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00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

12:11 AM
damn taco is still here sheesh
also, I can't remember, but if I solved a challenge in minecraft, A is that allowed, and B how would you count bytes?
Depends on how you solve it
If it's command blocks, yes
Byte count is (iirc) total commands
not using command blocks though
In that case
A: Programming in Minecraft (Redstone) - how to measure program size?

Addison CrumpThere is now an MC Standard for bytecount. With the 1.10 update, they introduced a block called the "structure block", which creates a .nbt file representing a structure in its entirety that can be measured in bytes. As this is a Minecraft standard for converting builds into bytes, this should b...

1:02 AM
thats funny i was just reading that meta earlier
just 'cause
1:35 AM
@ATaco If you ever have to use PHP, instead, consider doing it manually, without computers, and all on paper. It's likely to be slightly easier
1 hour later…
2:37 AM
@WheatWizard I just love to hate on any language. You could write a language with C's speed, Rust's memory safety, Java's portability, Python's learnability, prettier and more expressive syntax than any language I've ever seen, and I'd still try to find its worst, darkest secret and remoreselessly and unrelentingly mock it :p
I personally find JS to be...not that bad, a mid-tier language, but from they way I'd talking about it you'd think it was humanity's worst sin. PHP is what allowed me to do some interesting projects early on, and taught me a lot, but I'll mock it all day. Python has a partiuclar set of goals and accomplishes them pretty well, but I'll gladly make fun of everything it doesn't do (and often doesn't want to do in the first place). No language is safe :p
@RadvylfPrograms well yeah, it won't be very golfy
Idea: A language whose printable ASCII is an ordinary praclang with clean syntax, but it actually uses an SBCS and the other 160 characters are golfing language operators
@RadvylfPrograms Especially not Vyxal lol
Speaking of which:
2:55 AM
gotta do an exam now, o/
Good luck!
3:49 AM

 Superior Simple

Superior Simple: A 2D programming language. See github.com/Sup...
4:33 AM
@RadvylfPrograms thats so dope actually i love it
"hey that code looks pretty clean. say whats that thingamado?"
"oh that filters the inverse of the lists' products"
"i see"
btw do people know about lua
i feel like i only hear of it in my tiny circles
i have no gauge of how popular it is or isnt
i feel like everyone knows about lua some way or another
it's pretty popular for what it's designed for
i.e. embedded scripting in what-the-fuck-ever feels like using it
i know there are at least a few card game simulators that run most of their logic on it
love2d is in lua, but then i also dont know how popular love2d is xd
i have never heard of love2d
4:39 AM
mari0 the mario portal game was made in it
ooh nice
i think i have heard of that
and basically everything else those devs made lol
not tetris 2, aka tetris with physics
but yea idk what else beyond that
its for makin games so its probably less popular than a regular general purpose lang
just by like, being more specific
i think the first i heard of lua was when i was playing tech modpacks in minecraft a bunch and some of them happened to include a mod that adds a computer block that just lets you manipulate a terminal and some robot entities with lua scripts
@emanresuA you missed a part on Reg, which is what got me to like Unicode in golfing languages
Because before that I was very much against confusing symbols
Idk how I could've found that
4:41 AM
Esolangs page
the name barely rings a bell
@lyxal In the history?
It's above the Keg+ section
@emanresuA on the Keg page
Oh I see now
I didn't scroll down that far :P
The website's gonna be kinda painful to change because of my shitty code - at this point I may as well rewrite it with some JS
4:53 AM
@RadvylfPrograms thats evil, i love it
bad/silly challenge idea: output a quine in any language that is longer than your program
that could be interesting or really boring
perhaps gsdfg
CMQ: Is generating random floats useful in golf?
% flax
probably best as a digraph nilad
definitely useful, not that useful
5:08 AM
ok then ? will now be ternary if
ternary if/else is definitely more useful than RNG
(context: i am changing flax quick glyphs)
All I can say is ouch
My feet are pain and tiredness is real
CMP: Which looks better for n-compose: ←↤⇤ ?
n being how many things you compose i assume?
5:15 AM
usage: FGH+3↤F(G(H(w)))+x
3 is the number of monads to compose
if that monad is not given, it is FGH+↤F(G(H(w))+x)
so 2 monads
i am not smart enough to handle dyad-nilad pairs as monads
@UnrelatedString ^^^^^ how is that?
CMC: print the link to your solution
5:30 AM
so the idea is to have something that can be used to group large chunks inline but also has a sensible default? hmm
@UnrelatedString are you taking about the compose builtin?
the defualt is to compose 2 monads
@PyGamer0 in that case you might want to be careful with an optional nilad argument to your compose(s), since they might eat something you wanted to use with a dyad
5:45 AM
2 hours later…
7:57 AM
8:13 AM
@lyxal "Samsung health"
doesn't look like it's very healthy though
@mathcat what? Is using the step counting app natively used by my watch so bad?
that too but, 13,000 steps sounds like a lot
It's 18266 now
I went walking with my cousins today, that's why it's so high
8:28 AM
Did you manage to cross Australia?
Do not underestimate just how much Australia there is
*opens google maps*
There is a lot of Australia
It's a big country
The walk was on a 3.5ishkm walking track, making it a 7km round trip
9:01 AM
5 hours ago, by Nobody


