The Nineteenth Byte

Let \$A\$ be a square matrix that is at least \$2 \times 2\$ where each element is an integer. \$A^2 = A \times A\$ will then have the same dimensions as \$A\$, and will have integer elements. For example, let $$A = \left[ \begin{matrix} -3 & 2 \\ 0 & -1 \end{matrix} \right]$$ Therefore, $$\beg...

DLosc

9:00 PM

@PyGamer0 Yesssssss!

QBasic is an outdated language that's missing a lot of capability, but I still maintain that it's a really good language for programming beginners.

(Plus, writing programs in white text on a blue background makes you feel so gloriously nerdy)

user

Like in Powershell? :P

DLosc

I mean, it's not the right color of blue, but sure. ;P

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing does the output have to only be integers too?

caird coinheringaahing

@rak1507 You can have floats with .0 after them, but otherwise, yes

> output any n×n integer matrix A such that A^22=B

rak1507

ah yeah

damn :P my method produces float answers :(

caird coinheringaahing

9:07 PM

Was it to take the matrix to the 0.5th power?

rak1507

no

it was using a convergence thing

(2÷⍨⊢+⌹)⍣≡⍨ in APL

wish dyalog extended had a one byte 'half' function

user

⍨

Adám

9:30 PM

@rak1507 I've been contemplating the vocabulary of primitives for a potential BQN-inspired LPA. Since negation and reciprocal are easily achieved with x×¯1 or x-⍨0 and x*¯1 or x÷⍨1, I've been thinking of making monadic +, -, ×, and ÷ into increment, decrement, double, and halve.

Then again, those are of course easy to do in LPA too…

caird coinheringaahing

Is LPA just APL but interpreted left-to-right?

Adám

Almost. Some primitives would need reconsideration.

rak1507

interesting, I feel like outside of maths and golf those operations aren't really all that common, monadic + could definitely be increment as conjugate is definitely a rare operation

Adám

E.g. I don't think x- would be good for negations.

rak1507

I feel like monadic - × and ÷ already have good and useful meanings though

Adám

9:32 PM

Yes, but that's in APL. It doesn't work well in LPA.

caird coinheringaahing

If you reassign monadic -, then you could allow a high-minus to act in a monadic fashion and mean negate

Adám

High minus is part of a literal constant. It isn't a function.

caird coinheringaahing

Does it mean anything on it's own?

Adám

In some APLs it is the literal constant infinity.

caird coinheringaahing

Like, Jelly couldn't let - by itself be a function, as it means -1. But if the actual high minus symbol must be followed with digits to be meaningful, why not overload it as a function?

(I suppose - is a function in Jelly, in that it's a constant function that always returns -1. But still)

Adám

9:35 PM

Hm, I'm trying to think if it would work syntactically.

For one, it would need a space between it and any adjacent digit. I really don't like spaces between tokens altering the meaning. That is one of the things I dislike about J and K.

Still, I would find it very odd to have a postfix negation function.

caird coinheringaahing

Don't think of it as postfix, think of it as "right-to-left prefix" :P

Big brain way of creating a prefix lang, for anyone who doesn't want to do parsing: make a postfix interpreter, but just reverse the source code before interpreting :P

Adám

These are just so nice:
x+ ←→ x+1
x- ←→ x-1
x× ←→ x×2
x÷ ←→ x÷2
n!k and x!

otoh, having postfix named functions (user-defined or from libraries) will take a lot of getting used to, for me at least.

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing "Why is my Hello World program printing !dlroW ,olleH?" :P

Adám

But I suspect it is simply a matter of being used to it. Why are f(x) and f x and x.f() fine, but x f isn't?

user

x f works in Scala under certain circumstances, actually

Guess it's a matter of tradition

caird coinheringaahing

9:45 PM

I'm definitely more of a fan of Jelly's infix + postfix style, but that's probably because I use it the most

I hate that you can't easily define your own infix functions in Python tho

user

Being able to define your own operators is amazing, but it gets annoying in languages where you have to remember the precedence for each new operator. Don't get me wrong, it can be super useful in DSLs to set your own precedence, but having to look at the docs just to see how something is parsed is annoying

That's one thing that's nice about APL, although the right-associativeness takes some getting used to

Adám

So many things become better with left-associative everything-has-the-same-precedence.

user

^

Adám

It means you can read the algorithm in reading order. No need to look ahead (unless there's a paren, but those should be avoided other than for trivial things anyway).

hyper-neutrino

it also makes writing the parser easier :P

Adám

9:50 PM

It means that the evaluation progresses in a predictable way. RtL makes for some funky jumping around if you have multiple consecutive inline multi-line functions.

user

Stack-based languages are kinda like that, although it gets annoying when you want to look at the bigger structure and you can't tell where the condition for the if statement began

Adám

Yeah, I don't like stack based languages, because they separate the data acted upon from what is acting upon them. Infix with pre/post-fix keeps things adjacent.

