The Nineteenth Byte

emanresu A

00:25

@cairdcoinheringaahing I feel like new people would abuse / spam something like that. With flags you have to know what you're doing.

caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA I can understand the misunderstanding, as I didn't end the message with ":P", but I was joking :P

No, I'm caird

emanresu A

I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not

caird coinheringaahing

I have never once been sarcastic

8

emanresu A

Lol

Also should probably unpin some stuff

I think the tips meta post can be unpinned now?

forest

ROs can unpin things right?

caird coinheringaahing

00:34

And pin, yep

emanresu A

Also, should we keep the memes poll pinned? Did we reach an agreement on that?

Should we ask it on meta instead?

Should I stop asking questions?

caird coinheringaahing

From my experience, the response has been "no". People are welcome to ask on meta, but I suspect the answer will still be "no"

forest

@emanresuA Ask a question on meta about that. :^)

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Render a triangle in vulkan

hyper-neutrino

@emanresuA the response has been negative overall and imma join joking on saying no to it as well

i think we can probably unpin now

emanresu A

Okay

caird coinheringaahing

If people want a memes list, they're welcome to create one elsewhere (e.g. the TNB fandom page that, for some reason, exists), just not on meta

user

01:26

The fandom is the perfect place to put memes

Only people interested in that stuff will go there

AviFS

02:22

@mathcat Holy wow, that's impressive. I agree, I think a lot of their courses are amazing. And I feel like I see them bashed online a lot.

yOu CaN lEaRn It On YoUr OwN fOr FrEe

I feel like I see the value of thoughtful, curated educational resources generally under appreciated on online forums with that sentiment. Like what about books? Does that mean no more books because you can find it all online for free, anyway?

lyxal

Hello there avi, long time no see!

AviFS

@lyxal hey!!

hey, what! i swear i was saying hi to you, before you did, haha

blame caching-- i refuse to believe you beat me

lyxal

If you say so :p

AviFS

@lyxal thank you for your understanding, good sir

Does anyone have any technical, but not too formal, math reading to recommend? I know this isn't the place, but I trust your guys' taste more than a math room.

att

02:38

what kind of math

AviFS

Math reading, or cs, or really any other technical-ish theory something (music/color)?

I've been trying to find something satisfying that doesn't require working through a bunch of problems.

@att I'm partial to abstract algebra, but lots of things!

Has anyone read the stuff on Joy, the lang? It looks really interesting, and just the kind of thing.

Like these two, for instance:

Mathematical Foundations of Joy

The Algebra of Joy

@DLosc Have you been reading anything?

hyper-neutrino

03:58

wait I saw Jo King comment on not getting pinged and thought he set up the event

whoops

anyway, what's the deal with that - is it even actually properly finalized?

emanresu A

Honestly idk

Ginger really wanted to go ahead with this

Jo King

oh right, i got distracted with uh... work

i didn't figure out the end date

user

04:21

@AviFS Haven't read anything about it but I think Dyalog has a Joy interpreter somewhere

dfns.dyalog.com/n_joy.htm

thejonymyster

04:56

@emanresuA should we hold off then?

or can i start :o

emanresu A

Idk

thejonymyster

05:18

:P

im gonna start and if we decide were starting again ill start again

lyxal

05:46

I think it's fine to start now

End date 2 weeks from now

emanresu A

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pxeger

06:08

@Neil pinging me in chat is perfectly fine

Otherwise open an issue on github

AviFS

07:33

@thejonymyster what event are you guys talking about?

@pxeger heyo!!

pxeger

9 hours ago, by Ginger

Let the inaugural Code Golf Stack Exchange Langjam BEGIN!

AviFS

@user Thanks! I've actually run into it a few times. That's actually the interpreter I used for tabl/joy. It was that one in the Dyalog dnfs! It's a great resource which is hard to find in while looking for Joy stuff if you don't already know it's there, so thanks again.

Did you find it in connection to Joy, or did you also just stumble into it independently while looking through the Dyalog dfns?

@pxeger I did see that pin, just wasn't sure if it was the same thing since it wasn't sent by Jo King. Thanks!

