The Nineteenth Byte

forest

00:03

@JoKing I love it when companies actually give a fairly detailed postmortem instead of the usual "we fixed it nothing to see here".

> 07:42: The last of the reverts has been completed. This was delayed as network engineers walked over each other's changes, reverting the previous reverts, causing the problem to re-appear sporadically.

That alone should have its own analysis within the company.

user

@des54321 True programmers don't use Windows

Also, obligatory mention of ed

@forest Isn't there a joke about Emacs? "Great OS, just needs a decent editor"

forest

@user Yeah I've heard that one.

Supposedly, ed is actually pronounced "ee dee", and vi is pronounced "vee eye".

user

🤮🤮🤮

forest

That was my reaction as well.

At least I use vim, which is pronounced "vim".

user

@forest What exactly is the fluff?

forest

00:11

A GUI. Or more truthfully: "Any of the features I don't like and/or never learned how to use".

user

I thought the point of an editor like Vim was sacrificing some features to gain better performance

lol

forest

@user Vim is flexible enough that you can add pretty much any feature you want to it.

Seggan

anyone here every used D? im trying to get away from c++ and deciding whether to use c or d

forest

So long as it's textual in nature.

Why would you use D?

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan Have you considered something newer like Rust, Go, or Typescript?

user

00:13

@Seggan I've heard good things about it, you could talk to Conor O'Brien on the CGCC Discord

@RadvylfPrograms TS isn't really comparable

I believe Seggan's looking for a low level language to make a VM with a GC and stuff

forest

I'd recommend C personally, but Rust is safer and more secure.

Radvylf Programs

C is quickly becoming a historical curiosity and there's probably not much of a point in learning D

forest

But C will teach you how to manage memory on your own.

Seggan

@RadvylfPrograms go no. rust seems too unreadable and TS is fancy JS

@user actually no

the reason is bc i cant use the jvm in a pi zero

forest

Rust is no more unreadable than C++.

user

00:14

@RadvylfPrograms Well, it is a cool-looking language, but yeah, it's kinda faded into obscurity by now

Unrelated String

i feel like rust is not unreadable if you learn it :P

Seggan

also, rewriting myxal native in another lang would be nice

user

It's verbose, but unlike Java, the verbosity seems to actually be useful

Unrelated String

c is not obscure

forest

And compared to Perl, nothing is unreadable.

Unrelated String

00:14

^

user

@UnrelatedString I'm talking about D

Unrelated String

oh

yeah

user

> cool-looking language

Unrelated String

d is obscure as hell

user

Did you seriously think I was talking about C?

forest

00:15

C is neither obscure nor a historical curiosity.

Most devices in the world run operating systems written largely in C.

user

~~Unfortunately~~

Seggan

^^^

forest

I have to say, I really really like C, but I really really don't like insecure languages.

Seggan

thats why im considering c (not bc insecurity)

forest

@Seggan C is a great language, but it lets you shoot yourself in the foot.

A perfect programmer will write perfect C code and turn it into a perfect program (in fact, a lot of formally verified software which is provably bug-free is written in C). But no one is a perfect programmer and C assumes the programmer is always right.

user

00:16

Well, it's in very restrictive subsets of C

forest

@user I don't think so. seL4 uses all C features (for C98 I believe).

user

Ah ok

Seggan

iirc c99 was a huge upgrade

anyway, the tl;dr of this convo was either c or rust

forest

Hm, I don't actually remember which version it used, but it was one of the older versions (before VLAs and the like).

@Seggan It depends on what your goal is.

C and Rust are similar in that they're both system-level languages, but C assumes you are always right and Rust refuses to compile unless it can prove you are right.

Seggan

i need something that can interact with native libs and can run on armv6

forest

00:18

Is security or easy multithreading a priority?

Seggan

and no slow interpreted languages, thank you very much

forest

Rust can interact with native libs (which, by and large, will be C).

