Woah what happened here?

Someone decided to replicate Van Gogh's work :P

Lyxal was this your doing? Your timing was pretty sus :p

well, the stars are clean now :)

sips the coffee

@RedwolfPrograms I don't star spam TNB

Oh lol every time the starboard is updated the card with "cancel stars" button is cancelled, awesome UX

@RedwolfPrograms Only niche fringe rooms

@lyxal Ik ik

@Bubbler hehe yeah you noticed that too?

was trying to help so :P

@RedwolfPrograms I know it wasn't me because I was too busy hanging washing out lol

Okay, whoever's doing the star spam, it's not cool

and you will get chat banned for it

It's not possible to put a timeout on stars, right?

Nope

Not with RO tools, at least. Mods might have something.

nope, but it is possible to get chat banned, so don't make me have to start kicking those around to prevent star spam.

Well, I don't want to name any names, but Sandbox Posts is looking kinda sus

i will deploy those against non-ROs for 'timeouts' until people get the idea

Whoever is star spamming: do it here if you want

@RedwolfPrograms But you can star stuff even in galleries, frozen rooms, and timeout'd rooms, so I doubt there's much thought put into stopping star spam

@rues D:

Aha, I knew it! You've been exposed, bot!

accidentally injects a memory overflow attack that is successful into @SandboxPosts's calls stack

oooops :)

Ok, so... the star spam has stopped.

ye, pretty sure people want to AVOID being chat banned ;)

Fun idea: anti-sandbox-posts : a bot that posts antonyms of sandbox posts

@lyxal or, in other words, any actual question or puzzle posted to the site :P

@lyxal I would totally upvote a meta proposal for that

I've always wanted an evil twin

@RedwolfPrograms I wonder if OpenAI would approve such an application request

gravelunbox-deletes

ahah

I feel like I might be the evil twin lol

hah, nah, the microsoft scammer/spammer that keeps hammering SE sites and getting beaten hard by the Smoke Detector and reviewers is the 'evil twin' of the people here :P

There should definitely be an RO tool that lets you select a group of messages and decrement their star counts

@RedwolfPrograms and a RO/mod/diamond tool to just totally nuke the starboard, too

And starring should definitely only be allowed when you have write access (so not in galleries or frozen/timeout'd rooms)

Maybe it could be an RO option to choose whether starring is allowed with write access or not

Hey I wonder, could you star a message in a private room if you know the ID?

...

Lemme scrape the request format real quick, then I'll try it if a mod can get me a message id to test on

@RedwolfPrograms Just ask either Thomas or HN to create a private room for you to test :P

Okay, I have a function written and tested to star a message given an ID

Now I just need a mod to either make a private room, or more easily, just find the ID of a message in some non-important private room

Just give Redwolf access to TL, see how that goes :P

Well no the point is I need to not have access to the room :p

If you can star stuff in gallery rooms you're not in, I wouldn't be surprised if you could star stuff in private rooms

I don't wanna ping HN though since I've already asked him do stuff like twice today lol

Hmm, I could try to find the private room me and HN used ages ago, but no guarantees :P

Huh, I don't think private rooms are searchable, even if you have access, unless you're a mod (maybe?)

You might be able to look through all of your sent messages (like I did to find my first TNB message), but that's a lot of work for like no real reason lol

I think Thomas has gone to get food, so he's probably not around either atm

@cairdcoinheringaahing pretty sure they should be searchable if you have access

Oh hey Jo King

Look, a mod!

Do you want to do some science?

Speak of the devil mod

@lyxal Well, I can't be bothered to try to find it to test, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You might've lost access after some time, like what happened with the bakery

wait, what am i doing?

Can you get the message id of a message in a private room? Redowlf wants to try to star it

"59753176" is the last message in the 20th byte

Nope, it 404'd. So I guess you can't.

