The Nineteenth Byte

Mayube

15:00

oh. ohhhh

ais523's temporary account

…and that comes out as just 13 bytes, I should have tried it first

Mayube

jeez I'm spending 12 bytes just producing ~(b)(a)

ais523's temporary account

so am I

Mayube

OH

:)

I ran it and it just output a and then it took me a second to realise what had happened

ais523's temporary account

I think that applying the techniques in these two CMCs is sufficient to produce pretty much all my Underload answers at CGCC, normally I try to solve a problem with just those, and if I can't, I don't bother

but, there is more to the language

UMC: add two numbers (in Underload, taken as Church numerals from the stack). (Side note: there isn't an Underload answer to the main-site version of the question yet, so feel free to post your answer once you have it.)

0

A: New users' guides to golfing rules in specific languages

Underload Underload is a stack-based tarpit esolang, which can be a good choice for some problems (especially quines) and a horrible choice for most of the others (but even horrible choices can be fun to golf in!). If you're planning to use it at CGCC, here's what you need to know: The basics CGC...

Mayube

15:09

why is 0 !() and not just !?

ais523's temporary account

because you're replacing a string with n copies of itself

e.g. 4 maps "a" to "aaaa"

so 0 must map "a" to ""

and so you have to push the empty string onto the stack after deleting the string that was there beforehand

Mayube

ah so it has to push an empty value, got it

ais523's temporary account

hmm, the main-site "add two numbers" question requires handling negative numbers, probably that's why there are no Underload answers (because there's no standard way to represent them, that's consistent with the positive numbers in how they react to arithmetic)

Mayube

I'm trying to figure out an underload truth machine. It's deceptively complex

Somewhat ironically the Extended truth machine seems to be much easier in underload than the standard one

ah no, it requires handling negative numbers

and the standard truth machine only allows unary output if the language is incapable of outputting 0 or 1 :(

ais523's temporary account

15:33

I think the trick is to write a program that outputs 0 and exits, and a program that outputs 1 in a loop, and just use the input to choose between them

Mayube

((:(1)S^):^)((0)S)(~)(input)^^^ should do it I think, but it might be golfable

ais523's temporary account

that seems about right; I think it's golfable though

you don't need to use the ~ – you can run the infinite loop of 1s a number of times equal to the input, then print 0 and exit

Mayube

25 bytes: Try it online!

Correction: 24 bytes: Try it online!

ais523's temporary account

it looks like I posted an Underload truth-machine to the main site; advertised as "16 bytes" but I forgot the parens around the outside (as usual) so it's actually 18

when testing my own CMCs I often forgot the parens and wondered why the interpreter was segfaulting

(actually, I don't get why TIO's interpreter segfaults on stack underflow rather than having error handling…)

pxeger

15:56

@pxeger @Mayube @PyGamer0 @thejonymyster the answer is B (I was right)!

Mayube

@pxeger Nice!

thejonymyster

16:21

how abt accelleration and decelleration?

pardon my english i am a native speaker

when is it straight vertical near the top or bottom, if ever

pxeger

dunno, wasn't covered, but based on the analysis in that video I'm gonna guess it's as we hypothesised

thejonymyster

waa

ok

time to experiment

does anyone have a helicopter? i have rope

pxeger

lol

thejonymyster

@PyGamer0 i found the article on desmos about it after searching for one billion years. its actually pretty in depth

does more than i expected

Redwolf Programmed

Aw man, there's already like ten projects named Steganosaurus

I figured it was too creative to be original

And I'm right :/

Mayube

16:40

@RedwolfProgrammed as in a portmenteau of Steganography and Stegosaurus?

Redwolf Programmed

Yep

Mayube

Hiding secret messages in fossils?

Redwolf Programmed

I was working on some steganography related tools earlier because I was bored

And Steganosaurus would be a cool name

Nothing to do with dinosaurs though :p

Mayube

what about just Steganosaur?

