The Nineteenth Byte

00:49

@Bubbler Probably, but that does make it more difficult to consider fixed points/fixed cycles, as they asymptotically approach such points, and rational numbers can be weird to compare within a margin

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: (untitled), Sum of 3 Vectors

emanresu A

Add to unappreciated posts list please

hyper-neutrino

lol, is there even a list anywhere? and is the next blog post ever going to exist even?

emanresu A

Maybe not

Dude coinheringaahing

I'm working on it

Got up to 2018, so only got a bit more to write. Should probably have a final draft during the week, and if a couple of people are willing to proof read it, I might be able to post it on the weekend

@emanresuA Stick it in the blog room, helps me keep track

Bubbler

01:42

@Dudecoinheringaahing One possible method is to extract the common prefix of continued fractions, but its cost would blow up quickly, yeah (and converting back to decimals is another problem)

user

02:04

@Dudecoinheringaahing Btw, how's the history of CGCC going?

Bubbler

@user ^^^^

Browncat Programs

@hyper-neutrino I'm working on a KotH related post

Maybe a two part series

By "working on" I mean "I'm wanting to work on" :p

user

@Bubbler Oh im dumb

emanresu A

02:58

I do love ello, World! programs

exedraj

That's the Australian/NZ version of Hello, World

emanresu A

Well, watch this space

exedraj

how tf can ><> be esoteric when it already is?

emanresu A

Tarpitty

The HW program is:

>v
v>                                                                      x.
>v
v>                                                                                                   x.
>v
v>                                                                                                          x.
>v
v>                                                                                                          x.
>v
v>                                                                                                             x.

Only sliightly cursed riight?

exedraj

The only cursed thing is the README file which I fixed in a PR

emanresu A

03:12

I'm still working on the docs, slow down!

emanresu A

03:31

When you try to use sys.stdout.write in JS

hyper-neutrino

i've tried to use console.log in C++ before

exedraj

@emanresuA merge pr pls

Browncat Programs

04:01

In Java I quite often confuse myself into writing String.out.print

exedraj

welp I've got a Web tech mid-semester exam now

should be fun

and as usual, I'll be TNBing during the exam

because I'm a gamer

Bubbler

Imagine having a course about web

PyGamer0

@exedraj so is it online exam?

exedraj

well we gotta learn html/css/js/xml and about HTTP/routers/internet stuff somehow ;p

John Dvorak

worse, imagine being a certified HTML programmer

exedraj

04:03

@PyGamer0 correct

PyGamer0

@JohnDvorak html doesnt even have loops lol

John Dvorak

CSS is Turing-complete

exedraj

^

Browncat Programs

I had a course about web development. I learned you need a strong framework of normal web between two objects a few inches apart, then concentric rings of stickier silk to catch insects. Location is also really important; you don't want your careful work to go into making a cobweb tbat sits uselessly in a corner.

PyGamer0

the dumbest submission for langjam

John Dvorak

04:06

@BrowncatPrograms excuse me, cobwebs are awesome - especially for confined spaces. A dense sheet in the middle is great for traversal, while vertical strands are pretty much guaranteed to surprise any passing insect. You just have to reel it in... and even if it doesn't get stuck, it's going to bump into more and more strands until you catch up with it.

exedraj

ugh me when I have to wait 8 minutes for exam start

because the lecture (which is online) starts at 2, but the exam starts at 2:15

John Dvorak

Plus it's more resilient to damage. An orb web as you've described is extremely susceptible to damage - break one of the supporting strands and the whole structure collapses. A cobweb has no weak points - only a wide area suppression an sensory effect. Every part can support itself.

And orb webs can work perfectly fine in a corner, too. It even gets you more attachment points so that you don't have to create a single point of failure.

exedraj

ighto here we go

exam time

PyGamer0

05:09

CMC: Print the first 10 natural numbers separated by newlines.

brownie points if the answer is in html

exedraj

can I have a dot after each number?