Makes sense :P

that room's also frozen, let me see grab one from a non-frozen room

@RedwolfPrograms That actually makes sense, since it's message_id/star and not just /star with the ID in the POST body

I love that the mod rooms are so often frozen, cause mods don't get affect by freezes :P

@JoKing No don't worry about it, it being frozen wouldn't have any effect anyway

IIRC the TL was frozen for like 5 years because no one bothered to unfreeze it

lol

No one was bothered by the room card showing up shaded?

Not being a mod, and relying only on some half-remembered comment I saw years ago, I can't say :P

i do get kinda annoyed by having to click "show frozen/deleted rooms" to see it, but not enough to unfreeze it every 14 days

Idea: Rooms that are like anti-galleries where you have write access but not read access

...what would you use those for lol

Exactly, it's pointless and stupid :p

Actually that's sort of just like a suggestion box

@RedwolfPrograms isn't that basically piping to /dev/null?

Or a voting box, or any other box you drop papers in

@ThomasWard I'd imagine mods could still read it

And maybe ROs

but otherwise pointless

Yeah, I never said it was a good idea :p

totally fake challenge: make a write-only program that takes no input and spits out the following: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Ut hendrerit varius convallis. Sed sodales vel nulla nec elementum." And make it so we can't read the program code. :P

because that's basically the idea being discussed now for chat rooms xD

Bubblegum's time to shine :P

@ThomasWard [REDACTED], [REDACTED] bytes: [REDACTED]

@RedwolfPrograms I think that defence works for like 80% of ideas people post here :P

OMG i made Truth machine using only lambdas. @Rɪᴋᴇʀ Said with only lambdas, it's impossible to do real loops but it's wrong.

Try it online!

You can definitely do loops with lambdas

That's the whole basis of lambda calculus

> defence

        \ /
|--|--|--X--|--|--|
        / \

@tjjfvi Well with Python they mean

Where TCO doesn't exist

@tjjfvi yeah but riker said can't make while loops in lambda

Bloody yanks :P

i think i'm making a programming language

This is how to make while loop in lambda

CMQ: is there infinite loop in math?

n = 0
while n != 5:
    print(n)
    n += 1

# becomes

(lambda f: (lambda g: lambda x: f(g(g))(x))(lambda g: lambda x: f(g(g))(x)))(lambda f: lambda n: (lambda x: (lambda y: y))(print(n))(f(n+1) if n != 5 else n))(0)

Ugh why is code block not working

@Fmbalbuena I mean it depends on what you consider math lol

@RedwolfPrograms Full math

@tjjfvi LOOOL

@Bubbler Aw, you beat me

@tjjfvi but don't work with from 1 to 500

due to recursion

@Fmbalbuena Yes, infinite sums

Or any infinite set :P

but using (code for i in __import__("itertools").count(start=0)) is easy task to do infinite loops.

@cairdcoinheringaahing but the code must be finite

@Fmbalbuena There is proof technique called infinite descent where you invoke an impossible infinite loop to prove something is false

Or, just do proof by examples :P

@Bubbler math?

Yes, it is totally math

I mean what formula?

Math is not just formulas

or something to do infinite loop.

@Bubbler That reminds me of my favourite proof. We aim to show that 2^(1/n) is irrational for all integers n > 2. Assume that 2^(1/n) = a/b for integers a and b. Therefore, 2 = a^n/b^n and 2b^n = b^n + b^n = a^n. However, by Fermat's Last Theorem, this must be false. Therefore, no such a, b exist

CMQ: Why my recent edit is declined? edit if you have more than 2000 rep

Complete overkill to use FLT for such a proof :P

@tjjfvi yep, pretty much! :P

@Fmbalbuena You don't actually have an infinite loop, you use the fact that certain kind of infinite loop is impossible (in certain systems)

@Fmbalbuena Edits should aim to make a substantial improvement to the post. That doesn't

@Bubbler my formula is f() = f()

@Fmbalbuena uhhhhm... what did you actually fix? Edits need to be substantial :P

Example :: changes to Example:

How did that even pass the minimum char limit?

Did you add a comment or a bunch of ZWSPs or something?

@RedwolfPrograms wdym?

