appears and then waves

\o

/o

*wall falls on AaroneousMiller's head*

*pxeger's head falls on toppled wall*

uh

o/o: pxeger pushes wall onto AaroneousMiller's head

@Wezl-acautionarytale That o: perfectly encapsulated my reaction when the wall hit me

So, back in 2015, when Trump running for president was still a joke, I signed up for his "election newsletter" thinking I'd unsubscribe once I got bored. Well, it's been 7 years, and I've tried unsubscribing from his shit 1000s of times, added anything that says "Trump" to my spam filter, and I still just got an email saying "Buy your Trump 2022 calendar now" ಠ_ಠ

cuz obviously that's a great way to get people to want to support you and not hate you

Hmm, I'm not sure if I should vote for A or B. Well, A spams me with hundreds of emails a day asking for donations, so... yep, A it is

o\o: revenge; oø: bad colision detection

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm pretty sure B does the same (maybe with less deception ("[politician] personally asked me to make sure you donate so you can be in [pronoun] hall of fame!"))

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well now you’re honor bound to come over to the US and commit voter fraud to get Trump electrd

Hello, rues. You seem familiar somehow. Have we met?

Not at all

However, you may be confusing me with user. Great guy, just as brilliant and awesome as I am

Also, I am mildly scared of tour name

@Wezl-acautionarytale what happened to funny CSS bio?

you had the most mildly amusing bio on this whole site!

Wezl (2021 - 2021) golfed to death ∎

Weasels use typographical tombstones rather than slabs of stone

"thus it has been proven"

what has been proven?

it has been proven that Wezl was not immortal?

@pxeger CSS is now obsolete. Hover text is the one true way to style text

@pxeger Is that a compliment or an insult? Everyone else had a more severely amusing bio...

@pxeger It has been proven that Wezl is dead using the circular method :P

Weasels can do that because they can ∎

@pxeger Please tell me, where is this "pronoun hall of fame"? I wish to visit and see all the most famous pronouns :P

It's in the pronoun museum, by the "they/them through the ages" exhibit

Just turn left when you pass the "all the times you've accidentally called a stranger 'mom'" display

(wait, is "mom" a pronoun? I suppose it could sort of be...)

I'd love to see this remade in 2021

It has a not-insignificant area for Myspace. Yeah, it needs updating :P

> Isle of teenagers who just discovered macroeconomics

That seems... oddly specific

A map of SE would be cool too

I mean the sizes aren't going to be particularly surprising, but the way they're shaped/arranged could be neat

@cairdcoinheringaahing unfortunately people tend to reuse the same pronouns on multiple websites, so there are too few pronouns to make a good museum exhibit

That's just a giant landmass labelled "SO", a small area labeled "Math.SE" and the rest of the network on some tiny island

if we can get everyone to start using a gender manager to generate random secure genders, it might work

> Random secure genders

Reminds me of "secure fonts" lol

@pxeger Unfortunately, in order for you to know my gender, I'd have to reveal my private key, and that's a security risk

@cairdcoinheringaahing Have you heard of Diffie Hellman?

@cairdcoinheringaahing I thought we'd managed to establish that gender was not (entirely) correlated to your private parts?

(sorry)

@GrainGhost Thanks to Google, I have now

@pxeger Wait, if there's also a public key, and we're using "key" to mean...

SIGKILL's @RedwolfPrograms 's brain thinking process

@ThomasWard kill: illegal pid: init

Just press Ctrl-C on Redowlf :P

that's a SIGINT

oops, looks like someone made RedwolfPrograms the root of all other people again

SIGKILL is more forceful

@cairdcoinheringaahing No all it does is copy any parts of me that are highlighted

@lyxal, the hivemind is leaking!!!!

Crap, now I need to draw on you to copy you? Ugh

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, Linux has been copy-on-write for ages!

@ThomasWard They both start with "SIG", that's good enough for me :P

Just please don't use Ctrl+X it hurts

@cairdcoinheringaahing Special Interest Group KILL

grins evilly

executes Ctrl+X on @RedwolfPrograms for science

@cairdcoinheringaahing try highlighter paintball

And Special Interest Group Intelligence :P

@ThomasWard SIGSTOP might be more humane

you can SIGCONT again if you determine there was a mistrial

Why don't you just find whatever hardware I'm running on and turn it off and back on

Or just delete my source code and do what I did with NP/SP that one time

locates @RedwolfPrograms 's hardware and turns it off

forgets to turn it back on

Delete the source code, panic, find an ACE vulnerability in the running copy and use it to recover the source code from RAM

Which is one of my proudest accomplishments lol

lol

This is Redwolf talking :P

lol

I delete lots of things by accident

The xkcds in the 700s and 800s have some really good ones that I haven't read in a while

This xkcd (mostly the title text) reminds me of that experiment where they did machine learning stuff my changing the gates in an FPGA, then tried to port the program to another FPGA and realized it only worked because it had learned to work around a manufacturing flaw in the first FPGA. The old person in the xkcd figures out how to do something, the incorrect way for anyone else, but they've "programmed" themselves to work with that.