A 2D programming language that when decompressed has only 5 co...
1 hour later…
10:24 AM
@pxeger here's the rule that bans "brainfuck" in page titles: meta.stackexchange.com/a/238581
I saw that, but I thought an 8-year-old post about a 6-year-old "uneasy consensus" wasn't very conclusive, and given I don't think post #84 on the whole site is likely to hit HNQ any time soon, I didn't bother to revert the edit
I'm more surprised that you could revert the edit
maybe the ban on page titles doesn't affect edits to them?
fwiw, I'm never quite sure what to call the language in contexts where it might be seen by people who would be offended by the name
there's an interesting debate in the answers of the linked question
I think there is no such automated check any more
it's never clear in the process where the check would be
I don't want to actually publish a question entitled "Go fuck yourself" to test it though
10:30 AM
this has lead to occasional reoccuring damage at Wikipedia where someone convinces an admin that something destructive has been made impossible, the admin tests, and it turns out that they were lying
when deleting the Main Page actually was made impossible, the developers were very clear to say that the prevention was at the start of the process, before you filled out the reason, to try to discourage the same thing happening in the future
Well looking at codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/brainfuck, it seems like people are easily able to post questions with "brainfuck" in the title, at least
I think the word got banned from HNQ at some point
that probably reduces the importance of banning it from titles altogether
there were a few HNQ bans due to similar incidents (i.e. a question is obviously ontopic and harmless in context, but out of context can offend people or look unsuitable)
@lyxal I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. But I have a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. I will look for you, I will find you, and I will outgolf you.
I think the whole of Interpersonal SE was banned from HNQ for this reason
yeah, that was something of a debacle IIRC
10:35 AM
the same sort of thing happens on Reddit too occasionally – the post normally takes off, with everyone upvoting it to try to get it to the top of /r/all
for me the problem comes when writing programs which need to name the language – do we put uncensored profanity into the program itself? when talking to people I typically know who I'm talking and can abbreviate or not as appropriate, but a program (especially if it's meant seriously) can end up being read and used in other contexts in the future, and I have no real control over that
Arguably the best solution would be for everyone to grow up and deal with swear words, but that's never going to happen
especially because once a certain swear word loses its impact, new ones will appear to replace it when that impact is needed
"grow up" seems like the wrong verb here – it's more adults who get offended than children, who mostly just find it funny
using swear words is childish, getting offended by them is adultish
hmm, apparently the ban on "brainfuck" in titles was broken even as early as 2015: meta.stackexchange.com/q/238577
err, wrong page, I meant to link to a comment near the bottom of that page
but apparently I can't link to comments without JavaScript
Huh, that's a random thing for SE to do on the frontend rather than the backend
SE normally works fairly well with JavaScript off, but does have the occasional glaring issue
the most notable is that changing which page of answers you're looking at resets the sort order
so if you're looking at page 3 of "oldest" and move to the next page, you get page 4 of "votes"
maybe I should report that
That could probably be fixed with a userscript, if you accept running your own written JS
10:50 AM
it's weird that it needs fixing at all, though
I can somewhat more see how that would happen though
it's a slightly more complicated task to implement on the backend than on the frontend, since you'd need to keep track of the current user's sort order, possible separately across multiple tabs
the thing is, the sort order is in the URL
and it's still in the URL even after clicking onto the next page, it's included in the link
but, it isn't respected and the page sorts by votes anyway
11:09 AM
@ais523 It looks like what is happening is that the parameter answertab works to set the order, but the links to other pages change the parameter name to tab, which doesn't work.
good diagnosis, may I add that to my bug report?
bug posted
11:33 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Wheat WizardDetermine Uilta Pitch Accent Uilta is a minority tungusic language spoken in the far east of Russia. A neat thing about Uilta is that it has pitch accent which can be predicted by a computer program. In this challenge we are going to take Uilta a word and determine where the accent peak is. Let ...

