The Nineteenth Byte

3:00 PM

0

Introduction: Although we have a lot of challenges where swapping two items in a list is a subtask, like Single swaps of an array; Swap to Sort an Array; \$n\$ swaps into a nop; etc., we don't have the simple challenge of just swapping two items given a list and two indices. Input: A list with so...

caird coinheringaahing

3:24 PM

I've prepared a 4-byte 05AB1E answer, in case someone wants to find (or beat) it. — Kevin Cruijssen 3 mins ago

I suspect 05AB1E will whoop Jelly's butt in this challenge

Redwolf Programs

Two bytes in Ash

Actually three because of awful I/O design

caird coinheringaahing

7 bytes in Jelly :(

null

Now I know why they hate golfing languages.jpg

Redwolf Programs

Does Jelly not have a remove nth element operator? (I know it doesn't have insert since dyadic is the highest arity it works with)

caird coinheringaahing

Sort of, <index> œP <array> will split the array at the index

Aaroneous Miller

3:36 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing I have 7 bytes in Vyxal, but that's probably a limitation of my smol brain rather than the language.

caird coinheringaahing

Ooh, 5 bytes :D

hyper-neutrino

i feel like there's some super elaborate math trick to allow using the Nth Permutation Of atom

but that'd almost certainly be longer cuz you'd need the length of the list (i think) and it'd definitely take too many bytes to calculate the index

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing time to add it to jam lol

thejonymyster

@null is this "(Now I know why they hate golfing languages).jpg" or "Now I know why they hate (golfing languages.jpg)"

hyper-neutrino

oh you can take indices in reverse

well, I don't think that helps my answer, so I probably can't tie caird anymore :P

null

3:39 PM

@thejonymyster foormer

caird coinheringaahing

Can you golf ,U$ to m0?

null

highly ragequits

hyper-neutrino

nope ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redwolf Programs

Half tempted to temporarily start work on Ash again just to fix the I/O so I can brag about it

caird coinheringaahing

Yay for y being weird :P

Redwolf Programs

3:40 PM

Having to add like ten bytes with 0s and 1s and stuff for getting the right input is really annoying

I love how Wikipedia has a "use in art" section on the page for mold

Not molds as in like injection molding, mold as in the stuff that grows on your food

Aaroneous Miller

why the flipflop doesn't Vyxal have a split on indexes command!?

caird coinheringaahing

> why the flipflop

2

surely the expression for "why doesn't this language have this feature" should be "why the flipbit" :P

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing but the goal is to flipflop some things in an array!

null

>you have to waste byte inverting an input boolean in a challenge

>why the flip

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster I will say, as no one else has, try going through the Sandbox first. You get feedback on the challenge, and it helps find loopholes/exploits that could ruin a challenge before it actually gets posted

The scoring/iteration thing for the iterative quine would likely have been caught and you'd be able to fix it before posting

thejonymyster

3:52 PM

? I did go through sandbox

and discussed with ppl in chat several times

caird coinheringaahing

Then ignore that :P

thejonymyster

gladly :P

caird coinheringaahing

It can be difficult to track what does and doesn't go through the Sandbox tbh

thejonymyster

yeah that thing is huge idk how its manageable

Redwolf Programs

It isn't :p

Speaking of managing the sandbox, I really need to finish the GoR bot...

thejonymyster

3:53 PM

oh wait, maybe we should link back to sandbox in finished posts for posterity

Redwolf Programs

Sometimes people do, in a comment

thejonymyster

ill do that then :)

caird coinheringaahing

I do recommend that, especially for your first few challenges

thejonymyster

next time

DLosc

@thejonymyster Because "is" in that sentence is emphasized. "It is" can only be contracted to "it's" when "is" is de-emphasized (and thus pronounced rapidly, with a reduced vowel).

thejonymyster

3:54 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah that makes sense, ty

@DLosc ohhh that makes sense

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ For some reason I've been using the long URL for the Sandbox in my quick comments script

null

Ads: Help adding more algorithms to esolangs.org/wiki/!@$%25%5E%26*()%2B/Algorithms

I mean this

DLosc

TIL that a user's "last seen" info is still available on their network profile, even though it's been removed from the profile page on individual sites

Redwolf Programs

It's also on the API

caird coinheringaahing

And on the app

Redwolf Programs

4:01 PM

I had a user script that'd re-add last seen but another design change broke it

It shouldn't take more than 10m to fix if y'all want it

caird coinheringaahing

For example, Dennis was last seen on main on Jul 27, 2020

DLosc

I had assumed they removed it because they didn't want others knowing when you were last seen. So it was just because they didn't want it taking up space?