@Fmbalbuena did you just bold a colon? (and make invisible changes to the table)

@RedwolfPrograms A bunch of whitespace edits in markdown table

@Fmbalbuena not really a substantial edit improvement.

oh sorry, unbold a colon

Especially as there's actually stuff that could be fixed rather than just the colon (tags, removing the unnecessary "Question", etc.)

@JoKing this makes readable. but Why not.

i don't see any changes in readability

i mean, the post was already readable

but WHY was declined?

so removing whitespace and fixing just the 'example' bit there, it's not substantial enough

@Fmbalbuena "The edit does not improve the quality of the post. Changes to the content are unnecessary or make the post more confusing."

@Fmbalbuena Small edits like that bump posts to the homepage and reward reputation for basically no improvement

@Fmbalbuena edits are supposed to be substantial improvements - your edits did not improve readability or improve anything substantially. I'm not a 2k rep level person but I can see the review task and the edits.

@Fmbalbuena It is not an accepted definition of f in math

@Fmbalbuena The default is to decline edits, unless they're substantial improvements

Not to approve them, unless they're bad

Woah that 5 pings with different users in a row

I'm a bit confused due to pings

yep fixed it

#TiredAndGrumpy

if that kid could read, they'd be very upset

@Fmbalbuena the reject reason was this: "The edit does not improve the quality of the post. Changes to the content are unnecessary or make the post more confusing."

by a diamond moderator no less for the site

ok i understand.

edits are supposed to substantially improve readability or improve the post. Unfortunately, whitespace only edits that don't affect markdown rendering aren't significant enough, nor is fixing just the Example: stuff

@Fmbalbuena Ok, edits (especially suggested edits) are supposed to be substantial improvements to a post. That's why there's a 6 char minimum edit - fixing a typo isn't "enough" of an edit. There was nothing wrong with the actual edit (in fact, in the edit I did to the post just now, I included your edit as well), it just wasn't "enough" to warrant an edit

one reason, although probably not the main and definitely not the only, to discourage trivial suggested edits like that is cuz otherwise it'd encourage people to farm rep off of just submitting meaningless tiny edits and that just wastes a lot of time and clutters the front page as well

If you take a look at my edit, I removed other superfluous stuff (like the "Question:") and edited tags etc. so that it wasn't just the minor markdown edit

@Fmbalbuena that uses itertools.count

which is probably using a while loop under the hood

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ yeah itertools is bulit in module

i'm aware lmao

it probably still has a while loop in it

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ i have a question: is using only for i in range(x) and for i in itertools.count(start=0) without any loops, break and continue TC?

@cairdcoinheringaahing Speaking of my edits, that's my 50th edit this quarter (aka since Oct 1st) :P

probably? but thats literally just 'python but you only do while loops in this one way'

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ one way? no thats two ways

the first way is a for loop not a while loop

@Fmbalbuena Yes if it is allowed to exit the program in the middle of the latter

Many TC languages are built with a single global while loop

@Bubbler no breaking.

for i in range(x) is a for loop there, and itertools.count is just a struct with 3 fields, incrementing each time. its just going to be an infinite while loop

oh python doesn't allow you to redefine the iterator does it. then no thats not TC

@Fmbalbuena I mean, you could raise an exception, or call sys.exit()

As you can create infinite for loops, Python with only for (for looping) is probably TC

@Bubbler no breaking or similar

but that's OK

because with lambdas it still can do.

@cairdcoinheringaahing which for loops are infinite? aside from an infinite iterable

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ for (;;) if in javascript...

Try it online!

this is python alan

oh, good catch caird. i'd forgotten that you could do that

Blame (or thank) pxeger, I believe he introduced me to that :P

I thought py3 saves a copy of the iterator at the start or something (I knew py2 did'nt)

@Fmbalbuena Define "similar". Is it ok to write 1/0? Or use caird's construction?

@Bubbler no, but exiting normally is FINE.

