The Nineteenth Byte

Unrelated String

00:43

@cairdcoinheringaahing i feel like outside of something quick and dirty there's no reason not to have a vector class, whether it's for fixed or arbitrary dimensions

if you're doing something in 3d space you better have a dedicated 3d vector type

caird coinheringaahing

Depends on what you're doing with the vectors

@UnrelatedString A lot of the time, you can represent 3d space better with 3x3 matrices

Unrelated String

like if you have points in 3d space to worry about

individual points

which is probably most of the time in like a game engine or whatever

des54321

game engines are definitely the main place where youd use some sort of vector3 class, unity has its own builtin one for sure

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Bold Words for Profit, Generate Fibonacci Primes Quickly

lyxal

02:03

thank you copilot for all these helpful fields

emanresu A

Oh god the comic sans

lyxal

comic mono

2 days ago, by lyxal

ever since one of y'all linked me to comic mono, I've been unironically using it for IntelliJ

Radvylf Programs

I once spent a whole day using a non-monospace font (Atkinson Hyperlegible) in my editor and honestly, it was usable

lyxal

with or without syntax highlighting?

Radvylf Programs

With

lyxal

02:08

yeah, I can see that it'd be usable

Radvylf Programs

The readability was lower since proportional fonts are a lot denser than monospace ones, but it wasn't awful

lyxal

that's what I thought when I tried just comic sans with intellij

non-monospace really does need syntax highlighting though

because without the colour guide, it becomes confusing

at least that's how I see it

(no pun intended)

Don't mind me dropping some lore about @user

As you can see, he originates from the browser session and is a UserBean

that's all. Thank you for attending my TED talk

Ian Delord

02:41

hello, not sure it fits the code golf chat but it sort of does i think, I'm looking for a code legend's name... sort of one of the code golf buffs...

ATaco

03:05

@lyxal My favourite is commendsComments

Most valuable field

thejonymyster

@IanDelord any? or a specific one?

Unrelated String

03:30

any language they're associated with, any particular feats, ...

Nobody

03:42

Superior Simple

Superior Simple: A 2D programming language. See github.com/Sup...

o/ gotta go

PyGamer0

04:14

@Seggan me,, but i use it for everything

emanresu A

05:14

Any feedback? (specifically, the last point in the meta section)

Nobody

What is this

3

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Unrelated String

posted challenge

Nobody

hmmmm

Unrelated String

completely blanked to save space without hiding it from non-10k+ users

Nobody

ok, hmm

emanresu A

05:21

There's one particular incentive not to delete sandboxed posts: Badge progress :|

Nobody

:111945 hmm, inactive

Unrelated String

ｌｍａｏ

emanresu A

With enough time, you could get a gold discussion from only the Sandbox

Nobody

@emanresuA techncally yes

m90

@graffe Yes: tio.run/…

Unrelated String

05:39

anyone else almost never write their own solutions in python but get mad when they see poorly golfed python

emanresu A

Yep

Unrelated String

though i suppose this is an especially bad example

emanresu A

That's some pretty clever golfing though - especially the f-string part

(your golf on it)

Unrelated String

writing a helper lambda to call it once, inequality check with the last value in the relevant range, accumulating a string and printing it, python ternary expression, excess digits on magic numbers

thanks :P

i golfed it in steps of just performing the most obvious reduction at any time and at one point before i got rid of the ternary i forgot that f-strings tie str() and tried to see if that could golf it, so they were fresh on my mind once i had gotten rid of the ternary

emanresu A

Well, 65 I think

Unrelated String

05:48

(i replaced the ternary with list indexing then thought "wouldn't it just be too funny if i could make it flat fstring indexing" so i did)

emanresu A

The min(_, 9) // 1 is probably there for a reason but it seems to be unnecessary?

