The Nineteenth Byte

17:01

Hot take: monospace fonts aren't actually necessary for writing code, we just use them because a) historical reasons b) it "looks like code" and c) it's just slightly more useful than non-monospace font in some cases

pxeger

Monospace fonts are pretty much necessary in terminal emulators, so if you want to write or run code in a CLI you'll end up needing monospace

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Well for people who write code in a terminal-based editor yeah

But for stuff like Sublime, Notepad++, VS Code, Atom, etc.

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:16

Okay, just for fun, I've configured T2xt to use "Atkinson Hyperlegible" instead of monospace.

It's...not horrible

Although I wouldn't opt to use it over a monospace font

(T2xt is my now-heavily modded copy of Text)

user

@taRadvylfsriksushilani They're easier to render even outside of terminal emulators iirc

Like you can highlight just based off of the row and column of a character instead of knowing the widths of all the characters before it

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Not really

Because you still have to default to different width characters for some stuff

Unless you override how the OS does font rendering

(Which some terminal emulators do, but most text editors likely do not)

E.g., ⸻ is much wider than a single character in the text editor I use

user

Hmm, I feel like I've seen a setting in VS Code or something warn that setting the font to a non-monospace one would have an impact on performance

Ginger Industries

O(∩_∩)O

mathcat

O(U‾U)O

Ginger Industries

17:29

> QOTD:
> Even advanced technology cannot defy the laws of physics.
> - Ford car manual

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani in almost all terminal emulators, every character is still always a multiple of one cell

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Yes

mathcat

@GingerIndustries 1+ for at least having a physics degree

Ginger Industries

@pxeger well fractional characters would sure be interesting

pxeger

@GingerIndustries well look at the letters in the sentence I'm writing now. If you consider x to be one cell, all of them are fractional widths

Ginger Industries

17:31

idea: combining offset superscript and subscript numbers and slashes so you can build your own fractions

mathcat

nice

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries That's literally a thing already

There's a /-like character meant to be used for that

pxeger

23⁄45

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Okay, update: The crostini terminal handles too-wide characters in a very janky way

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani oh

pxeger

17:33

@pxeger the rendering engine is "supposed" to turn this (using U+2044 FRACTION SLASH) into a nicely formatted fraction

like anyone's ever gonna bother implementing that

Ginger Industries

unicode is cool

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Here's how crostini's terminal handles too-wide characters: drive.google.com/file/d/1cBxY77lRieFHRLGtAkroG_EpI5thMbhx/…

Ginger Industries

ಠ⸻ಠ

pxeger

Here's how Google Drive handles too-small videos:

mathcat

wait

pxeger

17:37

mathcat

ugh

I wanted to guess

@pxeger I would have said "Lol no to small"

Ginger Industries

Here's how Google Drive handles pausing small videos:

pxeger

Anyone want to guess which languages take up the most disk space on ATO?

mathcat

me

I'm good at guessing

Ginger Industries

me

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:39

@pxeger Does it have Haskell?

Ginger Industries

let'sa see

pxeger

ok then guess instead of just saying "me" lol

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

If so, that

Ginger Industries

some golflang prob

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani no, but I was holding off on adding Haskell for that reason lol

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:39

Haskell's 2 GB on RTO, Python is 70 MB :p

mathcat

@pxeger Scala 3

Ginger Industries

lemme see what langs it has

one sec

pxeger

this is on staging.ato.pxeger.com specifically

which has a fair few more languages

Ginger Industries

java?

pxeger

@mathcat nope, that's actually only about 40MB

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:40

Objective-C?

Ginger Industries

node.js?

some C variant?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Node's pretty big, yeah

170MB on RTO

mathcat

Don't ruin the fun saying "everything takes the same amount of space"

pxeger

Java is #2

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Fortran?

