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4:00 PM
maybe make only negatives be falsy and not 0 :P
@RadvylfPrograms unless you index at 1
Yeah, but 1-indexing is annoying for other reasons
E.g., modular indexing has some weird edge cases
@RadvylfPrograms yeah that was the thing i was doing but then realized 0 also didnt work
One option would be having two different measures of truthiness lol
i considered that as well lol
Fun fact: An idea that I was planning on adding to Ash but never did was a "truthiness flag". Every piece of data d had a second piece of data hidden inside it, which was used to determine truthiness, among other things. So you could have a -1 that's falsy and a 0 that's truthy, or a 0 that's falsy and a 1 that's truthy.
4:07 PM
How would you set that flag?
It was going to be allowed to be any data type, so you could "smuggle" additional data out of a function that would be ignored 90% of the time, but could be recovered compactly if needed later on
in which case, either A) youd have to have a way to check either one or the other or either for the same byte price probably?
B) youd have to have different situations call for different truthinesses, which could be interesting :?
C) something unforseen by i...
@pxeger Different operatiors would handle it differently
E.g., indexOf would set the truthiness flag based on how many matches there were
thats totally cool btw
why limit it to just a flag
So if @ swaps the value with its truthiness flag, i@ would count matches
4:08 PM
why not just give all data a bunch of metadata
that was one of my earlier ideas for perhaps too incidentally
not for truthiness (obviously) but just having metadata that rides along
@thejonymyster I mean, it basically was that
It wasn't just limited to a bool
Doing it with more than one flag would be kinda overkill though
still considering it but realized encoding metadata for specifically under makes zero sense
4:10 PM
@UnrelatedString i had a variant of Jelly called Quantum Jelly where all data had one of each type of data in the same container
all operators would operate on both bits of data
sometimes on one container using the 2 bits of data
basically a form of golfy parallelism
sounds funky as hell
4:24 PM
wh... wha... what...
ah yes another person interested in hacking is following me
just because i fixed a typo in one termux repository
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

pxegerIs this a squashed series? code-golf string parsing number decision-problem Given a string of digits, determine whether it is the concatenation of at least two ascending consecutive integers. (in decimal, with no leading zeroes) For example, the string 7891011 is valid, because it's the concatena...