Unrelated String

oh nice

wait do you actually not have to floor it

emanresu A

Nah, because the rest just extends into the string

Unrelated String

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

fuck that's smart

i knew the fstring was cheeky but i did not think it could be that cheeky

emanresu A

Also, I took the -96 logic away partially

Unrelated String

05:49

smart

emanresu A

Welp, together we halved their code lol

Unrelated String

and the min(_, 9) was necessary at one point but i guess it stopped being necessary after we golfed the magic constants

which raises the question of how they actually came up with the magic constants in the first place

emanresu A

Lol

emanresu A

06:35

tfw copilot tries to put a shell script in .gitignore

Unrelated String

nice

PyGamer0

07:15

hey look i can js const range = (x,y) => x>=y ? [] : [x].concat(range(x+1,y));

emanresu A

Neat but inefficient :P

PyGamer0

@emanresuA how can i improve it

emanresu A

It's pretty clever and simple, however, it will run into the recursion limit.

PyGamer0

yeah it will

hmm what will be the tail recusive version of that (js doesnt optimize that right?)

emanresu A

yeah :P

It's in the ES6 standard but almost no one has implemented it

thejonymyster

07:21

quick regex question if anybody knows

PyGamer0

@emanresuA because its hard to implement?

thejonymyster

' is my escape character, and i need to remove it from a string, is there a more obviously better way to do it than /(?<=(?<!')('')*)'/

emanresu A

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ probably

thejonymyster

ok true

PyGamer0

how does tinylisp implement TCO?

emanresu A

07:24

IIRC it mantains a scope stack and substitutes the call?

PyGamer0

hmm why can js do that?

emanresu A

idk

It's simpler to do with tinylisp because only statements directly returned or in an if-case need to be TCO'd

PyGamer0

> Stock Python implementations do not perform tail-call optimization, though a third-party module is available to do this.[33] Language inventor Guido van Rossum contends that stack traces are altered by tail-call elimination making debugging harder, and prefers that programmers use explicit iteration instead[34]

o_O

Wheat Wizard

07:54

Not having TCO to maintain stack traces is like leaving all your print debugging on in production because "It might error". It's very stupid.

pxeger

08:05

Python has a stupid amount of introspectability, and it's kind of a sunk cost that they won't remove it because a lot of code now relies on it

It's about as impure a language as you can get, because almost every operation can do really strange things

Wheat Wizard

Oh yeah, it's absolutely a bad idea to change now. The real solution is to stop using Python for anything critical.

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard exactly

the most programming languages you know, the more frustrating it gets to use programming languages...

Wheat Wizard

Yeah, it's sort of a curse.

PyGamer0

let me try learning scala (@user will now be happy :P)

Wheat Wizard

Scala is interesting.

lyxal

08:20

Indeed it is

emanresu A

08:41

@WheatWizard Like it or not, a lot of useful stuff is built on Python. It's here to stay.

For example, Youtube, many forums, and Emscripten are all written in python

Wheat Wizard

That's really not why python is here to stay.

Python is here to stay because people keep writing new stuff in it anyways.

pxeger

@WheatWizard I'd say for anything *performance-*critical

Wheat Wizard

No I'd say anything critical at all.

Python code is hard to maintain at any scale and has a tendency to produce nasty bugs.

pxeger

At the extreme, for something like a script that needs to run once a day in O(1) time where performance really doesn't matter, it's perfectly fine

Wheat Wizard

Python's performance isn't really a problem.

pxeger

08:44

I don't think it's fair to blanket-describe any language as hard to maintain

Wheat Wizard

I think it absolutely is.

pxeger

Why?

Wheat Wizard

Why is it fair? Because language design choices effect how easy it is to maintain something. Python has a bunch of issues that mean that Python does not age well.

Nothing ages great, you always have to put in effort, but Python requires more effort than a lot of the alternatives.

pxeger

I don't think Python has anywhere near as many footguns as many other languages

I'd love to have everything written in Haskell with dependent types, but you have to find a middle ground between pure footguns and pure bulletproof glass

For all its faults, Python does that somewhat succesfully

Wheat Wizard

I don't know how it compares to the absolute average, but of the languages I've worked with professionally Python is certainly below the average. The only language that's worse has been JS. Dart, Go, Kotlin, Java, Clojure all have issues, but they don't age as poorly as Python.

