The Nineteenth Byte

mathcat

11:00

make you a lang for great good

Nobody Needs Names

oh i see

> Language Design Workshop

me same q

pxeger

@Seggan I note your reference to AWS' terms of service, lol

emanresu A

Wait what? Where?

Nobody Needs Names

@mathcat i can help you write the controller script

but i first want to know if it is ok

(asking the community)

mathcat

Thanks, but I'm already halfway done

Nobody Needs Names

11:08

oh ok

meh

wait, if there is 10 total tickets and you submitted 5 which was the most do you get 1/10 or 1/2

and does nobody get anything by tie or everyone gets or all tied bots get

@mathcat

mathcat

no, not like that

Only the winner of the lottery gets the prize money

Not necessarily the one with the most tickets

They'll just have a higher chance of winning

Nobody Needs Names

oh ok

i see

make it clear and don't say something like, it's that video check that out and everything's the same

mathcat

okay thanks

Nobody Needs Names

can anyone tell me how the import inspector works in codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/247287/… ?

thanks

Fatalize

@flawr Hi Flawr, sorry for the late answer: here’s how you should do it. Note that I imported library clpfd in the header: this allows us to use #=, #>, etc., which are "declarative" versions of "is" (i.e., you can use them in any direction; it works with constraint logic programming under the hood)

This allows your predicate to be run in both directions. Also note that you should refrain from using cuts (!) unless you 100% need to, which is very rare.

Because cuts are not declarative behaviours, so it introduces side-effects especially when you want such kinds of multi-directional behaviours

Nobody Needs Names

11:20

good mathcat

oh, and why is it called part 1? more coming up? oooooooh

@mathcat .

mathcat

@NobodyNeedsNames yeah, there are 3 more parts

Fatalize

Also, if it’s for school or whatever and you need to argue for the use of clpfd, using library(clpfd) is so standard that it shouldn’t even need to imported in the first place. In some Prolog distributions like SICSTUS, it’s even imported by default.

Nobody Needs Names

can you spoiler it

mathcat

It's from the video.

Fatalize

@DLosc …I think mine is simpler :P

@lyxal u wot

lyxal

11:26

you heard me

Ginger

Lopef only diootesteh t ,.tniwmnae on ,th u LeseGttlltfGariglnanAs num ruggaea ceg nrt anyaoeareiT o aget d!Peld le eo bbloaWh'w goYreai aa

Fatalize

What are you stealing and for what purposes?

Ginger

Why have you pasted a script for some TV show in here

@lyxal bakerize this mess please

lyxal

@Fatalize metapredicates for adaptation into modifiers for another esolang

→ 3 rainbow uranium laced jellybeans moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

Fatalize

Is that the infamous jelly+brachylog mashup?

lyxal

11:28

no, Vyxal

emanresu A

wait what

mathcat

@lyxal uranium

Fatalize

But you’re making a declarative language then?

lyxal

stack

I was hard strapped for ideas and got inspiration from one or two of the metapredicates

Fatalize

disappointed noise

I don’t get what you’re borrowing though: the code, the syntax, or the behaviour of some metapreds?

lyxal

11:30

behaviour

Fatalize

Which metapreds are you using?

Some would be hard to reimplement in an imperative language

lyxal

one second, just gotta look back through the list of things I wrote down

ʰ and ᵗ

Fatalize

ah

What’s the specificities of this new lang then?

lyxal

It's for version 3 of Vyxal

so basically major improvements over v2 of the language

Nobody Needs Names

23 mins ago, by Nobody Needs Names

can anyone tell me how the import inspector works in https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/247287/king-of-the-hill-greed-control ?

PyGamer0

11:39

> 3063 commits

wow

Fatalize

I see

mathcat

vyxal?