@Fmbalbuena And what counts as exiting normally? sys.exit(0)?

if you can call sys.exit it should be okay. pretty sure it's possible to flatten out any nested while loop into a set of conditions and one while loop like that

sys.exit() raises "repl process died unexpectedly: "

Think of things like FRACTRAN. The entire program is a (kind of) sequence of instruction and is conceptually wrapped in a while loop, and is still TC

well. that's because you're doing it in a repl

Only if you use it in a repl

@cairdcoinheringaahing Try it online!

it exits python

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ in repl.it

that's... a repl

but...

don't outputs when "Hi"

@Fmbalbuena that doesn't count imo, since that's abusing a while loop that's done in the c implementation of python (checked)

this does though - lambda x: [x.append(i) or i for i in x], based off caird's reminder

@Fmbalbuena sys.exit() ends python. full stop.

it would double as breaking from an infinite loop since there is no more loop

if you run that from a python file ala python test.py it will just kill the process. on a repl it errors/kills the repl

@Fmbalbuena See this

lynn@the-holodeck:~$ python
Python 2.7.18 (default, Mar  8 2021, 13:02:45)
[GCC 9.3.0] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys; sys.exit()
lynn@the-holodeck:~$

Exits with exit code 0 = exits normally

@Bubbler but in repl.it

It's just an issue of repl.it

try it on your own computer

[Exits]

yeah, caird beat you to it alan

also there's a fixed font button for code format

what is it

Ctrl-K

oh yeah

Doesn't work with replies tho

:59763494 a = [1, 2, 3]

for i in a:
    print(i)
    a.append(i)

oh yeah forgot lmao

um what

replies are done in chat markdown by :<message ID number> so codeblock formatting treats that as just, more code, since you prefix it with four spaces and it does'nt know what to do

@cairdcoinheringaahing welp

that's my bad, i forgot you couldn't do that in replies when i said "there's a fixed font button"

:78439271 the future message

very future

thats gonna be a while chief

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that

@RedwolfPrograms so what if i say that math is 2 + 2 = cake?

yeahhh

it used to, did they change it caird?

@ThomasWard Then that's math :p

Of course, it's not useful math

The closest you can do is to post ":id blah", then edit the original message (to update it) after a message with "id" is posted

ah yeah thats what I meant

@RedwolfPrograms But the universe does not know what a 2 is

what does o/ mean?

So you can make 2, +, and 2 cake if you want

@RedwolfPrograms well it depends entirely on the definition of 'math' lol

@cairdcoinheringaahing If you're extra good, you can just edit it without changing the id, andit'll reply

@AlanBagel Waving hi/bye

@AlanBagel means

welp

o/

hi or bye.

@RedwolfPrograms if you're really trying to bail on the fundamental axiomsof arithmetic then you're not gonna get anywhere

ok so @AlanBagel will go out.

@RedwolfPrograms and what if my math is inverted binary math

(there's a term my current state of mind won't let me remember for those :/)

@ThomasWard We don't talk about that, it's still in timeout for what it did a few years ago

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Yep. You could make 2 + 2 = cake, but you're not gonna get anywhere :p

(we all know my personal math is Absolute Chaos Mathematical Theory(TM) but still)

I'm like 70% sure that's a unit available in my fourth year :P

lol

@cairdcoinheringaahing now, the most useless and insensible math is 2 + 2 = 2

how this happens I don't know :)

TIL YT ads can be livestreams

oh man i still have proofs homework i'm out for now

@ThomasWard Let all numbers equal 2

Anyway, gtg

@ThomasWard set arithmetic where {2} U {2} = {2}, ez

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Oh nice, I submitted my proofs homework earlier :P

(Oh no I said gtg, let the fun misinterpretations begin)

heh

@cairdcoinheringaahing god i love showing injections between random sets. nothing brings me more joy. send help

@RedwolfPrograms gut the goat time?

