The Nineteenth Byte

caird coinheringaahing

2:00 PM

@RadvylfPrograms Your question title asks the opposite question to your body

Radvylf Programs

Oh oops

Fixed

lyxal

I knew I didn't get the question mixed up!

I know he swapped those questions! I knew it was are tips without OWC allowed. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. He - he edited his post!

Just gonna make a pinnable message for the meta post

Do tips questions need an objective winning criterion? Come discuss!

8

TIL you can't tag and hyperlink at the same time

Radvylf Programs

I guess after I finish Twitch I'll try to get NP/SP up and running again

lyxal

Twitch? Did I miss the part where you figured out how to definitively finish streaming software?

Radvylf Programs

Oops, spoiler. That's the name of my new esolang

caird coinheringaahing

2:07 PM

@lyxal Redwolf streams himself golfing :P

pxeger

@lyxal I was gonna write an answer but I can't get past the fact that, honestly, I think "specific" tips questions are basically a whole exception to our on-topic policies

Ginger

I was having an issue where my JS script would fail to change an element's display style property only when the page wasn't being loaded from the browser cache. Changing the line of code doing the modification from document.querySelector... to [parent element].querySelector... fixed it. This is why nobody likes JS.

pxeger

By "specific tips" I mean posts like "How can I improve this code", rather than "What are some general tips for improving code in (category)"

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger I don't think of them as an exception, just two different categories of on-topic posts

Challenges and tips

lyxal

Challenges and non-challenges is more accurate

Radvylf Programs

2:13 PM

Tips are only exceptions if they're exceptional, which ideally they wouldn't be

caird coinheringaahing

Honestly, I don't see any difference between the linked question, and a theoretical "How do I write a piece of Python code that prints the first 10 primes?"

pxeger

Exactly

41 mins ago, by pxeger

I think it's not really different to if someone posted a tech support / "why isn't my code working" question about Jelly or Vyxal

41 mins ago, by pxeger

But instead of being about an esolang it happens to be about a polyglot of two languages

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Exactly what I was typing :P

Olle Härstedt

Pja, I think my question required a little bit more creativity

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger Those things aren't exactly comparable tho

caird coinheringaahing

2:15 PM

Take it to the extreme: We have the hello-world tag, so "How do I output Hello, World! in Python?" would fall under the same category

Olle Härstedt

Since it's possible a thing that has never been done before. (Maybe for good reasons...)

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing What category?

pxeger

I could create a language called "CHP++" where programs must be valid and give the same output in both C++ and PHP for them to work, otherwise an error is produced

And now it's just a stackoverflow question in CHP++

Olle Härstedt

@cairdcoinheringaahing Nah, that has been done. It's not a challenge if it has been done.

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Non-OWC tips questions

lyxal

2:15 PM

honestly, the "what's on topic page" answers this quite clearly

Non-challenge questions that are related to solving programming puzzles or a particular type of challenge are also on topic. However, if you have a general programming question, it should be asked on Stack Overflow or a different Stack Exchange site.

The linked question does look like it's better suited for SO

Radvylf Programs

"Hello, World!" is just a topic a challenge can relate to

Same with string, array, number, etc.

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms So is polyglot

Not every challenge tagged polyglot requires writing one

lyxal

@lyxal this seems to give room for non-OWC tips

but the real question is whether a non-OWC tips question can ever be not better suited for SO

Radvylf Programs

But a tips question about polyglotting will almost certainly involve writing polyglots, something distinctly CGCC-y, unlike printing a string

I'm saying we should allow somewhat subjectively on-topic Q&A, not objectively allow anything that can be linked with our site in some way

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms What makes something "CGCC-y" enough?

Radvylf Programs

2:18 PM

Opinion

It's subjective

Subjectivity is wonderful

Every other site on the network manages to survive despite not having objective criteria for their on-topic-ness

Olle Härstedt

Uniqueness of challenge?

