The Nineteenth Byte

Razetime

06:00

i recommedn tf2 for improving 3d aim

hyper-neutrino

is there any reason to use tf2 to improve aim over just playing the game itself and getting good

is tf2 simpler and therefore more aim heavy or smth like that

Razetime

honestly any quakelike is great for aim

cause it makes you go to weird places at high speeds and shoot accurately from those weird place to stay alive

tf2 is a lot less forgiving with its buffs and its playerbase is scary dedicated

hyper-neutrino

(moving to gaming room)

AviFS

06:16

Guys, does TIO ever output as it's running?

hyper-neutrino

no

AviFS

Or does it only ever output when done

Ah, so then I can't do what I was hoping anyway

Unless....

hyper-neutrino

it only runs once it's done, whether that's normally, via 60s termination, via output size terminatino, or via requested cancellation

AviFS

mischeivous grin

I run a bunch of parallel requests...

And I cancel each one at .1 second intervals, hehehehe

But that'd be wayyy evil

Poor Dennis' pocket

But srsly, why doesn't it?

hyper-neutrino

probably to avoid the need for websockets?

idrk

AviFS

06:18

@pxeger ATO better stream output as it goes

pxeger

that's coming in 0.2.0 ;)

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino Wow, that's an exhaustive list!!

impressed

@pxeger yayyy!

wasif

if TIO outputted result while writing code it would be a great misery

pxeger

why?

AviFS

haha, nooo

while running

instead of waiting until it's done

wasif

06:19

oh you meant while running?

AviFS

yeah, haha

is there some rep where it stops having a timer on sending too many messages?

wasif

poor me I thought output will be resulted while writing code

@AviFS no

AviFS

not a bad idea :P

hyper-neutrino

nope, I hit it even as a mod

wasif

mods often complain about this (ninja'd)

AviFS

06:20

NOOOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOOOO

but i can spam so easily even with the timer...

smh

wasif

???

where is the spam

AviFS

ouch... i just got 8 seconds. i must be talking a lot

Adám

@AviFS Please don't post noise.

wasif

can message interval be adjusted by ROs?

pxeger

use the sandbox if you want to post noise

@wasif doubt it

DLosc

06:23

I wasn't even aware there was a timeout for posting too quickly--I've never run into it. What you need to do is put all of your thoughts in one message. That way you can type a lot of stuff, but because it's all one message, you won't get limited. :P

Adám

@wasif No.

AviFS

@Adám Ouch, I really wasn't trying to... Just joking about the spam timer

Adám

@DLosc It can be a problem if you want to post formatted text interspersed with code blocks.

pxeger

I sometimes get a spam timer if I try to edit a message several times in quick succession

but that's it

wasif

is spam timer 8 seconds?

DLosc

06:24

Maybe I'm just naturally slow :)

AviFS

@DLosc I think I better get in the habit; I do take up a big portion of the wall when I talk due to the layout. I got used to chat interfaces where you're encouraged to keep sending; quickly in small chunks

I used to type paragraphs and I'd get avalanched. By the time I sent, conversation moved on

wasif

it is interesting that sandbox chat has an APL execution bot

AviFS

Or friends would get impatient waiting. I suppose hitting 'return' when I'd otherwise hit a period has become a habit, (initially just one to stay above water) which I can try and work on for here

hyper-neutrino

@wasif yeah i never took it out of that room cuz testing

Adám

@hyper-neutrino I think it should stay there too.

AviFS

06:27

@pxeger Yeah, that's the worst for perfectionism...

pxeger

lol

hyper-neutrino

agreed, better than spamming the orchard

Adám

Exactly.

wasif

yeah

are there any list of available online interpreters of APL

DLosc

@AviFS My writing speed

Adám

06:28

@wasif apl.wiki/Running_APL

AviFS

Spoken like a proper Snoopy avatar

wasif

@Adám ok

AviFS

@Adám Also this is still the primary source of social interaction for some of us, haha. I was under the impression that off-topic was okay until on-topic came up, no? I do realize spam/noise is always bad ofc, but it felt more like having fun/off-topic to me, personally.

