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11:35
well ophact deleted their account i think
in flax, 30 secs ago, by PyGamer0
PR: #11
well i guess thats progress
11:55
@emanresuA ZX81 Basic did. The ZX Spectrum renamed it to goto without a space
@DialFrost sum(map(int,input().split()))%2 is already 0 or 1, no need to use if and else
0
Q: Find the biggest chunk

Wheat Wizard This challenge is not code golf. Please read the scoring before you attempt to submit an answer You will be given a multi-line string as input. You should output the size of the largest contiguous chunk of non-space characters. Contiguous just means that the chunk is a single piece rather th...

Is there a way to get the source page for a question that hasn't been edited?
https://<relevant stackexchange domain>/posts/<post id>/revisions
12:11
Ok I tried that but I must have misspelled revisions :)
It's annoying that the source is based on some mysterious hash and thus can't be predicted.
I wish it were more like the revision links.
it'd be great if there was a button that you could click
For me I want to keep a link to the source of the challenge in the challenge itself, so it would be nice if I could predict where the page was going to be before I hit submit.
like /posts/<id>/revisions/3/source or whatever.
I see what you mean from your latest challenge
yeah, predictability would be nice
12:45
Ok I managed to get it.
Notice how the link is to the exact page it is on.
13:20
@taRadvylfsriksushilani ay thanks for the nominations
CMQ: What are your thoughts on me using { for decrement and } for increment.
They make sense
13:36
Eugh.
J (ab)uses { and } and [ and ] for non-paired built-ins, and I hate it.
I also wouldn't remember which is which.
@PyGamer0 Do you need glyph suggestions for increment and decrement?
no, i got up arrow and down arrow
@Adám { move left on the number line, } move right on the number line
Then I don't understand what you're after. You already have glyphs for increment and decrement, but suggest also making }{?
you see i wanted to convert the arrows to ascii (to save code page space)
and {}() are currently unusedin flax
14:01
@PyGamer0 i highly dislike it but this is a golfing language
so that.. seems fine to use
> highly dislike it
wven i dislike it but i gotta save codepage space
go ahead lol
be confident in your design choices
uh atleast its better than jelly lol
@Adám wait till you find out we used to have homoglyphs :p
@PyGamer0 well yeah you have the data of many different and varied golflangs which succeeded and failed
jelly didn't have that luxury
so obviously it has problems
14:16
0
Q: Tag proposal: [self-scoring]

Wheat WizardI'd like to propose self-scoring or a similar tag, but I'd like to get some feedback on whether this is useful and how the tag might work. First the proposal: self-scoring is a scoring criterion where the scoring mechanism and the task required are the same. This means that if you pass your pro...

 
1 hour later…
15:35
CMQ: Golf:
n=ord("~")
f=lambda x:reduce(lambda a,b:-~a<<f(~-x)<<b,range(eval("<<".join("x"*x))))if x else n
f(n)
uhh
I can golf to 0 bytes
thats not 0 bytes
i striketrough.
ord("~") can be 126 lol
15:41
no numbers
@BgilMidol I think you are done
i had to make the number smaller to get 100 bytes:
n=ord("~")
f=lambda x:reduce(lambda a,b:-~a<<f(~-x)<<b,range(-~x<<x<<x<<x<<x<<x<<x))if x else n
f(n)
@BgilMidol -~x<<x<<x<<..x<<x can be
@BgilMidol you must wait when i'm writing.
16:00
This is the question with most answers but none has net score of 1 or greater.
16:55
Not surprising considering that it is a very boring question.
Yeah, well you'd probably get 2-3 bytes on a golflang.
 
1 hour later…
18:29
Hi
Hi mathcat
The anagram's kinda obvious now
Unless you're pretending to be mathcat
nope
Two can play at the sock game
18:30
wait a second what?
I thought you were lyxal
hmm
Two can play at the allxy game
No I give up, my brain is overheated.
You socks are comfusing me
Wait is that aipfp
that's lyxals discord pfp
18:36
oh that one
wait wrong tab
yes
I am confusing my sock.
18:58
TIL perl has a File exists error
(discvered while messing with this)
19:46
@taRadvylfsriksushilani I used to use Brachylog (2), but some people found it confusing so I switched to Brachylog (v2)
What is userscript?
