thejonymyster

05:08

lol

AviFS

@thejonymyster yup, LoL ; )

thejonymyster

ok i walked into that one

AviFS

hehe

lyxal

@thejonymyster you can always change - I used to feel locked into having a flowey pfp and then something that was deltarune related. But then I used ai and got the letter x :p

thejonymyster

last avatar change was i added a random blue highlight to my discord avatar to joke along with some other users who had predominantly blue icons

AviFS

05:11

to clarify for others, it's the acronym: lol = league of legends

thejonymyster

it was all like "blue gang" and i was like yeah dawg me too

"what yea ive always had this"

its really subtle too so you really cant tell unless you zoom in, so i have plausible deniability, its great

(not this avatar (yet))

AviFS

@lyxal oh wait, that's lyxal!

smh

all this time-- your pfp seriously threw me off

i thought you were lyricly, for some reason

hi lyxal ⍤//!

(alright, i'm off!)

lyxal

@AviFS heyo :p

AviFS

@lyxal heyo, and good night!

lyxal

Didn't get me

AviFS

05:18

shame

i got me

i'm watching it right now

thejonymyster

But will this get you?

Aiden Chow

@thejonymyster dang u got me, didnt even click the hyperlink but u made me look

lyxal

@thejonymyster no, because I was too busy browsing r/okbuddychicanery to notice :p

thejonymyster

made you look is the ultimate gotcha cause you dont even have to trick anyone you just have to be deceitful

lyxal

the ultimate rickroll

DialFrost

06:09

@thejonymyster got me

DialFrost

06:30

erm guys

how come I see a blue circle next to my pfp

New Posts

2

Q: Partial Fractions

Given an input of a string, output the partial fraction in string form. The partial fraction decomposition of a rational fraction of the form where f and g are polynomials, is its expression as: Input: In the form of an entire string where it is a list of the coefficients: [[1, 4], [1, 6, 9]] ...

mousetail

09:06

@NewPosts I have no idea how to appraoch this so I hope someone else answers first so I can copy them

DialFrost

09:28

@mousetail Lmao

Btw guys, when can I post my own solution if I managed to find one?

A few months ago, someone told me wait a few days, but if theres a lot of answers already then you can post sooner

mousetail

I personally see no reason not to, as long as it's genuinely golfed, and not created before the challenge. There was some issues with the other challenge where the challenge seemed to be designed specifically to show off OPs solution which would be a bad thing

DialFrost

ic

The problem is u cant tell if it was created b4 the challenge

btw, I also have 0 idea how to solve my own question

I know how to solve it with math, not programming :D

mousetail

Yea it's very tricky, I was looking at wikipedia and there where like 6 possible methods but all highly complex

Nothing but respect for you if you solve it yourself

DialFrost

Honestly, the way my teachers taught it is super simple

I think I can solve it if i rewrite it on paper

actually I'll be surprised if no one solves this

but if there are few answers, I'll give a full depth explanation on how to do so :3

mousetail

Trick is to make a lot of mistakes, then need to edit every 12 hours or so to bump it to the top again

DialFrost

09:37

lmao

Ok, I found a major problem

Partial fractions is NOT a one-way solve thing

it has multiple cases

damn it

Unless I restrict some cases

ok hmm I think I can solve it, but itll take me days

mousetail

You can just say it needs to be fully reduced

even if it's not actually the globally optimal reduction

DialFrost

No like, there's different ways to reduce

as in

You have to follow different rules to get to the answer

There's 3 cases, linear factors, repetaed linear factors, and quadractic factor which cant be factorised

I'll edit the qns to implement this

You can read the question again afterwards

See if you understand

@mousetail Edited

emanresu A

@DialFrost Same...

DialFrost

09:53

:(

mousetail

I'm hoping for a 80 byte vyxal answer for my training set

DialFrost

lmao

Should I allow the inputs to be auto-factorised

else this challenge is going to be wayyyy to hard

mousetail

IDK seems a bit late for such a major change

DialFrost

@mousetail its not major

mousetail

OK IDK

DialFrost

09:56

actually I'm not sure

ahhhh

mousetail

Was this sandboxed?

DialFrost

yes

emanresu A

CMC: Cosmic ray detector

DialFrost

@mousetail I have fully explained the challenge I think

I used equations to help visualise, since it's near impossible to do so without looking for reference

Do you think its ok? You seem to think it's not ready :P

DialFrost

10:24

If anyone manages to solve this quickly, you are a genius

lyxal

Can the output be as an equation instead of lists?