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms they sort of are

Radvylf Programs

If someone wants tips on printing HW in Python, they clearly are just asking for help on a simple task unrealted to CGCC

lyxal

Some subjective questions are allowed, but “subjective” does not mean “anything goes”. All subjective questions are expected to be constructive. What does that mean? Constructive subjective questions:

inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”
tend to have long, not short, answers
have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone
invite sharing experiences over opinions
insist that opinion be backed up with facts and references
are more than just mindless social fun

caird coinheringaahing

We have over 850 sequence challenges, 8 times as many as polyglot. Should a tips question about a sequence be allowed without an OWC?

Radvylf Programs

2:19 PM

I'd argue yes, depending on the question.

caird coinheringaahing

What about a tips question asking how to output HW in an obscure esolang?

@RadvylfPrograms Then we fundamentally disagree about what this site is for

Radvylf Programs

I'd say no, since that's just about trying to learn a certain language. CGCC isn't any more about esolangs than SO

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Esolangs are much more "CGCC-y" than sequences, why is the first allowed, but not the second?

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing If I post a question about how to do something with a sequence that is related to CGCC, like golfing it, or doing it with a low time complexity, then it's on-topic. If it's just about what that sequence is about or something, that's clearly not CGCC-related.

pxeger

We have users who have posted Vyxal questions to Code Review. Why didn't they post them here? Because they would be off-topic. They could be described as non-objective tips questions about "How do I make this code nicer", but they're still pretty clearly off-topic. They just happen to be about an esolang

caird coinheringaahing

2:21 PM

@RadvylfPrograms So, like, if it has an objective winning criteria?

pxeger

This is analogous, but for Stack Overflow instead of Code Review, and about a polyglot of two practical langs instead of an esolang

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing You know it when you see it.

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms lower time complexity seems like it should be on Code Review though

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes. Without an OWC, I don't think a question just...about a sequence would be on-topic here.

Very good.

user

@lyxal fastest-algorithm is a CGCC thing

Radvylf Programs

2:22 PM

It'd be on-topic in multiple places

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms So, tips questions should have an OWC?

Radvylf Programs

But that's true of all sorts of stuff

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not always. Polyglots, for example, are CGCC-y enough on their own, as with source layout, and KotH

It's almost like the world isn't entirely objective and black-and-white all the time. Weird.

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, but they need to have an Objective CGCC-ness Criterion

Radvylf Programs

We're restricting the usefulness of our site for no other reason than avoiding subjectivity that's already there, and just swept under the rug.

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Okay, my point is that you can't decide what is and isn't "CGCC-y" enough, and, ideally, the site should function based on generally agreed upon rules/boundaries, rather than "Idk, it feels like it belongs"

Ginger

2:23 PM

so yall are debating if tips questions should have an OWC?

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, if you gave me like an hour, I could probably create some pretty good guidelines for what is and isn't relevant enough

caird coinheringaahing

Sure, it doesn't have to be entirely black and white, there's always gonna be edge cases, but "It feels CGCC-y enough" isn't even close to an edge case

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing "idk, it feels like it belongs" is the debate we started having about the original C++/PHP polyglot question

Radvylf Programs

Is a KotH tips question any more objective than a polyglot one? IMO no.

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why can't we decide what is and isn't CGCC-y enough? We could totally have a meta question with answers suggesting different categories of tips questions that'd be on topic so people could vote on that

pxeger

2:25 PM

There's a reason we have to vote to close rather than closing questions immediately if we think they're off-topic

mousetail

What about a restricted-source tips, would that be on topic?

caird coinheringaahing

@user Sure, we could, but that's a lot of work, when we could just say "If a post has an OWC, it's on topic"

Ginger

._.

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail I think so

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail If it has an OWC, sure

Radvylf Programs

2:25 PM

Polyglot, restricted source, and source layout are all "challenge-y". You'd rarely need them in real life.

mousetail

Even if it's general and is not about a specific source restriction

Ginger

I don't think that tips questions are really "challenges"

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail But, that also brings up an interesting point: things like restricted source are only really a challenge because of score optimisation.

