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3 hours later…
3:35 AM
@pxeger welp you were right... i lost 70 rep
back under 3k :(
well im like 30 rep from 3k, shouldnt be too bad
3:51 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Matthew JensenUnique Colour Sequence I'm making a game that can have any number of players. The trouble is that each player needs a colour, and I am not artistic enough to come up with new colourful colours for each player. I've devised formula for a never-ending sequence of unique numbers between 0 and 1 that...

4:09 AM
@lyxal so if the person upvotes the posts again, will the votes get removed again?? if so, will that bring suspicion to my account for rep manipulation (becuz i dont have a 2nd acct, dont want to be accused of smth i didnt do) ??????
yo wait what the
my rep is back
was that just a glitch on my end or what
i swear i saw smth like "voting corrected"
-70 rep
i load up my profile again and its not there anymore, no evidence that my rep ever changed
oh wait actually i see it now
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Isaac ReefmanSplit integer into two integers within valid bounds Write a MS SQL Server Stored Procedure (or Function) that takes 3 integer parameters: MaxPortion MinPortion Total and outputs two random integers whose sum is equal to Total. Both output integers should be no higher than MaxPortion and no lower...

ok duuuuuuuuude wtffff, apparently someone just mass upvoted my stuff again?? this is so strange
Strange indeed
Very weird.
4:17 AM
do i report this to the mods or what
or i just do nothing
Dec 19, 2021 at 12:32, by lyxal
people mention their rep count and magically it increases
Dec 19, 2021 at 12:32, by lyxal
it's okay
Dec 19, 2021 at 12:32, by lyxal
these things happen sometimes
hmmm... i see
then in that case ill take advantage of the situation and spam this chat with mentions about my rep :P /s
4:49 AM
I'll do it for you. It was me
as implied by my somewhat subtle hints
gasp, shock
I know right
how unthinkable
how could I, someone who totally hasn't publicly admitted to doing this in the past, do such a thing?
@JoKing also, that's not supposed to be public knowledge
hyper made the same mistake once in Charcoal
oops i guess. it's not as much info as you would expect actually
uuuuuuhhhh ill just pretend i didnt see that if its not supposed to be public knowledge lol
apparently rule 1 of being a mod is not talking about being a mod
4:59 AM
It's not technically public knowledge, but I think it's been stated a few times on MSE.
@JoKing Btw, if you want to better redact that comment so that ROs can't see it (since they aren't mods), you can edit it, delete it, and then select "redact edit history". That would purge it presumably for anyone who doesn't have DB access.
wait so will the votes get removed again or no
@AidenChow They'll probably get reverted again.
hopefully no so i can keep at 3k rep lol
It'll be automatic.
@forest oh, rip
5:04 AM
not if I do a little clever voting
And in fact, even moderators aren't allowed to know how the vote correction works...
Because apparently we can't be trusted for that lol
There's this stupid hierarchy of staff > mods > users.
@forest uuh stupid in what way?
@AidenChow Because it's all security through obscurity.
@forest hmm yes trust mods with keeping site communities running but don't tell them the inner workings of said communities
truly excellent /s
And the fact that as a mod I can't tell you how mod tools work is also stupid, because it's really quite basic. Nothing in our tooling surprises me at all, and knowledge of how it works wouldn't help trolls or spammers much.
5:08 AM
I suppose the less ammunition spammers have the better
Like, it's obvious and well-known that as a mod, I can see people's IP (that's not secret), but whether or not I have the capability of doing the opposite (searching for users based on IP) is a secret.
well it doesnt make sense for mod to not know, but if users knew how the vote correction works, wouldnt it be prone to exploitation or no?
@AidenChow Not if the algorithm is any good.
It's already obvious how to bypass it. Just vote slowly and vote for other people in between votes. Knowing how the algorithm works is pointless since it's already obvious that such a technique works, regardless of the algorithm internals.
And I know that not because of any privileged or confidential information, but because it's obvious.
since otherwise you'd be blocked for completely normal voting behavior sometimes
Yeah exactly. I don't know the details, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to bypass them.
So all disclosing the details of the algorithm could do is allow people to suggest improvements.
5:14 AM
i hadn't really explored the mod info tools fully before this, some of it is quite interesting (in an abstract way)
@JoKing I just ask daily about how mod tools work in the TL.
