The Nineteenth Byte

caird coinheringaahing

03:00

I added the code golf tag

hyper-neutrino

yeah, I forgot about that

Redwolf Programs

And my vision for how collectives work is basically just tags with a few new features.

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms even if they did like... it's yet another one of those things that's like "maybe you should've asked the community first??" ...

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino I believe it means that they have "word of god" over what is and isn't correct. A lot of SO questions fall victim to the idea that the answerer may not actually know the answer but has just found something that works. Between this and the Outdated Answers feature, it seems as the SO is working towards improving the accuracy and correctness of their answers

lyxal

So how does one go about making a new collective?

Redwolf Programs

03:01

I totally support SO making money. I just wish they'd ask us first and work with the community to find better ways to do it.

lyxal

Can we as average users make collectives?

caird coinheringaahing

Unfortunately, being a recently sold company, they have corporate overlords to answer to, so they've spun it in a way to make money

@lyxal Have money

hyper-neutrino

when I initially saw it I thought it was like codidact's categories but without actually dividing them into separate locations and just grouping questions belonging to one category together, but didn't expect it to actually fundamentally change the way SO works

Redwolf Programs

@lyxal If you are the kind of average user who runs a major programming language :p

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, that's definitely true

lyxal

03:02

@RedwolfPrograms one day that might be true

:p

hyper-neutrino

I think the ability for a corporation to mark an answer about something they created as "this is an actual good solution and not just some stupid hack" is a good thing, and I mentioned this in the codidact server discussion too, but like

caird coinheringaahing

I believe the current answer is "You don't, this is a trial", and they're working on expanding that out to more clients. But ultimately, this isn't something users create, it's something we'll use

hyper-neutrino

it's a major change and even if I personally think it's good, or at least alright, I would hope it'd be discussed first

caird coinheringaahing

I do wish they'd at least announced it before beginning it

hyper-neutrino

like even if they don't disclose details on it due to corporate interests (which always sounds sketchy, but I don't understand enough legal things), at least like announce the upcoming things and get a bit of feedback on maybe potential issues or if it'll be absolutely hated and rejected

if we asked a CM about it they'd probably tell us "I just found out a few hours ago too" - I've been noticing recently that even CMs don't seem to find out about these things and the users and mods of the sites themselves are just kinda left wondering what'll happen at any time :/

caird coinheringaahing

03:04

Pretty much every major change recently has been "We're going to start doing X beginning from Y. Feedback?" This is a rare (but not rare enough) example of them saying "As of today, X is live"

Redwolf Programs

Discussing things with the community is never a bad thing, and it's half the reason I like(d) SE

hyper-neutrino

I mean, community everything was the entire design principle of SE

it's honestly IMO what makes SE distinctly SE and not at all similar to like, quora, reddit, yahoo ans, whatever other somewhat related (or maybe not) things

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Something a lot of people were extra unhappy about when Jon, Shog and Robert left was the fact that after they left, they made it very clear that, as CMs, they had tried to help the community and were actively prevented from doing so by the higher ups

Redwolf Programs

Any corporation that thinks it's smarter than several million people who use their product daily is, in my opinion, stupid

@cairdcoinheringaahing JS: (f,x)=>y=>f(x,y)

caird coinheringaahing

I like Catija, I think she's an excellent CM who genuinely cares for the communities both individually and as a whole. Honestly, I see a lot of Shog in her (hope you take this the right way if you're reading this Cat). I don't interact with the other CMs enough to pass judgement unfortunately, but I also like JNat (despite him often being the bearer of bad news). However, I can't think of a post by either Sara Chipps or Teresa in the last 2 years where my immediate reaction to seeing it wasnt to grab the popcorn. I don't know why those two in particular are/were often the lightning rods for…

It's an interesting contradiction to see, where even the company itself is split over the issue, and I hope it gets resolved in the best way possible for the community rather than for the corporate partners

Bubbler

03:17

@RedwolfPrograms -1: f=>x=>y=>f(x,y)

Redwolf Programs

I considere that, but taking input via currying seemed kinda cheaty here :p

caird coinheringaahing

"CMC: Curry a function." "JS, N bytes. Defines a curried function :P"

Bubbler

At least it still takes an uncurred function as input :P

Redwolf Programs

My hobby: Repeatedly clicking in the weirdest, most random spots on websites that I know use heatmaps :p

Razetime

is anyone else submitting a blog draft

Bubbler

03:20

Haskell's curry itself is a curried function, you know

caird coinheringaahing

What's the topic this time? Writing explanations?