Seggan

@forest mild security, mild concurrency

security as in "nobody can hack this"?

forest

As in "oops I accidentally a bounds check here, now I got pwnt"

Seggan

ah

yeah then security would be nice

forest

00:20

@Seggan C is fine for mild concurrency. As for security, that depends on the system. If you're parsing a huge and complex format, just use Rust. If it's mostly systems-level programming with some mild concurrency that pthreads would be fine for, C is fine.

@Seggan Then go with Rust. Although I think C is a better language to learn if you don't know any other low-level (low-level compared to Java) languages. But Rust will fight you along the way until you learn how to use it the way it wants to be used. That can be a pain (from what I've heard - I suck at Rust), but it ensures you'll be free of memory corruption bugs.

What is the project for? What are you writing?

Seggan

kinda hard to explain

forest

Kernel or userspace application (or bare metal)?

Seggan

im not writing OSes :P

Nobody Needs Names

Let's rename this room <Chat between Seggan and forest>

Seggan

its mostly a base program for lua extensions for an RPI project

forest

00:22

Ah.

A base program to do what kind of things?

Like, an interface for editing files and the like (some kind of system API)?

Seggan

id gladly use kotlin, but its native support sucks and there is no jvm past 11 on the pi zero

@forest more of a toy than anything else

forest

Hm, then I'd recommend C unless you explicitly want to learn Rust.

Seggan

GPIO stuff, shift registers, the like

forest

C will be easier for this and probably is a better fit overall.

Aha, then definitely C. You can do that stuff with Rust, but C is ideal for that. Doing anything really low-level like that basically demands that you tell Rust to turn off the very features that makes it Rust. In C, you can just volatile int reg = ADDR; and now you've got MMIO. With Rust you have to tell it "yes yes please make this unsafe YES I really want to edit memory directly NO please don't optimize it away YES I know you think it's a bad idea"

Seggan

mhm ty

i started writing it in c++ but i cant even read what i wrote a week ago

c++ is even worse than java imo

Nobody Needs Names

00:25

@pxeger of what possibility can someone get a tech review?

Seggan

there are no more technical previews of copilot

forest

@Seggan The problem with C++ is, although it's very powerful, it's too powerful. It has too many features.

Seggan

^

forest

C++ is probably great for large organizations that can define a standard subset of features and tell all their devs to use them, but if you're a sole developer, it's like walking into a NASA equipment storehouse when you just want to change your tire.

emanresu A

Gotta love him/her/they

forest

00:27

Rust is also very powerful like C++, but it's focused more on security and doesn't add everything and the kitchen sink like C++ does. C on the other hand is a much more gentle and simple, if overly trusting, language.

Also learning C will teach you how to work on *nix systems more easily (that's why I learned it). :P

Seggan

the one thing im scared of in c is char[]

otherwise its fine

forest

That's not unsurprising. C's biggest downside is its clunky string handling (strings are just arrays of chars and are treated as such, often necessitating pointer arithmetic). But if you are familiar with GPIO and shift registers and whatnot, you probably understand pointers well enough. :P

Have you read K&R?

Seggan

nope

only programming book i read was effective java

forest

I suggest you buy or download that book (get the 2nd edition). It's pretty short and explains ANSI C, which is similar enough to "modern" C that it's pretty much 99.9% the same. It won't teach you all the standard library functions, just the core language, which is fine as long as you're willing to read function manpages from time to time.

Seggan

👍

ty for the very helpful advice

forest

00:36

No problem. Just a disclaimer: While I know C, I know very little Rust. But what I've been saying seems to be the general consensus among both C and Rust system programmers.

thejonymyster

@att was remembering that aswell yea

Seggan

00:51

@pxeger Vyxal, 2 bytes: {1

pushes 1 onto the stack forever

emanresu A

Any geefbckad?

OldSandboxPosts

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: How far from binary?

AviFS

LYAL started an hour ago, right?

Aiden Chow

@AviFS ye i think so

jellyfish seems to be highest upvoted lang

AviFS

I'm down to save Jellyfish for next week

DLosc isn't around

Let's go with makina!