@RedwolfPrograms Agreed

I went through all of them once then got bored and now I just read the new ones

The one with the squirrel saying "Listen. I wouldn't worry about that." is pure gold.

o/

o/

> The old person

Well yes what am I supposed to call them lol

@Wezl-acautionarytale I meant everyone else had an unamusing or less amusing bio, while yours was way up at mildly amusing

@RedwolfPrograms well the xkcd says "relatives"

Well I doubt he's referring to his siblings or their children

If he has those

what's the best way to rotate your monitor for programming?

(Although I typically associate "relatives" with aunts/uncles/grandparents)

@pxeger I usually turn off the screen lock on my phone

@RedwolfPrograms I'm guessing most minors do that as well

or, if you want, "inexperienced people" :P

> no longer need to worry about that pesky 80 column limit. (pxeger's linked page)

*reacts in a way that expresses dislike*

If any lines of my code are under 160 characters I have failed

*defends 80 column line limit*

If any text editors I use have that 80-column vertical line, I destroy those pixels of my screen with a screwdriver and a hammer

@Wezl-acautionarytale where's this from?

right above section "How do I do this"

oh I see, the (pxeger's linked page) wasn't part of the quote

I wish that page wasn't blocked by my school wifi so I could discuss this with y'all, whatever it is

pesky markdown, not allowing <aside>s :P

character limit should be about 100 IMO)

80 is about perfect for me

I disagree with character limits for lines

+ it's already somewhat established

It's an arbitrary metric

I disagree with Redwolf

perhaps it's arbitrary, but it's helpful to have a limit

It forces you to do weird stuff sometimes, which is less readable than just doing stuff the right way

@Wezl-acautionarytale Why?

but doing something the 160-column way is less readable

Either you use wrapping, and it doesn't matter whatsoever, or you don't, and you need to scroll for some especially long lines

But having to do things like this is pure evil, and the 80-column limit encourages it:

If you don't have a line length llimit, there's no reason to separate code into lines at all

@RedwolfPrograms gist.github.com/234601487ce4190da4b5a212bdc8eb28

var x = string.replace(/a/g, "b")
              .replace(/c/g, "d")
              .replace(/f/g, "g")
              .replace(/i/g, "k")
              .replace(/n/g, "o")
              .replace(/p/g, "q")
              .replace(/r/g, "s")
              .replace(/t/g, "u");

dammit, that didn't work!

@Wezl-acautionarytale Uh...not true?

@RedwolfPrograms maybe try a free vpn they haven't blocked?

It makes it more readable

Readability is quite often like the second or third most important thing

which is more readable:

the Rosetta Stone, or this hammer that says "AAAAAAA" on it

points at the hammer that :)

yawns hello TNB

var x = string.replace(/a/g, "b").replace(/c/g, "d").replace(/f/g,
"g").replace(/i/g, "k").replace(/n/g, "o").replace(/p/g, "q").replace
(/r/g, "s").replace(/t/g, "u");

Hi!

or

var x = string.replace(/a/g, "b").replace(/c/g, "d").replace(/f/g,
"g").replace(/i/g, "k").replace(/n/g, "o").replace(/p/g, "q").replace
(/r/g, "s").replace(/t/g, "u");

those're the same string

Those are both garbage (but they're identical I think you messed up the formatting)

the first one is a single line, wrapped by the editor

chat doesn't adhere to your restrictions buddy, so your formatting is messed.

i think this falls under 'if your lines are that long you're doing something wrong period'

here i'll give you a real life example of code comparison without linebreaks

^^

digs hard in his older code banks

If your lines are long enough an 80-character limit changes anything, you need to rethink it

if you use logical line breaks you get nice clean diffs as well

like the whole line-wrap thing shouldn't be relevant most of the time since it fucks with readability in terms of 'what the hell is going on in this line' or it should be split up

All 80-characters does is either 1. let people justify making lines as long as possible up to that limit or 2. make you wrap stuff when it shouldn't be wrapped

@RedwolfPrograms right, and an 80-character limit is a way of reminding you to rethink it

Either the most readable method is making a short line or a long line, and 90% of the time it's a short one, but we humans are smart enough to figure that out without a hard limit

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ I just hate it when I write a line consisting only of x = "a string that is only slightly long. There is no cognitive overload in seeing this on the screen, and yet linters still won't accept it."