Ginger Industries

17:41

knew it

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Or possibly Ada?

mathcat

Pip

@DLosc is pip big?

pxeger

Nope, I added Ada and Fortran because they come for free with GCC

@mathcat no

it's basically just a few KB of Python files

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Imagine space usage being a concern, made by 2 TB of 10k rpm hard drives gang

pxeger

although it depends on Python, so arguably it's more like 60MB total

user

17:42

The whole GCC package?

mathcat

C++ because google says so

user

I assume it's Scala, Ruby, one of those mainstream languages

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani actually I want my users to have a good experience so I store everything on NVME SSDs /hj

Ginger Industries

Imagine using hard drives, made by USB 3.0 flash drive gang

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@pxeger RTO preloads popular containers for a 0s startup time :p

user

17:43

^ would be a nice feature to have for ATO

pxeger

@user actually, I just realised Ada is much bigger than I thought, about 150MB

@user the reason ATO has so much janky sandbox logic is precisely to avoid the overhead of creating a whole docker container

user

~~I'm going to~~ (was before you said Ada) guess Scala 3 takes up the most space because the docker image also seems to include sbt (which also increases startup time)

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@pxeger It's a fraction of a second lol

mathcat

@user my first guess!

user

@pxeger Oh, didn't realize that

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:45

Even for RTO's currently largest language, Node, it takes under half a second

user

@mathcat Oops, didn't read that far

Ginger Industries

well now I want to make one of these
except I ain't got server space

mathcat

@user no, I'm happy that I'm somewhat right

pxeger

it creates a bwrap container which only takes 0.004 seconds

@taRadvylfsriksushilani not at all IME

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

I get 560ms

pxeger

17:47

it's about 500-1000ms

@taRadvylfsriksushilani that is quite a large fraction of a second

I think it's because it mounts the image every single time you create a container

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

What's half a second going to hurt? The network and stuff is probably just as big of a delay

Ginger Industries

i'm going to set up a system that uses yalls APIS to run interpreters for other languages

pxeger

@GingerIndustries VTC as dupe of chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/240?m=60346271#60346271

Ginger Industries

@pxeger well this idea is a bit different

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries With RTO, you know you can just upload the language's interpreter and have RTO itself run it, right? :p

RTO will allow users to submit their own languages

mathcat

17:48

VTC Ginger as dupe of GingerBot

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani idk about you, but a hello world on TIO only takes about 300ms RTT

Ginger Industries

instead of simply running preexisting languages, I'm going to set up a repository of interpreters that my service runs using your services

pxeger

that's my goal

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries But...why not just add that repository to RTO, saving time for both of us? :p

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani because yall are slow and the Internet is impatient

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:49

No, you can upload them yourself

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani ???

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

RTO lets users submit custom languages, without me

mathcat

how?

Ginger Industries

oh.

mathcat

as a docker file?

Ginger Industries

17:50

:/

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

So that a TIO situation can never occur

Ginger Industries

weLL IMMA DO IT ANYWAY

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@mathcat Yes, that's one option

mathcat

or a github repo linK?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

If it's written in a language like Python or JS, it'll handle the container stuff for you

mathcat

17:51

oh ok

nice

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

So like, if you write brainfuck.py, you just upload that, choose the correct I/O format, and you're done

Ginger Industries

cmon I wanna set up one of these services but yall are already doing it

;⸻;

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

It'll go through a sort of "peer-review" process before being usable on the main site, but that'll just involve a few registered users scanning over the code for 5m and clicking a "this is not a bitcoin miner" button :p

Ginger Industries

there is no room for me to do anything

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries You can join the OISB team :p

Ginger Industries

17:52

@taRadvylfsriksushilani well what is there for me to do

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Actually, not that much honestly.

Ginger Industries

see?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

We're working on some of the details of how the containers will be set up right now

Ginger Industries

i do not very good at container

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

And I'm having to write some rather complicated stuff in Rust which is fun (sarcasm)

Ginger Industries

17:54

list of things Ginger is good at:
* python

that's about it

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Multithreading and child processes and stdio streams in Rust...such fun yay

mathcat

@GingerIndustries didn't you forget Github Perks?

Ginger Industries

perhaps I could set up a CGCC chatroom bot to run code using OISB?

@mathcat and that

mathcat

and GingerBot

Ginger Industries

and that

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

17:55

@GingerIndustries That could be a good idea. I'll be adding an API soon.

Ginger Industries

hooray I had a good idea!

lemme make the chatroom RN

just need a clever name

DLosc

@mathcat No, it's little ^_^

Ginger Industries

uhhhh

name suggestions?

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani Is there a reason you chose Rust, even though it's hard?

actually Rust generally isn't hard, it's flaky and crumbles off when you touch it

mathcat

@GingerIndustries what's OISB?

pxeger

17:59

Feb 1 at 21:07, by ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Online Interpreter Shared Back-end

Ginger Industries

@mathcat Online Interpreter shared Backend

ninja'd

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@pxeger Because C was too hard to do this stuff with, and Node wasn't low-level enough, and AviFS tried Go and it didn't work well

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani laughs in Python

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

And Python just doesn't have the capabilities to do what we need, at all

It's very low level stdio stuff

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani if it's turing-complete then you can do it

pxeger

18:00

@taRadvylfsriksushilani ATO uses Go, Bash, Zsh, and C, and in the medium-to-long term I'm hoping to replace most of that with Go

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries Calculation-wise, yes. OS wise, no.