And can input be an equation too?

mousetail

@emanresuA volatile int i;main(){while(!i){}}

DialFrost

@lyxal er

no

unfortunately

that would change the rules completely

sorry

lyxal

10:39

Dang

DialFrost

10:52

me realising how insanely difficult my problem is :D

@lyxal You know how to solve it?

lyxal

Nah, it'd just be a little easier in languages with symbolic math support

DialFrost

That's very true XD

What I already reached my rep cap for today already? :(

If someone manages to solve it and in an ingenious way, I'll probably set up a bounty

Ginger

bimgus bomgus

DialFrost

Hiya ginger and fatalize!

Ginger

hi!

graffe

11:04

Is jupyterlab still what I should be using used of jupyter notebook?

Ginger

huh?

graffe

At one point I was told that jupyterlab was the future

Ginger

??????

graffe

And that Jupyter notebook was stale and old

DialFrost

Idk

I use notebook

Uty!

graffe

11:05

Me too :)

Uty?

DialFrost

up to you :3

graffe

Maybe jupyterlab is actually much better?

DialFrost

gotta work on your slang and abbrev :3 hehe

@graffe Hm possible

I never tried it

graffe

True that!

@DialFrost me neither !

There is also visual studio code which I am told is great

DialFrost

CSV?

VSC*

hmm I tried that b4

it seems ok

graffe

11:07

CSV is not that cool :)

DialFrost

Haven't played around with it yet though

@graffe Hehe good one

graffe

@DialFrost :)

Ginger

csv is bad, use json

graffe

I just want to know what it will give me that a plain text editor doesn't

DialFrost

@graffe Hmm

idk

graffe

11:08

@Ginger and the Argonauts?

Ginger

~~nothing, use IDLE: The Development Environment Of Kings~~

@graffe >:(

graffe

:)

lyxal

@Ginger whomst is this Jason and why the hell is he in my code?

Ginger

he's an associate of mine. We're confiscating your chicanery.

lyxal

Not my 99.1% pure chicanery! How will I orchestrate people falling from billboards now?!

Ginger

11:11

You won't! All you can do is [BANANA PEEL] them like a normal person!

lyxal

Guess I'll just have to stick to switching numbers, making sure it's one after Magna Carta

Ginger

precisely

lyxal

Just gotta go find an idiot at a copy store to lie for me and to cover my tracks

mousetail

@Ginger JSON is very verbose though

I use struct.pack() to store all my data

graffe

Wtf is an Argonaut?

mousetail

11:17

The argonoutroad is close to where I live

graffe

Good to know

mousetail

Why did you ask?

graffe

Because of all the JSON chat

Wherever there is a JSON there is an Argonaut close behind

mousetail

How do you pronounce JSON? Like Jayson or like J-son

Fatalize

@mousetail …isn’t that the same?

graffe

11:31

The seem the same to me too

mousetail

There was a whole argument on reddit about it, there is a subtle difference

graffe

Is the difference which syllable you stress?

DialFrost

@mousetail I prefer this

prefer J-son I mean*

graffe

(sorry, more than one Argonaut. They never travel alone.)

Or as in "my son is called Jay"?

Welcome Jay son

which is pronounced sun now

DialFrost

lmao

mousetail

11:35

J-Sun makes sense since JSON stands for Javascript Object Notation, named after Javascript, which is named after Java which was originally built by Sun micro-systems before being acquired by oracle.

graffe

What has JavaScript got to do with Java?

mousetail

Nothing, it was named "JavaScript" to trick Java fanboys into thinking it was cool

Worlds worst marketing stunt

graffe

I like it. Can I do something similar to make people think I am cool?

mousetail

Yes

I'm especially a big fan of AssemblyScript which is neither assembly nor a script language

PyGamer0

assemblyscript?

mousetail

11:38

It's a javascript-like language designed to be compiled to webassembly, similar to cython

PyGamer0

o-o

graffe

Hi, I am MorganFreemanScript...hmm.... doesn't quite work :(

mousetail

Make it FreeScript to attract Dutch people

graffe

I couldn't even think of anyone cool!

@mousetail that's a good idea

mousetail

(I'm dutch myself so I can make that joke)

graffe

11:48

can anyone clever work out how to download the video at iwitness.usc.edu/sites/tattooedtorah ?

youtube-dl seems to completely fail to do it sadly

DialFrost

@lyxal im getting there! :3

is it alright if I post my answer either today or tomorrow?