^

we can all hate linters together

80 is somewhat overkill imo but its a good guideline, it just dies very quickly when you consider actual complex code with indenting

@RedwolfPrograms i mean, PEP8 at one point allowed teams who agreed to longer line lengths to be 100-120 characters and thereby override linting

80 is fine as a guideline, not as a rule

the teams I work with we have a 100-char-line max

but i usually use 80

no, we can agree that linters are sometimes annoying. ppl who say 'yeah i hate linters' almost invariably have awful code

yeah 100 is normal for me

@RedwolfPrograms yeah, this is probably the best choice

There should never be a line length limit

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ now, if you're using a linter for other follies in coding that's a different story

@RedwolfPrograms But a guideline or soft limit is perfectly okay I suppose

@ThomasWard ?

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ pylint for instance finds other improvements or messups against standard python standards of coding and behavior

(to be fair - most of my experience with linters is just, clang's existence for building C code, plus linting the occasional java projcet)

I still think 80 is better than 100 or 120 or whatever

I left my code under a couch for a few months and it got all dusty, a linter really came in handy there

@Wezl-acautionarytale it's a subjective opinion based on anyone's specific opinion or team requirements.

but arguing your case is going to be futile :)

@ThomasWard ah i always thought that was a weird concept re: pylint. 'pythonic' ways of doing things are often elegant but honestly not worth rearranging my code for

I think a 2-char line limit is best

@ThomasWard also my screen width :P

homie if ur screen is 80 characters wide please get a new one

of course you could store code in memory minified and use structured editing stuff

(but yeah, my 80x25 terminal does appreciate line wrapping. see vim)

@Wezl-acautionarytale ???? but why

~ $ tput cols
226

my terminal fits exactly two 100-char wide lines side-by-side on my horizontal monitors

and my vertical monitors fit a little over 100 characters wide

therefore 100 is the best line width

looks at his dual 4k monitors which can hold tons of columns

mine can fit that, but 80 chars is better because it's more established (and you can use a slightly bigger font size)

if you need to zoom u need to get glasses or get closer to the screen

terminals don't really zoom, you just change the font size

is that not zoom lol

I have mine at 11pt

yeah that's what I meant

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ no, because terminals don't have some absolute font size defined like (e.g.) HTML does, so there'd be no 100% zoom point

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ for zooming, the application still thinks the terminal is a specific width

@Wezl-acautionarytale ah, that makes sense

@pxeger what cursed terminals don't??

actual zooming in terminals is probably always a bad idea

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ I mean standardly; you configure your font size

ah. i don't know what terminals would make a distinction between changing the font size and ctrl + changing the font size

none, although ctrl++ or ctrl+- normally changes it temporarily compared to actually reconfiguring it

ya i consider that the same thing lol

I step away to do some linalg homework, and return to all this fighting over line lengths, honestly :P

Besides, y'all are thinking about this the wrong way: if your code is ever close to 80 bytes long, it's too long

nuke pls

@cairdcoinheringaahing close meaning within what?

Idk, around 80 bytes or longer :P

My hobby: purposely interpreting what people say as what it means :P

Guess you can't do that here, given that none of us "say" anything - it's all text

@cairdcoinheringaahing Enables text-to-speech

@cairdcoinheringaahing I know when I am defeated. *kneels*

@AaroneousMiller Ah but then I didn't say it, your tts software did :P

hey, tts software is people too

Is there any golfier way to do the cartesian product of the same list several times in Jelly? I've got ẋŒp

@pxeger cartesian power?

yeah that's what I mean

I couldn't find it because I didn't know that name for it

ah

@RedwolfPrograms that case is more readable than squashing it onto one line. You can easily spot the pattern. Besides, the reason it takes >80 columns is because it's bad code

Oh interesting, there's been two major Ammonium Nitrate explosions in Texas

That's what was confusing me, I knew there was a major one, but I wasn't exactly sure how it both happened in 1947 and in recent memory

@RedwolfPrograms That's more than anywhere else in the world

In fact, the only two major AN explosions in the US were in TX

In all of the Americas, actually

Bows and accepts award for two horrific tragedies in the same geographic location

@RedwolfPrograms And you call yourself a code golfer?? /s

I'm kidding of course

My lines are an equal mix of three and four hundred characters

Not three hundred and four hundred, three, and four hundred

@Wezl-acautionarytale I don't hate linters. I never use them. :P

I just hate linters that don't work

Okay, I need some JavaScript/CSS help please :P

Ooh

I can help!