Injections are fine, surjections are awful

'grab the goo' time?

i like surjections better

I never really got my head around surjections

injections aren't always easy if the function is messy and surjections are groovier

surjective is just image == codomain i htink

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ One of the questions I had was "Prove that Q is a countable set", and the hint they gave us was "Create an injective map, and use that"

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Injective makes sense to me (x = y -> f(x) = f(y)), and bijective is "has an inverse", but surjective just doesn't "click"

doable but annoying until i realized "oh infinity means beeg"

infinity means very beeeg :P

its got to be hilarious for hte TAs grading this

where I just ramble for 3 paragraphs before then having all hte good content at the end. since it's my way of showing my work for proofs

math challenge: prove that 0 / 1 = 0

@ThomasWard The proof follows trivially from the definition

"this is given by the definition of foo" <--- sentence i have written too many times to be a real mathematician (or possibly not enough)

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ My trick for questions I don't know how to answer is to just say the same 3 statements in multiple difference ways :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing when u gotta prove it both ways and its a reversible equation and you just paste your sentences in reverse order

but yeah thats what i do too and it mostly works!

heheh. now prove that 0 / 0 = 1 is false. >:D.

shows self out

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ No joke, a 5 mark question on an assessed bit of analysis homework (worth 5% of the unit) was "Let a_n be a sequence that [blah blah blah - equivalent to the definition of Cauchy sequences]. Prove that a_n is convergent". My answer was "By the definition of Cauchy sequences, a_n is one. Therefore, it's convergent" :P

(more or less, it was slightly better written than that :P)

@cairdcoinheringaahing lol, nice. did you get full credit though for the answer?

@cairdcoinheringaahing i've definitely done something equivalent and gotten both a 0 and a 10/10 on two different occasions on two different homeworks. i blame different TAs

@ThomasWard No idea, it's being marked atm

Yeah, assignments are notorious for their unobservable requirements :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing hah. let me know what you get :P

In fact, knowing my lecturer, it's probably being marked right now, at 1:25am :P

CMQ: Can i make programming language using only lambdas, print, input, itertools.count(start=0), oprerators and ternary for loops?

@cairdcoinheringaahing so you're 5 hours ahead. UKish wherabouts I'm guessing?

or at least a UTC/GMT timezone

Indeed

I'm guessing you're on the East Coast then?

europeans. not based :/

CMQ: why i got this "You are currently suspended from suggesting edits. You will be able to suggest edits again in 7 days. In the meantime, read about how suggested edits are reviewed and visit your edit history."

yeah, EST is 8:27 pm rn

According to 51% of us, we're not europeans :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing yep. Pennsylvania, USA.

not quite the coast, but still Eastern US time

@Fmbalbuena programming language, sure. TC also yes because lambdas (theoretically but not practically, because recursion limits as already mentioned before)

Oh nice. I think that's one of the few northern east coast states I haven't been to

@Fmbalbuena because you got too many suggested edits rejected so the system banned you from doing them for a bit for quality control

looking at this, you've suggested 7 edits from november 12th to now and all of them have been rejected

@hyper-neutrino ok. i still can't edit.

@Fmbalbuena I'm guessing the "read about" bit has a link? try reading the information on that link

@hyper-neutrino afaict from that review stats of users on that last report, 100% of suggested edits from user have been reje... yeah you caught up

@Fmbalbuena yes that's the point

@Fmbalbuena this is status-bydesign - if you have too many rejected edits, then the system will block you or rate limit you from making edits

@hyper-neutrino but i learned how edits work.

Then wait 7 days and start applying that knowledge then

no way around it, it's a system imposed restriction - you need to now wait 7 days before you can suggest edits again

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, rip :/ forgot about that (unironically sucks)

@cairdcoinheringaahing so you ARE in the UK. :P

according to 51% of you what should we call you, British? English? Chaotic?

:P

@Fmbalbuena Take a read of this, and this

@ThomasWard I don't know, I generally don't talk to them :P

lol

nice

so, united kingdomite then.

:)

that makes them sound like a mineral

@cairdcoinheringaahing And also this

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ technically speaking everyone is made up of minerals and/or base elements so...