Going to post this shortly.
11:46 AM
@ais523 why do you disable js?
@PyGamer0 JavaScript generally makes sites worse, all sorts of things popping up and fading in and out and the like – most functionality that's actually useful can be implemented without it
and usually is
12:01 PM
Q: Determine Uilta Pitch Accent

Wheat WizardUilta is a minority tungusic language spoken in the far east of Russia. A neat thing about Uilta is that it has pitch accent which can be predicted by a computer program. In this challenge we are going to take Uilta a word and determine where the accent peak is. Let me explain how this can be do...

12:24 PM
@ais523 Partially agreed - also, there are many things that can/should be done with builtin HTML instead of JS. For example, everyone tries to homebrew their own version of <details>.
Huh, add that to the list of tags I wish I knew about earlier
<marquee> is basically the only tag that matters anyway.
OTOH, one of JS's main advantages is its ability to dynamically generate content. A server can do that too, but JS is often simpler to use. For example, the History Of Vyxal website linked in the starboard is a huge kludge of inline CSS and absolute positioning. I could rewrite it with JS and make the code a lot smaller, more readable, and more extendable. I haven't yet because I'm lazy
Soon we'll have out-of-the-box support for WASM workers
And then, we'll be able to write our web-code in something less aweful
@emanresuA isn't that the sort of thing that would ideally use a static site generator (i.e. a program that generates an HTML file as output, but that you only run once)?
@ais523 I think they mean more like... a Blog post is "Dynamic Content".
12:29 PM

 Superior Simple

Superior Simple: A 2D programming language. See github.com/Sup...
@ais523 True, good point
Turn data into a webpage and serve
Shouldn't always want to save it as an entire webpage.
@ais523 it seems like all JavaScript does is make ads
I never really understood why most blogs are dynamic – mine (which hasn't been recently updated) is static-site-generated
o/ gotta go
Someone check this out help me thanks
12:30 PM
The idea is for an easier workflow.

