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00:00
@RadvylfPrograms huh i always get a really low score when i try to draw smaller circles
@AidenChow That depends on who are available to teach the languages. Even the higher-scoring one can be skipped if no one is willing to teach it on the given day.
oh alr, that makes sense
is anyone up to teach piet then ?
apparently my freehand circles are so bad that drawing squares is giving me a higher score than trying to draw circles
Probably because you draw the squares smaller
looks like i can inflate my score by drawing concentric circles and/or just a shitty spiral
i am getting addicted to semantle instead of codegolf
I solved Semantle #60 in 13 guesses. My first guess had a similarity of 2.17. My first word in the top 1000 was at guess #8. My penultimate guess had a similarity of 47.35 (979/1000). semantle.novalis.org
help me
00:10
whoa
nice
what, how
i have 919 rn
im running out of synonyms to guess :|
it took me way too long to get it from 998 and 999
lmaoooo i just got 999
I solved Semantle #60 in 23 guesses. My first guess had a similarity of 5.67. My first word in the top 1000 was at guess #7. My penultimate guess had a similarity of 75.15 (999/1000). semantle.novalis.org
pog
we should have a king of hill that let bots do semantle lol
nice idea, but how would that work?
00:13
nvm every bot will brute force it and guess it on 2nd try
it wouldn't be too hard to implement a driver that does the same calculations from word2vec but yeah it would be hard to make it an interesting koth
it will either be too complicated for most people to participate or everyone literally do random guess
implement semantle with word and vector given as input is better
anyone smart at math know how to go about integrating cos(tan x) dx ? my friend give me this problem as a joke, but becuz i am noob at calculus, idk how to solve it.
i try does u=tan x, but i get du=sex^2x dx, doesnt seem to help ?
Integrating 99.99% of the functions you can write down is actually a joke (meaning even the mathematicians or Mathematica cannot do that)
cool
00:28
@AidenChow I can kind of rehash the basics of Piet as presented on Esolangs, but unless someone around here knows it better, I think the Piet LYAL is gonna be more like all of us trying to learn it together.
Ci and Si are just hiding some "standard" unsolvable integrals under the hood
@DLosc if no one teach it then we should skip it right? or is that not how it works
@Bubbler lol, now i can see why i couldnt solve it
@AidenChow Not necessarily. For example, when we did Quipu for the first LYAL, none of us knew it. I nominated it because I wanted to learn it, and a few of us did successfully learn it.
Even if no one's teaching, it's still easier to learn in a group so you can bounce questions off each other.
if u know that ur output is going to be a 2d list of positive integers, can u instead return a flattened 1d list of the 2d list, with each sublist separated by a 0?
@DLosc oh alr, that makes sense
If we do Piet, we probably should start by covering how to create and edit images that can be run by Piet interpreter
00:41
i found a good introductory website to piet: dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
(Specifically, that's the official website from the language's creator)
2
@AidenChow I don't think it's covered by default I/O posts yet
So it is invalid unless you post a new default I/O and it gets upvotes
@Bubbler One way to do it is with a utility I wrote that takes an ASCII encoding of a Piet program and outputs an image file. Dunno how user-friendly it is, but it's what I would use to make a Piet program. I think there used to be an online IDE of sorts that's 404'd now. :(
Or you can of course put the pixels in by hand in your favorite image editor.
(So, we're doing Piet?)
@DLosc probably? i think so
@DLosc do i need to install any external modules for ur utility?
Actually writing PPM looks reasonable, like this, though it means you need to write a bunch of 255 and 192 and 0
00:53
@Bubbler what is ppm? how do i create image with it
@AidenChow Yes, it requires Pillow. (I should probably mention that in the readme, shouldn't I.)
@AidenChow It is just a plain text format with a spec here
Welcome to the sixteenth Learn You A Lang for Great Good! Today, we'll be learning Piet, a classic esoteric language in which the source code is images meant to look like abstract art. During the event, feel free to post CMCs to practice Piet (PMCs), ask questions about the language, and so on.