@Fmbalbuena It's a script you can download which runs on certain websites, sort of like an extension
You use Tampermonkey or Greasemonkey, which are chrome/FF extensions, to run them
What is ta Radvylf srik?
katlani for Redwolf's writing
I think
@emanresuA Looks good
19:59
@mathcat Closer to "Redwolf writes programs"
"Redwolf's writing" (with 's as possessive) would be closer to y ladi srik ta Radvylf (that which is written by Redwolf)
And "Redwolf's writing" with 's meaning "is" would be ta Radvylf ni srik
Oh, ta Radvylf srik on its own (which is what Fmbalbuena asked, on second read) would mean "Redwolf is writing", although perhaps more closely "Redwolf writes"
su shilani is also part of my name though, which is what makes it "Redwolf writes programs"
JS async is so confusing
fetch('https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/redwolfprograms/in-floop/in_floop.js').then(x => x.text()).then(async text => {
    console.log(text, eval(text))
    window.in_floop = in_floop
}).then(_ => console.log('in-floop.js loaded', in_floop))
This probably is a bad idea
Is that an async function in a .then?
@emanresuA I find it helps massively to stop thinking of it as an async keyword, and more as syntactic sugar for a function that returns a promise
Yep
Surprisingly it works
@taRadvylfsriksushilani Hmm, okay
hello
20:13
CMM: would it be reasonable to answer this question with a language that I invented specifically for the purpose of doing well on that question, or would it be a loophole violation? Unlike many "invent a language for the purpose" questions, this one is resistant to "just make it solve the problem in 0 bytes" or "just add a builtin"
@ais523 Are you real?
or a sock?
both
2
@ais523 I think it'd be fine, as long as it's interesting. I think it's more important to look at the reason for the loophole existing, which is to prevent trivial and boring answers.
don't have 20 rep on my CGCC account, and I have different accounts on different network sites
20:14
@ais523 What's the language?
Incident
@Fmbalbuena if you write a self-interpreter in Incident, let me know – it would definitely be worth a bounty
it almost certainly isn't worth the trouble though
@ais523 I really need to learn incident, but I can't learn.
Hmm, looks interesting
20:16
this is one of those things that is known to be theoretically possible, but few people have the patience to actually do
(so to answer the "sock" question – I'm the same person as the ais523 on CGCC, but using a different account, this one has the rep needed to chat from Puzzling)
@ais523 Not entirely sure about the "technical rules legality", but IMO, it should be. As Redwofl said, the loopholes are basically to prevent boring "my made up language can do this trivially", not necessarily languages that are inspired by - and so naturally good at - tasks
@Fmbalbuena: note that Incident was intentionally designed as a puzzle, figuring out how to program in it is intended to be interesting, and that's why there's both a spoiler-free and a spoilers/hints version of the spec
that makes me not want to post explanations publicly, to avoid spoiling it for people who don't want it, but you should find an explanation of how to program it inside the zip file if you're interested
@ais523 IMO the loophole is silly and should be ignored. If it's interesting it's interesting and that's really all that matters.
@emanresuA Should I make an online interpreter and debugger for In Floop?
(however, even if you fully understand Incident, it's still a nightmare to do anything nontrivial in the language, and even some trivial things are difficult)
I used an evolutionary algorithm to help me with writing the hello world, for example…
5
20:21
That sounds incredibly cool
@ais523 <first copy 1><second copy 1><first copy 2><second copy 2><third copy 2><third copy 1> When executes the first copy, jumps to third copy 1 or third copy 2?
Imagine introducing the concept of a Hello World program from that perspective: "A Hello, World! program is one of the most trivial programs to write, and can sometimes require an evolutionary algorithm to write"
@Fmbalbuena it jumps to immediately after the second copy of 1, commands only ever jump to immediately after other copies of themselves
@taRadvylfsriksushilani Probably, I'm just (attempting) to put it on DSO
@ais523 Do you think in floop is turing complete? If you reserve a variable as the tape pointer it's similar to Picofuck but I don't know if it still works with unbounded integers.
@ais523 output?
20:24
@cairdcoinheringaahing I have posted this on puzzling: puzzling.stackexchange.com/q/114666/74193 :P
@emanresuA quite a large proportion of my languages nowadays are "infinite loop + if-like flow-control" (or arithmetic-like flow-control), so that construction can be TC; In Floop probably is
Hmm okay
actually In Floop is trivially TC: using only + and @, it can directly implement the I/D machine
+ implements I and @ implements D, so you don't need any of the other instructions
2
(this is assuming unbounded integers are supported – with bounded integers you run out of memory because there's a limit to how many array elements you can index)
20:27
@ais523 Yep, it uses bigints
it can also do Three Star Programmer fairly directly
err, maybe not, it has no easy way to set a variable to 0
the I/D machine should work though because it doesn't need one
admin where? I'm not a Stack Exchange admin
:60297166 ais is a normal user
Used to have ~30k rep on PPCG, then left. Posts answers on the site from time to time, either from their temp account, or as a CW answer
@ais523 Is there a output in Incident?