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Here :)

caird coinheringaahing

> easily

I want to be able to do 5 ? 4 :P

user

? might become a reserved thingy soon to represent ignored values

caird coinheringaahing

9:56 PM

I think |'?'| is a "valid" infix function by that method tho :P

@user Yeah, valueless variables IIRC

Like for index, ? in enumerate(array)

user

tio.run/…

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh dear

rak1507

sounds like you'd like haskell tio.run/##y0gszk7Nyfn/PzcxM0/…

caird coinheringaahing

@cairdcoinheringaahing Nope, can't redefine | on strings :/

@rak1507 Haskell looks interesting, but it's slightly too functional for me :P

rak1507

do you prefer your languages to be dysfunctional? :P

caird coinheringaahing

I use Python, so... :P

user

9:59 PM

Yes, she uses Jelly

rak1507

haskell is easy, so imperative tio.run/##y0gszk7Nyfn/PzcxM0/…

basically python

caird coinheringaahing

@rak1507 I use Python, Jelly and my languages, and I speak English. Can it be more obvious that I like dysfunctional languages? :P

rak1507

lol

haskell is easy if you just read the types, but until then it seems impossible

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, I've read about Monads, so I'm kind of scared of Haskell :P

I like Jelly monads, not Haskell monads. Category theory is whack

rak1507

madhadron.com/posts/2013-12-05-email-about_monads.html

wiki.haskell.org/Monad_laws

caird coinheringaahing

10:03 PM

> which we will denote \wedge

My dude, there is all of unicode to choose from. This is the worst option :P

rak1507

does it not render as ∧ ?

user

@rak1507 That's not imperative enough for me :P

caird coinheringaahing

No

rak1507

oh

user

Look guys, it's Java!

rak1507

10:04 PM

lmao

caird coinheringaahing

> Monads are no scarier than trees or DAGs or maps

I don't like trees, DAGs or maps :P

user

> Monads are made way scarier than they are
> a∧b=b∧a

Math is scary

caird coinheringaahing

Anything more complicated than a bit accumulator is too complicated :P

user

I just think of monads as boxes even though they're apparently "computational contexts" or something fancy like that

Whenever I see someone say that (->) r has a Monad instance, I just close my eyes

hyper-neutrino

Reminder that Community Ads close tomorrow, including new ads, edits, votes, etc, so if you have anything you'd like to finalize or vote on, make sure to do that soon!

rak1507

10:08 PM

@user lol

user

Hi Redwolf, you just missed a discussion about Haskell and monads

rak1507

(>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
((->) r a) -> (a -> (->) r b) -> ((->) r b)
(r -> a) -> (a -> (r -> b)) -> (r -> b)
(r -> a) -> (a -> r -> b) -> r -> b
(>>=) x y z = y (x z) z

@user happy?

user

Terrified

Arrows everywhere

rak1507

tio.run/…

(g>>=f) x = (f x) `g` x -- haskell
(f g ⊢) x = (f x) g x       ⍝ apl

user

S combinator but backwards, cool (well, not backwards, but x(yz)z)

rak1507

10:15 PM

yea, slightly different

Unrelated String

@user i was surprised until i remembered that there's also an Applicative instance which i attempt to abuse regularly

rak1507

f<*>g ?

user

@UnrelatedString You know what they say: The best way to learn something is to abuse it

caird coinheringaahing

10:32 PM

@user ~~time to learn children~~

user

Ma grandpaw used to say, "The best way tuh learn one of them brats is to whup 'em till they listen to ya"

My grandpaw's in jail now

caird coinheringaahing

@user For tax evasion, the child whupping is unrelated :P

user

(that's a joke btw)

@cairdcoinheringaahing It's a shame how they Grandpaw Al on stupid taxes :P

tmw the SVMs and random forests and extra trees classifiers take 5 minutes and still perform worse than the logistic regression model that takes less than a minute

caird coinheringaahing

10:59 PM

@user Think you're missing a verb there :P

Bubbler

@user Add a few layers of neural networks and you must get a much better model than a single logistic regression :P

lyxal

@user ighto, you tell me when

user

@Bubbler imgflip.com/i/5iawy9 :P

caird coinheringaahing

@user Use the image link instead :P

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Um, I hereby dub "Grandpaw" a verb :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ah, thanks

caird coinheringaahing

11:04 PM

@user "to grandfather" already is: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandfather

user

Huh, interesting

@lyxal The next time Redwolf's in TNB

AviFS

Have people seen this?