9
wassup guys
01:05
@DialFrost hey hey welcome back!
uh is my rep supposed to be 1
someone haking me
not surprised tbh this happened to be in other websites
oh hi @DialFrost !
@DialFrost yeah idk, thats a bit strange
im more active on chess exchange lol
:D
looks abit sus person with 1 rep, but with 1 gold
might be something to do with how recently your suspension ended
maybe it got carried over from ur suspension, and ur rep count didnt properly update yet?
01:08
since i think you also displayed as 1 rep during it
^^
after 1 week, i have officially ran out of ideas for challenges
@allxy not if you manually enter https:// before it
i've been on code-golf exchange for nearly 100 days yay
also yes reputation takes a bit to update after suspension ends because... SE things
01:18
not consecutively sadly
@hyper-neutrino lol okey hyper thx
@hyper-neutrino what
That is cursed
not really
i run many webservers from different ports on the same IP
they're on two domains, hyper-neutrino.xyz and shenhemains.com
i configured the latter with cloudflare's HSTS so if you don't use https i think cloudflare proxies you to the latter using a secure connection
i don't really know how to fix this, like i could set up a cert myself but i don't know how
and i don't want to pay extra for a second server or a server that allows me to have multiple IPs
@hyper-neutrino i read that as weebservers and was very confused
I need sleep
01:22
Here's a cobbled-together TIO that turns ASCII-encoded Piet into a PNG and pipes that into the npiet interpreter:
https://tio.run/##rVltc9u4Ef7OX4HSM2cqlmnJufO0Hisdx1YcTx3bY@eamboeDiRCEmwK5IGgX9q7/vV0FyApgFQkpak@JHzZXTz7vkuPaD77OqaKHB2R7eHVh23yjtB8zPluxpkKs1dv6097RS73RlzsZa9qloq3nsfnWSoVyV/zLuFpl1A5zajMmTeR6Zxcn1@QkuJ8TqfM8z7@Oow@Hd/@jQxIb9Tv9733F8cn5q7X68Hdr8Pypu@d3QyHl@au3/NuhqeGCci@fDz/PKxFeBfnZx8/Xw5vb23RKO70@KaWDbeXVzefji8qifBAM1ZS4R4oouHVhSXGMHoxmxAmxmnMIsGeEy5YHmjjRGiczqFH4Gce6JfAvHgd5lnClWHqaEojKq5p7@7140kqCT4iXNjCjHT88Yl@v3iAvy3yuZCCqBkjKDUh4EO8YSImKcCm41klVaWEq5yAig0J7LeCP9GECeW8S
5
@DLosc what’s a good way to edit piet programs?
There isn't a good dedicated way AFAIK (I think there was an online IDE at one point but it 404'd).
You can always use your favorite image editor and save as PNG. You can write a PPM by hand (or programmatically if you like). You can use my ASCII-Piet converter, as linked above.
PMC: Print 0123456789
@hyper-neutrino Please pin
Thanks :)
If you have a Piet program as an image file, you can upload and run it here. Or, if you have a hexdump of the image file, you can run it on TIO.
@DLosc u play chess right
Sometimes
@DLosc Lol whoops, that should say sixteenth =P
@DLosc u dont go on chess exchange right
cuz i searched all of ur 28 accounts
01:35
@DLosc by the power of 11, it now does
@hyper-neutrino \o/
@DialFrost I haven't posted there, no. I read the Chess.SE HNQs sometimes.
power of 11? what that mean
@DLosc HnQ?
wahts that
@hyper-neutrino TIL 15 + 11 = 16
3
@DLosc oh nice
01:36
@DialFrost Hot Network Questions (the sidebar)
@hyper-neutrino what is the significance of 11?