PyGamer0

yeah

Nobody Needs Names

@mathcat edge case: what if everyone chose 0? codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/24855/111945

mathcat

ah, right thanks

then nobody will get the money

lyxal

11:41

@mathcat you can blame hyper for that

Nobody Needs Names

@mathcat there's a more severe and more likely edge case in round two where there is no unique number

PyGamer0

@Fatalize perhaps?

mathcat

very cool hyper

flawr

@Fatalize definitely not for school, just for golfing:)

lyxal

@PyGamer0 yeah, Perhaps is probably the Jelly + Brachylog lang here

flawr

11:43

It was one of the recent challenges

PyGamer0

@lyxal ~~i meant the word perhaps~~

Nobody Needs Names

but I guess that;s all 0 too

mathcat

@NobodyNeedsNames wdym? Then everyone has the same chance of winning

flawr

@Fatalize thank you! I'll have to read more about it!

lyxal

@PyGamer0 oh lol

Fatalize

11:43

@flawr Well one of the big downsides for golfing is that clpfd is very useful as you see, but it takes a lot of bytes to just import it

PyGamer0

@lyxal unrelated perhaps?

lol

Fatalize

(which is partly why I had created Brachylog, because in that language it uses clpfd for all integer operations by default)

lyxal

@UnrelatedString congratulations you just got a name confusion joke

PyGamer0

unrelated string + perhaps = confusion

flawr

@Fatalize maybe I should take the time to learn it some day:)

so this was the solution @DLosc proposed codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/247889/24877

(I haven't used prolog in ages, and it seemed like a fun challenge to try it in:)

Nobody Needs Names

11:49

@mathcat wait, can you explain the 5 rounds? i dont really want to watch the 1hr video right now and my Accelerate Addon is broken

mathcat

you'll have to wait :P

Fatalize

@flawr @DLosc 1 less byte with my approach with basic golfing

flawr

@Fatalize go post it!!! :)

PyGamer0

can anyone explain me how the logic paradigm works?

Nobody Needs Names

@mathcat hmm, how long

Fatalize

11:54

@flawr I think I can golf it a bit more

mathcat

3 days to 1 week

Nobody Needs Names

ok

i prefer no abbr. (pun intended)

> others_tickets: a list with an arbitrary length, the number of tickets the other bots (incl. your bot) told they're going to order (does not have to be true)

and, remember winners can know the total tickets the round they won

oh, and, they don't know who win? oh ok

mathcat

@NobodyNeedsNames no, a bot only knows if it won

@NobodyNeedsNames yeah, that was intended

Nobody Needs Names

@mathcat wait, did you add then it your post?

mathcat

sorry?

Nobody Needs Names

12:00

winners can know the total tickets the round they won

and there's no gold coins right ok...

Wheat Wizard

6

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

In need of title. Note: In the final challenge \$N\$ will be a concrete number (I am thinking about 100), but while this is in the sandbox it is subject to change so I have left it as \$N\$. Currently \$N=133\$ This challenge is based off of a list of \$N\$ Castilian Spanish words and the words...

I want to post this today, so I'd appreciate a check.

It has 3 downvotes and I'm not sure exactly for what reason.

Fatalize

4 actually

:P

(not mine)

mathcat

probably because "In need of a title"

not catchy enough

user

That wouldn't elicit downvotes

flawr

@WheatWizard why not use the normal levnshtein distacne?

mathcat

12:05

^

flawr

And I think you could add a whole dictionary worth of words:)

Wheat Wizard

@flawr I wanted mistakes on accents to count less, so á is closer to a then o or f.

emanresu A

The downvote was mine, after reading Robin Ryder's comments.

flawr

I see

Wheat Wizard

@emanresuA This really frustrates me because, noone has come forward with any suggestion. Balancing two variables is really hard and not something I've ever seen done well. So the suggestion boils down to "You should do this really hard thing that might not work".

Like yeah it would be cool. But ... it's not practically possible.

Fatalize

12:08

Why not just multiply the score by the number of bytes?

for the final score

flawr

I was about to suggest that too!