github.com/langjam/langjam

rak1507

yeah like 57 times :P

caird coinheringaahing

7 hours ago, by pxeger

9 hours ago, by pxeger

Announcement: Langjam, a weekend-long code jam event to create a programming language, starting on August 20th

AviFS

Oh, haha

user

11:06 PM

Yup, I made a room if anyone wants to join

AviFS

Wait sorry, lol

user

@rak1507 You got a photographic memory or smth? :P

AviFS

Who made it? Was it @pxeger?

rak1507

@user not quite :P

it's decent though

caird coinheringaahing

github.com/orgs/langjam/people

ಠ_ಠ

github.com/langjam/langjam/graphs/contributors I don't see pxeger

AviFS

11:08 PM

Oh, I didn't know you could do that!

Do we know anyone?

user

Someone else needs to watch that repo :P

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Wait, I just came up with one:

ಠoಠ

Or

~~ಠOಠ~~

Ehhh...

user

It looks like the mouth is between the eyes there

AviFS

Yeah

caird coinheringaahing

esolangs.org/wiki/%E0%B2%A0_%E0%B2%A0

AviFS

11:10 PM

No way!! That's really funny

I like this for some reason

ಠ/ಠ

Not sure why

caird coinheringaahing

I quite like this one (sorry for the large image):

AviFS

Hahaha, true

caird coinheringaahing

Feel the disapproval stare you down :P

AviFS

Oh no, it was such a friendly face before

Now I can't unsee it

I've finally decided to screw it with rewriting everything into JS. I'm thinking of setting up a server thing

Has anyone done it before or have any thoughts?

caird coinheringaahing

Biggest pet peeve: showing the trailer of a movie just before you're about to watch that movie ಠ_ಠ

lyxal

11:17 PM

@AviFS that's a very sensible choice :p

user

Mine is when the trailer is nothing like the movie itself

caird coinheringaahing

I try to avoid watching trailers as much as I can

Either it'll tell me nothing new about the movie, or it'll spoil it

user

tbh the plot summary often spoils or misrepresents the movie anyway

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh really?

user

But I have to read the plot summary before watching a movie because then I might end up watching some random romcom

lyxal

11:19 PM

What are you going to do now caird?

Look at all these trailers you have to avoid looking at

caird coinheringaahing

→ 1 message moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

lyxal

:p

user

Oh dear, caird can no longer watch "Southern USA"

lyxal

Aw dang

caird coinheringaahing

Let me just pull a pro gamer move :P

user

11:20 PM

I think you accidentally moved that :P

caird coinheringaahing

Damn, y'all keep ruining the movie for me :P

@user I'm not going to abuse my RO powers more :P

hyper-neutrino

time for me to do a pro gamer move

user

Oh no

caird coinheringaahing

Uh oh, TNB's about to get nuked :P

user

Wait, nothing happened

lyxal

11:23 PM

Just before hyper kills us all, where's this month's lotm post?

user

12

A: Nominations for Language of the Month, 2021 edition

K K is a member of APL-family languages, originally created by Arthur Whitney. Arthur's K has many versions; the latest version as of June 2021 is Shakti (also commonly called K9), which is still under development. While official K versions were made for commercial purposes, multiple open-source ...

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler You ok to write it up?

lyxal

Ha

That's funny

> you (o)k to write it up

user

@hyper-neutrino What did you do?

@lyxal There's a k called oK afaik

lyxal

That's even funnier

caird coinheringaahing

11:25 PM

It's oK IIRC

user

Yes, that's exactly what I said :P

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing Cool, but what's it called

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Who's on third?

lyxal

Sure

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Joe

Bubbler

11:30 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh right, totally forgot it. Will post shortly

AviFS

Sorry lost internet connection.

Anyone know anything about setting up a server?

I'm not even sure what to look up; I keep getting web hosting stuff

user

Try PythonAnywhere, it's what Vyxal uses and it's pretty nice. lyxal probably knows more

AviFS

True, but that's just Python

Bubbler

@AviFS I think you mean running your own server machine at home or something?

AviFS

Although if I could only choose one lang, it'd def be that

@Bubbler Idk, I thought I meant letting someone else run a server machine

Eg. what does TIO use?

Bubbler

11:33 PM

IIRC TIO uses DigitalOcean

AviFS

It must be renting computational whatever from some org?