Or do I have to wait longer

mousetail

@graffe There is a blob url, you can create a download link for it in the console

graffe

@mousetail could you teach me how to do that please

I don't know about blob urls etc

mousetail

:62174417 Something like this:

  const link = document.createElement("a");

  // Set link's href to point to the Blob URL
  link.href = blobUrl;
  link.download = name;

  // Append link to the body
  document.body.appendChild(link);

then click the link

graffe

is that something I am putting into chrome?

mousetail

11:55

Just in the console, where you type JS

graffe

ok.. ctrl-shift-j open the console it seems

that is a start

how do I find the blobUrl or is that literally just what I cope and paste into the console?

mousetail

Copy the href from the <video> element

it only appears when you start the video

graffe

hmm... I get a GET line in the console when I start it

is that where I should be looking?

mousetail

You can do that too maybe, download that instead

JS will do some conversion then create a blob URL, so you know the blob url is a valid video

graffe

12:13

thanks.. I have given up on this approach for the moment as someone else just sent it to me :)

but I will try again next time

Ginger

@mousetail It's jey son, not jey-sawn or j-soon

mousetail

son as in sun?

Ginger

yes

jay sun

mousetail

Thanks

Ginger

np

lyxal

12:30

→ 44 cures for cancer I fully intend to sell for profit moved to Off-Topic TNB

py3programmer

12:47

Who discovered 44 cures for cancer?

Ginger

me

mousetail

@py3programmer See here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/136286/off-topic-tnb

py3programmer

Very interesting

DialFrost

13:17

aww I got downvoted :(

py3programmer

For your partial fractions quetsion?

I gave it back :)

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

MD5 Hello, World! MD5 checksums are relatively easy to crack. For this challenge you will create two different programs, both writing Hello, World! but with the source code having identical MD5 checksums. The programs can use the same of different languages. The programs cannot write anything el...

lyxal

13:41

Gotta love how they're releasing the mod election results at a time when I'll be asleep (7am here).

So gg wp in advance to whoever wins

thejonymyster

but what if it turns out it was a bg with fp (bad game with foul play)

lyxal

/shrug that's a future me problem

Because present me is going to bed

Later nerds o/ :p

thejonymyster

i miss past lyxal

DialFrost

14:00

hehe

Radvylf Programs

14:20

OHMYGOD

I have a brilliant idea

It's a minor modification of pre/postfix that will save bytes at literally zero cost

mathcat

what is it?

Radvylf Programs

A secret, duh :p

mathcat

My ideas are nearly always garbage

@RadvylfPrograms What's the language called?

Radvylf Programs

Haven't gotten to that point yet

But basically, this will allow implicit input at any point in the program's tree, not just at left side of the tree

mathcat

oh wow

Meanwhile, I was thinking of fluid arity based on program context for quro

Conclusion:

in Quro, 55 mins ago, by mathcat

ugh

Feedback?

Seggan

14:49

@RadvylfPrograms dont stacklangs already allow that?

also whats the idea?

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan No

Well, yes, if you use stuff like swapping around stuff on the stack

But that costs bytes

28 mins ago, by Radvylf Programs

A secret, duh :p

Seggan

~~i wanna steal it~~

mathcat

~~metagolfscripting~~

Seggan

@mousetail jay sun

@RadvylfPrograms when will you

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan Well idk there's a lot more to a golflang than slight variations on its paradigm :p

Seggan

14:54

uff

Alan Bagel

@mods can somebody unfreeze chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/133503/noxan-golfing-language?

hyper-neutrino

@AlanBagel done

Ginger

16:04

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Do you trust this site? title is a work in progress This challenge is simple. Your program must take a URL (which will always exist) as input, download the file, and execute its contents as a program in the language your answer is in. The file will always be a valid program in your language. Exam...

thoughts?

Seggan

O Codex can crack MD5 hashes

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Do you trust this site? title is a work in progress This challenge is simple. Your program must take a URL (which will always exist) as input, download the file, and execute its contents as a program in the language your answer is in. The file will always be a valid program in your language. Exam...

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan It can probably recognize common ones but MD5 is still preimage resistant IIRC

Seggan

well it cracked "hello" instantly :P

couldnt crack a different one

Radvylf Programs

I'm surprised it's got a (probably small) rainbow table of hashes memorized at all

Transcript for