Wheat Wizard

Because then you are going to incentivise strategies on one end.

A zero byte cat has a perfect score.

emanresu A

I agree that it's difficult to calibrate, but setting a hard limit just unevens the playing field.

user

^

Wheat Wizard

Like it's a balancing problem.

@emanresuA How does it uneven the playing field?

user

12:10

Languages that are really verbose (like Java) aren't going to be able to do much

flawr

I do really like the idea of the challenge, and I do agree that the hard limit is not very nice, I'd prefer something more open.

Wheat Wizard

How can I possibly make a scoring method that takes into account bytes that doesn't give a massive advantage to terse languages?

flawr

they can still have a massive advantage, but with 100 bytes you practically exclude some languages from even participating

Fatalize

We don’t compare much across different languages anyway so that’s not the problem

Jo King

doesn't it already bias towards terse languages?

emanresu A

12:11

^^^

Fatalize

the problem is that if the limit is say 100 bytes, you’ll never get a good score with e.g. Java

emanresu A

It's after midnight in my timezone, o/

flawr

cu

Jo King

@Fatalize while technically this is true, it does feel a bit different with a non-code-golf challenge

Wheat Wizard

@JoKing emeransu says it unbalances the playing field, which implies there's some situation in which the playing field is balanced.

flawr

12:12

I think in some other challenge I used the scoring score = (1 + criterion_a) * (1 + criterion_b)

Wheat Wizard

There's a lot of these challenges that try to balance two scores and it always incentivises breaking the scoring rather than solving the problem.

caird coinheringaahing

I've found that dual scoring criteria being multiplied almost always leads to one score being prioritised at the expense of the other

flawr

you will always have those...

Wheat Wizard

Like unless someone gives a SC that has a compelling reason that it's not going to be broken, I would rather have the current SC.

Fatalize

Maybe set the limit as like 25% of the number of chars of the words, and not the number of words

Jo King

12:15

i'm mostly okay with it, apparently i upvoted it already ages ago

Wheat Wizard

Hm, interesting.

caird coinheringaahing

I don't necessarily think that a byte length restriction is the best idea, but a) I don't think it's bad enough to justify a downvote, and b) I'm interested to see if it actually does lead to the imbalance suggested

flawr

@WheatWizard right, and I think many people agree that the current criterion is not very satisfying:/

Fatalize

Caird and flawr’s avatars are too similar this is confusing

6

Nobody Needs Names

@cairdcoinheringaahing well, i think character length is better than byte length given there are 2byte chars

@Fatalize agree. star

Wheat Wizard

12:16

I can take downvotes.

At this point I guess I just don't care. The criticism is not constructive so I'm just going to let it fly.

caird coinheringaahing

@Fatalize I have an italic name :P

4

Nobody Needs Names

o/

caird coinheringaahing

@NobodyNeedsNames The difference is immaterial to my point

emanresu A

@cairdcoinheringaahing What if you write programs at both ends of the spectrum - one which gets a perfect score, and one which has short code but is pretty much a cat, or very close to?

Then try and balance the scoring between them?

Alright actually o/ now

flawr

@WheatWizard I wouldn't say that! I think it is a great challenge but it still needs some things worked out!

Nobody Needs Names

12:17

o/o/o/o/o/

Wheat Wizard

The problem with dual scoring is that it has to be balanced across multiple languages.

Nobody Needs Names

yes

Wheat Wizard

Balancing it at all is hard and honestly probably impossible with more than like 3 possible languages.

Nobody Needs Names

brainfuck will struggle to even output something

flawr

but no matter the criterion, there will always be an advantaged language and one that is less advantageous

Nobody Needs Names

12:18

yes

unless you say

caird coinheringaahing

@PyGamer0 Once the meta discussion looks to be settled, we can update the room schedule

@NobodyNeedsNames Then don't use brainfuck

flawr

@Fatalize (you should add a christmas hat too btw)

we're celebrating half-christmas soon

Fatalize

@flawr …on a logo?