Ginger Industries

yes i know what turing-complete means

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Not a fan of Go, honestly

pxeger

Why not? I really like its simplicity

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

OISB itself uses Node, which works perfectly fine.

It's just a few very low level scripts running within the containers that need C/Rust.

@pxeger The syntax is big ugly

Ginger Industries

18:01

well the room is for practicing code right?
so I think I'll call it the Firing Range or smth similar

pxeger

oh that's only superficial, come on

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

"superficial"...it's half the language

If my code is ugly I am not happy.

pxeger

@taRadvylfsriksushilani I've genuinely found shell script very good for writing low-level I/O code

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

It probably is, that's what I'll be trying next

pxeger

I care about writability and readability

ugliness is not necessarily the same

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

18:02

And syntax is a major part of that

If I don't want to read code because it's hideous, it's not very readable

mathcat

@DLosc it's huge

pxeger

"The syntax is big ugly" - I'm not responding to "syntax", but "ugly"

Ginger Industries

should I reuse GingerBot or create a new one?

pxeger

The only objections to Go's syntax I can think of are: variable type syntax instead of type variable or variable: type; the := operator; some of the control flow being reused for things they aren't (mainly the for loop); backtick strings

I don't like its packaging and module system, but I haven't really found any language that does it right so I won't complain

at least it's not as bad as Python and JS

Ginger Industries

tbh GB is a mess, I think it's best if I make a new one

I shall call it OLIMAR: OnLine Interpreter MetA-Runner

if anyone asks, total coincidence

pxeger

18:08

pikmin? lol

mathcat

@GingerIndustries Oliver goes to Mars

pxeger

@pxeger just measured (unscientifically), and it's about 600ms on TIO, vs. 300ms on ATO

although that's probably related to TIO being in the US and ATO being in Finland

The traceroute results are actually very interesting

bit.ly/34BacKc (ATO link too long for one SE chat message)

30 hops to TIO vs 18 hops to ATO

and almost every hop to TIO didn't respond (that's what * * * is)

Ginger Industries

@pxeger Python Interface to Connect to oisb-coMpatible Internet iNterpreters: PICMIN

pxeger

REDACTED are the bits which were common between both, and therefore probably pretty identifying, so I removed them

Ginger Industries

yes that is the final name, no i do not regret anything

@taRadvylfsriksushilani do you mind if I use one of your emails again?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

18:21

Not at all. Just do anything @amidst.dev

Ginger Industries

alr

@taRadvylfsriksushilani ok it sent the message

user

@pxeger So is the biggest language Ada? Or something else?

Ginger Industries

hopefully that doesn't result in you having access to the account :/

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Well it would, but only if I knew the exact email address you'd used

And I'd also have to care enough about some random sock to bother with it lol

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani ah well, just as long as it worked

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

18:24

Such confidence inspiring

Ginger Industries

better then "your package might be delivered"

nothing has happened

@taRadvylfsriksushilani it says it sent a confirmation email

pxeger

@user nope, it was Funky2 (because it uses .NET Core)

Followed by Java, Go, then Ada

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries I clicked the thingy, you should be good now

Ginger Industries

ok thanks

does OISB have a logo?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

I tried to send you the link instead of licking it myself, but it was too big to fit in chat

pxeger

18:30

> licking

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@GingerIndustries No, we made the name like a week ago :p

Ginger Industries

hmmm

todo: make a logo

mathcat

I'm an expert logo designer

I uh um originally created the logo of SE Nitro

Ginger Industries

@mathcat ok then

I have a logo that I made using Unicode:
1️⃣2️⃣
⏩🆗

mathcat

(that was sarcastic)

But I'll try

Ginger Industries

18:33

@mathcat too late now

mathcat

Themes are programming, back-end, interpreter, golfing, and languages?

Ginger Industries

@mathcat more or less

keep in mind that this will be OLIMAR's pfp

mathcat

so 128x128?