Redwolf Programmed

Yep, some with that name too

Aaroneous Miller

16:43

imma be honest, i though Steganosaurus was a portmanteau of Stegosaurus and Rhinoceros, but with some different spelling

Mayube

Stegoceros

Aaroneous Miller

Stegonoceros

Steganosaurus

> the language was deliberately built to make programming painful and difficult (i.e. fun and challenging)

Mayube

@AaroneousMiller I can think of at least 5 languages this refers to

hyper-neutrino

i can think of at most 5 languages this couldn't be referring to /s

ais523's temporary account

most practical languages don't have fun as a design goal

(when they do, we end up with things like Perl – apparently the actual reason barewords can be used as string literals is because it makes polyglots between Perl and poetry easier to write)

hyper-neutrino

16:55

Add++ is the current top voted language for November's LotM - make sure to place your votes in time for next month

2

Aaroneous Miller

17:24

did chat just die for about 5 seconds for anyone else?

Thomas Ward

yup

it blipped

Mayube

I'm being ridiculed by my colleagues because I didn't have an answer to "What's your favourite movie?" :(

Aaroneous Miller

Random question of the day: What's your favorite type of cooking oil for general cooking tasks? e.g. peanut, canola, etc.

Mayube

@AaroneousMiller Olive, it's reasonably cheap and available everywhere

Redwolf Programmed

Yeah, usually olive for me

Sometimes canola, for things where olive doesn't really make sense

Mayube

17:40

when doesn't olive make sense?

deep frying, I guess. Our housemate has a deep fryer and he buys big jugs of vegetable oil

Redwolf Programmed

Oops wrong tab

hyper-neutrino

yeah besides deep frying i think olive oil works for pretty much everything; i think shallow frying with it is fine, you can use it as a salad dressing, as a beverage, etc

Mayube

17:59

I use olive oil for shallow frying

as far as I know there's no reason you can't deep fry with it either, it's just more expensive in large quantities than cheap vegetable oil

Redwolf Programmed

18:41

I hate how much the SO blog is basically just product placement

Although idk, I guess I'm fine with more ways for SE to make money that don't involve anything too harmful

But "A murder mystery: who killed our user experience?" seems like it'd be an interesting discussion of the issues people's experiences with SO or something, not an ad

emanresu A

18:59

@RedwolfProgrammed Yeah, I think the y got the title wrong

ais523's temporary account

is the LYAL over? not sure how much longer I should stay online

Redwolf Programmed

Usually they're 24 hours I think, so that people from all time zones can participate (so you're definitely not expected to stay online thoughout the whole thing :p)

emanresu A

@ais523'stemporaryaccount Vyxal's is almost identical - ‟‟$„„

UMC: (idk how hard/easy this is) Unary to binary.

(You can use any two characters for 1/0)

ais523's temporary account

that's possible, but will be fairly long by golfing standards

you could use a few different characters for the unary in the input: I think : is easiest but ^ and a may also be daoble

unary to Church numeral thus shouldn't be too hard, and Church numeral to binary is definitely possible, but may be quite verbose (Church numeral to decimal has been done, but not in a golfing context as far as I know)

ooh, Church to binary could have some fairly fun algorithms, actually (especially if you can print the digits out in reverse order, although admittedly you probably can't)

the whole field of code golf would have been simplified considerably if people had adopted a little-endian notation, back when base-n numeric notation was first invented

a pity they didn't think that far ahead

this is an obstacle to golfing language design, because little-endian notation works much better in most algorithms, but problems written by humans tend to assume big-endian, and so you have to make tradeoffs between the two endianesses

Aaroneous Miller

19:26

that moment when you write all of the code at once and it works first try

ais523's temporary account

I find that depends a lot on the language

at least in the asm I was working on recently, the big changes sometimes worked first time but sometimes had lots of subtle errors that took ages to fix

Aaroneous Miller

here's a sample: gist.github.com/AMiller42/aa31a990190857694e00c802543e61a6

ais523's temporary account

and oddly, the small changes were the same, they seemed to break things for no obvious reason more often than they really should

Redwolf Programmed

@AaroneousMiller That's some remarkably clean and well written code

Wait a minute, that's precisely what I typed

What's happening, that's the opposite of not what I said

Aaroneous Miller

lol

don't worry, i added some comments to it in the actual project

it doesn't help much

ais523's temporary account

19:31

the "world's fastest fizzbuzz" that I spent months working on, when I was done I deleted all the comments and whitespace and recreated them, in order to make sure they were a) up to date, b) served as a good introduction for people reading the code for the first time, but mostly c) got the code down to under 64KiB so that I could actually post it

pxeger

64KiB!?