The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club.

Razetime

07:58

Any feedback?

@AviFS the first rule of fight club is be gay

AviFS

@Razetime I don't even know what that movie is about, haha

Razetime

08:15

fight club is an excellent movie

mousetail

Interesting how there have been no prolog tips for the entire month

Fatalize

@mousetail Prolog has pretty simple syntax so there’s not much room for simple tips

most ways to shorten your code in Prolog is to actually change your entire approach

mousetail

makes sense

emanresu A

08:34

Lol radvylf still hasn't fixed his website

mousetail

Lol, using a ) for a arrow instead of >

Neil

08:50

@pxeger in that case, ping

mousetail

User's reputation

pxeger

10:03

@Neil pong

mathcat

11:30

@AviFS oh yeah the ads are so annoying

wohoo langjam

Razetime

@mousetail you were saying? :)

mousetail

I see it, glad to see there is at least one

Feeds

12:01

0

Q: Can a Prolog predicate have multiple choice points if it always chooses the correct solution first?

This stems from JoKing's answer to Sums of Consecutive Integers, where it can be seen that the predicate always unifies Z with the correct answer first. However, checking for all values, we see that it unifies Z with all shorter solutions after finding the longest solution: Try it online!. Can th...

discussion

emanresu A

@Feeds To my understanding, this is analogous with allowing a function to return a list starting with the result

user

@AviFS i just stumbled through it at one point, thought it looked cool

Dfns is a gold mine

@emanresuA yeah, but i think it’s more like returning a single value than returning a list

I feel like it should be allowed

@AviFS how’s tabl going btw?

pxeger

12:16

@Feeds shouldn't this just be posted as an answer to I/O defaults?

emanresu A

yeeeeah

Fatalize

@emanresuA Not really because the other values are not computed if you don’t ask for it

emanresu A

lazy list / generator then

PyGamer0

i wonder how golfy brachylog is to jelly

Neil

@pxeger and then how long before that takes effect?

Fatalize

12:22

@PyGamer0 There was a golf ranking computed some time ago

PyGamer0

@Fatalize let me try to find it

Fatalize

@PyGamer0 January 2022 ELO

PyGamer0

oh thanks

emanresu A

Radvylf's one is better

Fatalize

@emanresuA ?

emanresu A

12:27

gist.github.com/Radvylf/0d5895385c75990ce9184e95c9a8a913

PyGamer0

yes i was searching for that

emanresu A

"languages ranked"

Fatalize

What’s the difference between rating and corr rating?

pxeger

@Neil I've just applied a horribly manual patch. Can you check if it's worked?

caird coinheringaahing

12:44

@Fatalize I believe "corr rating" is the "corrected rating", and takes number of posts into consideration

Jan 27 at 16:54, by ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@AaroneousMiller The corrected rating takes post count into account. So a language with 10 answers will be pushed closer to a score of 1000 since there's not enough answers to be certain

Fatalize

the file is called corr_ratings.txt, but the ranking isn’t based on the corrected rating ._.

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing Giving Jelly 7x more points just because it's so popular doesn't seem like a "correction"

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Tell @RadvylfPrograms, not me :P

pxeger

I understand the correction method, but it should only have an effect on languages with very small numbers of posts

caird coinheringaahing

My language ranking system doesn't suffer from these errors: it's just me, telling people what languages I think are golfier than other languages

PyGamer0

12:50

@cairdcoinheringaahing do you know what does conv do?

mathcat

Make a top 10 golflang list then!

caird coinheringaahing

Guaranteed to be 100% objective and correct (no guarantees, caird is not responsible for reputation damage caused by their rankings)

mousetail

ELO doesn't seem like a good system, since the order you evaluate a pair of answers matters

caird coinheringaahing

@PyGamer0 It's for converting back to integers when using bitwise operations

PyGamer0

oh

caird coinheringaahing

12:52

@mathcat Jelly, 05AB1E, Husk, Vyxal (penalised for flag use), Stax, Gaia, GS2, Japt, MathGolf, Pyth