⍤/ Hey Jo King

(Perhaps there's tension between those of us who use TNB for socializing and those who'd prefer it stay more on topic and not amass messages unnecessarily? Or is that inaccurate/not the point?)

hyper-neutrino

well there's still a difference between off-topic socialization and noise

Jo King

i do my part by lurking

3

AviFS

06:37

We can agree on that. I just didn't feel like that was noise.

And often lots of what other people say feels like noise, haha

But I guess I don't really say anything unless they're interfering with something I feel is more on topic

Happy to start a new room though for more aimless, and occasionally on-topic, chatting? And then come here when it feels like something more people should see. Would that be a useful addition, or just more cruft?

Adám

I suspect that such a room would quickly die out.

AviFS

I sort of do, too, which is why I asked first. Might be worth a shot, though.

We can also revive The Tarpit, where we chatted a lot last summer when TNB was super inactive

wasif

07:03

@AviFS sandbox chat

In Trash room you can theoretically continue off topic discussions

hyper-neutrino

if there are off-topic discussions that are clutter here but not straight up noise, i will be happy to migrate them to a separate room to continue

A username

Hi

hyper-neutrino

e.g. i have migrated many conversations here to like, the discussion about redwolf's synesthesia, gaming, sandbox, etc. but if it's just noise i will just send it to the bakery

AviFS

Why's it called the bakery, btw?

A username

@hyper-neutrino Or the timeout corner

hyper-neutrino

07:08

@AviFS there's been a long running joke about bots and butter - i'm not sure why or when it started, but mods editing bot messages to include butter has been a recurring joke

A username

10 hours ago, by A username

@rak1507 Ok, yjsnkd, fkoixed.

hyper-neutrino

so when i edited a "messages moved" message to "butter" i also edited the room link to say "The Nineteenth Bakery" (cuz it's also "TNB") and then we decided to rename the trash room to that

A username

I do not look at my leopard when typing.

hyper-neutrino

> leopard

A username

See what I mean?

Honestly, that was intentional, but it was too perfect to miss.

AviFS

07:10

@hyper-neutrino That's pretty good!

Though not as good as TNB: The 19th Butter

hyper-neutrino

nah, that doesn't work as well

you can move sticks of butter to a bakery

AviFS

I suppose

Bytter?

A username

Nah

AviFS

:P

Anush

08:05

CMC find the median of 5 integers in any language without a built in sort function

Adám

@Anush Define "sort function".

@Anush dupe?

hyper-neutrino

is grade considered a built-in sort function?

lyxal

Last time, the answer was yes

Adám

@Anush You probably mean "without using a built in sort function", but it is easy to read your task as requiring a language that doesn't have a sort function.

Anush

@Adám no because this restricts the language

Adám

08:09

Oh, so you do mean the latter. OK :-)

Anush

@Adám a function that sorts?

Adám

@Anush What about a function that grades?

I.e. finds the permutation that would sort.

Anush

@Adám the latter :)

@Adám are there any languages like that?

hyper-neutrino

APL

APL doesn't have a sort function, does it? only a grade up / down

Adám

J

K

Anush

08:10

All has no sort function???

Adám

@hyper-neutrino Mainstream APLs don't.

hyper-neutrino

since grade -> sort is trivial but sort -> grade isn't really a thing

ah, okay

Adám

Extended Dyalog APL, dzaima/APL, and BQN have sorting functions.

Anush

CMQ which languages have no built in sort function?

hyper-neutrino

just open TIO and look at like half the recreational languages :)

Adám

08:12

Most esolangs, probably.

Anush

C,C++…

Adám

@Anush Those are recreational languages, right?