And sometimes I even get a reply!
wats tl
some mod thing i presume right
Teachers Lounge
@AidenChow Sooper Sekrit moderator-only chat room.
mod-only chat room
something us mere mortals can only dream of
5:16 AM
It's basically just gossip and occasionally mods asking other mods for advice.
But honestly, it's not that interesting.
I can imagine
it is a teacher's lounger after all
the most y'all'd do there is stand around drinking coffee complaining about bad students :p
The most interesting thing I found in it was some mods gossiping about their opinions of me lmfao
But that's probably because I've been a pain in their side for a while.
pre or post moderacy?
Pre, of course.
i rarely visit, and i don't think i'm infamous enough to get gossip about me lol
5:19 AM
I just push buttons, I guess. Part of my personality.
If I see a button, I push it.
Oh! Food's done! Gotta go.
only time i was even mentioned pre-moderacy was that one time someone nuked my account for being underage when i was around 15 years old
(before the whole gdpr thing, and I'm in NA anyway)
and i was mentioned cuz i appealed it cuz someone misinterpreted one of my chat messages and i was not in fact underage at the time :P
and look at you now, ready for nuclear retaliation
acct being underage? whats the required age for an acct
(dont nuke my acct plz)
i think in the US it's 13, so you're fine
5:34 AM
yeah it's 13
whew i was worried for a sec
made my acct before i was 13 tho 0_0
same (well my old account), and it's because i mentioned that that someone misinterpreted me and deleted my account 💀
but dw i understand what you mean so you're safe lol
@forest I think one can reasonably confidently infer what was said here
6:15 AM
@pxeger How did it go with licensing for Dyalog on ATO?
7:13 AM
@Adám Your colleague Karen sent me a licence, which is great, but for the time being I think I'll stick to using the official Docker image (to keep installation simple)
There's no reason I haven't put Dyalog on prod ATO other than "I forgot", so I'm doing it now
@pxeger Yay, can't wait. Oh, I need to ask if we can have explicit permission to use the API.
We are of course happy to pay you, like we did Dennis.
@Adám Probably; what do you want it for?
problems.tryapl.org currently uses TIO to check submissions. I'd like to switch to ATO.
Ah, ok
Yeah, that's ok, you have my permission
It's all client-side, right?
@pxeger The license isn't tied to any particular executable (they are all the same). If you want, you can let the interpreter know about your license although since you're using #! mode, I don't thing it makes any detectable difference at all.
7:24 AM
@Adám The problem is that ATO installation requires everything to be in a Docker image, and I'm not sure if I'm allowed to publish my own Docker image with a copy of Dyalog APL in it
@pxeger Yes, we serve static content from GitHub pages, and then the client communicates with TIO for evaluation.
@pxeger so I'd have to add an extra script to handle downloading Dyalog APL separately
@pxeger Firstly, I think that's OK, but secondly, I'm pretty sure you can inject DYALOG_SERIAL=123456 into the image when it starts.
You can literally just add that as a command line param to the dyalog executable
But again, the only difference in behaviour would be that if someone writes APL code that asks the interpreter for its license number, it'd return that value instead of an empty string.
Given it's in a sandbox with no internet access, I don't expect it to network-validate my licence lol
Oh, Dyalog NEVER dials home.
Dennis didn't inject his number, so TIO reports an empty string, and that's perfectly fine.
Anyway, I'm probably just confusing you. All I meant to say is that the "but" in your "but for the time being" is misguided. You're doing perfectly fine by having a license and using the Docker image. You cannot download an interpreter that is tied to your number in any way. All interpreters are identical. If I used your number for my interpreter, it'd eat it and claim it was registered correctly.
7:32 AM
I'm just concerned about redistributing copies of the interpreter, that's all
Don't worry. The full commercial interpreter is freely downloadable without registration and isn't marked in any way that makes it possible for us to distinguish what one person downloaded from what another person downloaded.
@pxeger Is it just me or is ATO down?
Sometimes, I get no connection, others I get an infinitely "Loading..." on the language list.
@Adám Yes, I'm updating it
So every time you add a language, you incur down time‽
7:43 AM
Every time I add a language, there's about 5 seconds of down time
But I'm reinstalling fully this time, which I like to do every now and then
to make sure the actual installation doesn't drift too far from how the installation should be
tbh, I probably didn't need to do that this time
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