Redwolf Programs

No, it was because they didn't want others knowing when you were last seen

caird coinheringaahing

No, they removed it because of complaints about it being "stalkery"

DLosc

Hmm... mission not accomplished, methinks

caird coinheringaahing

4:02 PM

Nope

Redwolf Programs

They just did a really bad job, and I'm 90% sure the UI people wanted this change and the developers didn't really care and/or disagreed

It was almost universally agreed that Last Seen was useful and necessary

caird coinheringaahing

Tbf, I suspect that if/when the network profiles get a rehaul, last seen will be removed from that too

Redwolf Programs

The backlash was pretty heavy, but SE did their usual policy of completely ignoring that

caird coinheringaahing

They're just focusing on the site specific user pages at the moment

@RedwolfPrograms Not really. If you read through the comments on the announcement, animuson justifies their decision and maintains that it won't be brought back

Just because they didn't undo an unpopular change doesn't mean they ignored the feedback. They just said that "We hear what you're saying. We disagree"

Redwolf Programs

Hmm, I guess so.

DLosc

4:05 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I mean, for my profile the data is a bit meaningless because I click on so many HNQ links. But I do like to check how active somebody is before e.g. suggesting a golf on their answer. I've fallen back on looking at their last activity instead.

Redwolf Programs

Wish they'd stop thinking they were smarter than their community though

caird coinheringaahing

I don't think it was that. It was, from what I gather, more that they'd gotten a lot of complaints about it being "creepy", and the devs/CMs agreed, so removed it in the update

Redwolf Programs

I saw very little defense of last seen being removed by the community

Compared to a very large amount of posts begging for it to be re-added

To quote what I said in one of my answers on the subject:

> I think removing this altogether is a bad idea. In my opinion there's very little that's private about when someone's last been seen on the site

caird coinheringaahing

That's cause they justified it in comments, not posts

Would've been good if they'd included a proper justification in the announcement itself, but I doubt they expected such backlash

Redwolf Programs

I mean, when someone's last seen gives away basically nothing about them, aside from whether they're active. You could in theory use the high precision it currently has to guess timezones, but that's true of activity as well.

caird coinheringaahing

4:09 PM

Holy crap my wifi is bad

So is my autocorrect it would seem :/

Redwolf Programs

I see almost no defense of it in the comments

In fact, I see no defense of it

But a whole bunch of people protesting its removal

caird coinheringaahing

I'll go find the comments, but might take 6-8 years, given my wifi :(

We've actually had quite a few complaints in the past that a "Last seen" indicator public visible is a creepy and intrusive thing to have on a user profile. So I imagine the disappointment will be very 50/50 here. ;) — animuson ♦ Aug 5 at 22:42

Redwolf Programs

Well yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about

"Quite a few" could be fifty or a hundred...out of a site with millions of users

caird coinheringaahing

Loads of people responded to that with something along the lines of:

@animuson You're had complaints that it's visible. But you've not had hurray's from all the users that use this to find out if they should allow a user to make edits or just "nuke" their post now. With this change.. you're getting a lot more of not giving other users a change to fix a mistake, because we can't know that they've not seen our comments. — Unconsidered Aug 5 at 22:45

Redwolf Programs

Making it opt-out and/or reducing the precision to the nearest day would both fix that issue

Without making it much harder to do lots of things

caird coinheringaahing

4:13 PM

Which is complete horse shit IMO. If some people find a feature creepy, either remove the feature, or find a way to make it less creepy. Either is acceptable to me, and I think people who can't handle it being removed are throwing hissy fits over nothing

I found it useful. I still use the app to, rarely, check when a user was last active. But, if I didn't have that, I wouldn't be too put out, just slightly disappointed

> Whether a user finds it useful isn't really relevant when it comes to user privacy.

Redwolf Programs

It's not nothing though...I fairly frequently need to figure out when someone was last active, and that there's more than 100 people who can't handle others knowing the last time they were active sounds a lot more like "complete horse shit IMO"

pxeger

As long as the data are available in the API, any argument about privacy can be shoved where the shine don't sun, because if you were going to use it to stalk someone, you will probably still manage to get it through the API

Redwolf Programs

and removing the whole feature just sounds like an IPS-is-no-longer-on-the-HNQs level overreaction by a dev who probably shouldn't have a say in the matter

I'd maybe understand an opt-out or reduction in precision. I might even support them, depending on how it's implemented. But this was just the worst option out of them all.

caird coinheringaahing

Opt out would've been a better option. But removing it isn't anywhere near as bad as a lot of users were making it out to be

Redwolf Programs

No, but it sets a precedent, and there was also a lot of other useful stuff removed along with it

caird coinheringaahing

4:18 PM

I think the most useful thing that got removed (and not put back) was the calendar?