PyGamer0

nope

hyper-neutrino

define natural number

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino go to 1st standard

in CG&CC-gaming, 2 mins ago, by PyGamer0

@Razetime Python 3.8:

import creditapi as c;import winapi as w;s=w.open_app("store");s.cmd("open", "Minecraft for Windows 10");s.buy(c.pay_amt(s.price));s.download();

@hyper-neutrino or kindergarten

exedraj

@PyGamer0 sad. I was going to use list items

hyper-neutrino

05:15

are you not aware that "natural number" is ambiguous

exedraj

^

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino int > 0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

hyper-neutrino

this is why i always say positive integer / non-negative integer

PyGamer0

21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30

31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40

@hyper-neutrino no

idk bout that lol

hyper-neutrino

some define natural numbers to start at 0, some at 1, hence why i asked

PyGamer0

05:18

@hyper-neutrino oh

for i in range(1,11):print(i)

Jo King

@PyGamer0 who even learns what the definition of a natural number is in kindergarten

PyGamer0

@JoKing well kids count: wan, too, tree, faur, fyv, six, sevan

hyper-neutrino

yes and did you learn the term "natural number" then

PyGamer0

starting from wan not zilo

@hyper-neutrino natulal nambar

no

ok 1st standards (what ever)

Jo King

sure, they learn numbers, but I certainly didn't know they were called "natural numbers" until later

PyGamer0

05:25

@JoKing until first standard

CMC: Output the first ten integers above 0 separated by newlines.

brownie points if its in html

Jo King

@PyGamer0 i don't know what that is either, but I assume it's the year after kindergarten

i still don't think the average six year old can define "natural numbers"

PyGamer0

@JoKing here its like: Pre nursery,LKG (lower kindergarten), UKG, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9(i am here), 10, 11, 12, idk

@JoKing why are we talking about this lol

hyper-neutrino

because you told me to go back to kindergarten for asking a clarifying question

Jo King

it just seemed like a weird timeframe for someone to know a mathematical term

especially as they're more likely to call them "counting numbers" or just positive numbers

Bubbler

05:43

The definition of "natural number" is different across the fields of mathematics. In most parts of number theory 0 is excluded by default, but the theory of proofs uses Peano axioms as one of its bases, which defines "zero is a natural number" in the first line.

Razetime

i heard of natural numbers in 5th grade

PyGamer0

wat

emanresu A

Hoi

Bubbler

I think I heard of the term pretty late in school, at least not until 7th grade

In my language, the translation of the term "natural number" is considered a technical term

PyGamer0

05:59

does chat.stackexchange have an api?

emanresu A

Not that I'm aware of, but you can build chatbots and ask hyper/redwolf nicely to host them.

PyGamer0

@emanresuA i dont want to make a chatbot

emanresu A

What then?

PyGamer0

i want to try to make a native application for windows that connects with this site.

idk if thats possible

hyper-neutrino

you can find chatbot.py somewhere in vyxal se bot; it's a modified version of the file i took from caird's OSP and it has some stuff

Bubbler

06:02

@PyGamer0 That's called a web browser

emanresu A

@PyGamer0 Use an iframe with Electron / nwjs

PyGamer0

@Bubbler why not a chat client?

emanresu A

In other words wrap it in a browser

PyGamer0

@emanresuA actually i would like to do it in python

emanresu A

Sorry, not a chance

I'd reccoment nwjs - It's really simple to use, no JS involved

Bubbler

06:04

@PyGamer0 To my knowledge, Python is simply not recommended for native GUI stuff

PyGamer0

some gui in python; connects with this site and can do the same things that this site can do

hyper-neutrino

honestly it's probably easiest to just code a normal website and then just either use that site or use a userscript to overwrite chat.stackexchange.com with your design

PyGamer0

@Bubbler ok i will do it in C++

emanresu A

All you need is a html file with <iframe src=https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/240/the-nineteenth-byte >, an appropriate package.json file (google how to make one), and nw installed

hyper-neutrino

the point is that chatbot.py contains the endpoints and formats you need to do things like send messages, etc

and then you just need to connect to the socket

Bubbler

06:08

@PyGamer0 To me that's an even worse choice, given what kind of libraries are used here

PyGamer0

@Bubbler why cant i use js from C++

9

Q: How to execute Javascript function in C++

Please tell me, how to include a javascript header file or javascript function in C++ code. The C++ code is written in Linux(UBUNTU)? Although i need to perform the above action only, but let me tell u my purpose of doing it, as i am intending to implement CTI (Computer Telephony Integration) op...

or from python

hyper-neutrino

sounds rather overcomplicated

PyGamer0

cant i do web scraping to get the messages and do something else to send them

similarly i can do the same for replies and stars

and for switching rooms

Bubbler

@PyGamer0 C++ doesn't have a JS engine. Same for Python

PyGamer0

but i dont know how to do guis properly

@Bubbler seleniunm?