20:33
@Fmbalbuena yes, whichever token is at the centre of the program (counting by tokens) produces output as a side effect when its first and third copies run
this became a running joke in the "add a language to a polyglot" challenge because people accidentally moved where the centre of the program was so often
(the token also has its normal behaviour too, the output is just an extra thing it does)
try running it through incilite, it'll make a little more sense
@Fmbalbuena It's a cat program :P
it can be hard for human eyes to spot the character sequences that are repeated exactly three times in ASCII art
(although there are some obvious ones like ^^)
@ais523 Is there a regex to shorten Incident Programs?
20:37
I don't think regex works at all well with Incident because there isn't a fixed list of tokens, and making pretty much any change to the source code can cause cascading side effects on how the rest of it parses
I seriously recommend using a syntax highlighter if you're trying to study programs, there's one in the Incident distribution
here's what the cat program looks like with syntax highlighting – it's substantially easier to read
Where is the third copy of "_"?
there are way more than three copies of _ so it isn't a token
Where is the center of the program?
on the third /
the syntax-highlighter underlined the / to make that clear
@ais523 Can you have overlapping substrings? If not, is || a token?
20:43
@emanresuA if a string has three copies but some of them overlap each other or a different token, it gets detokenised
in the cat program, there are exactly three copies of ␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠ (i.e. eight spaces), but they all overlap within the same run of ten spaces, so none of them count
@ais523 It doesn't help that _ merges with adjacent _
the syntax highlighter shows the overlaps with a dark cyan underline, and the rest of the tokens that were detokenised due to overlaps in brown
@ais523 Golfed cat program?
(|| isn't a token because it appears more than three times, incidentally; the overlaps would disqualify it too but the lexer doesn't get that far)
there's a "cat.golfed" on my computer which is ab <> >a< <> bbccac
but I suspect the whitespace isn't required (you rarely can tell with Incident though)
also it apparently doesn't work
20:48
@Fmbalbuena I'm guessing there's a once-executed decrement command, and an infinite loop in there somewhere
Knowing nothing about Incident :P
@cairdcoinheringaahing Incident doesn't have numbers at all, there isn't a decrement command – what you saw there was an infinite loop outputting 1 bits
@ais523 Center?
@ais523 I was close :P
@Fmbalbuena third m
@ais523 I haven't learned input, Is the stack input bits?
20:52
each command has its own stack, popping any empty stack reads input
in that program I think c's stack is the one that's maintained empty and used for input
Wait, EOF?
on EOF, the pop command doesn't jump anywhere and just keeps running forwards through the program
0
Q: Make the largest number in up to 25 characters

Jaacko TorusMake the largest number in up to 20 characters Rules: The program must terminate (You must prove it if it's not obvious) The program must output the answer in base 10

that's the only time when a pop command doesn't jump to another copy of the same command
> Make the largest number in up to 20 characters
Rules:
The program must have a maximum length of 10 characters
20:54
huh, that's been edited since the question was first posted, but the numbers still don't match
(it was 25 and 20 originally)
Either way, it's a dupe of the "Largest number in 10 bytes" challenge: codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/31695/66833
the interesting thing about those "largest number in n bytes" challenges is that they can be substantially different for different values of n
@cairdcoinheringaahing !!/Bake the recent question
but even so, I suspect it's a dupe
@Fmbalbuena Stuff only gets moved to the Bakery if it's spam/off-topic. Dupes/deleted questions are fine to be left here
20:56
Ok
in 7's encoding, 10 bytes is enough for 27 digits, so you could trivially do a literal-only answer and get quite a large number, but I think a non-literal-only answer probably does better
@ais523 I still don't understand Incident
@Fmbalbuena this isn't surprising, it's intended to be hard to work out
and I don't want to say too much to avoid spoiling the puzzle for people who want to work it out for themselves
@ais523 Ok
@cairdcoinheringaahing oh, you can't dupe something to a closed question I think (although you can close it for the same reason)
21:01
@ais523 You can dupe something to a closed question, you can't dupe something to a question with zero answers
They often overlap :P
ah, aha
I wonder what the correct course of action is when two effectively identical questions get posted but neither has answers
(except chalking it up to "none of SE's software features actually work for their intended purpose anyway")
@ais523 Can you know if a Language is TC?