We did dc which only has one more vote

emanresu A

01:07

Ginger's not here ither

AviFS

We did dc which has the same number of votes*

@Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms Hiiiiiiiiya!

Radvylf Programs

Oh hi!

AviFS

Hi oh!

@emanresuA Oh, yeah it doesn't really have any documentation...

Radvylf Programs

Well that's how we seem to like our esolangs here at CGCC™ :p

AviFS

Except Ginger not being here is a problem

Radvylf Programs

01:11

Yeah, definitely. I also don't think it's actually finished, although I haven't checked in on it in a while

AviFS

I'm quickly finding another esolang to post and get to four votes, haha

Radvylf Programs

If we hadn't just done rSN I'd volunteer one of mine like dotcomma or In Floop

emanresu A

Too tarpit

I would suggest Halfwit but it's an incoherent mess.

AviFS

Quantum brainfuck

This is cracking me up

forest

That's incredible.

emanresu A

01:17

@hyper-neutrino How does your Jelly compressor work?

hyper-neutrino

oh it's been too long let me see if i can even remember

forest

esolangs.org/wiki/(_%CD%A1%C2%B0_%CD%9C%CA%96_%CD%A1%C2%B0)fuck Wow, I never took much time to look through this site (beyond the mainstream esolangs) but this is awesome (in a very stupid way). It's like shitposting, but with code.

Radvylf Programs

Half the site is BF derivatives lol

forest

I'm not surprised. And that one was a trivial one.

Seggan

@AviFS i started working on quantum jelly a while ago :P

emanresu A

01:20

Idea: Fish Jelly

forest

esolangs.org/wiki/K-on_Fuck lots of trivial BF substitutions. topkek

Seggan

so... whats for lyal

Aiden Chow

@emanresuA codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/24712/96039 lolol

AviFS

Wow

> Ypsilax is a non-deterministic, reflective, two-dimensional grid-rewriting language. Rewriting rules look for patterns in the grid and replace them with other patterns. These rules are themselves represented by patterns in the grid, and therefore rules can match and rewrite other rules.

lyxal

@Seggan F#?

Seggan

01:23

id love to learn makina

lyxal

13 mins ago, by AviFS

Except Ginger not being here is a problem

AviFS

The fact that rules can match and rewrite other rules reminds me of ///

Seggan

flobnar seems the highest voted one that meets the "poster is here" criteria

~~lets learn fig~~

des54321

so wait why are we not just doing flobnar?

AviFS

dunno, i'm just looking for another one that i can get to four votes before we start

we're running out of langs anyway

Seggan

01:28

@JoKing you here?

AviFS

i've run into muriel like a million times

Jo King

sure

AviFS

are you guys interested in learning it?

> Muriel has no traditional control structures. Instead, Muriel has a command to replace the currently running Muriel program with a given string, and run that instead. This leads to a programming method where a program must quine itself in order to perform any sort of loop.

Aiden Chow

@AviFS sounds waaaaay too big brain for me

Seggan

wait what i got kicked from the preview

lyxal

01:31

@Seggan yeah it said something about having to start the trial again

des54321

@AviFS damn that looks like a painful tarpit

well i guess less of a tarpit and more of pain

Wezl oOvOo

@AviFS sure let's learn that because I want to LYXAL flobnar but I won't be available today so better do something else :P

Seggan

oh well, i guess ill go copilotless until i either get my student pack or get my paycheck

lyxal

@Seggan I will copilot for you as I can do it for free

Seggan

ty

tbh $100/year is not too bad

AviFS

01:38

I'm curious about these reversible langs on the esolang wiki.

I've looked at several of them and I'm not sure I really get it.

Do you guys?