KeizerHarmDraw the Swedish coat of arms Or rather, assemble it. A coat of arms is specified not my its physical representation on Wikipedia or any other source, but by its blazon: a formal, pseudo-French listing of its components and their position. I'll explain the blazon, and it is your job to draw it o...

8:52 AM
Q: Sequence of integers not the sum of powers of earlier terms

ATOStarting with 1, output the sequence of integers which cannot be represented as the sum of powers of earlier terms. Each previous term can be used at most once, and the exponents must be non-negative integers. This sequence starts: 1, 2, 6, 12, 25, 85, 194, 590, 1695, 4879, 19077, 83994, 167988 ...

@NewPosts I just reviewed this on First Questions as "Looks OK", but maybe I shouldn't have, given it's my own question
What will the ATO account do eventually?
I'm planning to make it a chat bot which can run code on ATO
and probably do other things related to ATO
So like the Vyxal bot?
8:58 AM
I see a lot of potential in ATO, it could become a sort of code-sharing service
You could embed ATO widgets into a website
although I understand that might be hard to make
Part of me wants to keep ATO limited in reach, like "avoid success at all costs"
because if it gets too popular it might be too much effort to maintain
"Avoid success at all costs" this is the first time I've ever heard someone say something along those lines
it is (or was) the motto of Haskell
wait really?
I guess it didn't work
They just mean they want it to stay usable as a research language, and not have too many people trying to use it practically which could hinder development of interesting theory
@pxeger Apparently, this should be clarified to "avoid {success at all costs}", not "{avoid success} at all costs"
9:02 AM
What is "success at all costs"?
The phrase is "avoid (something) at all costs". You can't have something at all costs.
unless i'm missing something which I probably am
"X at all costs" just means "forget anything else, we're only going to pursue X"
hmm never heard that one before, let me look it up
it could be better phrased as "avoid chasing success at all costs"
Okay it is indeed a construction (found it online), so TIL
9:23 AM
@pxeger A bit inconsistent:
Shouldn't it be "APL (Dyalog APL)"?
Or alternatively:
APL (dzaima)
APL (Dyalog)
Is it allowed to ask for help with code golf answers here?
like determining whether an answer works or not
Yes. That's pretty much the most on-topic thing, I'd think.
okay, then, here goes.
answer to what question?
Here is a link to my potential answer to the latest challenge:
there is an upper limit in the range, will this cause the answer to stop working at high numbers?
probably but who knows I could set some crazy high limit with it still working
9:30 AM
still trying to understand what is going on in the code first, give me a sec :P
wait actually gotta go for now, bye I may or may not come back here in a while
hmmm yeah idk about putting some random number there like 10
like at one point there has to be a number that can only be represented as the sum of powers of 11 right
but then it wont be in the list
maybe another strategy is for some number n, check if it can be made using sums of powers (from 1 to n) of terms already in the list. like if n is 2, then [0,1] is already in the list, so it would check 0^1, 0^2, 1^1, 1^2, 0^1+1^1, 0^1+1^2, 0^2+1^1, 0^2+1^2 and see if any are equal to 2
Hi again
It would take a huge amount of time to do that ^^
@ophact its literally code golf, no one cares :D
but then it would be the same as the approach of the existing answer
but wait...
let me try something
9:44 AM
@ophact it would? i cant even make sense of it
well i gtg, gl
10:05 AM
@Adám I'll go with this I think
FYI, TIO goes with a hybrid:
APL (Dyalog Classic)
APL (Dyalog Extended)
APL (Dyalog Unicode)
APL (dzaima/APL)
APL (ngn/apl)
By chopping "APL", you lose info on the exact spelling (note the lowercase "apl" in "ngn/apl") and there's also "GNU APL" without a slash.
2 hours later…
11:39 AM
Yay 2500 rep! I can finally... create tag synonyms.
the most spectacular action possible
12:05 PM
can any C++ coder tell me what [&] means in "auto smart_lce = [&]( int l , int r , int known_lce ) {" please
haey? Is that hi?
I have challenged myself to never send the same greeting message twice
idea: a Crazy Eights KOTH
eh? eh?
12:15 PM
@graffe That's the "capture" part of a lambda expression: it gives the body access to all local automatic variables by reference.
12:34 PM
@pxeger Would it be an idea to have individual languages disable ligatures even if the current user has ligatures enabled?
12:47 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