Probably

@DLosc Step 1: Stop using JS and start using a sensible language :P

Use the disabled attribute, first of all

runBtn.disabled = true;
setTimeout(() => {
    var result = runHBL(code, codeFormat, args, debug);
    resultArea.value = result;
    runBtn.disabled = false;
}, 0);

is what I have for JS

then you can use #runBtn:disabled { background-color: /*different*/ } for CSS

@DLosc This looks good, what's the problem with it?

I'd put some async in there if possible

.button:disabled, .button[disabled] {
    cursor: wait;
    background-color: #aaa;
}

is what I'm trying for CSS

but it only updates the background color, not the cursor type

Is wait a valid cursor on your machine?

Yes. Is it not generally applicable?

I'd actually prefer a regular arrow cursor, but I couldn't find it in the list of possible values for the cursor property

initial

default?

You might have a more specific cursor somewhere

@RedwolfPrograms Thanks CSS, very intuitive :P

@RedwolfPrograms I do:

.button {
    cursor: pointer;
    border: solid;
    border-width: 1px;
    border-color: #444;
    margin: 0px 4px 4px;
    padding: 4px 8px;
    text-align: center;
    font-size: 16px;
    font-weight: bold;
}

@DLosc initial is allowed for most properties, actually

@DLosc .button should be less specific than .button:disabled, .button[disabled], so that shouldn't override it

@DLosc If initial works but wait doesn't, it's an issue with the wait cursor. Try it on a random div somewhere

@RedwolfPrograms It doesn't. Same lack of cursor change.

Oh

The cursor does, however, change if I also change the font-family.

I have to go to class now though, sorry

@DLosc that sounds like a bug or a platform-specific idiocy

are you using a mac?

(it has a lot of platform-specific idocies)

@pxeger Windows 10

And Chrome

huh

Oh wow--whatever I did, Firefox really doesn't like it. The Run button isn't working at all.

does console have errors?

Ach, I see what it is. FF isn't smart enough to realize that I've only changed the query string when I do history.pushState with an absolute URL, so it blocks the operation. :/

@DLosc For the run button on the Vyxal interpreter, clicking it adds the fa-spin class that makes it do its spinning animation, and it disables the run button by just saying "Do the stuff that run button is supposed to do iff it doesn't have the fa-spin class"

@DLosc I'd call that cautious, not "not smart enough". URL parsing bugs are a horrible way to get a uXSS

Okay, it looks like the cursor not changing is Chrome-specific.

Or maybe I should say Chromium-specific. Edge does the same thing.

@AaroneousMiller I thought about that too, but setting the button to disabled and using the :disabled CSS selector feels like the "right" way to do it. (Also, I think it was still having the same error when I was using a .disabled class, though I can't say for sure that I did everything exactly the same.)

lol imagine coding the "right" way. This post made by code golf gang

Nah, you gotta code your interpreters the "right" way so the horrible coding shortcuts you build into your golfing language work the way they're supposed to.

Looks nervously at failed Vyxal cleanup

Don't say "failed," say "incomplete." There's always time to clean up more. Rolls eyes in general direction of Pip interpreter

No, we tried to clean up Vyxal's code and structure, and it caused a lot of fires and pretty much every part of Vyxal broke, so we rolled back to before the cleanup, and instead decided to rewrite Vyxal from scratch, which we just finished a few days ago

Ah, I see. Didn't realize the cleanup and the rewrite were two different things.

@DLosc Yeah, the failed cleanup prompted the rewrite

that's why the two sites are running 2.4.1 and 2.6. The cleanup was 2.5, which went really badly

the cleanup also prompted us to make a version of Vyxal that is guaranteed to be completely free of bugs: github.com/Vyxal/Vyxal/tree/no-bugs

@AaroneousMiller Legend says Vyxal 2.5 exists in the same alternate universe as Windows 9 :P

yeah basically vyxal started out as a project of lyxal's and as more people started participating and adding things on eventually it just got too disorganized and when we tried to clean it up everything just completely exploded

Exactly

Man our first code clean up was an absolute mess and went extremely horribly

See, that's why I implement all my languages by myself /hj

so we decided to take a step back from the code and look at the whole project and realize we needed to reorganize the whole thing to handle this many contributors working on it, and i think lyxal did a good job recognizing that it wasn't working anymore because of how much it'd grown and getting a good structure down so we could all work together instead of blowing things up because nobody's on the same page xD

> The code clean up made everything a big mess. That isn't anyone's fault. The code just wasn't suited to such a big change. It's more my fault for not organising it properly. I'm sorry for the confusion and miscommunications that happened during the whole process - it all went so fast, and I barely have any experience with managing a somewhat large scale project.