13

Q: How to execute a Javascript function in python with selenium

I have a function called 'checkdata(code)' in javascript, which, as you can see, takes an argument called 'code' to run and returns a 15-char string. So, I found out (and tested) how to call no-argument functions in javascript, but my problem is that when I call checkdata(code), I always get a '...

javascript python selenium selenium-webdriver

Bubbler

06:18

@PyGamer0 That's basically running Firefox, just without a window

PyGamer0

@Bubbler uh ok

Bubbler

If you really want Python and GUI, you could try out PyQt

PyGamer0

Client for chat.stackexchange:
- Figure out how to get messages from rooms and display them
- Send messages somehow

Adám

@PyGamer0 That's a solved problem, since we have chat bots :-)

Bubbler

@PyGamer0 and once you overcome the GUI part then the rest shouldn't be too hard, since Vyxal bot already handles them

PyGamer0

06:21

@Bubbler pretty sure there is also an dear-imgui port to python

@Adám yes but not from a bot; from my account?

Bubbler

Well, if you have a specific lib in mind you can always use that instead

@PyGamer0 A bot is simply an account, everything should work the same

PyGamer0

@Bubbler so the hard part is to make the gui

Bubbler

Yes

Especially to make the gui look like what you want

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino difference between chatbot.py and bot.py in VyxalBotSE?

Bubbler

bot.py is a Flask server I think

chatbot.py handles actual interaction with chatrooms

emanresu A

06:28

Search up 'how to remove' on Bing

PyGamer0

@Bubbler for what?

@emanresuA ?

it shows remove virus

and remove IE / chrome

hyper-neutrino

chatbot.py is an API wrapper that I copied from caird and modified a bit for certain things

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino so the flask app in app.py?

also what does CORS( do?

hyper-neutrino

bot.py is a flask server that implements the tasks and calls chatbot.py to send/receive messages, and forwards incoming messages to and receives signals from the webhook server

github's webhooks go to my webhook server which sends a request to my bot server for it to send a message

@PyGamer0 something about enabling cross origin requests so i can make requests from another domain or smth? idk all i know is sometimes my websites break if i don't do that

i probably don't need it here i just do it out of habit

emanresu A

@PyGamer0 That's weird

I have a simple way to determine if anyone here is a bot: (

PyGamer0

06:33

@hyper-neutrino i asked because vyxal's tio also copied it

hyper-neutrino

like, lyxal.pythonanywhere?

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino yes

hyper-neutrino

i wouldn't say copied

it's not like I came up with the line of code CORS(app)

PyGamer0

>  I honestly don't know
I found it in hyper's repo
And I copied it over just in case

^ by @exedraj in 51AC8 Room

hyper-neutrino

lol tf

lyxal you should not place this much trust in me

emanresu A

06:51

@exedraj Btw feel free to have a look at tarfish.

It actually has a file thing now

Just go node run.js [file] inputs

PyGamer0

> Dude, or His/Her/Their Dudeness or Duder or El Duderino

duder? and el duderino?

exedraj

07:16

@hyper-neutrino it was just the session handling stuff

PyGamer0

@exedraj how's your exam going / went?

exedraj

@PyGamer0 it finished 2 hours ago

So I played minecraft once I finished

PyGamer0

@exedraj how did your exam go?

exedraj

Yes

Don't know the mark yet

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Draw constraint system #18762389 code-golf grid array-manipulation Background Page 219 of A New Kind of Science (a book by Shephen Wolfram, the creator of Mathematica) shows an interesting 2D pattern generated by constraints. The relevant section in the book starts at page 210; you can browse oth...