Wheat Wizard

@flawr I'm not trying to balance between languages, that would be absurd. I'm trying to balance it so that neither a cat nor a code-golf are the best solutions.

Nobody Needs Names

everyone wins

@cairdcoinheringaahing ok

Wheat Wizard

12:19

The byte limit has the same issue of course, but to a much smaller extent since there is only one variable.

Nobody Needs Names

@flawr oh yes

Jo King

brainfuck might not be too bad, you'd have to find an interesting way to manipulate the string

Nobody Needs Names

i challenge you to do it

;-)

Wheat Wizard

For a byte limit I mostly have to insure that you can probably do something, and that there's not enough space to do everything.

flawr

@WheatWizard I'd just find it unfortunate to prevent certain languages from participating, even if they don't have good chance of being the best.

Nobody Needs Names

12:21

yes

caird coinheringaahing

I do like Fatalize's idea where the limit depends on the chars instead of the number of words

Especially as the chars are much more comparable to bytes

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm thinking about that right now.

flawr

@Fatalize sure!

Wheat Wizard

Should it be chars in the input, output or both?

I think 25% of both is a bit too much, it's like 500 bytes.

Nobody Needs Names

is there already an infinite prisoner's dillema challenge? i wanna make one, first search no dupe

but i think there is a dupe

shrug

caird coinheringaahing

12:27

What do you mean by "infinite" prisoner's dilemma? Infinite rounds, infinite players, infinite games?

flawr

5

Fatalize

@flawr …this is cursed

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing so basically normal prisoner's dilemma but it's groundhog day

and both prisoners remember the decisions made on previous loops

Nobody Needs Names

@cairdcoinheringaahing infinite rounds=infinite games=what i mean

yah

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing Infinite prisoner's dilema except the infinity is a transfinite ordinal.

Nobody Needs Names

12:29

bah, the 1000-round prisonner's dillema. great

Ginger

@flawr ooh I want one d:

Wheat Wizard

So you play an infinite number of rounds and then you play another infinite number of rounds and then ...

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWizard Isn't that then the transfinite prisoner's dilemma? :P

2

Nobody Needs Names

yah, except it's like 1000 rounds cuz computers don't take infinite

@cairdcoinheringaahing good point. star.

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing (transfinite is a subset of infinite)

Jo King

12:32

@flawr can i get a hat on my hat?

2

Wheat Wizard

Ok I think I'm going to go with number of words. It's the scoring I had compiled the list with the intention of using so I think it'll be pretty good.

mathcat

@flawr can I get one too?

Nobody Needs Names

@flawr, make one for me hahahahahahahahaha

And I will change my username to "Nobody Needs Hats"

lol

and suddenly @flawr is gone

when he's back he'll have 10 messages in his inbox

thejonymyster

anyone see any issues with this before i post? might still give it a bit just in case

Nobody Needs Names

post it right now

but wait

does space and newlines count?

@thejonymyster .

i'll give a 50 bounty to the first 0-score answer

Jo King

12:49

> Printable ASCII here means character codes 32-126 inclusive as well as character code 10 (newline)

Nobody Needs Names

@JoKing oh ok thnx

@JoKing I ALWAYS FORGET TO REPLY LET ME EDIT THAT IN ARGHHHHH

mathcat

you don't need to reply

Jo King

you don't really need to reply if there's no-one else chatting

Wheat Wizard

@thejonymyster That looks fun. I hope you post it today since I want to do it :)

Ginger

Nobody Needs Names

12:57

@WheatWizard ne too

@mathcat oh ok

@Ginger congrats

thejonymyster

@NobodyNeedsNames yes, and it does say it in the post, but i'll clarify explicitly in the post since I don't want anyone to miss it. Thanks :)

omg golfing in code golf

Nobody Needs Names

@thejonymyster ???