Here's reversible brainfuck by ais523

Radvylf Programs

Was just thinking about reversible computing a minute ago lol

Bubbler

Didn't look around other langs but imo Stack Cats demonstrates it pretty well

emanresu A

^

Stack cats is a difficult mathematical problem

Bubbler

Not sure if reversible bf is truly reversible

AviFS

@RadvylfPrograms What langs?!

@Bubbler Gonna give it a look!

Radvylf Programs

01:46

@AviFS None in particular, I've been thinking of making my own for a while now

Probably not any time soon though

AviFS

That'd be really interesting-- seems hard to do

@Bubbler Why is it a requirement that programs be symmetric?

Seggan

so um... we having lyal or what?

Bubbler

@AviFS Idk, I'm not Martin Ender :)

AviFS

@Seggan Maybe Stack Cats :p

Radvylf Programs

@AviFS That's Stack Cats' thing. Otherwise it'd just be normal cats :p

AviFS

01:50

@Bubbler But I mean, it's an arbitrary requirement just to make it more interesting and challenging, right?

Bubbler

But there's a theme of being symmetric for every other aspect of the language

Radvylf Programs

@AviFS Yes

AviFS

I just wanna make sure I'm not missing something.

Bubbler

the operations and corresponding chars, and even the name itself is palindrome (if you ignore the space)

AviFS

I seem to remember Martin Ender had a bounty on doing something in Stack Cats

22

A: List of bounties with no deadline

1000 – 2000 rep for figuring out how to program with both halves of a Stack Cats program This bounty needs a bit of background, so bear with me. Stack Cats is an esolang with fairly strong constraints on its program structure. Specifically, each valid program has to have mirror symmetry, and th...

Bubbler

01:52

"finding a way to write nontrivial programs that utilizes both halves of the program"

AviFS

@Bubbler Yeah...

I'm down to learn it as the LYAL lang of the week without the constraint that programs be symmetric.

And then we'll be in a place to play around with that bounty/challenge later.

I'm just intrigued by the reversible part. Is anyone else interested? Let me know and I'll post it the LYAL meta post.

Bubbler

You can ignore half of the program anyway with <*(abc)*(cba)*> boilerplate

AviFS

Right, thanks, I saw that. So anything we come up with, ignoring the constraint, can still trivially be made into a valid program.

Bubbler

and LYAL is a single-day (not week) event

and it doesn't need a meta post

emanresu A

1 hour ago, by emanresu A

Any geefbckad?

AviFS

02:02

Writing up a thingy for Stack Cats.

@Bubbler The other thing :p I meant an answer to the LYAL lang nominations

Bubbler

It was already done before

AviFS

Wait, what. It was already downvoted and I didn't even finish writing it up.

@Bubbler I'm gonna die.

I was trying to ask that, haha

I don't know how I missed it.

Bubbler

Protip: Ctrl+F

AviFS

Whelp. That's a bummer.

Anyway, what's our lang then?

We doing Flobnar?

Or does someone else have any last-minute ideas

I don't get why all these langs on the wiki are calling themselves reversible, though. Most of them don't seem to be.

Bubbler

That's just the problem of allowing anyone to add categories

AviFS

02:18

Another.

@Bubbler But it's so weird. A lot of them actually label it a reversible lang in the introduction. With words. Not just lazy hashtag-slapping.

Aiden Chow

@AviFS but who can teach that here?

Bubbler

@AviFS I mean, the one who came up with the language would be writing the article, and they might think the lang is reversible without quite understanding what it is

and then they write the introduction and stuff and label it as reversible, and the end result is what you see

Jo King

02:34

is there a language where you have to clean all your data structures up before you finish?

Bubbler

03:09

"have to" meaning "manually"?

emanresu A

I just rewrote the Jelly decompressor

And I tried caird and it gave caird coinheres

So close but so far

Bubbler

@JoKing Nothing that comes to mind. Rust feels somewhat close but also opposite, in that every object that goes out of scope has drop called automatically

Jo King

i was just imagining it as an alternate definition of a reversible language, clearing the stack, resetting the registers, etc.