PyGamer0

07:20

is this a bezier curve

i copied the thing from a yt vid

PyGamer0

08:17

Ideas for 51AC8: Vyxal's variables and Clike structs

rak1507

08:32

@PyGamer0 looks like it, cool

Dude coinheringaahing

08:51

@user People keep doing this annoying thing, where they keep interacting with the site and so making more histor :P

pxeger

Historians are so bad at their jobs, like how have you not finished history yet?

ngn

one historian tried to end it but it turned out he was wrong

pxeger

@emanresuA )?

Neil

CMC: Bitwise AND of two floating-point or double-precision (your choice) numbers. e.g. 3.5 AND 1.75 equals 1.5

(in binary, 11.10 AND 01.11 equals 01.10, but I/O must be in decimal or native floating-point or double-precision type)

rak1507

09:11

APL: m×2⊥2∧/⍤(⊥⍣¯1),÷m←1⌊/⍤∨, (I think this works but I'm not 100% sure)

also TIL you can use assignment in tacit functions

I suppose it does make sense, m just gets assigned the rightmost tacit function

what should we do if the number has an infinite number of binary decimal places?

pxeger

presumably the number is given to some limited precision, not as an arbitrary-sized rational

rak1507

yeah fair enough

Adám

> floating-point

emanresu A

09:28

Great, pxeger has an autocomplete...

ngn

09:52

@rak1507 explain? is that a monadic v?

rak1507

@ngn no, dyadic, gcd(1, x)

emanresu A

This is worrying

rak1507

the problem is that only works if it is n/(2^...)

ngn

@rak1507 why not m←⌊/1∨, then?

rak1507

oh true

ngn

10:02

@rak1507 so what is gcd(1,x) in simple words?

rak1507

if x is 9/8, 1 is 8/8, gcd is 1/8

emanresu A

How is APL iinterpreted/transpiled?

ngn

@emanresuA in many ways. dyalog apl is interpreted by an interpreter written in c.

emanresu A

Ok.

Adám

@emanresuA See e.g. apl.wiki/List_of_open-source_array_languages

ngn

10:12

@rak1507 you seem to like ⍤ too much

rak1507

guilty as charged

ngn

what's the point of the other ⍤?

rak1507

∧/2⊥⍣¯1... in a tacit way

ngn

∧/⍤(⊥⍣¯1) -> (∧/⊥⍣¯1)

rak1507

oh...

yep

ngn

10:13

but i still don't understand the gcd trick

rak1507

∧/⍤f -> oops doesn't work -> ∧/⍤(f) -> forget about (∧/f)

@ngn what's the greatest common divisor of 1 and 1.125?

ngn

@rak1507 1/8 ?

rak1507

yep

ngn

so, gcd(a/2^n, b/2^n) is gcd(a,b)/2^n ?

rak1507

yep think so

ngn

10:16

and how does that help solve the challenge?

rak1507

if your number is x/2^n, gcd(1, x) will be 1/2^n, if it isn't, it doesn't work which is why I asked about if it can't be represented finitely

so I'm not sure if it would be counted as valid, probably not

ngn

ah, so it's like isolating the least significant 1bit?

rak1507

yeah, so it can scale up to integers, do the bitwise and, and then scale back down

ngn

i think i get it. thanks.

exedraj

@Adám does that mean that any golfing language with automatic vectorisation of commands is an array language?

rak1507

10:19

it's probably not a valid answer because it needs to be exactly x/2^n but I'm not sure how to do it otherwise

@exedraj hard to define exactly what an array language is (same with any paradigm really) but I'd say there's more to that, vectorisation is probably required so 1 + 1 2 3 = 2 3 4, but it has to 'feel' a bit 'array-y' too

exedraj

@rak1507 so how about something stack based like 05ab1e or Stax?

rak1507

it's tough, maybe?

Bubbler

A stack based lang can be perfectly an arraylang

rak1507

definitely, but are 05ab1e and stax? not sure...