@ThomasWard i'd argue minerals are made up of base elements so i'm not sure your correction was super helpful :)

but fair enough

i'm personally only made of up of pure carbon. there are no other elements in my body and never shall be

Wow, imagine not being made of pure uranium. It's very nice knowing exactly when I'll have a mid-life crisis :P

it's a hazard of living in california. the fires do that to ya after a while

Plus the heat :P

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ well right now alcohol is part of my body but i digress.

I love california, but holy shit is it hot :P

(yes it's not an 'element' but its an element of human existentence)

it is too hot. it is too hot. it is wayyyyyyy too hot.

@ThomasWard That’s actually one of the most useful assumptions: xkcd.com/704

@ThomasWard Technically speaking, the alcohol is only in the tube that goes through your body, not actually in your body :P

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ well now we need to add a ton of pressure to you then and it'll create diamonds

incorrect. it creates sadness and despair and for some reason, more proofs homework out of nowhere

@cairdcoinheringaahing no, in this case, i broke the bottle by accident and cut my hand and some alcohol got in the cut, therefore there are some alcohol molecules in my bloodstream now.

(guess who just realized they've got more proofs homework. somebody mentioned cauchy and i was like wait. didn't I have to do something with those)

@ThomasWard Oh no! That poor wasted beer :(

@cairdcoinheringaahing there wasn't much left in the bottle of Angry Orchard Hard Apple Cider, just a tiny tiny bit, but meh.

oh wow you can legally drink in the UK can't you caird

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Tbf, Cauchy is one of those people who shows up everywhere

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ I've been legally drinking for ~3 years now :P

Your parents can buy you alcohol once you turn 16 here

ah huh I thought you were my age (19ish). wack

oh, okay you are nevermind

Yeah, I've been buying my own alcohol for the past year or so :P

The history of alcohol laws in the US are some of the most anti-American things I can think of :P

same rules here, and for any cops spying on me, i promise i've had my parents here every time i got wasted 100% god's truth your honor

Prohibition was literally funded by income tax, because the federal government lost all their money from taxing alcohol. Then the laws on increasing the age limit were primarily driven by religious groups. It literally contradicts the whole libertarianism stuff that's unique to the US, and the whole "The US is supposed to be secular" thing

@cairdcoinheringaahing Fringe Christian values being codified into law for everyone (excluding, you know, when in a Christian rite)? Sounds on brand to me

@tjjfvi ok 1. we are NOT having a religious debate here. at all. no. 2. that's also false, any/all religious use of alcohol was allowed, including at least judaism, it was just highly regulated

@cairdcoinheringaahing libertarian is a word that a lot of people like to use when it agrees with their opinions and also when it opposes their opinions. i'm honestly not sure how many people use it correctly myself included

but yeah, it's wack. it's over now though so that's what matters

My favourite way to describe libertarianism is that you aren't a libertarian unless you support gay married couples defending their homegrown marijuana plants with their legally owned guns :P

Which. Life goals :P

isn't weed illegal in the UK

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Re 1: Agreed Re 2: good to know, though I still suspect that that was highly influenced by the Eucharist

@Rɪᴋᴇʀ Sadly, yes

@cairdcoinheringaahing lmao, L. its been legal everywhere i've lived for a while now i think - california for like the last 5 years and judging by how many smoke shops are here, in massachusetts as well

ofc with stipulations but still

It was very fun visiting my grandparents who live in B.C. in Canada (where its been legal for ages) for Christmas, and they proceeded to make an entire tray of pot brownies with all of us in the house :P

I was 14 at the time, and when my grandad offered me a brownie, I didn't really get why it tasted a bit weird :P

a whole brownie? wtf

I think it was half, but I don't really remember :P

yeah half or a quarter sounds more plausible lol

Is it 18 to legally buy it in legalised states?

pretty sure still 21 but it's legal to give to at least 18

(at least in MA. never came up in CA, since I wasn't really both 18 and looking for weed much of last yr)

legislation is so funky across different states though so ymmv. something that came up recently was south dakota (redneckland) supreme court pulling out some BS to fail a weed-legalisation bill on a technically despite the fact it passed already, iirc

I think I remember reading about that. Sees kinda messed up tbh