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger It's a very rough way of doing it, yeah. Those rankings were just a demonstration of the script, there were numerous errors and the corrected rankings are weighted using a pretty meaningless formula

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing Where does your Jelly fork fit in on that list

@RadvylfPrograms Fair enough

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger It's Jelly, so first :P

I don't really consider it a different language tho

PyGamer0

@pxeger before jelly

caird coinheringaahing

It's sort of half-way between Jelly and Jam, the tacit language I'll eventually get around to finishing

Radvylf Programs

12:55

@cairdcoinheringaahing It's hard to fit forks into rankings anyway since you usually only use them when they're actually different (and better) than the original

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Yeah, unless the task calls for one of my fork's builtins, I'll just use Jelly

pxeger

Yeah, using forks sometimes feel (a bit like Whython) like cheap wins

"Here's my answer in Python and here's my 5 byte shorter but almost identical answer in Whython"

PyGamer0

@cairdcoinheringaahing i wonder where flax would be in that list :p

caird coinheringaahing

@PyGamer0 I don't see enough flax answers to decide :P

Fatalize

@cairdcoinheringaahing I doubt Pyth is very competitive these days

caird coinheringaahing

12:59

@pxeger Yeah, this is why I only really use my fork now if it's substantially different rather than "Oh yeah, I replaced this common 5 byte sequence with a 1 byte builtin"

@Fatalize What do you mean, it's 2018, Pyth is still relevant. Right? Right????

PyGamer0

@cairdcoinheringaahing flax still isn't complete lol, i am rewriting it again

i have little motivation so it will be finished in about another 100 years or so

Neil

@pxeger doesn't seem to have sorry - this still seems to be referring to the old code

Fatalize

The general consensus in all rankings is that Jelly is the best, so tl;dr learn jelly

and then give up because the parsing rules are stupid

8

PyGamer0

lol

lyxal

that's basically a good summarisation of my first 4 attempts at learning jelly

thejonymyster

13:03

what of the fifth

caird coinheringaahing

"these parsing rules are still stupid"

PyGamer0

i learnt jelly by trying to make my own :p

and the i reversed the direction of evaluation

lyxal

@thejonymyster the fifth ended in a kind of "yeah I can vibe with that - I still don't know frick about it, but I could Jelly if my life depended on it"

thejonymyster

oh btw @cairdcoinheringaahing do you have any info on ALPHA? repo is gone

forogor the link LOL fixed

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Without using copy paste, write a Jelly program to multiply 2 numbers :P

mathcat

13:05

@emanresuA I used it as part of my (interactive) desktop background

Fatalize

@cairdcoinheringaahing I’m gonna guess: ×

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing ×

PyGamer0

÷

lyxal

From an lb keyboard

PyGamer0

@PyGamer0 wow no one saw that

lyxal

13:06

you never said I couldn't use on-screen javascript keyboards :p

PyGamer0

@PyGamer0 erase that message from you memory

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster What do you mean "info"? If Pygasm deleted the repo, then it's gone, I don't have a backup

thejonymyster

well that is some info

basically i was just curious what that was lol

caird coinheringaahing

A programming language I helped them work on

mousetail

@lyxal Just 3 keys: ++[], ++!!{}, -//

caird coinheringaahing

13:08

Back in 2018, so a long time ago :P

thejonymyster

right yea fair enough lol

the idea is interesting

PyGamer0

@cairdcoinheringaahing but ...

8 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

@Fatalize What do you mean, it's 2018, Pyth is still relevant. Right? Right????

it's 2018!

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, it is

It was still a long time ago

Obviousy

lyxal

frick it's 2018 is it?