thejonymyster

oh sorry i meant the pic :P

@Ginger someone should make a challenge where you implement a golf game :P

so we can golf golf

Nobody Needs Names

13:12

yah

maybe, let's golf a question to golf golf so we can golf a golf a golf game golf question

New Posts

0

Q: Count `/[^a-z]/gi` with `/[a-z]/gi`

Write a program or function which takes a string of text as input and outputs the number of non-alphabetical characters in it (standard I/O rules apply). A non-alphabetical character is any character not appearing in this string: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ In terms of A...

thejonymyster

golf this ^

im really curious to see how answers to this go

it's not one of those challenges that (i find) are restrictively hard to find any solution to, so plenty of people should be able to participate, but i wonder how answers will be optimized for score

even something like that poem lang has to worry about spaces :P so idk

PyGamer0

@Ginger is that a game that you are making

Ginger

nope

it's a game I found on GitHub

PyGamer0

oh ok

thejonymyster

13:24

truly tragic that you can't code format in the title of a post :P

Nobody Needs Names

why the downvote

oic

now i am looking for a letters-only esolang

thejonymyster

@NobodyNeedsNames i know of this one, which isnt letters Only but it might work

Wheat Wizard

lenguage

thejonymyster

lol

also hm, this language has a lot more non letters than i remembered :P

whats that one language thats like

Nobody Needs Names

@thejonymyster very hard to output numbers

thejonymyster

13:38

it figures out which things are tokens if they repeat exactly 3 times or something?

@NobodyNeedsNames dang u_u welp thats all i got :P

lyxal

@NewPosts oh boy this is like that time Aaroneous, emanresuA and I did a vyxal cop-cracking chain on print X without X

Nobody Needs Names

?why?

lyxal

you'll see lol

mathcat

frick

are you gonna outgolf me again?

Ginger

that is disconcerting

lyxal

13:45

outgolf?

hell no

outscore is what I'mma do

mathcat

I'm going to use flags then

lyxal

flagless too

Nobody Needs Names

don't flag his post though ;-)

Ginger

semaphore: a language where the code is flags passed to the interpreter

mathcat

oooh

4 bytes!!!

thejonymyster

13:49

lol the name

someone should solve it in incident

mathcat

@lyxal nah beat score 0

lyxal

well that's what my score was going to be

just thousands of bytes longer

mathcat

oh no that again

lyxal

yup

it was looking to be ~13k bytes

but doesn't matter now

thejonymyster

@mathcat is it working with newlines? i cant tell :P

lyxal

13:54

Yes

mathcat

yes

Well []'s gonna beat me now.

3 bytes with flag

lyxal

@mathcat why would you say that? Have you no confidence in your answer? :p

much better

Nobody Needs Names

@lyxal wait wdym

lyxal

2

A: Print X without X (robber's thread)

Vyxal O, 81892 bytes, cracks EmanresuA's Vyxal answer I obviously can't post the actual code here, so here's a sample of it: !¬¬⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧kA!¬⇧wİ÷Ė!¬⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧...

that's an example of what I mean

obviously that wouldn't be the actual program, but it's that kind of answer

Ginger

hey why the hell did you make multiple-megabyte programs

thejonymyster

13:59

@lyxal reddit voice omg that code is full of upvotes

mathcat

get ratio'd

3

lyxal

@Ginger megabytes? Bruh we got an answer that was 97330700 terabytes

4

A: Print X without X (robber's thread)

Vyxal, 97330683540476391235 bytes ,cracker'sd lyxal's answre Sample: ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPP11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPPĖk1k11ooĖk1k11ooĖkoĖĖ11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPP11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPPĖk1k11ooĖk1k11ooĖkoĖĖ11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPP11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPPĖkoĖĖ11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPP11ĖPkPkPkoPkoĖĖPPPk1k11ooĖk1k11ooĖk1k11ooĖkoĖĖ11ĖPkPkPkoP...