@Fmbalbuena not always; sometimes it's theoretically unknowable, sometimes it's difficult to work out but can eventually be proved one way or the other, sometimes it takes a bit of effort to work out, sometimes it's trivial
over the last 5 years or so the esolangs community came up with a lot of new tests for Turing-completeness, so it's often a lot faster to figure it out nowadays than it used to be
@ais523 If they're posted at the same-ish time, then use the one that gets an answer first as a dupe target for the second. If one is posted after the other, flag for a mod to close the newer one as a dupe
(or just flag for a mod, I believe they can close any questions as a dupe of any other question)
e.g. if In Floop had seven variables rather than four, I think it'd be TC even without the array… (The Waterfall Model)
21:07
@ais523 A program with only two commands: replace, execute with variables, Is this Turing complete?
those commands aren't specified precisely enough for me to say
Given that /// is TC, and that basically only has "replace" as a command, probably
/// is self-modifying, which is kind-of important
Currently whether Brain-flak with one level of loops is TC is equivalent to an open problem in mathematics. Knowing whether things are TC even things that aren't that weird can be very hard.
@ais523 Yeah, I was just mentioning that Fmbalbuena's underspecified potential language rings similar to ///
21:09
I have to go o/
@WheatWizard huh, which one?
It's the Skolem problem.
It is very easy to see how the Skolem problem being true makes it not TC, and how it being false means BF is undecidable.
The TC bit on the second part is tougher.
right, it could be undecidable but sub-TC
which is a weird combination, but not completely impossible
Well no it can't, but it's difficult to show it can't.
you can imagine a programming language which has only one program, which outputs a Boolean, which is whether or not the axiom of choice is true
I can't see any definition under which that would be TC, and yet I don't think it makes sense to call the output decidable
(or if you want an undecidable halting problem, make it go into an infinite loop if the axiom of choice is true)
actually implementing this would be another matter, of course, and is probably also impossible
21:14
I'm not certain I follow exactly what the proposed language is.
the language ignores the program you give it, and (by definition) outputs a mathematical fact about the nature of infinity
which is something that we believe is unprovable, you just have to assume that it's true or that it's false
this isn't a very useful language (although in another sense, it's a massively useful language as it'd tell us something that currently has to be taken on faith), and there's no obvious way to implement something like that…
C is known to be independent of ZF.
right
at some point you get into arguments about what decidability even means
e.g. ZF can't be proven consistent in itself, yet we think it is consistent
think is a very weak word.
We have forcing. I would say we know ZF is consistent.
indeed – this is a field where it's hard to use strong words, because at some point, it leaves the realm of computer science and enters the realm of philosophy
huh, I just found a question which gives a byte bonus for proper quines
I'm guessing the defaults probably don't apply to it because it predated them?
21:21
I don't know. It's probably clearly overriding them at least.
fwiw, I think Brain-Flak is very slightly more powerful than the Skolem problem because of the stack height builtin
No, it just turns into another parameter in the matrix.
the matrix requires all parameters to be handled equally, doesn't it?
You can reduce any brain-flak without a loop into a linear transform, you have to add an addition row for the height, but you can.
It doesn't require any special treatment.
maybe I'm underestimating what sort of power the matrix can have
21:26
So if you ignore the stack height for a moment you can take any snippet and determine the depth it reads and the difference in output it makes on the stack.
right, my problem is more to do with how the recurrence relation is defined
is 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 3, 8, 4, 16, 5, 32, 6, etc., a sequence that can be generated from a recurrence relation?
like, alternating between integers and powers of 2
this is very easy to do in one-loop Brain-Flak (in fact you can do it in two different ways), but some of the equivalent definitions on the Wikipedia page seem to allow it and others seem to disallow it
hmm, the link to the PDF isn't working
hmm. Works for me.
probably something to do with browser settings, mine are quite restrictive
21:30
It shows that the recurrence relation and matrix formulation of the Skolem problem are equivalent.
I'm happy that the matrix formulation captures what one-loop Brain-Flak is capable of
(including stack height)
so if they're equivalent, the recurrence relation must be capable of it too
Well 1 loop Brainflak is a little more powerful, but it's halting problem is determined by the matrix formulation.
Maybe that was what you were initially trying to say? But afaik the stack height doesn't make the difference.