Fatalize

Pyth was already old in 2018

thejonymyster

13:08

@cairdcoinheringaahing no, i think that it being interesting overrules it being a long time ago /j

mathcat

Pyth really is groovy

mousetail

I've made so many mistakes since 2018, I'd be happy to reset

thejonymyster

i might fool around with an idea similar to it seeing as it's gone :P

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster It wasn't really that interesting, as language ideas go

thejonymyster

interests me at least /shrug

maybe ill play around with it and decide for myself that it is in fact not interesting

could be a good exercise anywanyway

lyxal

13:12

@thejonymyster eh, I prefer my exercise to be isometric

thejonymyster

@lyxal Why are there bugs coming out of your vyxal?

lyxal

uh

ooh those aren't bugs...

they're features!

features from the new features we're adding!

mmmm new features!

mousetail

Exactly my approach to language design

mathcat

features to fix features from new features

mousetail

Generate some random code then try to specify the output it gives

thejonymyster

13:14

@mousetail this kind of owns

come up with some problem, generate random strings and stop when one looks like itd solve the problem :P

mousetail

No I do the opposite

lyxal

Every time I go to make a bookmark here now I accidentally click move messages first and get really confused as to why a whole range isn't being selected

mousetail

Generate random strings then create a problem that matches the output of the first string

thejonymyster

nice

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal How? Those two options couldn't be further apart :P

They're second from top, and bottom in the list of room options :P

lyxal

13:16

bookmark conversation used to be the bottom link

now move messages is the bottom link

caird coinheringaahing

Oh because of RO?

lyxal

mmhmm

pxeger

13:35

@Neil What about now?

mousetail

I'm gonna post this soon :tm: Any last minute feedback? codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/25108/91213

thejonymyster

@mousetail In summary (1) needs a comma somewhere :P other than that lgmt

mousetail

Commas, my biggest nemesis

Codidact Posts

13:52

New Posts - Challenges - Code Golf: Mark my beacons

posted on September 12, 2022 by Razetime‭

Given a grid of numbers, mark the concentric areas around nonzero elements (beacons) decreasing from the value of the beacon till 1. For example, here are some grids with a single beacon...

Radvylf Programs

"lgtm" will never not look like a misspelling of "lgbt" to me

It makes sandbox review very confusing

"looks good bisexual transgender"

mousetail

Most bisexual transgender people look good

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Lesbian, Gay, Trans and More

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms wdym it clearly is

Jun 25 at 21:14, by thejonymyster

lgbt

caird coinheringaahing

Cause who cares about the minority groups within a minority group, we can just shove them all under "More", I'm sure no harm would come from that

mousetail

14:02

Isn't there already a + in LGBT+?

which has the same issue

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal All acronyms are actually variations on lgbt. "wdym" is Women, Dudes, You, and Me :P

10

With it being implied that all the people included are queer :P

mathcat

2023: asexuals start a revolution

thejonymyster

@lyxal can confirm, i said this

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing wysiwyg - what does that stand for

thejonymyster

Looks Good By Todaysstandards

New Posts

14:04

3

Q: Re-name all identifiers to a single letter

Imagine a very simple language. It has just 2 syntax features: () indicates a block scope, and any word consisting only of lower case ASCII letters indicates a identifier. There are no keywords. In this language, the value of identifiers is not important except when they appear multiple times. Th...

code-golf string ragged-list

mousetail

@cairdcoinheringaahing This implies me and you are the only non-binary people

lyxal

@thejonymyster r/therealjoke

Radvylf Programs

@lyxal Women, You, Sexual orientations, Intersex, Women again, You again, Gay

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal women, you, she, I, women again, you again, gays

I love that we both went for the "again" joke :P

@mousetail Can't disagree with that

mousetail

@cairdcoinheringaahing What about HTTPS?

lyxal

14:05

final challenge: NIIOMTPLABOPARMBETZHELBETRABSBOMONIMONKONOTDTEKHSTROMONT

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail Her, Trans, Trans again, Pansexual, (other) Sexual identities

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail Herobrine, Trans (MtF), Trans (FtM), Pansexual, Someone who is bisexual

caird coinheringaahing

Goddammit, Herobrine's escaped Minecraft and is now terrorising queer people

lyxal

top 10 2022 bruh moments

oh wow I was clicking the random challenge button from that one userscipt rad made and finally got one of my own challenges

caird coinheringaahing

I have a slightly over 1% chance of getting one of my challenges when I click that

1.2% of all challenges on the site were posted by me :P

pxeger

14:14

of all undeleted questions

mousetail

@cairdcoinheringaahing That's insane

Where is this userscript?

pxeger

github.com/Radvylf/userscripts/blob/main/…

To install it click the Raw button and a popup should appear automatically

thejonymyster

it really should just be a feature of the site by default

caird coinheringaahing

Redwolf, what?

pxeger

6 hours ago, by emanresu A

Lol radvylf still hasn't fixed his website

lyxal

14:17

@cairdcoinheringaahing what rock have you been living under

mousetail

@thejonymyster For sure, most sites have something like this. Itch, steam, wikipedia etc.