Adám

@exedraj (Plenty of good answers above.)

rak1507

10:24

oh another thing is having booleans be 0 and 1 not False and True... that's something that R doesn't do iirc which makes it less nice

exedraj

I suppose that if numpy can be considered an array language, then golfing languages are fair game

Adám

Array programming

In computer science, array programming refers to solutions which allow the application of operations to an entire set of values at once. Such solutions are commonly used in scientific and engineering settings. Modern programming languages that support array programming (also known as vector or multidimensional languages) have been engineered specifically to generalize operations on scalars to apply transparently to vectors, matrices, and higher-dimensional arrays. These include APL, J, Fortran 90, Mata, MATLAB, Analytica, TK Solver (as lists), Octave, R, Cilk Plus, Julia, Perl Data Language...

pxeger

@NewPosts butter?

emanresu A

Seriously, that adds a comment? I don't want a comment...

PyGamer0

@pxeger what is butter?

exedraj

10:34

@NewPosts who uh vtcd?

emanresu A

Oh oops

I forgot

Should flag?

exedraj

As spam

PyGamer0

is that advertisment?

pxeger

yes

@PyGamer0 it's an in-joke: when the feeds bots post spam, we ask for the message to be "butterised" so it doesn't clog up the transcript, and the messages are moved to another room

emanresu A

Wow, -11! That has to be some sort of record.

They usually only get to ~-8

PyGamer0

10:35

@emanresuA and 404

Dude coinheringaahing

→ 100g of butter added to the mixing bowl, mix with flour

6

emanresu A

Sticks of butter!!!

Sorry, I got confused because I thought it was asking a question.

PyGamer0

also the one who made the question joined today :/

Dude coinheringaahing

Yeah, that's normal

exedraj

If smokey picks it up, then there's a good chance it's spam

PyGamer0

10:37

@Dudecoinheringaahing that too on Politics.stackexhange too

ok imma off to play minecraft

making a 2d lang

emanresu A

@Dudecoinheringaahing Next we need some eggs.

PyGamer0

@Dudecoinheringaahing wow lol

rak1507

lol just noticed the cat ears on the new posts bot

PyGamer0

but not on @SandboxPosts :(

emanresu A

Blame <s>Redwolf</s> Browncat for that

ngn

10:44

does anybody understand the transformation matrix described here?

i want to know what matrix i should use to animate flipping a canvas around its diagonal

pxeger

which diagonal? top-right to bottom-left, or top-left to bottom-right?

ngn

@pxeger the main one: top-left to bottom-right

pxeger

a full reflection is [[0, -1], [-1, 0]]

Bubbler

@ngn [[1-a, a, 0], [a, 1-a, 0], [0, 0, 1]], tween a from 0 to 1

ngn

@pxeger my best attempt

@Bubbler thanks! i'll try that

pxeger

10:52

@ngn that looks right to me

oh but it isn't using a proper transformation, I see

ngn

@pxeger yeah, but it's made by hand, not using the canvas transform, so the characters don't skew while turning

Bubbler

Protip: when in doubt, just solve a system of equations

pxeger

lmao, that was the method I started using too

find all matrices that under which y=-x is invariant

Bubbler

Much easier is to plug in four corners of a square and see what you expect

pxeger

yeah that's simpler lol

emanresu A

11:02

:58961113 This message replies to itself, I think.

:(

Moar quetin ned hlp plaze

board

exedraj

@emanresuA yeh well we're in quarantine too

Yet you don't see me complaining about boredom

emanresu A

but no queeton

exedraj

Tf is queeton

Like I can piece together most misspelling

But genuinely tf is queeton

ngn

much better. thanks @Bubbler and @pxeger

Jo King

@exedraj question?

emanresu A

11:12

Yes

I was typing up a regex

user41805

"Grammar: The grammars of H are more complex than the grammars of L-variety. They have more complex tense systems, gender systems, agreement, syntax than L-variety." (from sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/messeas/diglossia/node3.html) does this mean there is an inherent notion of how complex a language is?

exedraj

@emanresuA Wdym no question?