I would've preferred they kept profile views and removed "people reached" tho

Redwolf Programs

The date the user joined was removed, and not put back until after all of those discussions were had

Which is a very useful piece of information

caird coinheringaahing

But it was put back

They made a mistake, people pointed that out, they fixed it

Redwolf Programs

> not put back until after all of those discussions were had

Wheat Witch

Does anyone know how often Socratic is checked?

caird coinheringaahing

Once a day

Around 3am IIRC

14 mins ago, by Redwolf Programs

Wish they'd stop thinking they were smarter than their community though

Wheat Witch

4:20 PM

Hm. I believe I've should have met the criterion 3 days ago.

DLosc

@WheatWitch Wait. Are you trying to get us to think by asking questions?

Redwolf Programs

@AaronShekey Thank you!!! I noticed this a few minutes ago, the fact that y'all listened to feedback and did this is something I (and it looks like around 150 others) really appreciate! — Redwolf Programs Aug 10 at 19:20

caird coinheringaahing

Exactly. I don't see what your issue with the "Member since" thing is

They removed it. People pointed out it was useful. They acknowledged that. They put it back.

That's exactly how these kind of changes should go

Redwolf Programs

I'm really glad about what they did now

Wheat Witch

@cairdcoinheringaahing UTC?

Redwolf Programs

4:22 PM

At the time we didn't know they were going to do that

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWitch Yeah

Redwolf Programs

So I'm saying that's part of the reason the discussions were making it out to be so bad

Because without either of those features, it's much worse of a problem

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWitch I think there's an SEDE query lying around that calculates how close you are, I'll see if I can find it

hyper-neutrino

isn't it sometimes off? or was that the question count being inaccurate

caird coinheringaahing

data.stackexchange.com/codegolf/query/1211767/…

Yeah, you should've gotten by last Sunday, weird

I reckon, wait until SEDE updates on Sunday, then check again. If you still haven't got it, open an MSE (or CGCC meta) question

pxeger

4:25 PM

far fetched, but maybe SEDE being down broke it?

Wheat Witch

I'll feed the machine some more questions and give it a little time and see what happens.

It is sort of absurd seeing our questions to answers ratio every time I open up SEDE.

caird coinheringaahing

16k to ~135k (from memory) IIRC?

Nope, 13k to 173k

DLosc

While we're talking anomalies, I just realized something: how come I was able to downvote a post when I had 101 rep on Conlang.SE? Did the privilege levels change? Right now it says I need 125 rep before I can downvote.

caird coinheringaahing

Fun fact, we're the 16th highest site by answers on the network

pxeger

@DLosc IIRC beta sites have lower rep thresholds?

caird coinheringaahing

4:29 PM

Nope

pxeger

oh huh

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc What was the post, if you don't mind sharing?

Wheat Witch

I believe code golf doesn't have the highest answer to question ratio.

I believe that award goes to code-golf meta.

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing This one

caird coinheringaahing

Also, interesting that your rep chart doesn't show a -1 downvote event

pxeger

4:31 PM

maybe the frontend thought you downvoted but it just didn't happen?

so yoiur rep was never checked

caird coinheringaahing

Unfortunately, the answer has 3 downvotes, so I'm not even sure if it did log DLosc's or not :/

@DLosc What happens if you try to downvote a question, and what about for another answer?

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'd have to look for something worthy of downvoting, which might take a while. I don't downvote a lot.

caird coinheringaahing

Downvote then undo it if it registers

Wheat Witch

That question is rather silly.

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWitch Entirely due to the Sandbox tho :P

DLosc

4:33 PM

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing I could see ones like I/O defaults and loopholes contributing as well

caird coinheringaahing

We have 4896 non-Sandbox answers, and 8391 total answers

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing I can do that? Somehow I thought I couldn't change the vote unless the user edited their post afterwards.

caird coinheringaahing

You can change for up to 5 minutes

41.7% of our meta answers are to the Sandbox

Wheat Witch

When it comes to that question, I am reminded of a quote I have heard attributed to Wittgenstein: "Some questions are better dissolved than resolved"

caird coinheringaahing

4:36 PM

@pxeger Nope, just realised DLosc has the Critic badge, which is for downvoting

So the system definitely cast the downvote, but for some reason didn't check the rep/privilege

pxeger

well who knows lol

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing Aha. Let me try that

caird coinheringaahing

@IanCampbell Many of our current moderators are non-native English speakers. Baum mit Augen is (at a guess) German, JFF is French and Cody's from Texas. – Adrian Mole 19 hours ago

Huh, election comments don't onebox?

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing Made by "it's not English if you're not from England" gang??

caird coinheringaahing

Well, Adrian is from Glasgow :P

Redwolf Programs

4:41 PM

Maybe Cody's over 200 years old, from back when we were part of spain?

DLosc

> Thanks for the feedback! You need at least 125 reputation to cast a vote, but your feedback has been recorded.

caird coinheringaahing

...