Anush

Ok

A grade function seems tricky for rules. I hope not many languages have this

Adám

Generally, do-x-without-y challenges are problematic, unless restricted to a single (family of) programming languages (which itself is problematic).

Anush

@Adám isn’t that a little different?

this restricts the language choice only

wasif

08:15

def f(l):
for i,x in enumerate(zip(l,l[1:])):
x,y=x
if x>y:
l[i],l[i+1]=l[i+1],l[i]
i=(len(l)-1)/2
if len(l)%2:
return l[i]
else:
return (l[i]+l[i+1])/2

Try it online!

Anush

@wasif I like it!

wasif

Bubble sort, then calculate median

Adám

@wasif Did you intend to answer something else than that?

Anush

But python would be banned

wasif

@Adám yes

sorry pinged the wrong CMC

Anush

08:16

Python has a built in sort

Adám

@Anush Exactly: "do median-of-5-ints without languages-with-builtin-sort".

Anush

@Adám you think that’s not good?

hyper-neutrino

if python were allowed, def f(a):exec('a.remove(%s(a));'*4%(('min','max')*2));return a[0]

Adám

@Anush The problem is consistently to define the set of forbidden things. People tend to make assumptions about programming languages based on the languages they know, and make up rules that are too vague for many other languages they don't know.

Anush

I code in python and don’t understand it!
Ok. Let’s test the current restriction

Adám

08:19

@Anush Are APL-family languages allowed?

Anush

@Adám only the ones without a sort function

Adám

@hyper-neutrino No need to remove both min and max. Just remove min twice, then take the min.

hyper-neutrino

oh, nice

Adám

@Anush How about a sort-by function?

Anush

What is the %s doing?

hyper-neutrino

08:22

substituting in the min / max with format-string operator

to exec instead of looping which would take more bytes

Anush

@Adám does apl have sort by but not sort?

Adám

@Anush No, but J does.

hyper-neutrino

as adam points out, def f(a):exec('a.remove(min(a));'*2);return min(a)

Anush

@Adám crazy :)

hyper-neutrino

lambda a:exec('a.remove(min(a));'*2)or min(a) works too

Adám

08:24

@Anush Not really, as f~ applies a 2-argument function on a single argument, using that argument twice, so f~ is sort if f is sort-by, so why add a separate sort function.

Anush

Can anyone do it in C?

Adám

APL, 6 bytes: ⊢⊃⍨3⊃⍋ Try it online!

⊢ from the argument ⊃⍨ pick 3⊃⍋ the third-smallest.

Anush

CMC find median of 5 ints in C

This chat is a pain on an iPad

Adám

@Anush So the J solution is 2{/:~

Anush

@Adám cool

Adám

08:27

2{ element 2 from /: sort-by ~ self

Anush

Let’s restrict to languages without sort or sort by

Adám

OK, then my best is the 6-byter APL function above.

Anush

The point is to exercise the brain :)

@Adám cool

hyper-neutrino

what about a language with a built-in that checks if a list is sorted, just as a hypothetical

Adám

Nice one.

Anush

08:29

@hyper-neutrino I guess that would be ok

If slow :)

Adám

So then you can random-permute until sorted :-)

hyper-neutrino

lol

Anush

@Adám :)

Adám

CMC: Implement BogoSort.

Anush

What do you think about a challenge that excludes sort and sort by languages?W

hyper-neutrino

08:31

VTC as unclear because of unobservable requirements

Anush

Would anyone here downvote?

Adám

Same.

Anush

Booo

Adám

@Anush I wouldn't downvote, just VTC.

Anush

@Adám even worse!

@hyper-neutrino why unobservable?.

Adám

08:32

@hyper-neutrino Did you comment on Anush's idea, or my CMC?

Anush

How about a challenge just for C then?

hyper-neutrino

anush

@Adám Jelly: ¹Ẋß$ṢƑ?

ironically, uses the "sort" built-in to check if the list is sorted

Anush

You are forcing me to C :)

Adám

@Anush You'd have to inspect the code to see how it works.