It's an annoying detail that makes some things messy but you can smooth over it.
I think I understand – the only way you can halt is to have a 0 on top of the stack, and that must be a linear combination of values in known places – a recurrence relation can't handle all the intermediate values, but it can track the value of the linear combination so it halts in the same place
21:49
@mods, could I get some help with a comment flag I raised on main?
I looked at it and I don't really even know what's going on there.
Same here really
It seemed like an exception so I contacted the exception-handlers :p
Sue me or ban me dude. I dont care. It's my opinion. I dont intend to use SO anymore. — Jellyboy 6 mins ago
I think what's happening is that a user's posted a challenge that's unsolvable in general, but some closely related challenges are solvable, but they're aggressively refusing to acknowledge that their formulation of the problem doesn't allow their intended solution to it
22:00
^
I more mean I don't really understand the other aspects of what is happening.
try {
  throw exception
} catch(e) {
  mods.nuke(e);
}
@emanresuA Smokey, golfed
22:16
Lol
You know you've been using golflangs too much when print() feels like too much boilerplate for outputting a number. :P
@lyxal Did you erally use a drake meme in a Best Of nomination? :P
<insert Drake meme where he disapproves of textual nominations and approves of ones with memes>
I just realised - how do you split a +500 in thirds?
We've got enough rep in the "pool" to just do +500 to each
22:28
Ok, wow that's generous
Oops wrong account
@taRadvylfsriksushilani You joined as dominic van essen and thejonymyster left, so it looked like you kicked them out
Oh, I did. I hate their guts.
@cairdcoinheringaahing I'd maybe do something like +250 to each, just so that group nominations aren't overvalued
@taRadvylfsriksushilani What about intestines
I think I'm going to do another round of nominations
For what?
22:33
Regarding Best Of: There's roughly 4 days left to make nominations. Every category now has at least one nomination. But, Off the Charts, Kansas City Shuffle, Best Non-CG Challenge and Rookie of the Year - Challenges are currently uncontested
10
We've got four days left, so it wouldn't hurt to knock out some of the uncontested ones.
Well, partially ninja'd lol
I feel like Best Non-CG Challenge and Breaking the Mold are pretty similar
@cairdcoinheringaahing I was thinking of nominating compose a song, line by line for best non-cg
And a lot of my nominations for Underappreciated work for both
22:34
I think I've got a couple more noms to make
@emanresuA But I'm noth sure if it qualifies, since it wasn't a particularly good challenge
(scoring problems)
(And how it ends)
But the results were cool
Ultimately, that's what the voting phase is for. If people don't think so, they won't vote for it
I might nominate some KotHs to best Non-CG
I've got a koth in mind to Sandbox, now you mention them :P
I kinda want to nominate Minceraft for breaking the mold, but I'm not sure if it's original/interesting enough
22:36
@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh fun
A friend recently intro'd me to Legacy's Allure and I think the starter armies might make for a nice koth
Potentially, I was considering allowing people to draft their own army, and building a bot that plays that army
But that's much more complex
That sounds like a fun addition
22:38
(Oh, and spam: check out the game, it's really fun! :P If you like chess style strategy games, it's great :P)
Chess is hard
[citation needed]
@emanresuA Not sure if it applies tbh. I agree with pxeger's nom for that (and you) for Rookie of the Year
@emanresuA Minceraft doesn't seem particularly interesting to me
@emanresuA I think it's worth a nom, it was a fun challenge. Doubt it'll win tho
22:42
I'm going to try using SEDE (or, more likely, get frustrated with SQL and download all the answers as HTML and use Node) to find possible candidates for off the charts and best explanation
@emanresuA Proof
Jan 25 at 1:26, by DLosc
@DLosc SEDE query for long posts to look for nominees for Best Explanation
If it helps
@taRadvylfsriksushilani Look for up-arrow notation
Oh good idea
I was thinking about factorials and lots of exponents
And ignore anything with Unary, but look for large strings of digits next to bytes
Anything more than up-arrow is likely to just be something intentionally slow rather than golfy-and-slow-as-a-fun-side-effect
Excessively long possibly?
Isn't Off the Charts for performance/time complexity only?
I may have a few incredibly slow answers lying around :P
22:49
I was considering self-nominating many of my answers, but they generally turned out to have been posted in 2020
Well, I finally decided to stop being lazy and compile Text from scratch with my custom CSS
@emanresuA yeah, either use then or async/await, but try to avoid mixing the two

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