Bubbler

Yes, and it costs some money

caird coinheringaahing

> TIO is powered by . Their virtual private servers are affordable, fast, scalable, and (most importantly) professionally managed.

If you're looking for a VPS and decide to rent one from DigitalOcean, you can sign up by clicking the link above. You'll get $100 in DO credit for using my referral link and, as soon as you spend the minimum amount on their products, I'll get $25 credit myself to help cover my server costs.

From tio.run/# (click the logo in the search page)

AviFS

Ooh, thanks!

But yeah, if it looks too pricey, I might use my own computer as a server.

What do I look up to figure out how to do that?

user

Wait, you can turn PCs into servers?

AviFS

11:37 PM

I think so, there's no reason you can't through eg ssh/tmux

user

Huh, never really thought about it

AviFS

@Bubbler I was thinking that maybe there'd be some where you give credit card info up front, but they only charge you if you use >X cpu/ram per month

Bubbler

Yeah, there are tutorials about building your own server machine at home, though it takes more effort than you may think and may not be possible depending on your ISP (internet service provider)

AviFS

For instance, there's a translating service (DeepL) where the first 50,000 words every month via their API are free

Bubbler

Also there are some services that can host your server application on GitHub (or other public repos) for free up to certain amount of traffic or computation time

e.g. Netlify

AviFS

11:41 PM

@Bubbler That's exactly what I was thinking, thanks!

Yeah, I haven't yet had to pay for translations

And I won't so long as I don't translate more than 50k/month

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Wait, is someone still paying for TIO then?

caird coinheringaahing

Dyalog is still contributing IIRC

user

Ah

Bubbler

GitHub Pages is easier to set up (obvious because it's part of GitHub) but only allows static page applications

caird coinheringaahing

in talk.tryitonline.net, Jun 6 '18 at 7:23, by Adám

@Dennis Dyalog's CEO approved a USD 500 yearly donation to TIO.

in talk.tryitonline.net, Jun 6 '18 at 13:42, by Dennis

@Adám Wow! That's almost covers TIO's entire operational cost. o_O

AviFS

11:45 PM

@Bubbler Yeah, that I have for like all my repos

But I'm spending wayyy to much time translating everything into js these days

Or figuring out how to compile it into js

Redwolf Programs

The easy solution is to just put malware on your site that injects your interpreter onto the user's computer and runs it

3

Bubbler

Lol yeah, literally everything compiles to JS these days but it's actually far from easy to use them for webpages

AviFS

@Bubbler Really? Mind saying more

What makes it hard to use for webpages?

Redwolf Programs

You can compile a lot of languages to WebAssembly (Wasm)

AviFS

I'd rather you say it was easy to do and that I was just doing it wrong

True, do you guys think it is a sustainable way to do it?

Bubbler

11:50 PM

Because using in a webpage means making a whole lot of frontend JS-Wasm bridge if it compiles to Wasm, or frontend JS-whateverlang bridge or it directly compiles to JS

and not having them automated means almost unusable

AviFS

What if you don't touch the compiled files very often?

Bubbler

I don't get what you mean

AviFS

I mainly just want to reuse a lot of existing FOSS interpreters for what I'm doing

So I'd compile them, and hide them in folder somewhere

And then in principle I could just keep doing it with GH pages, statically

Redwolf Programs

What's this for?

Bubbler

You still need to code some kind of bridge yourself in order to call the interpreter function from your page

AviFS

11:53 PM

@RedwolfPrograms It's a surprise for a tad longer

caird coinheringaahing

@user @lyxal Redwolf's here, deploy the chickens :P

AviFS

@Bubbler You can't compile to wasm with a simple front-facing main?

caird coinheringaahing

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, I'm 7 mins late, i don't care :P

Bubbler

@AviFS Also if the interpreter uses stdin/stdout/command-line args, you need to basically rewrite the interpreter into a function that takes and returns strings instead

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh, is this the unveiling of their plans for the hivemind to invest in the chicken and two doored car industry?

AviFS

11:56 PM

@Bubbler Ouchy...

It's not that bad for one, but I can see how it would quickly get out of hand

Especially since eg 05ab1e is written in elixir, which... I know less well than others

Redwolf Programs

Are you trying to make an online interpreter?

Bubbler

@AviFS So I'm googol% sure that your plan is far from trivial :P

lyxal

@user do you want to do it or shall I?

New Posts

0

Q: Language of the Month for August 2021: K

In accordance with our meta agreement, since one candidate received more votes than the others, we have a new featured language! Throughout August 2021, our Language of the Month will be: K What's a Language of the Month? See the meta post for nominations. In short, during August, those who wis...

discussion language-of-the-month

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