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms when you fix your website approx 50y from now, pls archive the current state

Razetime

@lyxal you forgot about caird and built your rock pile on top of them..

8

thejonymyster

:(

mathcat

that isn't very nice

thejonymyster

14:20

yeah lyxal what the hell...

i thought you were cool

lyxal

May 10 at 13:55, by Radvylf Programs

Ah frick I just overwrote my website with the katlani tutorial because I mistyped a / in an rsync command

thejonymyster

ahh rip

lyxal

@thejonymyster how the frick am I gonna be cool when I built the rockpile during summer?

thejonymyster

use the rocks as shade #innovator

mathcat

#geniusmindyettobefamous

caird coinheringaahing

14:21

@lyxal I don't spend all my time in TNB :P

lyxal

btw the rock pile was real

thejonymyster

@NewPosts does anyone think this is regexable or is the parenthesis stuff a killer

mousetail

@thejonymyster I designed it hoping DeadCode would submit a regex solution. Not sure if it's possible though

thejonymyster

that makes me happy

i hope so

i cant be happy though im at work i will be caught not being miserable and get fired for slacking

mousetail

@thejonymyster Isn't workers being miserable what the corporate overlords want?

pxeger

14:25

@mousetail Not possible in normal regex; solution space is a context-sensitive language

and you'd need some kind of extra logic beyond regex to perform the replacement

mousetail

@pxeger Sad. Still there could be solutions making lots of use of regex in combination with some other code to handle edge cases

thejonymyster

i wanna see the retina answer at least

PyGamer0

15:03

@lyxal granite probably

pxeger

16:11

@NewPosts Somewhat strangely few answers here.

Radvylf Programs

Sneak peek of my blog's current appearance: (placeholder article is just stolen from some unrealted docs)

wait I can't find the picture

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms Wow that blog looks really cool!

Radvylf Programs

pxeger

Minimal, I like it

Aiden Chow

@pxeger its like pretty hard, thats why

user

16:16

Not that hard

pxeger

I wrote an answer in 10 minutes

I guess it's probably much harder in golfing languages without dictionaries

Radvylf Programs

Oh, like hashmap dictionaries. Thought you meant dictionary compression at first and was confused lol

thejonymyster

16:35

@RadvylfPrograms nice minimalism but could use some sort of accent to anchor it more

feels like im floating in the void

(imo ofc)

Neil

16:55

@pxeger works great, and this also passes now thanks

pxeger

Nice

Radvylf Programs

17:31

@thejonymyster Yeah, I have that problem with a lot of things I design

Maybe I should put a giant bakde potatto in the background

5

Yes, feels much more...material.

thejonymyster

17:47

@RadvylfPrograms actually tbf it may have just been because i zoomed in for full res and couldnt see the top and bottom bars

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms Frick I'm actually really starting to like how this looks

Wonder if the bakde potatto clip art is public domain

thejonymyster

you can totally get away with it as like, a sidebar icon

ooh, or maybe as your favicon lol

or like, the head at the bottom of tmbw

i forget his name. something white. doesnt matter

or have it as a custom cursor

i could go on...

Radvylf Programs

@thejonymyster oh god

I can't get it to work unfortunately

Whoa I imported Atkinson Hyperlegible with proper bold and it looks amazing

I always thought it looked weird, and turns out it does, the browser's automatic bold-ifying does it pretty badly in this case

thejonymyster

18:15

boldify challenge

emanresu A

19:40

@pxeger It's better than Jelly on the corpus because it's only used when it would be better than Jelly :p

DLosc

19:58

... which is a general issue when comparing golflangs to each other.

emanresu A

Same with flags

I've mostly stopped using flags except in special cases

I feel like that one's justified as the author overrides the defaults

thejonymyster

@DLosc ive said it before and will resay it this moment: every language should be attempted on as many challenges as possible

graffe

20:19

How can you grep a text file for lines that contain only cyrrilic?