Bubbler

Kinda related: Factor requires that the stack is empty when a script ends

apparently it runs but it errors at the end

AviFS

Who would downvote Retina?

@Bubbler Right, but to have that be like one of the first words you use when explaining the language? I can't figure out what they thought was reversible about some of them.

Bubbler

03:24

I can't read their minds so /shrug

AviFS

@AidenChow Martin Ender has a lot of good documentation for it.

github.com/m-ender/retina/wiki/The-Language

Bubbler

Neil can do Retina pretty well I think

and we've had some LYALs without teachers, more like "self-learning together"

PyGamer0

@Bubbler why though?

Unrelated String

extra junk on the stack might be indicative of some logic slip somewhere

PyGamer0

oh.

emanresu A

05:42

My new language is gonna have automatic dictionary compression

emanresu A

06:03

\o/ successfully stole hyper's Jelly compression alg

Don't know how it works tho :P

hyper-neutrino

me neither

all i know is it's dynamic programming and to calculate the optimal form for a word, i iterate from 1 up to the length of the longest dictionary word and check if that substring is in the dictionary, and if so i try using the dictionary entry, and then insert the character manually and see which is smaller

i could optimize it more with a trie of some sort

emanresu A

Me: // stolen from hyper-neu

Copilot: hyper-neurotic

hyper-neutrino

maybe copilot knows something I don't

emanresu A

LOL

@hyper-neutrino That's kinda inefficient considering the length of the longest word is 58, but I'm not sure there's a better way :P

And it's pretty fast anyway

hyper-neutrino

there is definitely a better way

i forget if the compressor goes forward or backwards but by building either a trie or reversed trie i can pre-emptively detect if the substring will not fit any longer words and stop

it was fast enough for what i needed it for so i never optimized it any further but there are a lot of performance improvements that could be done

Fatalize

08:19

@emanresuA I always found dictionary compression to be a pretty boring way to golf bytes off for a language

7

Can’t deny that it’s very effective though

New Posts

08:35

0

Q: How far from binary?

Given a decimal integer n as input, output the smallest (in terms of absolute value) decimal integer m such that the absolute value of n-m is a binary integer (composed only of 1s and 0s). n and m can be any integer, positive or negative. Example Let n = 702. The closest binary integer is 1000 = ...

Newly Featured Posts

09:51

11

Q: Permutations summing to permutations

Given an integer \$N\$ consider a permutation \$p=p_1,p_2,p_3,\ldots\$ of \$1,\ldots,N-1\$. Let \$P = p_1 , p_1+p_2 \bmod N, p_1+p_2+p_3 \bmod N, \ldots\$ be its prefix sums modulo \$N\$. Sometimes \$P\$ will be a permutation of \$1,\ldots,N-1\$ itself. For example, \$N=4: p=3,2,1 \rightarrow P=3...

code-golf permutations

Newly Featured Posts

10:17

18

Q: Straighten my corners... diagonally

We can arrange the positive integers like this: 1_| 2 | 5 | 10 4___3_| 6 | 11 9___8___7_| 12 16 15 14 13 That is, in L-shaped brackets expanding down and right infinitely. Then, we can read it off with the antidiagonals: 1 2 5 10 / / / 4 3 6 11 / / / 9 8 7 12 / / / 16 15 14 13...

code-golf sequence grid

18

Q: Detect Mongolian vowel harmony

The Mongolian language has "vowel harmony". In short the vowel harmony means that certain vowels are not allowed to be placed next to each other in a word. This means that suffixes of words have to care about the vowels present in the words they attach to and need to resolve to a vowel that mat...

code-golf decision-problem natural-language

lyxal

Vyxal advertising™ at its finest™

emanresu A

Lol

emanresu A

10:58

> You couldn't have added another failing test? :p

emanresu A

11:17

Random thought of the day:

> Cats have a carbon pawprint.