PyGamer0

08:54

@WheatWizard scala has a weird function syntax

object Main {
  def main(args: Array[String]): Unit =
    println("Hello, Scala developer!")
}

i dont like that syntax

apart from that, scala looks fine

pxeger

which bit of the syntax do you object to?

the = for expression-like functions?

PyGamer0

yeah

pxeger

IIRC, you can also write them using { return }

but = is in many ways a more natural syntax for functions which are expressions

Unrelated String

and it's nice not to have to

^

Razetime

obligatory @user mention

Wheat Wizard

09:01

A big part is
1. Python has no real design direction, if you look at say e.g. the zen of python it's actually very vague, Python is successful because it's a big tent, this means that Python libraries aren't very uniform and code lacks a strong style, it uses some principles from OOP, but it's not fully OOP, it uses some principles from FP but not that much. It's a weird mixture and it's hard to write good code in the long term for that sort of environment.
2. everyone knows how to write Python (not necessarily well), this contributes in much the same way. Paradoxically it's harder to te…

pxeger

42 mins ago, by PyGamer0

let me try learning scala (@user will now be happy :P)

Razetime

lol

scala is my fave jvm language thanks to user

emanresu A

@pxeger Agreed

@WheatWizard You have to go looking for JS's weirdness, and TypeScript's wayyy better :P

PyGamer0

@pxeger hmm well can't i just use nameless functions at that point?

pxeger

@WheatWizard I agree with these points, but I still don't think they're really a reason to never write Python

@PyGamer0 What exactly do you mean by nameless functions?

PyGamer0

09:06

@pxeger lambdas?

args => body

Razetime

it's a tim toady thing

having more than one way to do it

Wheat Wizard

It's fine to write Python for little scripts. I just wouldn't use it for anything critical. It's not even that Python is that bad, it's just that for whatever there's usually something that does it better. Ruby is pretty good for example, at a lot of the stuff Python tries(?) to do.

PyGamer0

why does this error

mathcat

Is JS good for large programs?

Wheat Wizard

@emanresuA Oh we used mostly TS with some extensions I just call it JS.

PyGamer0

09:09

~~worst thing about python: sympy has ace exploits~~

Razetime

@PyGamer0 seems to run fine on scastie.

@mathcat I have not found JS fun on large programs

lyxal

@PyGamer0 works fine on normal TIO

Razetime

yet to try typescript and purescript but i assume they ease some of the pain

@lyxal possible that it's an ATO problem?

mathcat

@Razetime okay

I'll use scala then

Razetime

what are you using scala for?

mathcat

09:12

Web stuff

Razetime

on a static page?

pxeger

@Razetime it is

mathcat

@Razetime yes

Wheat Wizard

@Razetime TS and PS are very different. I've barely touched PS, but it was pretty nice. I'm not sure if PS is actually a great web language, but it seems like a decent general purpose language and it can do web stuff.

emanresu A

Any feedback?

mathcat

09:30

@emanresuA How could you post "twice (or more) in a row"? You would have to crack your own challenge, right?

emanresu A

slaps face

There's some stuff I probably should've thought aboout before copying

mathcat

but nice challenge, looks fun

emanresu A

Yeah, I'm quite excited about it

So, what's the winning criteria?

mathcat

I don't know what the winning criteria could be tho

ups

I got ninja'd

emanresu A

Honestly considering making it a popcon

mathcat

09:38

yeah maybe

Sandbox Posts

10:37

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Scribble Pad for Nerds. aka. implement an easier version of 05ab1e's canvas element. Description The canvas element is used to draw ASCII lines on the screen. The (easier version of the) canvas element takes a list of integers and returns a multi-line string (or a list of strings). The integers m...

pxeger

10:51

@emanresuA lowest delta of bytes added in the answer?

or just "most safe answers"?

also, what happens if someone forgets to mark their answer as safe and reveal what language it's in?

emanresu A

Ah, frick

emanresu A

11:25

A moment from history:

Congrats on making the Hot Network Questions list! :D — Alex A. May 21, 2015 at 18:56

o/

mathcat

o/

CMQ: In a practical language, should lists be immutable?