@AidenChow It's a TNB slang term meaning "mod abuse," i.e. a moderator misusing their powers (in this case, somewhat ironic because the use of mod power is justified)
my rep is still 1 after 30mins
lmao
i still cant figure out the ppm thing, any care to explain how exactly to make an image with that
wat ppm
01:44
it's called 11 because mod abuse!!! → mod abuse!11 → 11
it's not often used for actual mod abuse it's just used for when a mod takes an action that a normal user could not do
in this case, a) editing a message after the 2 minute mark b) editing someone else's message
@hyper-neutrino lol ok thats interesting
@DialFrost some kind of image format suggested by bubbler, still trying to figure it out myself lmao
also i would use dlosc's code but at the same time i dont want to download some random module that im only going to use once
i found this: pixelartmaker.com
@DLosc Why is the color order shuffled around D:
maybe it can be used to make piet code, tho idk if piet interpreter accept png file
Finally got around to printing a single 2 in dlosc's tio:
ttle
  ee
@Bubbler Because it's in ascending order of RGB and I definitely didn't think about how it doesn't match the order Piet uses. =P That was probably a mistake.
01:54
nearly 1hr and counting
From an encoding perspective, it's "nice" because the low bit of each character corresponds to the blue channel of the associated color, the next bit to the green channel, and the next bit to the red channel. But I guess that's not super important for this application, and I should have made it less "clever" and more Piet-specific.
@DLosc ungolfed 83 bytes:
tlrtmedaskijfvrtmedaskijfvrtmedaskijfvrtm
                                       mm
okey
my rep is back
push 1, not, dup, print, and then push 1, add, dup, print * 9
@Bubbler Haha, nice
02:06
ugh i can export an image with pixelartmaker.com, but when i open the image it just looks wrong, and it didnt work when i input into interpreter :|
Also, since we're just doing CMCs and we don't have to worry about site rules, I propose that we count Piet programs in the traditional way, by codels (i.e., width * height of the image).
@AidenChow How so? Can you upload it here?
^ @DLosc
maybe i just code it wrong :P
using wrong color maybe
oh it look wrong becuz my photo viewer is blurring my photo for some reason, idk
routing in piet is hard :/
wait how u output in piet??? is it push
@AidenChow Yeah, probably the viewer will do that when you zoom in. The file itself isn't blurry.
02:09
im such a noob at this :\
@DLosc oh ok, something really wrong with my code then, lemme look into it
@AidenChow Piet is stack-based, so push is for pushing a value to the stack. There are Output num and Output char commands for output.
is "push" output??
not familiar with stack based langs
learn vyxal
@DLosc oh i see the "out" command now, its at the very bottom so i missed it :P
To print 1, you do "push 1, print"
02:12
ok thats probably why my code isnt working, im not actually outputting anything lmao
and the output command removes the number from the stack
@AidenChow You can think of a stack as a list of values that the program keeps track of. Push means add a value to the end of the list. Pop means take a value off the end of the list. The end of the list is called the top of the stack.
and, in Piet, the hardest part is halting
to halt the code, u just surround the last block with black right, or no
02:13
so basically after the final command, you need to make a region so that you can't move in any of the 4 directions
so confused lmao
trying to print 1 and its not even working smh
and encoding of each command is also somewhat complicated
Easier PMC: Output 1 forever
@DLosc 4 codels
tl
?e
@DLosc uh so i got this on accident i think
trying to print 1, got some really weird stack underflow error
have no fricking idea what it means
02:18
(light red) (red)
(white) (dark magenta)
^ can someone figure out whats wrong with this
why its giving me some weird error
@Bubbler I have 3
well actually if erroring is allowed for this i did it in 3 codels :P
(red) (dark red) (light magenta)
i have no idea why this works
just trying to print 1 :(
can someone explain how to stop piet code, im having hard time understanding it
@AidenChow I think that's essentially the same as my 3-codel solution (I'm using light red -> red -> dark magenta). Interesting that it shows warnings for you but doesn't for me (using TIO's npiet interpreter).