@Anush codegolf.stackexchange.com/tags/c/info

hyper-neutrino

¹Ẋß$ṢƑ?  Main Link
      ?  If the list
     Ƒ   is the same when
    Ṣ    sorted
¹        return it
         otherwise
 Ẋ       shuffle it
  ß      and recurse

Anush

08:33

@Adám downvote?

@Adám just the language not the code

Adám

@Anush CMC: Given a programming language, determine if it has any built-in sort or sort-by function.

> Note that challenges that require the answers to be in a specific language are generally discouraged.

hyper-neutrino

to avoid the sort built-in, Ẋß$¹>2\S$?

Adám

@hyper-neutrino VTC + answer… shame on you! :-P

Anush

@Adám so how can I do this? I just want to make the exercise interesting and non trivial

hyper-neutrino

Ẋß$¹>2\S$?  Main Link
         ?  If
       S    the sum of
    >2\     whether or not the first item is greater than the second for each (overlapping) pair
Ẋ           shuffle
 ß          and recurse
   ¹        otherwise it's sorted so just return the list itself

Adám

08:36

@Anush The eternal codegolf challenge writer's dilemma.

Anush

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/c

Lots of votes

hyper-neutrino

@Adám i was replying to anush with the vtc :p

this is a cmc, it doesn't really need to be that well specified

oh wait Ẋß$¹>ƝS$? works since Ɲ is a shortcut for 2\

Adám

5 mins ago, by hyper-neutrino

anush

@Anush Which one are you looking at?

hyper-neutrino

@Adám should've sent that as a reply lol

*I should've

Adám

@hyper-neutrino Huh, you're a mod. Why didn't you edit your msg?

Anush

08:40

: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/196333/…

3 votes :)

hyper-neutrino

@Adám ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ avoid the re-ping, I guess

Adám

@Anush That's a tips question.

Anush

13

Q: Compare two integers in C or C++ without comparison operators

Produce the shortest program which takes two signed integers as input (through stdin or as arguments) and displays 3 different outputs depending upon whether the first number is (1) greater than, (2) smaller than, or (3) equal to the second number. The Catch You cannot use any of the following ...

Adám

@hyper-neutrino For the record, I don't mind.

Anush

More votes

hyper-neutrino

08:41

note how these questions are all old

Adám

^

hyper-neutrino

just because a question is highly voted doesn't mean that type of challenge is good especially if it's old

code-trolling used to be prominent until we banished it

Adám

Challenges about a specific programming language are fine. Challenges for a specific programming language, not so much.

Anush

But I am old too!

Adám

Older than me?

Anush

08:43

:) no idea

Adám

I just turned 36.

Anush

We need a zero knowledge proof

Adám

@Anush Of my age?

Anush

@Adám of whose age is bigger

PyGamer0

CMC: Implement counting sort

Adám

08:47

PyGamer0

@pxeger how about a TIO-like colorscheme for ATO

pxeger

eww no

PyGamer0

ability to chage fonts?

pxeger

I'm working on font consistency

PyGamer0

@pxeger current colorscheme is too blue (for me)

pxeger

08:56

too bad

TIO colour scheme is far too grey for me

sorry lol

you can use a userscript if you like

Adám

@PyGamer0 It is fairly easy to remove the colour. Much harder to add it.

PyGamer0

ok

wait @pxeger syntax highlighting for only comments?

or autoindent

Adám

@PyGamer0 Userscript: document.body.style="filter:grayscale(1)"

pxeger

good idea

PyGamer0

@Adám thanks

Adám

08:59

@pxeger How are you doing sandboxing?

pxeger

bwrap

+ cgroups for resource limits

+ some custom C to implement 60s timeout

PyGamer0

@pxeger so syntax highlighting or / and autoindent?

pxeger

Combination of using lots of weird languages + abusing lots of weird syntax for golfing would make that more of a curse than a blessing I think

You can always write in your own editor and copy-and-paste it there if you like

Adám

@pxeger Let me know if you want to add APL, and I'll get you a free license for perpetual updates.