Adám

Yes, as should almost everything.

mathcat

11:59

okay

Wheat Wizard

Lists here are linked lists right?

mathcat

12:14

yes

user

13:44

Aww, missed a discussion tangentially involving Scala

@pxeger You actually need = there too. Blocks are just expressions in Scala. It's more consistent that way, although it's debatable whether that consistency is even needed

Kotlin does, however, let you do fun foo(...) {...}

Actually, Scala used to allow def foo(...) {...} too, but that was only for methods returning Unit, which was an odd kind of rule. That syntax is deprecated in Scala 2 and removed in Scala 3

@PyGamer0 Those don't directly allow recursion (you can do it, it can just be mildly annoying). It also doesn't really save bytes if that's what you care about

lyxal

14:20

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Official Animated Video)

►

TIL this exists

mathcat

14:36

yeah I've seen that one

Ginger

ayyy extensions kinda work!

mathcat

16:53

Random Youtuber: [Can you solve FizzBuzz in one line?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV0yhde5xY8)
Entire Code Golf Community: **YES.**

New Posts

17:07

0

Q: Whyte Notation Translator

Whyte Notation is a classification method mainly for steam locomotive, that classifies by wheel arrangement. On a steam locomotive ( we're only focusing on non articulated locomotives here ), the wheels are generally disposed like this : you have a specific number of leading wheels, then a specif...

nitsua60

17:51

@WheatWizard are you familiar with the North American Computational Linguistics Olympiad? You might like it, if that Uilta post is any indication.

Ginger

@mathcat well now we obviously have to flood the comments with answers

Ginger

18:02

hello radvylf

thejonymyster

aloha all, just wanted to get a last check on this before i post. rn it looks good to me but i just wanna be sure im not missing anything out the gate

des54321

@mathcat hold on lemme roll out the one-line form of my piet fizzbuzz program

thejonymyster

i wonder if a true greenlight system would be good for our site :think: though we get a lot of posts so that might be unfeasible

des54321

i really do need to post that soon, although i still want to try to golf it a tiny bit more before i post it

graffe

CMC sample ten non negative integers uniformly that sum to ten

thejonymyster

18:09

wait my tables broke >_<

graffe

@m90 thank you. I am on my phone until tomorrow but will take a proper look in about 13 hours from now

thejonymyster

how come my markdown tables look fine in editing but break in post

graffe

(the CMC is to write code that does that of course)

Ginger

Fun Python tip: You can multiply numbers by boolean values! (True = 1, False = 0)

thejonymyster

fixed it was a spacing issue.. weird

pxeger

18:13

@nitsua60 @WheatWizard There is also the International Linguistics Olympiad (just linguistics, not computational linguistics). They're kind of like logic puzzles

thejonymyster

@Ginger classic

pxeger

@thejonymyster the markdown preview seems to be more flexible with table syntax than when you actually post the answer; it's quite annoying

thejonymyster

@pxeger indeed it is! lol

glad i caught that in sandbox then :]

pxeger

I think you have to make sure to leave a blank line before and after the table?

thejonymyster

i added two before and after

just to be extra safe XD

pxeger

18:16

@pxeger actually, looking at the NACLO, there doesn't seem to be a big difference in question style

nitsua60

Yeah, the ILO is the "parent" of the NACLO--same topics being addressed.

graffe

Have we had a challenge like my CMC?

thejonymyster

how do you sample from integers uniformly again?

iirc theres a lot of them, so it might be hard to sample

Wheat Wizard

@nitsua60 I'm aware of NACLO I did a lot of back exams at university.

graffe

18:35

@thejonymyster in this case you don't need to worry about any bigger than 10

thejonymyster

i dont understand the question then

nitsua60

18:53

@WheatWizard Cool :thumbsup:

Wheat Wizard

It's fun

nitsua60

I run an instance of it at may school, and about every-other year we have a kid go to the invitational round. They blow me away with how quickly and cleverly they can cut through some of these things.

(Probably doesn't hurt that they tend to be tri- or more-lingual, so they've got a lot more good ideas rattling around in their heads than I do!)

graffe

@thejonymyster sample ten non negative Integers that sum to ten. Which bit is not clear?