Redwolf Programs

Oh, has blog stuff occured?

caird coinheringaahing

The first one has been posted, and we're beginning on the second

Razetime

I want to write a post on explanations

maybe we can have more than one topic?

would that be too much?

Redwolf Programs

@Razetime If we're doing it the same way as last time, all contributors write a section or two of the post

Razetime

03:22

mm ok

single topic, each person takes a subtopic

Redwolf Programs

Like with the first post, caird wrote the yes section and I wrote the no one

Razetime

well err

do check some of the changes i made to the repo and tell me if it's kosher

caird coinheringaahing

I don't see any issue with single author blog posts

Underslash

would the following be in good faith? a post where the main objective is to extend any oeis sequence

caird coinheringaahing

If someone is willing to write up a whole post about something relevant to the site, I applaud them. For discussion style posts, it's less applicable, and it's always good to get some extra eyes on anything written, but if Razetime wants to write a blog post, good on them :P

hyper-neutrino

03:25

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Unfortunately I didn't have much interaction with Shog and by the time I started not just participating in my bubble of PPCG but building connections on the whole network it wasn't shortly after that 2019 happened, and by the time I returned to being active and eventually became a mod Shog was long gone :( I've only really interacted with Catija and JNat and I really do love working with both of them; unfortunately like you said JNat does often get the task of posting the bad news, but I really do look up to the way they handle things and honestly try the…

@cairdcoinheringaahing Proton, (&) :P

take the value on the left and the function on the right, or if you want to bind the right argument, vice versa

caird coinheringaahing

The length juxtaposition there :P

hyper-neutrino

yep :P writes a giant wall of text and immediately follows up with a 3-byte golf submission. lol

Redwolf Programs

There should be a human-language equivalent of golfing languages :p

Razetime

it's called slang

Redwolf Programs

Large phonetic inventories could take the place of SBCSs, tonality (and some grammar stuff) could be overloading, etc.

There are lots of parallels, actually

hyper-neutrino

03:28

well if you really want to compress things in terms of duration to speak and not like bytes of representation

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino My biggest takeaway is that 1) Neither Sara nor Teresa nor anyone in particular was entirely at fault for the shit SE went though (and is going though) recently, and that they are still people who deserve to be treated that way. 2) The day that SE makes it clear that they will only prioritise their corporate partners over their communities is the day I leace

hyper-neutrino

you can use like tonality plus stress accenting plus pitch accenting plus whatever else and then use abuse overloading or whatever else you can think of

Underslash

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil#Ithkuil_IV_(2017) language designed specifically to be concise

hyper-neutrino

oh and also use like every phoneme in existence

caird coinheringaahing

I've been pretty permissive with staying here, but that's a hard line in the sand for me

Redwolf Programs

03:29

Maybe not all of them, I don't wanna learn all 100+ click consonants from that one language lol

hyper-neutrino

too bad. you want concise, you get concise :P

caird coinheringaahing

And the way that a lot of people were treating Sara in the Monica incident was disgusting. SE shouldn't have treated Monica the way they did, but even if Sara had clicked the button herself, she's still a person who deserves respect, and too many people forgot that in the heat of the moment

@RedwolfPrograms Ye

Razetime

tamil tends to be very concise and has extremely squiggly glyphs

caird coinheringaahing

> No person, including Quijada himself, is known to be able to speak Ithkuil fluently.