ais523's temporary account

it was fastest-code not code-golf

and, well, speed costs bytes

fwiw it's about 17 KiB with no comments and the minimum whitespace needed to compile

but if you submit 17 KiB of asm with no comments, nobody will have a clue how it works

Aaroneous Miller

@ais523'stemporaryaccount *retags all fastest-code questions to code-bowling*

ais523's temporary account

in case you're interested, it's here

actually, I guess I could save a lot by using one-character variable names, but that'd also make it much harder to understand

Aaroneous Miller

dang, 56 GiB/s? u is spood

ais523's temporary account

19:38

it makes me despair for the state of compilers

pxeger

that's faster than a very fast yes

ais523's temporary account

someone in the comments there managed 123GiB/s for yes, which seems about right for me based on my work in the FizzBuzz

(assuming that the length of the string you're printing is a power of 2, at least; y\n is)

the trick you can do with yes but not with FizzBuzz is to map the same physical page of memory into the pipe multiple times; normally this trick is only used for all-zero pages as a fast way to produce large amounts of zeroed memory, but it works for any other pattern whose repeat length is a factor of 4 KiB

for the FizzBuzz I basically had to invent a programming language that I could interpret using SIMD instructions, so that blocks of 32 bytes get calculated in parallel, with each calculation taking 2 clock cycles (actually AMD's Zen 3 microarchitecture can do it in 1, but it gets slowed down to 2 due to being bottlenecked on writing to L2 cache)

pxeger

how do you know all these minutiae?!

ais523's temporary account

I learned them writing the FizzBuzz program

pxeger

obviously lol

how did you learn all these minutiae?!

ais523's temporary account

19:46

actually I think I vaguely knew about the kernel zero page beforehand

but, most of this isn't secret, you can find it with a web search once you've figured out the right questions to ask

Agner Fog's optimisation guide is pretty good if you're looking for a single thing to read, though

it's reverse-engineered internal details for most x86ish processors

not 100% accurate but pretty close

there's also the perf command (Linux-specific, there's probably a Windows equivalent) which lets you see what the processor is doing via collecting statistics on various parts of the internals, it can be a lot of fun

Mayube

for best results we need a FizzBuzz ASIC chip

4

ais523's temporary account

modern processors have a range of performance counters that just count various things happening internally, you can monitor up to four of them at a time

and learn, e.g., how many CPU cycles your program ran for, or how many memory accesses they made, or how many commands ran on execution port 6, etc.

but it's frustrating, because you can only check things that the processor manufacturer thought to measure, and often you have to rely on measurements that don't measure exactly what you want

Mayube

and by "thought to measure" we of course mean "specifically selected to measure to best demonstrate the strengths of the chip whilst avoiding its weaknesses"

ais523's temporary account

quite possibly :-D

although, the reason they provide these things is to allow programmers to figure out what their program is bottlenecked on at the machine-code/microcode level, thus allowing them to work around the flaws of the processor and thus produce better benchmark results

so they have some incentive to be accurate

Redwolf Programmed

20:23

@Mayube How about FizzCoin where whoever prints the most FizzBuzz in 10m gets to write the next block of the chain :p

Mayube

@RedwolfProgrammed Proof of FizzBuzz :P

Redwolf Programmed

Well uh...for my CS class I'm supposed to give a short presentation on RTO tomorrow, so I can show that I'm actually doing work in the class, but it's currently very broken lol

So I guess I'll be busy tonight

Even worse the school flipped the A and B days after the PSAT, so today I was supposed to have CS class today and I'd present on Friday, but now it'll have to be tomorrow

It's not for a grade but I'll look pretty stupid lol

Aaroneous Miller

try:
    0/0
except:
    halt_and_catch_fire()

Redwolf Programmed

I think I'm going to end up basically rewriting RTO's whole back end

It works right now, but it's a big mess

ais523's temporary account

20:39

huh, after looking up encodings for the halt-and-catch-fire instruction (defined as anything that requires at least a power cycle to get the processor back to working order), it seems that 0x0f 0x04 did that on the 286, and the opcode in question is still unused on Intel processors even nowadays