Ginger Industries

yes, and not too complex

bc it'll get scaled down

mathcat

okay

because of an excellent extension installed

okay, this is my first time using it but

The dimensions shown in the chat are 16x16

pxeger

18:37

@GingerIndustries how about this:

Ginger Industries

that's not related

pxeger

it's olimar!

mathcat

so a 12.5% zoom

@pxeger "captain olimar" lol

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Don't you hate when you accidentially do vim main instead of vim main.c/vim main.rs/vim main.go?

Ginger Industries

@pxeger no, that's a guy in a spacesuit

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

18:39

I've only done it twice but it seems like something that deserves some hate

pxeger

yes I do do that sometimes and it is annoying

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Mutex sounds like it'd be a cold medicine

user

Sounds like something from a sci-fi movie to me

mathcat

Is there a language with a short print function and is popular?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Ruby has p

Ginger Industries

18:45

@mathcat APO- oh wait you said popular

nevermind then

user

"Oh no, he got access to the Mutex! Now he'll gain even more superpowers!"

Ginger Industries

we'll have to lock him down

get the semaphores!

mathcat

@taRadvylfsriksushilani thanks

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

And an Arc Mutex sounds like an even more dangerous sci-fi weapon

user

@user Side note: I dislike movies branded as science fiction that really just use science as a way to handwave all sorts of magic

@taRadvylfsriksushilani Cow is a lot less threatening, fortunately :P

Ginger Industries

18:46

@user Did you mean: The Core?

> Unobtainium

user

@taRadvylfsriksushilani "We need to turn off the RefCell before it spawns more clones into the Mutex!"

l4m2

Currently do log_256(1.8) byte exist in any language?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

@user Just put it in a Box

@l4m2 I don't think that'd be possible with any existing languages, no

Ginger Industries

most of what we do here is stupid programmer jokes

user

@l4m2 You mean a codepage of that size?

@GingerIndustries Mainly reposts from Reddit and Twitter :P

@taRadvylfsriksushilani It's all good, its lifetime ended immediately

l4m2

18:51

I know it can exist and is a good measure but not sure if now

Ginger Industries

@user I have coughs no idea what you're talking about.

@taRadvylfsriksushilani lemme know once you've got the OISB API online

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

You can use the ws for now if you want

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani eh?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

the websocket

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani are there docs

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

18:58

@GingerIndustries No, because the ws is for internal use. But if you go to rto.run, the JS is basically documentation

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani I knew it

also that's one of the most ghetto sites I've ever seen

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Yeah it's very prototype :p

Ginger Industries

alrighty, lemme set up a library

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

I've got some pretty cool plans for RTO's UI though

Ginger Industries

fun

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

19:06

@GingerIndustries Prolly shouldn't do the FA review for your own bot, due to sock rules

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani ???

oh.

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Since you technically benefit from doing the review (1 out of 250 or whatever reviews needed for the badge)

Ginger Industries

well, too late now

sry

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

It doesn't matter that much, just good to keep the separation as far as possible

mathcat

19:27

Feedback on Olimar colorpalette?

Does it look like a backend interpreter smth?

Ginger Industries

@mathcat looks alr

mathcat

noice

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani what do you think?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Of the color palette?

mathcat

What is an Online Interpreter Sharing Back-end?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

19:30

It's the back-end code that will power RTO.

I'm making it with AviFS, and we're sharing it between our two interpreters, and it'll be open source so other people can use it for their projects if they want to

Ginger Industries

@taRadvylfsriksushilani yes

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Looks good.

It's not really my style so I don't really like it personally, but it is good

mathcat

19:46

wait second ... how

How did a stupid person like me reach 25k people

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

It's based on view counts on questions you've answered

mathcat

I mean, If I had that many subscribers

I will have more subscribers than Pewdiepie

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

According to CGCC I've reached more than 600k people :p

mathcat

@taRadvylfsriksushilani oh disappointed

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

It's basically a meaningless statistic

mathcat

19:49

but

I remember (at least some months ago) somewhere you can see the number of people who read your profile

that's more accurate

but it seems it's not there anymore

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

They removed it due to "privacy concerns" or something stupid like that

Iit was the same time that they got rid of a ton of other nice stuff

mathcat

aw

I remember past math seeing those

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

CMQ: If you had an array of byte string and needed to represent those with a single byte string, how would you do that?

pxeger

if this is for command-line arguments, then with null byte terminators

because command-line args can't contain null bytes

otherwise I'd use some kind of escape system (e.g. comma-separated with backslashes to escape commas and backslashes), or an established multi-purpose serialisation format like msgpack

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

The solution I've ended up going with is prefixing the length

Like TLS and other networking protocols do

emanresu A

20:17

@taRadvylfsriksushilani That's... gosh rustpython is tiny

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Well, keep in mind those come with full OS installs too

Although Alpine, what the Python image uses, is only about 5 MB

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

All substrings code-golfsequencesubsequenceopen-ended-function Make a program that outputs a sequence of integers so that every finite sequence of positive integers is a substring (continuos subsequence) of the output. For example, the following sequence satisfies the rules: 1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,2,2,1...