Good job :P

Redwolf Programs

And for code bowling, there's kay(f)bop(t) :p

Razetime

03:33

@cairdcoinheringaahing this sounds more like malbolge rather than golflang

Redwolf Programs

Phonetic hats could be useful for golfing languages too, but might be considered like flags

hyper-neutrino

1. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it - I mean, it makes perfect sense to criticize the individual behaviors staff do if not the posts that we can assume (if we're being generous) had nothing to do with them and are just "corporate says this" - but I agree; treating other people that way no matter _what_ happened just makes the whole situation worse and is honestly really disappointing too. We can say "this staff action shows that the community isn't prioritized" but attacking Sara herself was just unacceptable.

Razetime

@RedwolfPrograms do phonetic hats count as the same char?

Redwolf Programs

Not sure what you mean

hyper-neutrino

also, if there were a golfing natural lang what structure makes the most sense?

SVO? SOV? japanese style particle-verb phrase construction? etc.

Redwolf Programs

03:36

Probably verb first

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Without the community, where else will I get Indonesian gambling spam???

Redwolf Programs

You could add default subjects

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing lol

tacit natural language FTW

caird coinheringaahing

How to avoid the pronoun issue in the first place: tacit langs :P

Redwolf Programs

know. could mean I know., and know I Tim could mean I know Tim

VSOI: verb-subject-direct object-indirect object

Razetime

03:37

@RedwolfPrograms that is why context is useful

caird coinheringaahing

Hi, my pronouns are do not/refer/to me :P

Razetime

saying a tacit phrase in the right context would probably work.

caird coinheringaahing

@Razetime Agree

hyper-neutrino

i mean, in JP you exclude things a lot wherever it makes sense under context so for a natural lang that might work

Razetime

i think it's much funnier to have like 15 logical assertions before each sentence like prolog

hyper-neutrino

03:40

like you could say 私は食べました (I ate) but if you just say 食べました (ate) it's implied that you're talking about yourself and you can get away with it, whereas english has an explicit need for the subject with a verb

Redwolf Programs

If you do it like latin and include information about the subject in the verb itself, that could be pretty concise

hyper-neutrino

please don't add conjugations

i hate conjugations

lol

Bubbler

@hyper-neutrino Korean is even better at that (or worse, if you're actually trying to learn Korean)

Redwolf Programs

I don't like them, but you gotta admit they're short

caird coinheringaahing

@Razetime

Burger is meat. Meat is dead animal. Dead is not alive. Animal is alive. Bread is yeast and time. Yeast is bacteria. I eat burgers with bread.

:P

6

Redwolf Programs

03:41

Yeast is a protist!

hyper-neutrino

@Bubbler I didn't get far enough with learning kr; do you have an example of how it can get confusing for someone learning?

caird coinheringaahing

Yeast is something I vaguely understand!

Redwolf Programs

Not even in the same domain smh

hyper-neutrino

Yeast is yeast!

caird coinheringaahing

I do math, I don't want to have to interact with living things

That's for those fancy biologists to do :=

Bubbler

03:42

@hyper-neutrino Well, I can't give concrete examples, but I'm a native speaker and yet I misinterpret things a lot in spoken Korean :P

hyper-neutrino

oof :P

in the limited bit i learned i found the grammar very confusing - at least the writing system makes sense tho

like someone in a discord server mentioned something today that i only just realized - you know how english has spelling bees?

how bad does your language's writing system need to be that you can have competitions over not screwing up how to write???

caird coinheringaahing

Vaguely, continue

Redwolf Programs

I got second place in a somewhat large spelling bee once

caird coinheringaahing

Damnit, got ninjamd

Bubbler

Yeah, writing system is very easy, actual language is crazy hard

hyper-neutrino

03:44

yeah...