I'm vaguely tempted to try running it on my processor to see what happens (although I expect it'd just immediately SIGILL)

Redwolf Programmed

Keep a fire extinguisher nearby just in case :p

Aaroneous Miller

Pentium F00F bug

The Pentium F00F bug is a design flaw in the majority of Intel Pentium, Pentium MMX, and Pentium OverDrive processors (all in the P5 microarchitecture). Discovered in 1997, it can result in the processor ceasing to function until the computer is physically rebooted. The bug has been circumvented through operating system updates. The name is shorthand for F0 0F C7 C8, the hexadecimal encoding of one offending instruction. More formally, the bug is called the invalid operand with locked CMPXCHG8B instruction bug. == Description == In the x86 architecture, the byte sequence F0 0F C7 C8 represents...

ais523's temporary account

the more famous one is 0xf0 0x0f 0xc7 0xc8, which was also a hard lock on the processor

Aaroneous Miller

ninja'd

ais523's temporary account

although it was possible to fix that one in software via doing really weird things with the interrupt table

(and sandsifter apparently found one in 2017, but it was kept secret for fear it might be used maliciously – I wonder if it's been fixed yet, and when it'll become public)

Mayube

21:11

foof is what we call one of our cats

user

22:26

CMQ: What philosophy do you live by?

AviFS

Damn, I don't know who anyone is!

user

Very deep

Who are you? Who am I? Do you even exist?

AviFS

Wait, now I get it! Grain Ghost = Wheat Wizard. Thanks for the headache, @GrainGhost ; )

Took me longer than it should have.

Redwolf Programmed

Nah, we just elected a new mod in the last few weeks. They're new to the site, none of us had ever heard of them, but they seemed nice.

thejonymyster

oh i dont want to interrupt your cmq but i have a regular q

AviFS

22:31

Yeah... thanks for making me feel better about all this, Redwolf : p

Redwolf Programmed

:p

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Damn. Why is this such an Avi thing to do? I missed the topic, I suggested, of the event, I suggested. Double-bonus jackpot!

Ding ding ding!

I even had a webapp I couldn't wait to advertise for that...

Don't ask me. I'm over it : p

Redwolf Programmed

Oh cool!

lyxal

@AviFS no you're not over it

thejonymyster

if you google "i'm fishing for hats" with quotes, the only result that shows up [besides omitted results] is this SO thread. the quote is located in the comments on the question. is this stack exchange slang? what did they mean by this

lyxal

22:33

@AviFS You're AviFS

thejonymyster

getting over it with avifs

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS LYAL is still going, at least for a couple more hours :P

AviFS

@RedwolfProgrammed Cool in the past tense. I haven't looked at that project in ages. I'd really meant to!

@lyxal You're lyxal

lyxal

@thejonymyster it's a reference to the Christmas bash SE does every year

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster Over the Christmas/New Year period, SE does Winter Bash, where you get hats for doing things

lyxal

22:34

You get "hats" which you can put on your pfp if you achieve certain tasks

thejonymyster

ahh

caird coinheringaahing

It's where the SE baseball cap on my dog comes from, it isn't a real hat I own :P

lyxal

E.g. Posting a question/answer on the 21st of December

Redwolf Programmed

And sometimes you get to play a game as a unicorn and jump over presents but only if you're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic

And you log more play time than anyone else in the world and yet people get more hats than you from cheating scores

user

During galaxy-wide pandemics you get to play Space Invaders but with unicorns and pancaked-flavored rainbows

lyxal

22:35

And you also get to do digital knitting too

thejonymyster

im amazed that the phrase doesnt exist anywhere else though

caird coinheringaahing

Redwolf's still a bit salty about last year's Winter Bash

thejonymyster

no one else has ever fished for hats and admitted it

Redwolf Programmed

@cairdcoinheringaahing Nah, just a tad salty. Reduced sodium.

thejonymyster

also, the hello world in the question itself is pretty cool haha

Redwolf Programmed

22:36

It's how I got such a good high score in the chrome dino game

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfProgrammed The opposite of @user :P

Redwolf Programmed

11141, unfortunately I hit my head on a bird

caird coinheringaahing

Have you ever eaten an entire bowl of salt?