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm pretty sure they're talking about a scenario where that rule isn't there

Ginger

you're asking for other people's help, which is very different from challenging them to do something

Radvylf Programs

2:26 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing How?

lyxal

@Ginger not every question on CGCC needs to be a challenge though

mousetail

Yea, same as polyglot. It's not a scoring mechanism just a restriction

caird coinheringaahing

Basically all restricted-source challenges can be trivialised if you don't have to worry about the length of your code

Wheat Wizard

Not really.

caird coinheringaahing

And, for those that can't, the code golf isn't the thing that makes them interesting, it's just a way of comparing answers

pxeger

2:28 PM

restricted source is 2 challenges in one: ½ is finding a way to write code within a given limitation, and ½ is optimising its score

Ginger

@lyxal Never said they did, I just think the answer is obvious. tips are not challenges, so they do not need an OWC

Radvylf Programs

Writing JS without = or () or {} is still hard, whether I try to do it compactly or not

E.g., in my recent CnR

mousetail

I feel the same about the cops and robbers, the "code golf" aspect is kinda irrelevant. Red herrings are almost make the challenge more fun even if they increase the length.

Unrelated String

@cairdcoinheringaahing now try to give a restricted-source tips question an OWC ;)

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing This whole challenge is based around the fact this is false.

72

Q: Print X without X (cop's thread)

This is the cop's thread of a cops-and-robbers challenge. You can view the robber's thread here A pretty common beginner style question is to print some string, but there's a catch! You need to do it without using any of the characters in the string itself! For this challenge, we will find out wh...

caird coinheringaahing

2:28 PM

If a tips challenge has no reason to improve their score, what separates them from posts on Stack Overflow?

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing It being more relevant here

Unrelated String

nothing but the fact that it falls within the scope of our site and nobody would give a fuck on so

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms Really just that they're about code golf in some form

Radvylf Programs

Why do we have software engineering and computer science and TCS and Bitcoin and all the other computing related SEs when they could probably be fit into SO?

caird coinheringaahing

Whether or not we'd find it more interesting than people on SO should not be the metric for if something is on-topic

Wheat Wizard

2:29 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Stack overflow is not going to teach you how to write python with no alphabetic characters.

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing Agreed. The metric should be only whether we find it interesting in the context of our site. And I don't.

mousetail

You can tell people to go to SO but they'll never get any answers there so they'll probably prefer asking here even if it's illegal

Ginger

I feel like tips is better suited to chat then the SE QnA format

Radvylf Programs

SO is almost entirely for practical code and finding bugs. They might put up with some esolang questions about fixing Vyxal or BF bugs, but polyglotting or restricted source on SO is way more out of place than it is here

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail And I'm more than happy to repeatedly vote to close those as off-topic

Olle Härstedt

2:30 PM

@mousetail I was about to try reddit.com/r/codegolf

Radvylf Programs

We have a community that is capable of, and enjoys, answering those sorts of questions

mousetail

Ok tell them to go to reddit instead then

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWizard Sure, but it's not difficult to frame a tips question with code golf

Wheat Wizard

@Ginger Having the tips as a sort of wiki for newcomers to get used to a language is invaluable and not something chat can provide.

Radvylf Programs

Restricting them makes no sense to me

pxeger

2:31 PM

@RadvylfPrograms I think caird's point is that people often try to find a way to encode an arbitrary program into a limited charset (or whatever other restriction), which often entails writing a script to generate such code, length be damned. Although I agree this isn't the case for all restricted source challenges

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing But what if it's not for code golf?

We're not "Code Golf SE"

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms ..., or other OWC

pxeger

@WheatWizard There are two kinds of tips. Tips that are more like wikis, for new users, and tips that are more like "how do I make this specific thing better", which are better suited for Q&A

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing ...or other OWC?