Because many fonts render those but not the rest of the superscripts
can you fix that in APL386?
@RadvylfPrograms wdym
4:36 PM
¹²³ are in a different block than the rest of the superscripts
So many common monospace fonts include ¹²³, since they're pretty early on in Unicode
Whereas the rest of the superscripts are way in the U+2xxx I think
So they fall back to other fonts, and you're lucky if they're even monospace at all
everything mono when
really though is there not a way to get everything to render monospace no matter the font?
some terminals do that, yes, but then you get characters cut in half down the middle
@PyGamer0 I should be able to fix that, yes. Can you log an issue?
4:59 PM
in regards to @Steffan comment to this, why is it so?
@Seggan @Steffan > considering that half-byte languages just use 0.5, and this uses less than half of its codepage
"half-byte languages" would have 4 bits per character, thus 16 different characters. 96 > 16, thus it'd make sense for it to be higher. n*log_256(96) is the correct thing to do.
half-byte languages don't use half the codepage of full-byte languages, they use the square root of it (since there are 256 bytes, that's 1/16th)
a 96-"value" encoding uses less than a 256-"value" encoding (normal bytes), but half-byte languages use a 16-"value" encoding which is less still
half-byte langs multiply by 0.5 because 0.5 = log_256(16)
Semi-serious question: can I multiply most of my Pip scores by log_256(96) because Pip generally only uses printable ASCII and newline? :P
If you make an official fractional byte encoding, sure
I find it kind of a boring way to save bytes though :p
5:05 PM
If there's an implementation of Pip that has an encoding for that, yes
@RadvylfPrograms Agreed, thus why my question is semi-serious
And how would you actually store log_256(96) bytes?
bijective base
Fig can actually read that
But that'd round to a number of bytes
Since byte counts are technically only for within-language competition, it doesn't particularly matter that much. It does make sense that if we're starting to make more semi-competitive ASCII golfing languages that we compare them more fairly though, so even if the official scoring is in bytes, comparing between languages can use whatever we feel like since it's never official in the first place
The question is why would you? It would just make pip byte counts confusing.
@WheatWizard For more fair comparison with SBCS languages, and it's not too confusing, Fig's byte counts use MathJax that makes it super clear what the character count is, and what/why the byte count is scaled by
5:12 PM
@RadvylfPrograms It'd be confusing because then answers after a certain date would be scored with a different method.
Oh yeah in that regard I guess
IIRC usually when languages change how they're scored, it becomes a v2 of the language
E.g., Brachylog moving to an SBCS
(was that the one that did that?)
I dunno... anytime a question about scoring comes up, I keep coming back to, "Are we comparing scores across different languages or not?" And the answer always seems to be "No, definitely not. But also yes."
We officially don't, but everyone does unofficially because half of us are golfing language designers
5:18 PM
It's like a black market economy :P
So we need official policies that allow a broad variety of languages and don't lead to pointless fighting, which we basically have, and unofficial guidelines people use in their heads to compare languages
And I think quite often when we quibble about the second (e.g., flags), we forget it's (necessarily) much more subjective than the first and there's nothing wrong with that
Flags are wrong.
Aug 17, 2021 at 16:58, by DLosc
I agree, but since they only affect the second type of byte count comparison, it doesn't matter if people do diagree
(not like I'm one to talk about not arguing about flags lmao)
5:21 PM
My stance on flags is semi-conservative: flags that literally just shave a single byte off the code are absolutely cheaty
What if it's 2-3 bytes :P
If a flag can shave of 2-3 bytes then your golfing language has a design flaw :P
@pxeger cant we just squish them instead :P
Not necessarily, you might have a type-II flag like Vyxal's r or M that just happens to save a byte multiple times
@WheatWizard I mean, Pip has many design flaws :P
5:27 PM
like using ASCII instead of SBCS
Actually, golfed: before, after
Part of the deal with Pip's flags, though, is that they were created back when a flag added 1 byte to the bytecount. So the actual idea was that there was a cost to using flags, it was just cheaper to spend 1 byte on a flag than 2 bytes on Jn (or three on J:n).
quick q, anyone have a shorter way of writing $[x;x;60] in K?
Might want to try the k tree or the APL Orchard
5:41 PM
sure thing thanks
idk k but one could do 60,⍨,⍨x in APL
yeah I'm just looking for the equivalent of something like x||60 or x or 60
Oh I didn't see the $
@DLosc we should bring back that rule imo
@MamaFunRoll You can abuse the "repeat" thingy
5:50 PM
maybe make it the default and allow challenge authors to override it
@Seggan No we shouldn't
We changed it for a reason: lots of languages require flags to be able to run
And also, costing 1 byte each still allows you to smuggle in additional data for free, but hides that under an illusion of fairness
E.g., if I make a language where the flags are just code concatted to the end of the program, it's fair. But 111 with 2 as its flags and 1 with 112 as its flags result in the same program, and I can take advantage of that to store additional information
haha you found it in the wild
5:59 PM
my profile pic is technically out of date but spiritually it's up to date.
Doorknob's also no longer a mod
@RadvylfPrograms wdym in the wild
As in, not linked there by someone in chat
6:17 PM
Q: Compress Jelly's code page

Radvylf ProgramsIn this challenge, you'll print out the SBCS of Jelly, a popular golfing language. Its code page looks like this: _0 _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 _6 _7 _8 _9 _A _B _C _D _E _F 0_ ¡ ¢ £ ¤ ¥ ¦ © ¬ ® µ ½ ¿ € Æ Ç Ð 1_ Ñ × Ø Œ Þ ß æ ç ð ı ȷ ñ ÷ ø œ þ 2_   ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . / 3_ 0 1 2 3 4 5 ...