CMC ^^^

Adám

@graffe Use regex with \p{Cyrillic}

graffe

@Adám surely not! What supports that?

Adám

PCRE

graffe

Is that usable from the command line?

Adám

Dunno. I use Dyalog APL where regexes are PCRE.

graffe

20:27

What is \p?

Radvylf Programs

Unicode property

Adám

character with property

Radvylf Programs

There's all sorts of stuff. \p{L} for letters, for example.

Or \p{ASCII}

Adám

Try it online!

graffe

How about chinese characters?

Adám

20:29

\p{han}

graffe

wow

I need to learn this. Thank you

I wonder if pypi.org/project/regex can do this

Adám

Unicode character property

The Unicode Standard assigns various properties to each Unicode character and code point.The properties can be used to handle characters (code points) in processes, like in line-breaking, script direction right-to-left or applying controls. Some "character properties" are also defined for code points that have no character assigned and code points that are labeled like "<not a character>". The character properties are described in Standard Annex #44.Properties have levels of forcefulness: normative, informative, contributory, or provisional. For simplicity of specification, a character property...

@graffe Looks like it

graffe

I wonder what grep can do

@Adám cool!

Adám

20

A: How to match chinese characters with grep?

To match just lines (filenames) that have Han (Chinese) characters, you can use [\p{Han}] : ls /tmp/test | grep -P '[\p{Han}]' \p{Han} is one Unicode-script category property usable in any PCRE-supporting engine: \p{Common} \p{Arabic} \p{Armenian} \p{Bengali} \p{Bopomofo} \p{Braille} \p{Buhid} ...

graffe

Awesome. Is that exclusively Chinese characters or just including at least one Chinese character?

Adám

20:36

Well, you can write your regex as you want. ^\p{Han}+$ would only capture all-Chinese lines, while ^.*\p{Han}.*$ would get any lines with any Chinese.

graffe

In general perl appears to be the answer .. And to think I used to code in perl!

@Adám nice. Thanks

Perl 4 :)

Adám

PCRE(-like) regexes are awesome for what they do well.

graffe

Do you know what formal language they cover?

I am assuming far beyond regular languages

Adám

Oh yes. Look at the Wikipedia link I posted.

graffe

29

Q: Which languages do Perl-compatible regular expressions recognize?

As the title says, I spent a couple of hours last weekend trying to wrap up my mind about the class of languages matched by Perl-compatible regular expressions, excluding any matching operator that allows to execute arbitrary code inside the pattern. If you don't know what PCREs are, please read...

formal-languages regular-expressions

Context sensitive it seems

Adám

20:41

Oh, that's what you meant.

graffe

Yes. The R normally stands for regular

People used to get really angry about questions about parsing html with a regular expression

Because html is not a regular language

But that leaves the question of if you could using pcre

Adám

Yeah, I think theoretically PCRE can parse HTML, but there are better ways.

graffe

E.g stackoverflow.com/questions/6751105/…

This is better stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/…

Ginger

After further discussion, the CGCC Langjam 2022 is postponed until further notice. The event needs more refinement, and probably a complete structural reorganization. Discuss here.

8

caird coinheringaahing

You were very quick with starting it, tbh. 6 days between an ideas thread and the event starting is not a long time

Ginger

21:03

and that's why I aborted it

user

21:59

Good call. Are you also going to remove the ODMs? Because having you guys "preside over" the langjam feels really weird imo

emanresu A

I kinda want to compete now

user

^ Why stop emanresu and lyxal from competing?

Oh good Radvylf's already proposed getting rid of the ODMs

Neil

@pxeger although, I missed my chance to ask you to change the input method... I'll save that for next time

lyxal

23:55

@user because I don't want to compete lol, but I still want to participate somehow

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