New Posts

0

Q: Sample integers that sum to one hundred

Given a positive integer n, randomly output n non negative integers that sum to one hundred. Your random sample should be uniformly sampled from all lists of n non negative integers that sum to one hundred.

code-golf probability-theory

thejonymyster

ah, "sampled from all lists of..."

right, thx

graffe

19:02

Cool

thejonymyster

... no sandbox?

graffe

It's a very simple question

Argh! Downvote

thejonymyster

thats why sandbox :P

graffe

That doesn't stop the dowmvotes sadly

thejonymyster

lol true im bein kinda silly

but yea its apretty striaghtforward challenge i get where youre coming from

graffe

19:12

Thanks

emanresu A

19:47

The set of sets of integers is countable, right?

thejonymyster

maps to the rationals doesnt it?

or well, thats redundant of me

pxeger

@emanresuA I think so

@thejonymyster given a set S, you can express it as a rational number of the form sum(S) / [index of S in the ordered list of sets having the same sum]

it's injective

emanresu A

I think it can be done because you can take the powerset of [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3 ...]

des54321

20:51

anyone here that knows JS and can help me figure out why something isnt working?

emanresu A

sure

ATaco

My guess is the computer gnomes are angry

des54321

so im working on my Chat-on-Chat-on-Chat thing that runs (or will run) on top of Radvylf's Chat-on-Chat thing, and I just wrote the function that encodes strings into arrays of five-bit "quints" of data

the code i have is perfectly good javascript and works fine (and even does exactly what i want) when i paste it into the browser console and test it

but if its not commented out in the userscript, the entire thing breaks

i need to emphasize that this function never gets called yet in the actual script

ATaco

Do you have a source code link?

des54321

hold on,,,, WHAT?? i just changed like a few spaces, updated the userscript, and its working now?

emanresu A

20:56

Hmm

Btw, hould I make this a popcon? Or what?

des54321

a single space between elements of an array was somehow responsible for breaking everything

ATaco

@emanresuA would this not be better as a cops and robbers meets answer chaining? Award points for successful cracks / safes

emanresu A

I guess?

des54321

okay my code is working again, but i dont know why

7

conclusion: the javascript gnomes were angry

Ginger

21:21

do any of yall happen to own a Wii?

thejonymyster

yea but whats up

Unrelated String

used to :/

still have a wii u though

Ginger

niec

@thejonymyster do you happen to have any extension not in this list?

Unrelated String

i don't have any extension that is on that list either :)

Ginger

|:

there, I disambiguated

thejonymyster

21:36

extensions as in stuff that specifically plugs into the controller, right?

Ginger

yup

thejonymyster

doubtful, but ill look as good practice

Ginger

thanks

thejonymyster

nope, just nunchucks, wii motion plusses, and a pro con

i also have that one remote with the wii motion plus already in it, but thats not an extension

Ginger

thanks anyway

thejonymyster

21:41

^)b best of luck

Ginger

have you installed homebrew?

thejonymyster

no i dont play a lot of video games

Ginger

ok

thejonymyster

never got around to it for that reason

Ginger

appreciate your help!

thejonymyster

21:42

are any other extensions known to/ thought to exist? interesting rabbithole i imagine

Ginger

plenty

I'm trying to document them

if anyone knows anyone who might have access to a rare extension please refer them to me

thejonymyster

noted :] ill dig through my friend's controllers next time im ober

and steal it.

Ginger

yay

New Posts

0

Q: Invert a Non-commutative Function

Intro Imagine a list of elements and their outcomes when some non-commutative function is applied to them. For example, we will use the elements Rock, Paper, and Scissors, the outcomes Win, Lose, and Tie, and an operator * such that X*Y = what would happen if you played X against Y As a list, you...

code-golf

thejonymyster

phallenge costed

emanresu A

21:55

Spimpressive oonerism

thejonymyster

almost a real word too, "phalange"

which... for some reason my spellcheck doesnt recognize the singular form of

Ginger

flange

Superior Simple

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