 Superior Simple

Superior Simple: A 2D programming language. See github.com/Sup...
@Nobody Please stop
@ATaco ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At this point, many languages are multitargeted and can be used for websites. I don't think JS is that bad unless you go looking for the weird bits, and you're going to have to use it anyway as a wrapper for whatever you've compiled.
I don't like using Javascript for various reasons. It's not really a bad language, as much as I like to make fun of it.
12:33 PM
Understandable, but I think it's here to stay.
the first version of JavaScript was, IIRC, the result of giving a skilled and talented language designer an impossibly short deadline and forcing them to make a language
this explains things like function scope for variables (proper lexical scope is obviously better, but would have taken longer to implement)
Hm, I hadn't heard that story before
Me neither
I still can't wrap my head around the difference between let and var.
let is better.
Although that's maybe just my programming style, which completely avoids var and function
12:35 PM
Now that I think about it, it's not Javascript I don't like, but Web Development
@ATaco what do you think var a = 4; { var a = 5; document.write(a); } document.write(a) prints?
I can tell you what it should print.
Let me guess 4 4
But I believe it does print 5 5
correct; let prints 5 4
12:36 PM
I mean5 5
that's the difference
@ais523 I honestly don't get why blocks on their own are a thing - they just add ambiguity for object syntax.
@ais523 Doesn't document.write override all page content?
@emanresuA most likely because the if statement is copied from C
I like blocks on their own. Lets me seperate chunks of code with locals.
@emanresuA it appends at the point of the <script> tag
12:37 PM
Probably better to seperate them into functions
Bye for now
@ais523 Never mind :P
I should sleep, o/
it isn't common nowadays to use <script> as an element in the document body, but it used to be very common in the early days of JavaScript
and I was doing the tests by literally writing data:text/html,<html><body><script> into a web browser URL bar
(followed by the desired script)
this has some weird side-effects, like "the browser can't parse the rest of the page beyond the <script> tag until the script has finished running, in case it writes unbalanced tags to the page"
(this was once used in a code-golf answer to intentionally hang the browser's parser)
HTML+JS+CSS is a fantastical Bodge
And our idea was to use that to make Desktop apps for some reason
I think I understand the reason: all GUI toolkits are terrible, and attempting to use HTML+JS+CSS as a GUI toolkit is actually less terrible than the alternatives (whilst still being terrible)
12:41 PM
Definitely true. HTML+CSS(+-JS) is probably the easiest toolkit for making UI's I've used.
and one major part of the terribleness is often "things break a few years later and you have to learn an entire new toolkit", and most people don't trust anything cross-platform other than HTML+CSS+JS to be here to stay
The worst is definitely Garry's Mod Lua's Derma.
1:01 PM
@ais523 I think the android developer toolkit is a bit less terrible than H+C±JS, but it might be just because I'm not good at CSS.
@ATaco it's a nice idea for a feature, but I don't think I've every actually used it
@mathcat working only on a small subset of OSes is an inherent problem for libraries – it limits where you'll be able to port your application in future, and means that you're stuck if the OS ever becomes inappropriate (which can happen for reasons outside your control sometimes)
yeah true
Looks like I'm gonna learn CSS now
when I was younger I frequently used nonportable programming languages, but my code ended up breaking a few years later far too often
at one point I even used Excel to create GUIs (I didn't have many programming languages available at the time and was familiar with Excel…); you'd expect me to regret that when I moved to a compute without it, but instead I discovered that my programs broke in a later version of Excel – versions of Excel that could run them are very rare nowadays
maybe this is why I ended up getting into esolangs – I learned programming with an absolutely terrible set of languages to learn it on
@ais523 Microsoft be like:
1:13 PM
Nov 4, 2021 at 17:52, by pxeger
@hyper-neutrino I started programming using Visual Basic in Excel, and wow, those scars certainly still haunt my dreams
but /srs that's really dumb if you upgrade and all your programs don't work
to some extent, this depends on whether the thing you're programming in was intended as a programming language or not
@cairdcoinheringaahing Go also has this (optionally)
1:50 PM
@graffe I'm not sure whether that problem (choosing prefixes with a given total length from a given set of lists, maximising the sum) has a name, but it's NP-complete, because you can encode the subset sum problem in it (encode a number n as n-1 zeroes followed by n), so there isn't an efficient algorithm unless P=NP
@ais523 I don't think that's right, because that construction creates a number of values exponential in the number of bits in n.
oh, I see
I frequently get confused with NP-complete problems that use numbers
because it's unclear what function of the input we're measuring the complexity with respect to
or, hmm, I guess I'll just look it up
OK, best known subset sum is algorithm is exponential in the total number of bits of the numbers in the set, meaning that subset sum is polynomial in terms of the size of the actual numbers
this makes it very likely that the problem can be solved in polynomial time using dynamic programming
and some further research implies that there's a distinction between "weakly NP-complete" (can be solved polynomially in the value, rather than size, of the inputs), and "strongly NP-complete" (unless P=NP, can't be solved polynomially even in the value of the inputs)
1 hour later…
3:10 PM
Q: Minimum Alteration String

Phanendra PhaniGiven a set of N words, starting word and ending word, the words can be changed to obtain any one of the words in the given list of words by altering exactly one character and the target is to obtain the ending word with the minimum number of alterations starting with the starting word. Print the...

@m90 do you think it can be solved in poly time?
@ais523 I hope so! But how?
dynamic programming is basically a recursive brute-force algorithm combined with very heavy memoization
you could probably do something like working out, for each n from 1 to 100, the optimal score using n coins in the first half, and separately in the second half
and recursing
actually, isn't that just a linear-time algorithm? for each aligned power-of-2-sized subset, work out the optimal score for each n, starting from the smallest and working towards the largest
or no, it's n log n, but still pretty fast
3:38 PM
I am not sure that works does it?
Could you write it out with a little more detail?
Or even better, code it :)
3:57 PM
@thejonymyster Since it's used in Roblox, some other games, some tools for programmers, etc., probably a lot of people. I wouldn't expect it to overlap very well with the people who know JS/Python though, since it's not really used as a general-purpose language as far as I know.
Lua is explicitly designed for use embedded in larger applications
there are several languages like that, though, and only Lua really caught on
It doesn't really have a proper standard library, so it's not very usable outside that
you hardly ever see Tcl or Guile used nowadays, for example
@ais523 Lua has the advantage of being first-to-market (I wrote this before you mentioned Tcl and Guile, so I'm not sure if it's actually true) and thus benefits from the network effect
It's also very fast (thanks to LuaJIT)
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