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino TBF if someone came up to me and said "Ate sushi", I'd think they meant "I ate sushi"

hyper-neutrino

the grammar system didn't make sense to me at the time but I vaguely remember it having a similar concept to japanese? or like, having particles to indicate things and then the main sentence structure just being verb

like something I read somewhere IIRC said like "english is SVO, some people think japanese is SOV, but a native japanese speaker will tell you japanese is just V"

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's fair enough

caird coinheringaahing

You can get away without subjects a lot in English if you don't give a shit

4

hyper-neutrino

by default, you are the left argument and your audience is the right argument

caird coinheringaahing

This sentence is a niladic recursive sentence that only refers to itself

hyper-neutrino

03:46

so <eat> <past> <sushi> is a 2,0 chain that implies you ate sushi

where past can be a quick because it just modifies a verb to be past tense

Redwolf Programs

<eat> <past> <sushi> makes you sick

Bubbler

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, Korean is similar in that, basically every noun comes with an annotation indicating S or O or whatever

caird coinheringaahing

It is parsed by chopping of the first atom ("this sentence"), and then we evaluate it as a monadic chain :P

Bubbler

so you can shuffle the words in any way possible and the sentence still makes sense

caird coinheringaahing

Alternatively, I just reinvented J :P

hyper-neutrino

03:47

lol

Bubbler

but the problem comes when people start omitting the annotations :P

hyper-neutrino

oh no :P

caird coinheringaahing

Then you switch to Jelly, much easier to understand :P

Redwolf Programs

Spaces waste a lot of time (and characters). Any language that isn't just one really long word per paragraph is automatically bad :p

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing yes agreed

caird coinheringaahing

03:48

It is hard copy-pasting speech tho

hyper-neutrino

yeah i hate it when i'm talking to my friends and have to copy-paste a sound into my vocal chords

Redwolf Programs

We just need pronounciation rules for the dots and the hooks

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms agreedineverbotgertousethespacebar,justgetsintheway

Typos fuck that style up quickly :P

hyper-neutrino

we'll need a lot of n-graphs cuz there are too many words :p

Redwolf Programs

CMQ: Sentence that is ambiguous without spaces in a funny way

hyper-neutrino

03:49

ignore me i read that as unambiguous

Redwolf Programs

Rude :p

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms nevergonnagiveyouupnevergonnaletyoudownnevergonnarunaroundanddesertyou

hyper-neutrino

here's another idea - instead of tacit where everything is a verb, we find a way to construct everything into nouns and a sentence is just a block of nouns that follow some structure

like you place two nouns next to each other to equate them

caird coinheringaahing

It's ambiguous because you don't know what it is until you decipher it, at which point it's too late and Rick Astley has already kidnapped you and brought you back to his archway lair

@hyper-neutrino Adjectives are fairly important

Redwolf Programs

Make adjectives verbs and keep verbs

caird coinheringaahing

03:51

Exhibit A: that message :P

Redwolf Programs

"I am tall" -> "I tall"

caird coinheringaahing

-> "tall" *gestures at self*

Redwolf Programs

-> *imposingly stands over person being talked to*

hyper-neutrino

(fairliness importance) adjectives

Redwolf Programs

That's just verbs with extra steps :p

Plus having separate nouns and verbs lets you overload them and/or make the grammar more concise

caird coinheringaahing

03:54

@hyper-neutrino I say SE switches to the business model when they sell one byte each of source code to millions of different people for a few dollars each

You can pay extra to make your byte stop working that month :P

Bubbler

@RedwolfPrograms More parts of speech = more concise?

Redwolf Programs

To a degree, I'd say so

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Why overload when you can vectorise?

Redwolf Programs

That's what plural pronouns are for :p

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why choose between the two when you can do both?

*points at K*

caird coinheringaahing

03:57

H-How do you do both?

Redwolf Programs

Make some overloads vectorized versions of the operator, I guess

That's what Ash did quite often

hyper-neutrino

you know what would be even more confusing

overloading the arity based on the data type

think jelly chaining but the grouping can change dynamically with the input type

Redwolf Programs

I have a concept for a golfing language that does that, actually

hyper-neutrino

is it tacit

Redwolf Programs

prefix

hyper-neutrino

03:58

ok that seems... slightly more sane

but still wack

Redwolf Programs

With stack based it's the most sensible

hyper-neutrino

yeah

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing See e.g. dyadic ! in the manual

Razetime

04:14

K's method of packing features into ascii is quite brilliant

Bubbler

Yeah, it's really true

Catija

@hyper-neutrino Nah. Not in this case. We've been working with them on it for months, helping them understand the Community perspective along with the mods/users they were talking to.

hyper-neutrino

04:30

@Catija Oh - good to know then. That makes me a bit more comfortable with the direction it might be going if y'all actually got to get involved in the discussions/decisions(?) this time - still uneasy about it overall though, also especially since the NDAs mean we have no clue what sort of community discussion occurred. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Catija

I've not been closely involved with the process but I'm generally aware of stuff. There's good things in this feature - things that can bring dev rel teams to interact with devs directly on SO. And that's exciting because it potentially means we'll have more expertise participating in some tags. But I'm concerned about other things. The thing that I remember is that it's an MVP. So there's still a lot to do.