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I think it's a lot more "how do I do this at all" than it is "where is the bug"

caird coinheringaahing

2:32 PM

If you can't find a way to incorporate an OWC into your tips question (which really isn't that hard, come on), then it doesn't belong here. Ask in chat, find another site, go to reddit, whatever. Just don't post it here

@RadvylfPrograms Consider that appended to my previous message. What the OWC is doesn't matter, I just chose CG

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing But why should I have to put an OWC in my question when I don't want one?

I don't want an obfuscated mess when all I'm trying to do is polyglot C and PHP

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Because that's what this goddamn site is for

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing And I disagree

It's not just for challenges

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms The same applies to every question on the site, whether it has an OWC or not. We seem to agree that non-tips questions need an OWC, even if they'd be perfectly fun without an OWC. And this PHP/C++ question could equally have an OWC added trivially

Radvylf Programs

Tips exist here, and I see tips without OWCs as a perfecly on-topic extension of those

Olle Härstedt

2:34 PM

@RadvylfPrograms OWC doesn't have to be related to size, no? What about elegance? Not objective?

Or "least amount of breakage"

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger Competition changes this a lot though

It's not a competition without a way to judge the answers

caird coinheringaahing

@OlleHärstedt The O stands for objective, and elegance, unfortuantely, isn't

Radvylf Programs

An OWC makes 100% sense in a challenge, because otherwise we're all just answering a question

mousetail

I don't think trivially added OWCs add anything

Olle Härstedt

@pxeger Can you show me an example of an owc?

For my question, I mean

pxeger

2:35 PM

@OlleHärstedt The most obvious is "shortest code"

Radvylf Programs

In a tips question, nobody's trying to compete, and I don't think we should force them to unless that's the point of the question

Ginger

@cairdcoinheringaahing the FAQ says "Non-challenge questions that are related to solving programming puzzles or a particular type of challenge are also on topic."

Olle Härstedt

@pxeger "Shortest code that does not break"

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail I agree with this

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I only answer tips questions because I'm competing with other tips answerers. If I weren't, I would go to SO

Olle Härstedt

2:35 PM

The accepted answer actually has one problem.

Radvylf Programs

@OlleHärstedt That's also allowed, the shortest part is the OWC

@pxeger That's not true of the big "general tips for [language]" ones

pxeger

E.g. codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/240792, I only posted this answer because I wanted to be the first and best person to shorten OP's code

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms And those work fine

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms Sorry, I meant "I only answer Q&A-style tips questions ..."

mousetail

@pxeger Some people have that mindset but many don't. Many people just want to help

Unrelated String

2:36 PM

i'd still maintain that it's impossible for a tips question to have an owc of its own, and requiring them to be designed to optimize for one is counterproductive

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger How are the general ones not Q&A style?

pxeger

They're more like a wiki

5 mins ago, by pxeger

@WheatWizard There are two kinds of tips. Tips that are more like wikis, for new users, and tips that are more like "how do I make this specific thing better", which are better suited for Q&A

Unrelated String

se's q&a style is consciously designed to also function as a wiki :P

Radvylf Programs

I don't think that distinction is useful

pxeger

They're still kind of Q&A-ey, but their extreme answer:question ratio is what makes them basically a wiki

caird coinheringaahing

2:37 PM

This reminds me of an answer a while back, where someone posted the first answer to a long-unanswered challenge, but didn't bother to golf their code, citing that "it's impressive enough that it doesn't need golfing". That's not why we're here. We're here to compete in coding based competitions. Tips are just an extension of that, where we ask others for help. If we allow tips without some form of OWC, we just become somewhere people can post their snippets of code with no rhyme or reason

Radvylf Programs

So is HW also a wiki?