KomaliConvert Alpha-3 to Alpha-2 I've been developing some programs involving me fetching a vector from a url using Alpha-2 country codes (such as GET /jp.svg for Japan). Except, oh no! All the country data on my computer uses Alpha-3! That just won't do...The task is simple: Take an Alpha-3 country co...

First sandbox post
I'm a geography nerd....
1:11 PM
So how will I know if it's approved? Will it be automatically moved or...
it's not automatically moved
it's reccomended you leave it there for a week
sets reminder on phone
@Adám Which languages are you thinking of specifically?
Certainly the APLs; APL, J, BQN
I'm not too familiar with which characters are affected.
I have contributed to Wikipedia!
1:16 PM
Ligatures are probably detrimental to most esolangs.
I think it's probably too opinionated for ATO to forcibly override
Uh, if so, then the default should be off, because ligatures seriously mess up code when not fitting the language.
Just as an example: In APL +a(0<-)b is meaningful, but with ligatures, it'll render as a(0⟵)b which is nonsense.
1:44 PM
Does ATO use a font that has ligatures like <-? I wasn't aware very many did.
I thought it did text substitution
@RadvylfPrograms yes, Fira Code
That seems like a rather poor choice of fonts
Don't only a small minority of programmers like ligature fonts?
I find them hideous
And Adám's concerns are very reasonable. Lots of languages don't use things like || or -> or == as a single operator
1:48 PM
And what if I'm doing code golf and I want x<-3 in something like python or js?
and what about makina, which extensively uses >v<^?
Yeah, for normal code you've got more readable stuff like x < -3, but ATO's used by code golfers
Idea: A Wikipedia bot that automatically creates skeletons of episode articles for TV series
@m90 thank you. Too much for a C refugee :)
CMQ: Is esolangs.org a reliable source for Wikipedia?
2:01 PM
I doubt it
thought so
"Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, __most wikis__ and other collaboratively created websites."
@m90 thanks
@Ginger What are you doing with wikipedia and esolangs though?
I'd love to update the Piet section of the Esoteric Programming Languages article but I'm having some issues finding reliable sources
> The behaviour of colours other than the 20 specified is left to the compiler or interpreter.[citation needed]
Where do I find a citation for that?
2:04 PM
Maybe the piet website?
site doesn't say anything about that
I checked
perhaps we could contact David Morgan-Mar and ask him?
That would be WP:OR
I think esolangs is a reasonably source
@Ginger ...so the behavior of other colors is left to the compiler or interpreter :p
@Ginger I think it does? "Additional colours (such as orange, brown) may be used, though their effect is implementation-dependent." under the section Colours.
2:05 PM
h m m m m
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Wheat WizardIn need of title. Note: In the final challenge \$N\$ will be a concrete number (I am thinking about 100), but while this is in the sandbox it is subject to change so I have left it as \$N\$. Currently \$N=127\$ This challenge is based off of a list of \$N\$ Castilian Spanish words and the words...