@DLosc "Any operations which cannot be performed (such as popping values when not enough are on the stack) are simply ignored, and processing continues with the next command."
i think the command "out" is trying to pop the stack when theres nothing in it??
but what i dont understand is why the code doesnt stop and goes on forever
@AidenChow ... Not really, lol. :P It has to do with how the DP moves. Basically, if it can't get out of the current block going in the current direction, it pivots 90 degrees clockwise and tries again. If none of the four directions work, the program halts.
@DLosc ah ok
Piet's IP moves from one region (contiguous cells of the same color) to the next. To determine the next region, it sees the furthest cells of the current region in that direction (rightmost if facing right, etc) and selects either the topmost or the bottommost cell after it.
@AidenChow In a 3-codel program, there's nowhere for the DP to get trapped. Once it reaches the rightmost codel, it tries to go right, can't, tries to go down, can't, tries to go left--and it can. So if the code is abc, execution goes a -> b, b -> c, c -> b, b -> a, a -> b, and so on forever.
02:29
 d d
cxxxa
 xx
cxx
 bb
hmmm ok that makes sense, now im confused as to how to "trap" the pointer
@Bubbler idk what that means lel
So if the current region is x, the next movements can be one of the cells marked a/b/c/d depending on current orientation
curios badge for me: 17/5
...
It is impossible to trap the pointer with a region of area 1 or 2.
The simplest trap is either L-shaped or I-shaped, both of area 3, which works like
can u give example of how the pointer can be trapped, i think i need a concrete example to understand it
02:32
   X
abcX
   X

abcX
  XX
is a, b, c, X any color?
Yes
a-b, b-c, c-X are executed and the IP halts at X
wait how is it trap there for the second one, will it keep turning to the right endlessly ?
Again, the IP moves from a region to a region, not from a cell to a cell
Once you move into X, you're on all three cells of X
@Bubbler region as in same colors touching?
02:36
Yes
okok mustve misunderstood that part when reading about DP and CC
but if its moving through regions not cells why does the shape of each region even matter, so confused
only the positioning of the region matters??? obviously thats wrong but i dont see how the shape matters rn
> As it executes the program, the interpreter traverses the colour blocks of the program under the following rules:

The interpreter finds the edge of the current colour block which is furthest in the direction of the DP. (This edge may be disjoint if the block is of a complex shape.)
The interpreter finds the codel of the current colour block on that edge which is furthest to the CC's direction of the DP's direction of travel. (Visualise this as standing on the program and walking in the direction of the DP; see table at right.)
Basically, the candidates for the next movement are decided by the shape of the current region
im a bit confused about what a codel is as well, is it just a pixel, or is it a region?
it says something about enlarging the program, did not really get that part either
oh, it's Piet today? awesome, i always wanted to learn this but never could be bothered to get past the source style
@AidenChow A codel is a unit of counting pixels
@AidenChow Where do you see that? Enlarging a program is just for convenience to humans "reading" the program
02:53
@Bubbler Npiet can work with enlarged versions--it autodetects codel size, which works for most programs.
"Codel" is just a way of saying that an enlarged version of a program, like this:
represents three pixels as far as Piet code is concerned, even though the image is technically 150 x 50 = 7,500 pixels.
oh ok, that makes sense
I'm not actually sure how to reliably input a program. Maybe I should scroll up.
close votes still on fire
ok after looking at the language showcase, how to trap the pointer makes a little more sense to me now after looking at some concrete example programs
@emanresuA ?
03:04
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DialFrostChimney Your task is to output a chimney of n size. The top of the chimney has n+2 _ characters, and the n spaces in between n | characters tall Testcases 1 -> ___ | | 2 -> ____ | | | | 3 -> _____ | | | | | | Meta If this is a dupe or too easy, i can add "smoke" to this challenge to...