PyGamer0

ok

pxeger

09:05

@Adám would require some fiddling around to add, because the whole system is based on the assumption that everything is open-source and I would have to add at the very least some mechanism to conceal the licence key

Adám

@pxeger No, Dyalog license keys are not a secret.

pxeger

(or is there no licence key and/or do licences only work on a legal basis?)

Anush

@Adám I would delete that image

Adám

@Anush Why? Nothing secret there.

Anush

@Adám id fraud etc

But hello Denmark!

Adám

09:09

My full name, place of birth, and photo are already available online. The validity of my passport isn't especially interesting.

Anush

I am surprised you were allowed to wear glasses in the photo

@Adám why??

Adám

@Anush My might notice my face is tilted down. This it to avoid reflections. Without glasses, I get this dead look (since I can barely see then).

@Anush I've seen enough dishonesty in my life. Either I show my true face, or I don't participate.

Anush

@Adám some countries don't allow glasses in passport photos

Adám

@Anush Some countries don't allow glasses in their passport photos. Important difference.

Anush

?

Oh I see

No one did my CMC in C :(

Adám

09:13

Maybe programming in C isn't fun.

pxeger

heresy!

Adám

I'm just speculating.

Razetime

Programming in C++ isn't very fun

C is fine

Adám

But C is just C++--, no?

Anush

@Razetime then there is my CMC in C :)

pxeger

09:14

C++ is a read-only language in the same way Perl is write-only

Razetime

where would APL go in that spectrum

@Anush link

EliteDaMyth

++--C--++

pxeger

@Razetime Ask Adám; I'm sure he'll give you an entirely unbiased answer :þ

Adám

Production code tends to be easier to read than golf code, no matter which language you write in.

Razetime

@EliteDaMyth lvalue rwquired

EliteDaMyth

09:17

@Adám can you show some APL production code

Adám

@EliteDaMyth This is used by TryAPL.org

EliteDaMyth

to be completely honest, isnt very readable

i could probably read a language like rust or something which i dont know, and still understand it

hyper-neutrino

> ⎕TKILL kid ⍝ Kill the assassin

who's employing kids as assassins??

pxeger

lol

Anush

@Razetime it's the CMC. given 5 ints return the median.

Razetime

09:20

uh ok

lemme try

Adám

@hyper-neutrino :-) "Kill ID"

Anush

@Razetime thanks!

Adám

@EliteDaMyth My father taught me that one should be able to reconstruct code from its comments. See example.

EliteDaMyth

im assuming not everyone writes comments

Adám

If you neither write comments, nor use meaningful names, then it'll be hard to read your code no matter which language it is written in.

Anush

09:24

@EliteDaMyth those are naughty people

Adám

One might think they understand, but they are actually just reading unimportant built-in words. That doesn't tell you what the code does, only how it does it.

A nice think about purely symbolic languages like APL/J/K is that your eyes are drawn to the programmer's identifiers rather than the language built-ins. Those are the words that set this code apart from any other generic code.

A username

09:47

@Adám No offence, but you look slightly evil in that photo

Compared to your avatar

Razetime

> The only program which stands a chance of being correct is a short one.

-Arthur Whitney

possibly at the time of the quote, he had not seen golfed perl

pxeger

lol

A username

Tip for golfing anything: Generate random programs until you find one that works!

pxeger

if you have a programming language that achieves sufficiently high entropy, that would actually work

A username

I mean, it might work in Unary, if you're doing something extremely simple...

Anush

09:59

@Razetime any luck?

New Posts

0

Q: What's your favorite video about code golfing?