@emanresuA fun idea: Vyxal parser test case writing

emanresu A

No thanks

I'm not that bored

user41805

my understanding from linguistics.stackexchange.com/q/315 was that it was a cycle, loss of complexity in something (fx. case system) results in gain in complexity in something else (syntax)

emanresu A

The last easily answerable quetin (aside from pxeger's thing, which I've already answered) was caird's 'Collatz Tree' thing, which was five days ago!!!

exedraj

11:14

@emanresuA I figured you'd say that

emanresu A

@exedraj I figured you'd say that

ngn

@user41805 small grammar = simple. big grammar = complex. no? (btw, you were right about vowels in arabic)

exedraj

Then how about brainstorming ways to make vyxal site better?

@emanresuA ^

emanresu A

Ok

exedraj

Good

emanresu A

11:16

Polyfilling lb to work with the CM textareas would be poggers

And actually shouldn't be too hard

exedraj

Do that then and be boredn't

emanresu A

All I have to do is assign the getter of the underlying textarea's value to setting the CM textarea's value...

Wait no it uses keypress events

user41805

@ngn i guess i misunderstood from linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/318 that languages typically have similar grammar complexities, "That's the tradeoff you usually find between an analytic language like English -- where syntax does most of the grammatical work -- and a synthetic one like PIE -- where morphology does the heavy lifting."

@ngn i don't remember, was that about alif being used as a consonant and a vowel?

ngn

@user41805 yep

emanresu A

11:55

Gotta love signal crossbleed.

pxeger

@Dudecoinheringaahing !

emanresu A

12:26

We're no strangers to chatrolling

12 mins ago, 11 minutes total – 60 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 14 secs ago by emanresu A

user

Classic Vyxal

Browncat Programs

12:44

@PyGamer0 The term originated from before we had the bakery, when messages would usually just be edited by a mod to say "i want butter" or similar

Dec 22 '15 at 22:34, by New Sandboxed Posts

HELLO I AM BOT FEED ME BUTTER

May 23 at 23:26, by New Posts

I am bot. I want butter.

(Those are the two most starred ones I could find, the classic example and one of the newer ones)

PyGamer0

HELLO I AM BOT FEED ME COOKIE 🍪

user

in Vyxal, 9 secs ago, by Vyxal Bot

@user Here you go: 🍪

emanresu A

'night y'all. (I hope this throws a parsing error for all the bots here ] { > . '` " \" ?$ <

user

13:05

@emanresuA ???

Dude coinheringaahing

13:45

@pxeger :P

6

exedraj

nobody asked for it, but there's a TNB wikia

11

it's empty because it was only just created (duh)

Browncat Programs

I'll add twenty pages as soon as I get home and it's not blocked :p

exedraj

good

Browncat Programs

Can I do the one on butter?

exedraj

sure

do as many as you like

do you have an existing wikia account?

"fandom"

whatever

same thing

Browncat Programs

13:47

Don't think so

exedraj

the-nineteenth-byte.fandom.com/wiki/Cat_Week

the-nineteenth-byte.fandom.com/wiki/Redwolf_Programs

Browncat Programs

This is actually a pretty cool idea

exedraj

I only added you, caird and myself just to get it started

I intend on documenting the whole nineteenth byte in terms of the current generation of users

As well as any in jokes we have

Dude coinheringaahing

Huh, how'd you find my first day here?

Oh right, "chat user since"

exedraj

I just realised that the day on the chat profile isn't necessarily the day you started TNBing

But it's close enough

@Dudecoinheringaahing correct

Browncat Programs

13:51

It's probably wildly off for me

exedraj

I'd say it's accurate for all intensive purposes

Dude coinheringaahing

Surely "intensive purposes" would require a more precise and accurate date?

exedraj

Is there a SEDE query for first day in TNB?

Also, I'm off to bed for the night

Have fun with the wiki :p

Dude coinheringaahing

@exedraj SEDE doesn't cover chat

Browncat Programs

I believe this is my first message in chat, but it wasn't in TNB

Dude coinheringaahing

13:56

Of course your first chat message is about complicated KOTHs :P

Browncat Programs

Uhh...so apparently at one point I made an awful area 51 proposal for a site called "Facts and Trivia" and spammed the link in a bunch of rooms >:|

We're no strangers to chatrolling

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