@hyper-neutrino monthly 1-1 sessions with the people who were participating to discuss the features and what the product would look like. Gave the participants the opportunity to voice concerns and guide the team.

hyper-neutrino

Ah, cool. I still definitely wish there were some more public community discussion or even just an announcement beforehand and a chance to raise some concerns/questions instead of it just appearing - but as long as there was a good feedback system with some of the community members that's always better than nothing.

@Catija I see. There are definitely positives I think this can/will bring and I hope it'll mostly change in that direction. I definitely have some concerns too but it's not like the end of the world, it's just a precedent I'm not sure I like seeing but without any necessary harm done or benefit gained for now - we'll see and hope for the best :P

Catija

While it's not necessarily obvious, we really don't want to muck with the great parts of SO. We want to enhance them and make it even better. That's not necessarily going to mean that we'll get everything right the first time but there's room for us to change and grow. I think it would have been great to give a preview ahead of time but there's also a need for us to be able to get the first parts of a new product built.
Much of the initial release is benefiting the clients by making it easier to access the tags they need to and have one place to see things that are relevant to their work.

PyGamer0

well a green teletubby called Dream uploaded a video

hyper-neutrino

@Catija Yeah, true. I can understand the decisions even if I strongly disagree with them; at least I can see some reasons for them. Again, nothing catastrophic :) many things I would rather hadn't happened but it's more of an "I'm a bit worried about this" than "this is already really bad"; it's not like that or anything.

TBH tag grouping / access seems like the main benefit and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. (Also, thank you SE chat for showing the (see full text) thing, at least for me, and then not showing anything extra when I click it)

Catija

04:43

We have spent nearly a year actually working on this since it was first presented as an idea at our meetup in November 2019. I don't think we're generally planning to follow this process for many future projects but products (Teams, CoSO) tend to need to get an MVP built so that people can actually play with it and see what it does.
Users are great for development and that's why we did work with some of the most in-tune and thoughtful people... but there's also the element of too many cooks in the kitchen.

And, well... who knows the actual impact. We can make guesses - and they can be well-informed and thoughtful... but we kinda need to try things sometimes to see what actually happens... even if it's just to prove that we were correct.

Anyway. If y'all have specific questions, I can try to answer them. Just let me know

hyper-neutrino

Oh, so it's been a while then. And yeah, I totally understand needing an MVP. It's hard to talk about and raise concerns with something that doesn't exist after all :) and "people can play around with it" definitely doesn't seem something Teams has seen a shortage of, lol.

That's true; we can't really tell exactly how something will turn out if it's not tried beyond guessing, which no matter how educated, is still guessing.

@Catija Alright, will do :) Thanks for explaining some things more.

Redwolf Programs

05:00

> Mullis won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for development of the polymerase chain reaction ... and claimed that he once encountered a fluorescent raccoon that spoke with him.

source

wasif

the scientists always have done weird things at some point of their life

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Elevator sequence code-golf sequence grid Totally not inspired by Lyxal repeatedly mentioning elevators in chat :P Challenge In short: simulate some people filling up an elevator and then leaving it in the following. The elevator is simplified as a grid, where each person can occupy one cell of t...