Open a bug report :P

DLosc

Nah, it's not that important. I just realized, "Hey, that's odd," when I was looking at my profile and it said "Next privilege: Vote down." At the time, I just did the usual dv/comment routine without thinking about it.

caird coinheringaahing

4:59 PM

Does anyone remember if it used to be possible to flag a post while doing a LQP review?

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Wave square Task Given an integer \$n\$ with the constraints \$0 < n \ge 9\$, output the corresponding square, that for each row shifts the sequence from \$1\to n\$ by one, overflowing when needed. I/O Input is an integer \$n\$, \$ 0 < n \ge 9\$. Output can be as a returned String, matrix, array ...

Wezl

5:23 PM

Chat CMC in The TNB: kolmogorov-complexity small medium

large

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc Btw, if you want to write up your op-ed on the flag debate for the blog, feel free to. The featured tags should be expiring in a day or two

DLosc

5:42 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sounds good. I've been thinking about whether I want to post the piece as written (focusing on the flag debate) or if I want to rewrite it to focus on proposing a distinction between Code Golf and Language Golf.

The Language Golf concept is what I'm mostly interested in at this point, and I don't want to frame the post as being about flags if that will turn away people who are tired of arguing about flags.

caird coinheringaahing

Maybe frame it as "the flag debate got me thinking about a related concept..."?

Redwolf Programs

I'm wondering if we could maybe try out a language golf challenge. I know it was mostly a hypothetical idea (I think?), but it could be interesting. We'd have to define a whole different set of rules though, on, e.g., flags.

We'd have to be careful to make a distinction between "language golf" and "18 or whatever hole code golf" though

DLosc

5:58 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I'd like to try it. There was some discussion here.

Redwolf Programs

Instead of CWing them we could just have them suggest an edit

Giving a +2 for finding a golf to those seems fine to me

Aaroneous Miller

That doesn't work for users with 1000+ rep, tho

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms I was more concerned about the scenario where Person A does the work of inventing a language but Person B posts the submission to the language golf challenge. Then Person B gets all the rep and Person A doesn't get anything.

I should probably just sandbox a draft Language Golf challenge, shouldn't I? Then we can work out the kinks in the comments.

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, maybe

Jadefalke

Can someone take a quick look at this? pretty simple challenge codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23953/106557

caird coinheringaahing

6:31 PM

@Jadefalke It's a dupe I believe, let me just find the link

Yep, dupe

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing I thought of this as a potential dupe target, but yours is much closer.

Redwolf Programs

6:56 PM

@hyper-neutrino I'm sure you've already said, but why's yuno abandoned?

(At least, according to this answer's header)

Wezl

github.com/hyper-neutrino/yuno

Anush

7:11 PM

@RedwolfPrograms any update?

how can I find comments by bubbler to me in this chat?

emanresu A

7:22 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I use that, yuz plz

Wezl

@Anush chat.stackexchange.com/… ?

Neil

@cairdcoinheringaahing even better, 9th by % answered

pxeger

7:43 PM

@RedwolfPrograms there is a non-abandoned one: github.com/hyper-neutrino/yuno

hyper-neutrino

8:06 PM

oh yeah one of them is officially abandoned because i didn't like it

the "unabandoned" once is unofficially abandoned too cuz i just got bored

Redwolf Programs

Last seen date user script: gist.github.com/RedwolfPrograms/…

Aaroneous Miller

why didn't u just update the one on github?

Redwolf Programs

It's not on GH is it?

Oh it is

Okay here: github.com/RedwolfPrograms/userscripts/raw/main/…

Aaroneous Miller

8:29 PM

:D it works again

Redwolf Programs

Anyone know of a somewhat generic stack based esolang? It should ideally be pretty simple, but turing complete.

emanresu A

Underload

And various TC subsets of Vyxal

Redwolf Programs

9:48 PM

I forgot to mention this earlier but

A bird flew into my classroom, and sat on a desk, then flew away.

Don't ask me how a bird got into the school in the first place

Unrelated String

if you're looking for simple to use but without specialized builtins golfscript might fit the bill so long as supporting floating point numbers is not a concern

versus actually minimal like underload

Redwolf Programs

I'm mostly looking for a minimal one, since I'm planning on making a challenge which involves transpiling a stack based language

Unrelated String

yeah underload would be a very good choice

Redwolf Programs

I love how the subject line of an email I got a while back just reads "SAVINGS. END. SOON." as if the company has been in a long running argument with you and they're saying for the 50th time that savings are about to completely disappear off the face of the earth

Unrelated String

lmao

Unrelated String

10:40 PM

...was trying to find out how old one of my professors is and found out he apparently has some history with apl
which is kind of surprising because i recall at one point we went over a parallel algorithm for compress and when i mentioned that it's the idiomatic way to filter things in apl (because he seemed concerned that it might not seem like a useful example to the class) it didn't seem like he entirely knew what i was talking about