@cairdcoinheringaahing Tips still != challenges

caird coinheringaahing

There's 1000001 sites out there where people will help you with your code. We don't need to make that 1000002

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing I disagree

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms I never said they were challenges in that message

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms Why not? "Help me improve this" and "General tips for golfing in (language)" are two very different senses of [tips]

Unrelated String

2:39 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's just an argument against tips period

Radvylf Programs

SE's format is designed for Q&A. If anything, non-OWC tips belong here more than challenges

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms SE's format isn't designed for us

Unrelated String

@pxeger that distinction is useful but characterizing it as q&a versus wiki is a weird way to put it

mousetail

SEs format is kinda terrible for this site in general

caird coinheringaahing

That's not much of an argument

@UnrelatedString Perhaps, but that's for a different day :P

mousetail

2:39 PM

Half the SE features are actively counterprodtive

pxeger

@pxeger "Q&A" and "Wiki" are not as good ways of describing those two, I concede, but I used that because it was short to type and I felt I'd kinda already defined them in my earlier message to WW

@UnrelatedString ^

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing What about programming puzzles?

Polyglotting tips fit pretty well with those

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms What about them?

Radvylf Programs

And they used to be half of our site's title and are still perfectly on-topic

"How do I do this in a C/PHP polyglot" is like a programming puzzle, minus the intended solution

caird coinheringaahing

"How do I do this in Python" is like a programming puzzle, minus the intended solution

@RadvylfPrograms We keep going round in circles: I make a point, saying that I believe the site should require OWC for all challenges because of X, Y, Z. You then say you disagree, and nothing more. I don't really think this discussion is productive

pxeger

2:41 PM

My attitude towards "programming puzzles" is that they should be basically one cops answer to a CnR question that you also write

without posting it as a whole CnR which would often be silly

Radvylf Programs

I kind of see y'all's point, that CGCC is primarily for competition and tips questions should only be allowed if they're tips for doing better in those competitions.

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm on your side, but I don't think we're going round in circles. We've had some productive discussions

mousetail

Programming puzzles are nice, I used to play them a lot on one discord but it died. Where do you find them nowadays?

caird coinheringaahing

@mousetail In chat, posted as CMCs

pxeger

@mousetail I very occasionally post them on twitter

in fact possibly only once

mousetail

2:43 PM

Ok lol

Unrelated String

@RadvylfPrograms you can definitely have more general polyglot tips than that too though

Radvylf Programs

But I just think that, with a community full of people knowledgable about polyglotting, restricted source, etc., even if it's not currently a focus of the site, I see no reason not to allow Q&A on topics very close to CGCC, which aren't general enough to make sense on SO

7

Unrelated String

^

pxeger

and that's because I didn't enjoy the experience of trying to post them to this site

mousetail

^^^

Puzzles don't really fit this site at all, since they fundamentally miss a OWC if there is only one possible answer

Radvylf Programs

2:44 PM

I think the spirit of this site isn't the competition itself, but the challenge of trying to figure out how to do something shorter, faster, or, for restrictive things like polyglotting, at all

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms That's what chat is for, IMO

mousetail

Chat is hard to search though

Radvylf Programs

And I think the structure and visibility of the main site would help those sorts of questions, without causing much harm, at all

Fatalize

@RadvylfPrograms There were months of arguments until the "Showcase of languages" was unlocked by mods, because they are very rigid about what they consider on-topic

pxeger

@mousetail When is anyone ever gonna need to know again how to write that snippet of code in a PHP/C++ polyglot?

caird coinheringaahing

2:45 PM

@mousetail Who cares about searching? Just ask

Radvylf Programs

@Fatalize The showcase is an extremely edgy edge case

caird coinheringaahing

If someone's already asked, then either you'll get a link to the previous convo, or someone will answer. Worst case is that no one answers

Fatalize

@cairdcoinheringaahing Loads of CCGC users don’t come in chat or don’t even know it exists

pxeger

If anything, our site is better suited for the SE software than SO is. Most of SO's questions never need to be looked at again, so they may as well be posted in chat

mousetail

@pxeger I think the question actually contains more useful tricks that can be used if someone wants to polyglot those 2 languages in the future