Redwolf Programs

Should this be closed? Seems quite unclear to me.

wasif

@RedwolfPrograms no

it is already open so many years

none closed it

Redwolf Programs

That's not at all a good reason

wasif

05:13

it has 29 upvotes too

Redwolf Programs

Still not a good reason

hyper-neutrino

also not a good reason

Redwolf Programs

The first question on the site is 10 years old (and was open for 5) and has a score of +23, doesn't mean it's good or should be open :p

wasif

oh ok

Bubbler

It's quite unclear to the current standards, but IMO the way to go should be adding necessary details of the game Pong and its graphic parts, not unilaterally closing it

wasif

05:16

the OP is online in chat, lets ping them to clarify about the challenge

Bubbler

@felipa Can you add some details to the challenge?

wasif

@felipa your this challenge is going to be closed, you should add some more details lest it should be closed

Bubbler

@wasif You don't need to ping someone the second time for the same thing

Redwolf Programs

Probably just a ninja

Razetime

noo I wrote my first K answer there

wasif

05:19

@Bubbler oh sorry

i didn't notice your message

@Razetime even if the challenge is closed your answer is gonna stay in place

Razetime

i know but still

wasif

again double post after edit

Razetime

bmg in 5h woo

Redwolf Programs

?

Bubbler

BMG today happened 5 hours ago...

hyper-neutrino

05:30

even if it were the next rotation it'd be in 2.5h not 5

Razetime

hm 6am

Redwolf Programs

Almost nobody was at this BMG from what I can tell, so you didn't miss too much :p

A username

We should create a stack-based spoken language!

Or more accurately:

Redwolf Programs

There's been jokes about that here before, IIRC :p

A username

We create should stack-based a language spoken!

hyper-neutrino

05:43

we've almost certainly joked about any programming structure/paradigm/model for natural languages

A username

Tape-based?

hyper-neutrino

"We language spoken stack-based create should" would be more accurate

A username

Oh true

You "a" forgot

Redwolf Programs

Well in a stack based language the and a probably aren't as necessary

lyxal

Wouldn't it be ! language spoken stack-based a create should we?

Razetime

05:45

@DLosc funnily enough, Pip seems to be the only golflang in use that can be directly added to code.golf

lyxal

@Razetime what about unpacked stax?

wasif

is there any esolang based on plain englisg

Redwolf Programs

INTERCAL

wasif

oh

actually how many dedicated websites are for code golf

A username

I this like, funny it's

wasif

05:47

CGCC, code.golf, golf.shinh.org etc.

Bubbler

All sites I know of (except CGCC and Codidact) are closed-source competitions

Razetime

@lyxal no command line args

Bubbler

TA is not in the list simply because it is dead

Razetime

stax takes everything from STDIN

wasif

@Bubbler what is TA

Bubbler

05:49

TopAnswers has code golf site

wasif

i see

Adám

@Bubbler Yup, and that's why I have no interest in participating other places.

wasif

CMQ: what do you personally think, which is more easier: tacit, stack, 2D or normal for a golflang

Redwolf Programs

"normal"?

(Also stack is the easiest)

Razetime

in terms of usage or implementation?

wasif

05:51

@RedwolfPrograms like python/Js etc

@Razetime usage

Redwolf Programs

Stack based is typically considered the easiest to make and use

Razetime

normal is the easiest for me(aka japt, which works almost akin to js)

stack based is more unwieldy imo

Redwolf Programs

I suppose a normal one could be easier to use

Adám

@wasif tacit

wasif

Yeah I am too used to normal and stack

but I sometimes get well with easy 2D langs

@Adám nice

Adám

05:53

I think all of these answers simply reflect what people are used to.

wasif

I think Charcoal is in the category of "normal"? it dosen't have stack or is not tacit plus uses variables

Redwolf Programs

Very few ~~sane~~ people would consider tacit the easiest :p

Adám

Humans have an amazing brain, that can get used to most any strange interface.

hyper-neutrino

JS is "normal"?

12

Bubbler

@wasif Verbose mode of Charcoal is normal, golfing mode is prefix I think

hyper-neutrino

05:55

I honestly find Jelly easier to understand than APL and stack-based languages. Is this any indication about the language types? No, it just means I'm used to Jelly :P

Unrelated String

so this is defining "normal" as imperative-ish functional-ish prefixy

Redwolf Programs

Prefix is a subset of tacit, right?