I know someone has asked this before but he has -2 votes so I aim to ask it again in a way that will be more clear. What is your favorite video which either has code golfing as a main subject or features it extensively in one of its parts? (A programmer showing their most clever golf, or a video ...

discussion code-golf

A username

10:13

Pet peeve: When someone goes textarea.style.backgroundColor = rgb(1,2,3)

Note the lack of quotes

Razetime

@Anush no

Anush

@Razetime :( that's why it needs to be a challenge!

But I am told it would be closed :(

Razetime

yes most likely

unless you have existing code you'd like to improve

which would be more suited to code review rather than a tips question

Anush

10:30

Is codereview popular?

I have never used it

Razetime

codereview is good

Anush

Does anyone have an editor that makes it easy to rename a variable?

Razetime

vscode has "change all occurrences"

Adám

@Ausername I've done that for APL on multiple occasions.

Razetime

in vim you just visual select the results of a find operation

Adám

10:36

1 hour ago, by Adám

@Anush My might notice my face is tilted down. This it to avoid reflections. Without glasses, I get this dead look (since I can barely see then).

A username

@Adám But have you done that to create a program that does it for you because you've forgotten what the original task is?

Adám

@Ausername No, and I'm not really sure how that could work. I just run all possible programs against some test cases…

Anush

@Razetime cool. I was trying to get Emacs to do it

@Razetime if the variable is called t that could be a pain

Razetime

regex search

ngn

@Anush there's a flag to make vim ask you to confirm each replacement (the c in :%s/\<t\>/whatever/gc)

Anush

10:52

@ngn cool. I was more hoping for something that knew what was a variable and what wasn't

I assume that must exist

ngn

@Anush that's complicated and language-specific

Anush

@ngn yes but editors often have language specific modes

Neil

@hyper-neutrino I'm almost the reverse of you, only 2 good questions but 20 good answers... mind you, that's a question hit rate of ~28.57% and an answer hit rate of ~0.48%

Razetime

@Anush JetBrains IDEs have this

ngn

@Anush for python, there used to be a library called "bicycle repair man" that could do such refactorings and could integrate with vim

Razetime

10:54

and visual studio

Anush

@Razetime nice

@Razetime cool

Razetime

but those are very heavyweight and i really do not enjoy programming on them

Anush

@ngn interesting. I think Emacs has a mode for this for python but it needs melpa which for some reason doesn't work for me

Razetime

they have really specific refactoring mode and bloat that isn't always needed

Anush

I wonder if vim has something

Eg github.com/abingham/traad

(for Emacs)

@ngn great name!

Last updated in 2003???

pypi.org/project/bicyclerepair/#history

Sandbox Posts

11:08

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Find all paths Information Given a non-negative non-zero odd integer (let's call it \$n\$), find the number of all possible paths which covers all squares and get from the start to end on a grid. The grid is of size \$n\$. The start of the path is the top left corner and the end is the bottom ri...

PyGamer0

@SandboxPosts any feedback?

Razetime

how come emacs lets you code in butterflies but has no refactoring extension for python

smh

Anush

@Razetime I think there are refactoring options for Emacs

The median of 3 ints is easier and still fun

CMQ which languages need at least 12 bytes to compute the median of 3 integers?

C,C++,assembly... Any others?

ngn

@Anush yes :) it was named after the monty python sketch

Adám

@Anush Whitespace. BF.

pxeger

11:22

Python

I'd imagine

ngn

@Anush basic (probably)

Anush

@ngn that's 4

Java?

pxeger

Zsh: <<<${${(n)@}[2]}

Anush

@Adám two more

pxeger

there ought to be a shorter way to get the second element of an array in a scalar substitution, but I don't think there is

ngn

11:25

@Anush java can't even do a nop program in 12 bytes :)

A username

@ngn /*12345678*/

pxeger

that will error because no class is defined

ngn

@Ausername where's public static void main and the class around it?

A username

Oh nvm

A username

11:39

> prepending was a bit of a sussy baka, so I ejected it and got a new crewmate instead. (btw it still does prepend)

(Quoting Lyxal)

Transcript for