Unrelated String

2:46 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing i would agree that for questions like the one that sparked this debate chat is better, but for reference-type questions chat is horrid

pxeger

@pxeger Whereas almost all our posts can still be competed in in the far future

caird coinheringaahing

@Fatalize Which is why I don't begrudge them for asking off-topic questions, and will often point them towards chat. But, I do still vote to close them, because they don't belong on main

pxeger

Or at least competed in in the medium-term rather than short-term

Fatalize

@RadvylfPrograms It’s still the same philosophy: something clearly of interest to CGCC and that doesn’t fit elsewhere nor on chat, yet mods don’t wan’t it because they are anal about "on-topicness"

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail I agree with this

@pxeger OWC tips questions aren't any better about this than non-OWC ones, tho

mousetail

2:48 PM

On SO 99% of questions disappear into oblivion never seen again but 1% get found on google and help thousands of people

Radvylf Programs

Sure, you can come back and try to golf an OWC tip a year later, but chances are due to their limited scope there's very little to golf. You can come back to a non-OWC and find a different approach, or a more elegant, or faster, or shorter one.

pxeger

@Fatalize The Showcase is definitely worth keeping though because it is clearly one of those "1% of questions" that mousetail is describing

Whereas I'm certain this C++/PHP will fall into the 99%

caird coinheringaahing

Also, the Showcase was technically on-topic at the time

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger Does that hurt anyone tho?

pxeger

Yes, me

Radvylf Programs

2:50 PM

I don't see the harm in the first place in questions that are only used by a few people

pxeger

It clogs up the new questions feed with things that I don't want to answer

mousetail

Just filter them out

You can ignore tags

pxeger

I don't want to filter out all of tips though

mousetail

Filter out tips except if they also have code-golf

pxeger

I don't think that's possible

Unrelated String

2:51 PM

and that would also filter out restricted-source tips

caird coinheringaahing

It's not

mousetail

You could write a userscript

Set arbitrary combinations of tags you do or do not want to see

pxeger

I shouldn't have to use a userscript for what is fundamentally a content problem

Unrelated String

oh ww just made a good post on the meta thread

caird coinheringaahing

I shouldn't have to write a userscript to not see off-topic challenges

Radvylf Programs

2:52 PM

@pxeger if it's still in the feed, chances are there's still room for improvement

mousetail

You should if you are the only one who views them as off topic

Radvylf Programs

And I'm sure there's plenty of challenges you don't care about either

Tips questions are already super rare

Non-OWC ones will likely be a one in a thousand thing

Unrelated String

the related-to-a-possible-challenge criterion is a very good way to conceptualize what's intuitively wrong here

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger That's also a very minor issue

IMO the benefit provided to the OP in something like the C/PHP question, and the fun the answerer might have, is far greater than the slight annoyance of having to scroll 100px past a question you don't care about

4

The feed is already full of various clutter anyway

mousetail

^^

pxeger

2:55 PM

@RadvylfPrograms But why don't we say we'd rather have them in chat than as questions on main. Then they still get all the benefit, without clogging up the feed or diluting the definition of on-topic?

Unrelated String

^

Wheat Wizard

@UnrelatedString I agree. It seems we both arrived at this idea independently.

Unrelated String

i had a similar vague idea but i don't think i really articulated it

Radvylf Programs

I have to go for now (school) o/

caird coinheringaahing

I still maintain that, by allowing this post up, someone could reasonably post e.g. this and defend it being on the site by pointing to the C/PHP polyglot question

Sure, us regulars may be able to say "Well, it doesn't relate to the site as much", but that's literal nonsense to a new user

pxeger

3:00 PM

^{,^}

Unrelated String

^

caird coinheringaahing

And before anyone complains about how that one may also be on-topic, it's just the most recent "not suitable" closed question I could find

Unrelated String

if it is on topic it shouldn't be :P

pxeger

40 mins ago, by pxeger

We have users who have posted Vyxal questions to Code Review. Why didn't they post them here? Because they would be off-topic. They could be described as non-objective tips questions about "How do I make this code nicer", but they're still pretty clearly off-topic. They just happen to be about an esolang