who made the tnb wiki? it's up to date in that it has lyxal and stuff as room owners
Interesting, that must've been added later on
Since we mostly stopped work on it shortly after it was made in August
6:32 PM
Is anyone interested in temporarily reviving it?
6:47 PM
ill pay you 3.14159 rep
7:29 PM
7 upvotes in the sandbox is the most I've ever gotten, and yet the challenge is also one of my most poorly received on main. This is why people don't sandbox stuff.
The average number of votes on my challenges has gone down since I started sandboxing. There are other factors that contribute to that, of course, but I think it's very overrated.
@RadvylfPrograms mine got 10 in the sandbox recently, and then only 15 on main
it must be because of a disconnect between why people upvote in the sandbox, and why they upvote on main
either: the people that upvote in the sandbox do not represent the majority of the voters on main
or: people upvote in the sandbox without answering the challenge or seeing any answers, so they may not reflect how enjoyable the challenge is actually
or naybe people on main are a bunch of haters :P
i guess thatd be the first one though
7:45 PM
lol ya one of my challenge got like 5 upvotes in sandbox, but somehow manage to only get 4 upvotes on main, super strange
just noticed I have 6k rep
@Steffan dang nice
I think it's pxeger's second suggestion, challenges can look really interesting or unique in the sandbox, but just not be that fun to solve. And a bit of the first one probably plays in too, with users on main looking more for challenges that are fun to solve than ones with an interesting premise.
Sometimes I upvote on sandbox, but I forget to upvote when I see it in main
All three of my questions only received like 1 or 2 upvotes in sandbox, but way more on main
What I got the most upvotes for was on SO, lol. it was an answer with I think 120 upvotes or so
Solution: Downvote challenges you like in the sandbox, letting people know they will do well on main
7:48 PM
actually 190 upvotes lol
I lost track
it's where most of my rep on SO is from
SO rep is stupid
Either you get hundreds of upvotes or you're lucky to get one
7:50 PM
I have another answer there with 45 upvotes
Most of the rest only have 1 or 0
22 mins ago, by Radvylf Programs
7 upvotes in the sandbox is the most I've ever gotten, and yet the challenge is also one of my most poorly received on main. This is why people don't sandbox stuff.
this looks so weird on the starboard
18 somebody star this :P
pxeger's already done that :p
in Sandbox, Aug 20, 2021 at 13:35, by pxeger
311 This message has so many stars!
@pxeger What's funnier is that your message has more actual stars than Seggan's pretends to
8:03 PM
@Seggan now that I've starred it too, your ruse no longer works ;)
apparently the answer with the most upvotes on SO has 34k lol
(I removed it from the starboard though, because it's not actually relevant and interesting enough to be worth having there)
1 hour later…
9:17 PM
@RadvylfPrograms Another thing can be that posts to main generally need answers to come in to keep bumping them, while sandbox posts get bumped by edits. So if you have a legitimately interesting challenge which is hard to solve, you are going to struggle a bit on main, but that issue doesn't appear in the sandbox, since being hard to solve has little bearing on how frequently you edit it.
@pxeger I think maybe it's also the fact that it's acceptable if a Sandbox post has some weirdness in it, because it's assumed that it'll be fixed later, whereas it's obviously not okay for a post on main to have something wrong with it
@NewPosts Regenerate would be perfect for this but it doesn't support non-ASCII
You could generate the Unicode scalar values but that probably wouldn't work as well lol
9:33 PM
I'm making a patched version of Regenerate
10:29 PM
Wait Google is a valid language?
i feel like it shouldnt be the whole website so much as just the google calculator
because i would argue that hte rest of the search results would have to be reversed as well
lol i write hte so much too
tumblr ruined me man nothings been the same since my mom came home and made hte spaghetti
but uh i mean *negated
CMQ: where do yall source your golflang compression dics from?
10:39 PM
if i were to do one and actually take it seriously id probably just use the scrabble dictionary or whatever i can find on the google
and just like, make sure it has a bunch of extra words as i see fit
@Seggan Ash's first dict was a list of the top 300k words by frequency, second list was based on CGCC posts
Experimented with using Wikipedia
A: Compress Jelly's code page

emanresu AModified Regenerate -a --sep=, 229 bytes [¡-¦©¬®µ½¿€ÆÇÐÑ×ØŒÞßæçðıȷñ÷øœþ -~ °¹²³⁴-⁾ƁƇƊƑƓƘⱮƝƤƬƲȤɓƈɗƒɠɦƙɱɲƥʠɼʂƭʋȥ]|̣[AB-DEHIK-OR-WYZ]|[A-IL-PR-TW-Z]̇|̣[abdehiik-or-wyz]|[a-hl-pr-tw-z]̇|[«»‘’“”] Attempt This Online! I thought Regenerate would be the perfect tool for this. Unfortunately, it only supp...

Beat Vyxal :)
So I was thinking of a challenge where you create n programs, where the ith program outputs the integers from i*n to (i+1)*n. Scoring would be based on how many program combinations you have where interleaving programs together interleaves their output too (the more combinations you have the better, the more programs you have in those combinations, the better). Any idea if it would be a duplicate?
Can't find a dupe but it sounds really hard
Yeah lol, I guess I can put it in the Sandbox and make it more manageable
Maybe the output of the individual programs can be whatever you want
10:51 PM
@emanresuA Jelly just beat you
The jelly answer doesn't count
Yeah it's literally a builtin lol
It's trivial to the point of esssentially being invalid, which is why I posted it as a CW
tbh I'd have suggested putting it in your question itself
I only got 10 rep from this but got two upvotes???
10:56 PM
@Seggan Using Wikipedia as a dict source could be a good idea, was considering it for Ash
just like scrape half of the wikipedia pages?
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

SegganErverse Hte Ifrst Wto Eltters fo Aech Owrd code-golf Inspired by this accidental misspelling If you could read the title, then you already know what the challenge is about. If not, then I'll tell you. Easy: simply take each word (space delimited), and swap the positions of the first two letters...

11:12 PM
You can download wikipedia
I have a copy
It's 20 GB or so, XML formatted
11:35 PM
@RadvylfPrograms damn is all of wikipedia that small? i guess just as plaintext that would be reasonable
thinking about it 20 GB of plaintext would be a hell of a lot of plaintext, that does sound reasonable
With images it's closer to 100 TB
You can download that too but on my internet that'd take approx. two months
@SandboxPosts Not sure how actually interestnig this is. We already have swap first and last, so swap first and second isn't that different
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