Ginger

ಠ_ಠ

lyxal

mostly because we have no life

and because we wanted to see how far we could restrict the available character set

Ginger

well you sure ,cracker'sd lyxal's answre

lyxal

14:03

there were 69 total cops + cracks in that chain lol

completely unplanned too

mathcat

nice

but 69 isn't even?

lyxal

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ don't ask me ask emanresuA

I didn't the counting

thejonymyster

\ಠ/ truly a mystery

wait oh my god i need to bring back a face

how do you quote a message

lyxal

just copy-paste the link lol

mathcat

>

lyxal

14:08

that's for blockquotes

thejonymyster

May 25 at 15:12, by Ginger

lyxal

→ 1 unripe, slightly radioactive, lime moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

mathcat

@thejonymyster the face

Ah yeah, of course. Radioactive lemons.

thejonymyster

CMC: this

mathcat

VTC as language specific

thejonymyster

14:12

vyxal tiny challenge? :P

lyxal

14:27

→ 31 fools, blonguses, and clamponguses moved to Off-Topic TNB

thejonymyster

o7

lyxal

just thought that'd be appropriate because it was getting a tad bit off topic

Ginger

but my bio

thejonymyster

@lyxal it feels like it happens so gradually :O!

i did not even notice

Seggan

@pxeger yep :)

@emanresuA the zombie part of the MYAL chat refinement post

Ginger

14:31

hey lyxal I need an appropriately funny quote for my testing account's bio

lyxal

"mom said it's my turn to touch grass"

mathcat

wow

you need to make a quote generator

Ginger

do you have any that are > 128 characters

mathcat

I didn't change my bio since like 2 months

thejonymyster

lmao, the guy who just posted that off topic on cgcc just edited the post title, spag type stuff

lyxal

14:33

She looked at me as if I’d asked her something really stupid. “A pufferfish is a fish.”
“Oh.”
She smiled and I smiled.
“What’s a pufferfish?” she asked.
“A pufferfish is a fish.”
“Oh.”

mathcat

I remember that from somewhere

lyxal

gist.github.com/AMiller42/0acd050807b73c205c3c5e643a3da66b

Seggan

@mathcat it was GPT generated

Nobody Needs Names

I just watched Money that video

good

3X'd it

mathcat

@Seggan ah

caird coinheringaahing

14:38

The fact that starred messages don't get removed from the starboard when moved to another room is very weird

lyxal

did you clear them just now?

caird coinheringaahing

No

lyxal

well I refreshed the page and they're gone

caird coinheringaahing

Huh, same

Stupid caching

PyGamer0

@thejonymyster can oxygen even do that?

thejonymyster

14:42

yes actually

source

PyGamer0

there is only o8

Ginger

15:01

lambda.chat now supports user bios! Change your bio from your user page, accessed by clicking your pfp in the pfp menu. Maximum length 128 characters (server enforced).

mathcat

nice!

Seggan

why not 1024 chars

Ginger

space reasons

thejonymyster

making a terrible lang, what should i do if a string is passed into the wait/sleep command? :P i was thinking use the length of the string if it cant be converted to a number

yknow what imma ask in the tarpit actually. i will be the change i want to see >:)

oh its too late to delete it here OTL

mathcat

JS Evolve version 2 is here

How does it look?

Ginger

15:17

> "Give someone state and they'll have a bug one day, but teach them how to represent state in two separate locations that have to be kept in sync and they'll have bugs for a lifetime." -ryg

Seggan

@mathcat noice

when will it work?

mathcat

idk, hopefully in 2 weeks

@mathcat @RadvylfPrograms are buttons visible now?

pxeger

@mathcat yes

mathcat

cool

Ginger

FINALLY

I HAVE ACHIEVED UNJIGGLY TABS

mathcat

15:32

what

Ginger

the tabs in tabbed headers don't jiggle when you change them

pxeger

what is a "tabbed header"?

Ginger

internal name for these:

Ginger

15:47

.-.

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