40 mins ago, by pxeger

This is analogous, but for Stack Overflow instead of Code Review, and about a polyglot of two practical langs instead of an esolang

caird coinheringaahing

IMO this would be perfectly on-topic as a fastest-code tips question. You've given a good specification of the problem, the code you have already, and an objective criterion to optimize. — Radvylf Programs Aug 14 at 19:12

pxeger

3:02 PM

lol

@pxeger reposting because I think this is a relevant point but it got buried by other debate

caird coinheringaahing

Any final feedback? I feel like the Rules section is lacking, but I don't know what else to put

pxeger

> After no new answers have been posted for 14 days, the last answer is the winner

Answer-chainings always seem to do this

Why not just say "the last answer at any given point in time is always the winner"

Wheat Wizard

Yeah.

pxeger

Then the winner changes over time, instead of eventually choosing a final winner, but we make do with that for code-golf challenges etc

caird coinheringaahing

hmm yeah

thejonymyster

3:12 PM

@RadvylfPrograms im so late but i have a take that im curious what people think of; "what are ways to generate <x> sort of sequences?" where <x> is given in the question

varying strategies for generating sequences can be helpful in many a sequence challenge of varying OWCs

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, that's something that's a gray area I think but I'd lean toward off-topic

It's not really a challenge (in the second sense of the word)

Just a how-to

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster I'd reasonably post this to Math.SE

Wheat Wizard

I think for example, a "Tips for checking if a number is prime" could be helpful here as there are a lot of questions here involving checking primeness and multiple ways of doing it with different adcantages disadvantages.

thejonymyster

@cairdcoinheringaahing respectable :)

Radvylf Programs

@WheatWizard I'm not sure how I feel about this one. Without an OWC, it would be a useful reference, but I feel like it doesn't really belong

thejonymyster

3:21 PM

maybe we need a sister site; Code Challenge Strategy Hub

mousetail

3:46 PM

Is this edit useful? codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/posts/14927/revisions

graffe

hello all!

the witch has a new challenge on the sandbox

thejonymyster

@mousetail more information is always good :-D

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Strategy: The cunning cousin witch The wizard has a cunning cousin who is a witch. She looks down on the wizard, regarding him and his puzzles as mathematically naive. On reading his latest puzzle, she scorned him for always asking discrete problems with what she (unfairly) characterises as simp...

graffe

5:14 PM

@Adam Hi

Ginger

in CGCC Langjam, 6 secs ago, by Ginger

0

Q: Chat Event Proposal: CGCC Langjam

Myself, emanresu A, and lyxal have decided to propose new event: the CGCC Langjam! The basic idea is that this is a yearly event in which participants will have one week to invent a new esolang in a certain paradigm, which must then be used to solve a selection of code golf challenges (which ones...

discussion chat chat-events

because feeds slow

caird coinheringaahing

5:38 PM

Just cause Feeds are slow, doesn't mean you need to do their jobs. It just creates more oneboxes

Radvylf Programs

I don't think we even remembered to re-add NMetaP

Adam

@graffe Hello

Feeds

caird coinheringaahing has made a change to the feeds posted into this room

caird coinheringaahing

Feeds are annoying :/

Seggan

no

caird coinheringaahing

5:43 PM

Prepare for a mass influx of meta posts

Ginger

here we gooooo

caird coinheringaahing

Watch us sit around waiting for it for 10 mins, give up, and then the last 3 weeks get dumped in when we aren't expecting it :P

Seggan

wait its gonna dump all posts in the past 3 weeks?

caird coinheringaahing

Don't think so

I can't remember the exact limit on backlog tho

Ginger

wow, nobody looks at meta

Radvylf Programs

5:56 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing 30 posts IIRC

thejonymyster

wtf my messages got timed out way after id already sent them

i was saying i love meta posts :-) <3

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster You haven't sent any posts in the last 2 hours

thejonymyster

well yea, they got timeout'ed

caird coinheringaahing

Poor internet connection?