Posting this today.
@pxeger I don't think so
lemme look more closely at that site
What m90 quoted seems to pretty clearly state that most wikis aren't allowed and I don't think esolangs is different from most others in any way
2:07 PM
problem: that site is really the only source for piet info
it'd be nice if there were other sources
@Ginger No it is not. Esolangs.org is user generated content which makes it not a RS per wikipedia.
@Ginger Why?
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. This guideline discusses the reliability of various types of sources. The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations. The verifiability policy is strictly applied to all material...
more data of course
2:08 PM
Well if that "data"'s written by some internet rando it's not reliable enough
the language was written by some internet rando
With the possible exception of widespread piet compilers' README and stuff
@Ginger Sure, but internet randos are nonfungible
it seems to me that most of those citation neededs are for data from the piet site
The piet site would be considered a primary source.
what do?
2:11 PM
Primary sources are ok, but they want secondary sources as well
wait no it's fine
I mean, this isn't researching a natural phemomenon, it's something created entirely by a person. Secondary sources can only dilute the accuracy.
Unless it's something like, a research paper comparing piet compilers, which I doubt exists lol
not yet
guess I'll just slap a template on it and call it a day
now, maybe a better one to look at would be Binary Lambda Calculus
the guy who made it published some papers on it
oh wait, it had an article
what about the code golf article?
I know a lot about code golf
@Ginger I'd offer to do it in my final year at uni but my course doesn't have research papers as the major project for honours
what I'd really like is a paper on code golf
2:20 PM
And even then,that's 2 years away
that way I could add some citations to its WP article
@Ginger Are you just editing Wikipedia to edit Wikipedia? I'd only do that if you know, for 100% sure, that what you're writing there is correct and can be backed up by research. Wikipedia isn't just some toy people can use to show off their hobbies.
I know that. I've made some... mistakes while editing Wikipedia in the past and am determined to put things right.
What I'm doing is copyediting
@RadvylfPrograms Arguably programming languages are owned by the communities that use them. If every major implementation diverges from the creator's intent in some way, well that's arguably what the language is. Secondary sources help to collate and confirm that aspects of what the creator said are indeed a part of the language.
But also secondary sources help establish the notability of a claim. If a claim is made by a primary source but no secondary source repeats it then it's probably not worthwhile for that claim to be reproduced in a tertiary sources (e.g. wikipedia).
hey I came up with a new file format
it's kinda like zip but with no compression
2:35 PM
so tar?
I have no idea what you'd use it for
but I've written some Python to read from and write to it
@Ginger Same thing you use tar for, turning a directory of stuff into a single file so you can download it all at once, either for backup or installing-things purposes
^ that's what I had in mind when I made it
But .tar files are almost always zipped afterward. .tar.gz and .tar.bz2 are way more common than plain .tars
the tar system has the advantage (over zip) of letting you use whatever compression you like, without tar itself (necessarily) needing to know how to handle it
2:43 PM
So you're saying...Jelly compressed tarballs?
IIRC Jelly compression can't handle all possible byte values
yeah yeah :p
CMQ how can I make a random connected bipartite graph with a given size of maximum matching?
3:02 PM
just map the tar file onto the range that jelly can compress first :P
i'm not sure how the effectiveness would compare tbh - AFAIK bzip2 is good when there are a lot of repeated substrings and jelly compression is mostly good when the text resembles english because of its dictionary so i suppose it might have to depend on what the files contain
Not really sure why things like that keep getting starred, I cleared another three earlier this morning
Like, funny jokes are one thing, even if a bit off-topic, but comments like "h m m m m" are useless enough even without cluttering up the starboard
No, they're showing as timeouts for me so I'm spamming "try again" when apparently they aren't timing out after all
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