o/

thejonymyster

13:00

this as a koth? :P

Seggan

13:24

@Fatalize agree with both

@emanresuA fig (will) use a compressor where it checks if the string starts with a word in the dict, starting with the longest, if no, compress that char and try again

i dont think theres a simpler way

thejonymyster

CMP: how terrible of an idea would it be if instead of closing general programming questions we edited them to be challenges :P

Seggan

terrible

basically changing the question itself

user

Depends on how much you edit them

If you edit them to be really good challenges then it's obviously not a terrible idea

If you do the bare minimum to make it pass our standards then it's not that great an idea

thejonymyster

@Seggan i fail to see whats wrong with this part, its not like the original question is going to get answered here

Seggan

13:40

edits are not supposed to change any challenge specs

user

Yeah a good challenge is a good challenge, no matter what its origins. It'd be more problematic if you didn't change the question much because it might kinda border on plagiarism

Seggan

the specs are the authors'

user

I think thejonymyster meant the author would put it in the Sandbox, we would suggest edits, and they would put those edits back into the original question

thejonymyster

no i meant the very terrible literal interpretation of what i said

i just wanted a gauge of how terrible it was :P

nobody who posts here while lost is going to care about putting it in the sandbox

@Seggan general programming questions aren't challenges, and generally lack specs to begin with

the obvious real solution is to just let the post get closed and sandbox whatever challenge idea it gave you

Seggan

> The position of braces is less important, although people hold passionate beliefs.

i love this writing style

@thejonymyster my point is edits are not for doing stuff for the author

thejonymyster

13:44

^^ same its so good

@Seggan fair point

i guess i just think its like... it wouldnt really be for them, its more for us to have a challenge and not a random junk question that needs to sit around before it gets deleted

Seggan

we can always just encourage them to do it

thejonymyster

:-)c that could be good and not terrible actually

user

> :-)c

Is that a beard or what?

@thejonymyster I have to agree with Seggan then lol

@thejonymyster Someone actually tried rephrasing their general problem as a challenge once to trick people into doing their homework lol

thejonymyster

lmao

code breakdown:

:-)c
:    eyes
 -   nose
  )  mouth
   c hand

the transition back to irc from discord is hard yall i need my mojies

Seggan

14:03

people still use IRC?

thejonymyster

i thought this was a form of irc

lyxal

📈🅾

at least, not really.

user

14:25

CMQ: Has anyone used React Native, Xamarin, or Flutter for a cross platform app? How easy was it to interface with Objective C iOS APIs or Java Android APIs?

PyGamer0

15:35

> Rust is on its seventh year as the most loved language with 87% of developers saying they want to continue using it.

wow

nice

thejonymyster

nice

are these % of all programmers asked or % of all programmers currently using [language]

PyGamer0

idk check the survery yourself

Seggan

wait it came out?

PyGamer0

@thejonymyster and the heading is most loved text editors

Seggan

@PyGamer0 whered ya find it

nvm survey.stackoverflow.co/2022

Radvylf Programs

15:52

> Those learning to code are less likely to identify as straight/heterosexual than Professional Developers

Correlation or causation? :p

DLosc

@Seggan I'm of the opinion that braces should go on the teeth

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms Wait it's backwards so it's not as funny

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Once people get industry jobs, they become straighter :P

hyper-neutrino

i am inclined to say that both are caused by a third factor

those learning to code are probably a younger population compared to professional developers :P

thejonymyster

that or shadow people

my go-to third factor

Radvylf Programs

15:56

Huh, usually there's a smaller percentage of male developers each year, but there was actually a (very tiny) increase this year

DLosc

> Younger (under 18) respondents rely most on online resources and are most likely to of learned from online courses or certifications.

ಠ_ಠ

Radvylf Programs

We got like a 0.07% decrease in the years before, so it'd only be ~600 years before software developers are an equal mix of genders

@DLosc Personally I kind of like this sort have typo

DLosc

At least write it as "to've"

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms *sort've

Seggan

seems java is hated more than it is loved sniffs

people like c++ more than java whaaaat

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