The close vote review queue has been really active recently
Was about to say, yeah
Someone's been on a janitor-ing spree
Speaking of janitor-ing, I recently got Deputy on MSE mostly because my account it set to autoflag for Smokey
@lyxal wats smokey
03:09
@AidenChow unofficial SE spam detection and removal system
Really, how do I make a Piet program and run it on TIO?
@Nitrodon For TIO, you need a hexdump of a PNG file.
@Nitrodon idk, i use npiet instead
npiet?
Possibly a hexdump of other image formats (e.g. PPM) would also work.
03:11
and i use pixelartmaker.com to make the pixel images
(TIO is also running npiet, it just can't take an actual image file as code because of the way TIO is designed.)
what should i do about my meta question on geogebra: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/24516/…, it only has one answer +2/-1, should i just accept that answer?
Don't accept it
The Piet site says that impossible commands are ignored, but npiet is giving warnings instead.
If someone posts a far better answer twenty years from now, nobody can unaccept this one
No need to accept stuff on meta
03:17
"Any operations which cannot be performed (such as popping values when not enough are on the stack) are simply ignored, and processing continues with the next command."
Is showing a warning the same thing as ignoring the operation?
@Nitrodon i think so
apparently npiet shows the warnings but tio doesnt
@Nitrodon David Morgan-Mar, the creator, notes: "I have not written any 'authoritative' interpreter, and the different ones available sometimes interpret the specification slightly differently."
@AidenChow Which is weird to me, because, again, TIO is running npiet.
so how do I input stuff into TIO then?
As in, for a program that takes input?
as in a program
03:21
10 mins ago, by DLosc
@Nitrodon For TIO, you need a hexdump of a PNG file.
Apparently GIF also works--see the TIO Hello World program.
I don't actually know how to create a hexdump.
^
thats why im not even using tio :P
@Nitrodon xxd, which comes with vim
'xxd' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.
Oh, if you're on windows then idk
03:25
I was aware of the "install Linux and run xxd" option actually, but that seemed a bit too much effort.
There's also the slightly easier "install docker and run xxd" option I suppose lol
But still way overkill
I think windows has a hexdump utility built in
If you want, you can use my ASCII-Piet translator, which takes a plaintext format and spits out a PNG. It has an -x option that makes it output a hexdump instead. Requires Python 3 + Pillow. Can be run on TIO if you don't want to run it locally.
Powershell has Format-Hex
if you're on windows i'd recommend getting wsl set up for more than just xxd
wsl?
03:27
Windows Subsystem for Linux
And on the starboard is a TIO link where I piped ASCII-Piet into TIO's Piet interpreter so you can skip the hexdump step.
03:42
i'll miss LYALFGG today
i have exam
4
Q: Is "today is Presidents' Day" a proposition, propositional function, or neither?

blakedylanmusicI'm doing some practice problems for my Methods of Proof final, and one of the questions asks whether "Today is Presidents' Day" is a proposition, propositional function, or neither. In my class, we define a propositional function $P(n)$ as a proposition whose truth value depends on the value of ...

@DLosc why is the lettering scheme for ascii piet so weird, why not just make red r or something like that lol
For everyone using the ascii piet, use this table as a quick reference to choose the next color:
tvrsqu
lnjkim
dfbcae

.     +  /  <    dup   inC
push  -  %  +DP  roll  outN
pop   *  !  +CC  inN   outC
How to read: if your current color is j and you want the next command to be *, move twice down (wrapping) and once to the right to get s.
@AidenChow You can't reliably choose 18 different letters for 18 different colors, so ascii-value-based scheme makes sense
To whoever keeps VTCing questions as not fit for this site, I think needs details or clarity fits better.
03:57
Close dupe of a lot of challenges
so i change it?
You might need to stop writing ascii-art challenges altogether
I don't really think we need another "draw this shape but scaled up" sort of challenge, honestly
haha
deleted
@Bubbler reason?
^^^^^
They just start jumping the shark after a while
03:58
jumping the shark?
google it
@DialFrost People saying negative feelings about your challenges is the reason

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