thejonymyster

idk i just mean it looked like it sent just fine, i walked away and came back and they were like "timeout"

i mean i hope not, im on ethernet at work

Radvylf Programs

5:58 PM

You can usually tell if they sent by the text color

thejonymyster

though we did just get our phone line disconnected :P lots of shenanigans today

Radvylf Programs

And the arrow thingy

A message won't have a dropdown to its left until it sends

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms Gradual light green until black :P

thejonymyster

ah i might have had a "the green looks the way the black looks when its on a green bg" moment

idk its nothin i just am sad cause i looked less topical :P

Radvylf Programs

Yeah I hate it so much when I send something and then a random timeout ruins my comedic/on-topic-ness timing

(I should've sent that 20m from now :p)

thejonymyster

5:59 PM

being funny isnt everything, its the only thing

New Posts

0

Q: Make a Brainfuck Interpreter

There already is a Brainfuck interpreter question, but it is from 2011 and not up to date with current site standards and vague in places. I have proposed reposting this in chat, and it was well-received. Here goes. Objective Given the Brainfuck code and the program's input as input, run the Brai...

code-golf interpreter brainfuck

Radvylf Programs

The Stack Overflow Blog is like GPT-3 learned about keyword stuffing

10

graffe

@Adam Thanks for your comment on my question

Radvylf Programs

→ 5 pounds of low-fat butter moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

DLosc

@NewPosts ... That wasn't in the sandbox for long

Seggan

6:04 PM

@DLosc yeah i dont keep em for more then a day and a half these days

its a very simple challenge, really

besides, my challenges never get feedback past a day

@Steffan umm... wasnt this last lyal?

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms And the worst part is, it's partially my own fault, since in the like, 2019 dev survey I responded that I would indeed be interested in a blog run by SO

Ginger

you've doomed us all

Seggan

6:21 PM

@RadvylfPrograms theyre just trying to meet their word count quotas :P

pxeger

6:46 PM

@RadvylfPrograms What on earth is low-fat butter?

Radvylf Programs

Butter with less fat, duh

pxeger

But butter is almost entirely fat

Butter without the fat is just skimmed milk

Ginger

so, skimmed milk

you answered your own question

pxeger

or whey?

idk much about dairy

Radvylf Programs

You didn't learn about it in school?

In American middle school we have a semester long course on it

pxeger

6:50 PM

I'm lack toes in taller ants

so I got to skip that class

Radvylf Programs

Ah, makes sense. Low-fat dairy isn't covered until AP Dairy anyway.

emanresu A

8:12 PM

I don't think this adds anything to the original challenge, as most brainfuck programs are written for a cell size of unsigned 256 and won't work elsewhere. The original "interpret brainfuck" is not overly strict, it simply asks to interpret the variant of brainfuck which most people use. Additionally, the original has many good and interesting answers which this question will almost certainly never accumulate. — emanresu A 1 min ago

Seggan

8:42 PM

LDQ: should listification on a number return the digits or a range?

DLosc

@Seggan I'd say it depends on other factors, such as what types the language has, how it handles lists, and what other builtins it has.

Another option to consider is wrapping the number in a singleton list.

thejonymyster

8:59 PM

@Seggan prime factors :P

one thing i also considered: listifying n returns a length n list of... (i never decided what)

DLosc

@thejonymyster If you don't care what the contents are, then returning a range will give you a length n list.

thejonymyster

true

Seggan

@DLosc Fig: has list, number, function, string types

i dont get what you mean by "how it handles lists"

its a functional language if that helps

DLosc

Question: Does Vyxal have a "tuck" stack operation, which puts a copy of the top item under the top two items?

@Seggan I'm mainly thinking about, when you use an arithmetic builtin on lists, does it vectorize, or does it overload the builtin to do something else? Does [1,2,3]+[4,5,6] result in [5,7,9] or [1,2,3,4,5,6] (e.g.)?

Seggan

9:14 PM

@DLosc it vectorises

emanresu A

@DLosc Nope, but dup-rot should work?

DLosc

@emanresuA Ok. (I was looking for ideas on what symbol to use.)

Transcript for