from the readme during the second rewrite

Basically we just don't talk about any version related to 2.5 :p

@NewPosts I dunno.... I'm tempted to say no on this one.

inb4 MATL has a builtin

@NewPosts What's the point of doing a maths degree if you don't get the write questions based on what you learn? :P

Also, my linalg homework had a whole bunch of "is this a basis of this vector space?" questions, so :P

I wonder if Sympy has a built-in for that

wait by "output whether or not B forms a basis for v" do you just mean "is there exactly one linear combination of vectors in B that equals v"?

ah seems that is what you mean

i'm used to seeing "is B a basis for <vector space>" not a vector lol

@RedwolfPrograms remind me never to let you touch the vyxal repo :p

@DLosc have you tried using jquery?

@lyxal you changed the avatars of almost all.

@cairdcoinheringaahing lmao yeah i saw this and immediately went "hm. i feel like somebody has been doing too much linalg"

and wow what a shocker, octave is good. i should see howj ulia can do it

Ooh nice, I'm one upvote away from repcapping for the first time since September :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing wdym?

nice

Uni has definitely taken a hit on my activity here :P

lol no one upvote caird for the next 44 minutes ;p

@Fmbalbuena "repcapping" means hitting the daily reputation cap - you can only earn a max of 200 rep from votes and edits each day. I've earned 190 rep today, so am one upvote away from that cap. I haven't hit it since Sep 1st, mainly cause uni has taken up a lot of my time

ok

@lyxal But then how else will I become an additional 1/150th Legendary-er? :P

CMQ: What does flatten mean?

@pxeger your site (jht.xyz don't work)?

why do you always ask those as 'chat mini questions' or whatever? just ask "does anybody know what flatten means?"

they're not quizzes or mini golfs or anything

@Fmbalbuena convert something like [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]] to [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

sorry i understand what does CMQ: mean

also there's something to be said for googling your question, like this

ok thx @Rɪᴋᴇʀ

ɪdᴋ

@lyxal How to join lang jam?

I think you go to the discord server and find a team

I don't really know lol

i want to make team single.

@lyxal oh sorry i mean add a lang to lang ham.

@Fmbalbuena i don't think that's meant to be a site

the JHT site is mine, and it's at jht.hyper-neutrino.xyz

@Fmbalbuena did you read the readme? link

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ yes but i don't undestand

> Each team will submit a PR that will create a directory named after their language which includes the project source code, build instructions, documentation, and any presentation about the language ... the PR for each project needs to be submitted before the end of the jam.

oh mean jelly hyper neutrino

JHT is "jelly hypertraining", and hyperneutrino invented it iirc

if you want to find a group they have a discord. otherwise you just make a language and submit it, read the whole readme

oh sorry

no, jelly hyper-training was invented for me, not by me :P

it was created by Erik and Kenny when I was first learning jelly

ah, cool

erik left during the monica events, right?

yes

hyper-neutrino ⯁ [λ] Fake mod message

??

leaky user site in cgcc?

i only named the site JHT because i couldn't think of anything better really and JHT is immediately recognizable as resource for jelly, and learning it specifically

leaky nun is a user on this site yes (same person as 'kenny', changed username)

xcoder is inactive now too right? or just doesn't join chat much

but uhh site?

I have no idea what you're asking

^

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ I don't think they're active on either; they've been around both here and JHT every now and then but not very active

rip :/

like xcoder

i've seen leaky here a few times too but quite occasionally IIRC (maybe I just am not there when they show up), but not in JHT i think

@Fmbalbuena oh are you asking for a profile link for leaky nun? you could just look it up you know that right

wait, are we allowed to output via generators/iterators instead of strings in python? i feel like i've seen it a couple times now but i'ts not on accepted IO methods

context

ok but:

> Calendar Member for 5 years, 11 months Clock Last seen this week

> Last seen this week

yeah kenny is still active

xcoder seems to be sporadically around just like HN said

but why don't join TNB

kenny is literally in this chat right now. he was probably reading this conversation considering 'seen 51 seconds ago'

xcoder just probably is busy or doens't feel like chatting, i'ts not like you're required to be active in chat if you're active on main

ok but so what is the recent message of leaky?

oh actually leaky's been more active lately than i realized. lol mb

@Fmbalbuena there is a tab on the chat profile for that here

hell, dennis is usually at least nominally online in the tio room

you can see it was 2 days ago, but why does it really matter htat much

ok Leaky only post 0-3 messages.

i neither understand where you're getting that from nor why it matters