Redwolf Programmed

I almost did that IRL once

Hit my head on a bird, not the salt thing

It was the bird's fault

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, I constantly flush the salt out of my system to be able to consume gallons of salt without dying :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing Unfortunately, I have not, but I'm going to do it tomorrow, wish me luck

thejonymyster

22:38

birds love to fly really close to the front of my car while im driving

damn florida flyers

lyxal

I just don't like birds in general

Redwolf Programmed

I think I'm going to challenge myself to finish RTO by December

thejonymyster

tRy iT Online

lyxal

Reject birds, return to bees

user

???

We are neither birds nor bees

Redwolf Programmed

22:40

We are monke

user

Me ap

thejonymyster

son its time i tought you about the birds or the bees

just one though

or mom will get mad

lyxal

@user bees are snacks

user

@thejonymyster Thought me?

lyxal

Can't eat birds, can eat bees

thejonymyster

22:40

fixed

user

i eat chiken

> tought o.O

Redwolf Programmed

I have eaten many more birds than bees

user

You know, my parents never actually taught me about the birds and the bees

Redwolf Programmed

@RedwolfProgrammed Unlike my grandparents' dog

user

@lyxal I had a friend who ate a bee

lyxal

22:42

@user can you eat bird raw? No. Can you eat bee raw? Yes.

I just taught you

user

Wait what

You can totally eat bird raw

lyxal

Like can you just pick up a live bird and eat it? No.

Redwolf Programmed

I like how the first is more commonly asked than the second

lyxal

Look I'm just acting as an ambassador for r/WeEatBees

Bubbler

> Congratulations! You've earned: matrix (bronze)

thejonymyster

22:44

wheatbees

user

@RedwolfProgrammed It's obviously not based on a true story because the protagonist has a bunch of shirts that all look the same. No real person/bee could tolerate that

Bubbler

I guess it took much longer than expected, but finally

user

@Bubbler 🎉 Congrats!

Redwolf Programmed

Nice!

thejonymyster

\o/ wahoo

Bubbler

22:45

Thanks :)

Redwolf Programmed

Relevant XKCD (not really)

lyxal

@Bubbler 👏👏

@RedwolfProgrammed a better question is is the bee movie based

Redwolf Programmed

That's not a question, it's just prompting a specific response

There are not multiple options

The answer is obvious

user

based

Redwolf Programmed

Of course

lyxal

23:02

@RedwolfProgrammed there's two options: it's based or it isn't.

it's based or it's cringe

CMQ: Most useful value to return when getting the head/tail of an empty list/string?

Redwolf Programmed

Depends on the language, probably either 0 or the empty array

I'd lean toward the empty array in most languages

I was actually considering adding null as a minor data type in Ash, and am still considering it for my next language, for this sort of situation

Wait, is the ping highlight color always green, or is it blue in room with blue message bubbles?

Bubbler

Rooms can have different message colors?

lyxal

some rooms don't have a colour it seems

Redwolf Programmed

They're blue in the sandbox, for example

lyxal

@lyxal but that depends if self pings highlight

which of course they don't

:/

okay yeah they do nvm

that is, ping highlights change depending on the site

Redwolf Programmed

23:16

Someone sandbox ping me pls

lyxal

green in tnb

red on math.stackexchange.com

Redwolf Programmed

Oh neat, never knew that

Also, TIL the ping bubble thing by your pfp is red in the sandbox, not blue like I'd expect

Bubbler

@lyxal 0 for empty list and empty string for empty string

lyxal

Bubbler

But sometimes you want something else, so I'd consider a builtin which takes two args (an object X and a default value Y), and if X is empty then gives Y as the value instead

lyxal

23:20

kinda red in the sandbox

Bubbler

Maybe not much if both 0 and "" are falsy and you have logical or

lyxal

@Bubbler that makes for a fun oneliner in python:

g[0] if len(g) else ("" if type(g) is str else 0)

Bubbler

Nice (you don't need parens there)

user

@lyxal None

lyxal

23:35

@user that's not useful for a golflang which doesn't have None as a type.

user

true

lyxal

That's even worse.

None makes more sense than returning True ;p

user

😡 Your mom see now I have the last laugh

totally owned you there 😈

lyxal

😰 that's not wholesome 100

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