Unrelated String

prefix is not tacit

A username

I prefer stack based, although something that visualised the stack would be useful.

wasif

@RedwolfPrograms pyth is prefix too

lyxal

05:55

I think tacit is coolest followed by stack based then normal.

wasif

which is normal

A username

Hold on,let me fix that

Adám

I once tried riding a bike where the rotation of the handlebar was the opposite of a normal bike (i.e. turn clockwise to steer left).

Unrelated String

wait what

Razetime

prefix can be tacit

wasif

05:56

@lyxal yeah exactly

PyGamer0

what is tacit

lyxal

@Adám I've seen a video of that somewhere (not you, but a bike like that)

wasif

@PyGamer0 forming chains to get job donr

lyxal

@PyGamer0 you never refer to the arguments explicitly iirc

Unrelated String

you can

Adám

05:56

Yeah, it is almost impossible if you're used to biking.

lyxal

@UnrelatedString but you usually don't

According to Wikipedia, stack based is also a form of tacit

hyper-neutrino

I think the main thing about tacit is you don't need to refer to arguments

Redwolf Programs

^

Adám

Yet, airplane rudder controls are exactly like that: Push the Left foot away from you to turn left.

hyper-neutrino

is the ability to write functions together to form chains/trains/compositions part of tacit or functional?

A username

05:57

I stack-based prefer something the stack that visualised useful would be although.

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino Sort of both, right?

I don't think they're exclusive

wasif

wait how about tape based

lyxal

Python can be tacit if you're brave enough

PyGamer0

@lyxal how?

Razetime

is there some tacit python lib

wasif

05:58

????

Unrelated String

i feel like the definition of tacit we operate on is specifically anything modeled on trains

Redwolf Programs

@wasif Storage method and tacit/not tacit are mostly different things

lyxal

from functools import partial, reduce
def compose(*fns):
return partial(reduce, lambda v, fn: fn(v), fns)

example = compose(baz, bar, foo)

Taken from en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming

wasif

nice

Unrelated String

like i would really hesitate to call pointfree haskell tacit

wasif

05:59

but I don't want to use it tacitly

PyGamer0

input -> range -> square each -> print each (is this tacit)

lyxal

@UnrelatedString they are the same thing

Razetime

a full tacit system should probably allow more than one input

lyxal

> Tacit programming, also called point-free style, is a programming paradigm in which function definitions do not identify the arguments (or "points") on which they operate.

Adám

@UnrelatedString Why? Pointfree and tacit are generally considered synonyms.

lyxal

06:00

Ninja'd :p

PyGamer0

@lyxal i steel do not understand that

lyxal

Depends on how you do it

Adám

@PyGamer0 Compare: "sum dividedby length" and "sum(x) dividedby length(x)"

lyxal

^

Bubbler

????????????????????????????????????

Razetime

06:02

@PyGamer0 you arrange functions in a specific manner. This makes the interpreter look at the functions and assume where inputs should go. Then, the interpreter converts your code to what it assumes you want and executes it.

Adám

@Bubbler ?

Razetime

@Bubbler if this were not from bubbler I would have assumed it was a rickroll

in a way, a stack based language with implicit input can be considered tacit

A username

@Razetime Same

Bubbler

If Hamiltonian cycle is really P, P=NP is solved and all NP-complete problems have polynomial-time solution

A username

Although now I'm worried Bubbler's going to stack rickrolling...

wasif

06:04

lol

but what is "stack" rickrolling

A username

Oops

*start

I type whatever's on my mind.

wasif

bye for now

A username

Adios!

Bubbler

and that means any kind of NP-complete reduction challenge like this is pointless now

hyper-neutrino

o.O

last time something about P vs NP was published it got taken down because it was wrong IIRC (from carnegie? no memory)

New Posts

06:27

0

Q: Is this a Permutation of 1..n

Input a non-empty array with \$n\$ positive integers. Test if the input array contains every integers in \$1\cdots n\$. In case you prefer 0-indexed numbers, you may choice to input an array of non-negative integers, and test if the input array contains every integers in \$0\cdots (n-1)\$ instead...

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