Ginger Industries

ok I've kinda got PICMIN working

@taRadvylfsriksushilani what langs does OISB support?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

Currently, Node.js. In the future? Planning on shipping first full release with 40 or so.

Unrelated String

@GingerIndustries i take it that's what OLIMAR is for?

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

20:27

And adding at least one a day for the next few months after that

Ginger Industries

@UnrelatedString OLIMAR is the bot, PICMIN is the Python library it uses

Unrelated String

nice

mathcat

I'll continue to work on the logo tomorrow o/

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

o/

emanresu A

o/

Fine to ask, you might want to ping Neil who uses retina

Aiden Chow

20:45

@emanresuA oh ok

new to retina, can someone with better experience explain why this code works on retina 0.8.2: tio.run/##K0otycxL/P8/JkWbS0WLy/D/fxNTLjMA, but not on other retina: tio.run/##K0otycxLNPz/PyZFm0tFiwvIsjRTMAcA

emanresu A

@Neil ^

Aiden Chow

should add two numbers

retina 0.8.2 returns what i expected, but retina 1 returning 0 for some reason

caird coinheringaahing

Try it online!

I'm guessing $* does something different in Retina 1

Aiden Chow

@cairdcoinheringaahing it should do the same thing, github.com/m-ender/retina/wiki/The-Language/…

it says that in 0.8.2 too

github.com/m-ender/retina/wiki/The-Language/…

caird coinheringaahing

Huh, then no idea

Aiden Chow

20:50

oops wrong link

but it says the same thing

oh wait nvm

im blind

it says $* is the literal asterisk :facepalm:

ok disregard everything i said i figured it out lol

ok wait then how do you convert to unary in the newer retina then

im so bad at reading documentation i literally was reading 0.8.2 documentation twice and thought they were two different documentations

caird coinheringaahing

Try it online!

pxeger

21:08

grr: github.com/attempt-this-online/languages/blob/main/languages/…

(or should that be gr_but_longer?)

emanresu A

Just call it python

five chat flags at once???

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Q: ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

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cipher

caird coinheringaahing

21:28

@emanresuA That's actually really clever :P

thejonymyster

how do you put collapsibles in posts

i couldnt find it in the markdown guide

Neil

@AidenChow in Retina 0.8.2, $* is the character repetition operator whose RHS defaults to '1' while in Retina 1, * is the string repetition operator whose RHS defaults to "_"

Aiden Chow

21:49

@Neil thanks, that clears things up

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, thats what i came up with too, thanks for the help

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster Aisde from stack snippets, you can't

thejonymyster

@cairdcoinheringaahing I guess my answer will just be long then :P

user

22:40

wtf, I was making some methods to turn ASTs back into source code, Copilot just autocompleted all but one of them, including one where it needed to know the actual syntax for that AST

Oh wait, it got the syntax from the docstring

Still really impressive though

hyper-neutrino

the fact that it got the syntax from the docstring is quite impressive

if it managed to get the syntax without having anything to refer to that'd be somewhat concerning :P

ta Radvylf srik su shilani

I switched my code editor's font from cousine (chrome's default) to Roboto Mono, and it's kinda annooying because they're near-identical fonts, except with tiny differences. And my eyes keep like...blurring stuff to try to "fix" it

The same thing happened when I made some subtle changes to the colors, any time I'd look at it when I looked away the colors of other objects had shifted. Presumably I'd been so used to seeing those colors that when I changed them a tiny bit, my brain just assumed my eyes weren't working right and adjusted everything else to compensate.

user

@hyper-neutrino Well I originally thought it somehow inferred the syntax from the parser (which is in another file and not very straightforward)

emanresu A

Ugh, Japt is pain

Its interpreter requires an HTML element for stdout and stderr

Idk why but it's a real pain to use

Oh wait, I can just override Japt.output

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