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3:00 AM
I added the code golf tag
yeah, I forgot about that
And my vision for how collectives work is basically just tags with a few new features.
@RedwolfPrograms even if they did like... it's yet another one of those things that's like "maybe you should've asked the community first??" ...
@hyper-neutrino I believe it means that they have "word of god" over what is and isn't correct. A lot of SO questions fall victim to the idea that the answerer may not actually know the answer but has just found something that works. Between this and the Outdated Answers feature, it seems as the SO is working towards improving the accuracy and correctness of their answers
So how does one go about making a new collective?
3:01 AM
I totally support SO making money. I just wish they'd ask us first and work with the community to find better ways to do it.
Can we as average users make collectives?
Unfortunately, being a recently sold company, they have corporate overlords to answer to, so they've spun it in a way to make money
@lyxal Have money
when I initially saw it I thought it was like codidact's categories but without actually dividing them into separate locations and just grouping questions belonging to one category together, but didn't expect it to actually fundamentally change the way SO works
@lyxal If you are the kind of average user who runs a major programming language :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, that's definitely true
3:02 AM
@RedwolfPrograms one day that might be true
I think the ability for a corporation to mark an answer about something they created as "this is an actual good solution and not just some stupid hack" is a good thing, and I mentioned this in the codidact server discussion too, but like
I believe the current answer is "You don't, this is a trial", and they're working on expanding that out to more clients. But ultimately, this isn't something users create, it's something we'll use
it's a major change and even if I personally think it's good, or at least alright, I would hope it'd be discussed first
I do wish they'd at least announced it before beginning it
like even if they don't disclose details on it due to corporate interests (which always sounds sketchy, but I don't understand enough legal things), at least like announce the upcoming things and get a bit of feedback on maybe potential issues or if it'll be absolutely hated and rejected
if we asked a CM about it they'd probably tell us "I just found out a few hours ago too" - I've been noticing recently that even CMs don't seem to find out about these things and the users and mods of the sites themselves are just kinda left wondering what'll happen at any time :/
3:04 AM
Pretty much every major change recently has been "We're going to start doing X beginning from Y. Feedback?" This is a rare (but not rare enough) example of them saying "As of today, X is live"
Discussing things with the community is never a bad thing, and it's half the reason I like(d) SE
I mean, community everything was the entire design principle of SE
it's honestly IMO what makes SE distinctly SE and not at all similar to like, quora, reddit, yahoo ans, whatever other somewhat related (or maybe not) things
@hyper-neutrino Something a lot of people were extra unhappy about when Jon, Shog and Robert left was the fact that after they left, they made it very clear that, as CMs, they had tried to help the community and were actively prevented from doing so by the higher ups
Any corporation that thinks it's smarter than several million people who use their product daily is, in my opinion, stupid
@cairdcoinheringaahing JS: (f,x)=>y=>f(x,y)
I like Catija, I think she's an excellent CM who genuinely cares for the communities both individually and as a whole. Honestly, I see a lot of Shog in her (hope you take this the right way if you're reading this Cat). I don't interact with the other CMs enough to pass judgement unfortunately, but I also like JNat (despite him often being the bearer of bad news). However, I can't think of a post by either Sara Chipps or Teresa in the last 2 years where my immediate reaction to seeing it wasnt to grab the popcorn. I don't know why those two in particular are/were often the lightning rods for
It's an interesting contradiction to see, where even the company itself is split over the issue, and I hope it gets resolved in the best way possible for the community rather than for the corporate partners
3:17 AM
@RedwolfPrograms -1: f=>x=>y=>f(x,y)
I considere that, but taking input via currying seemed kinda cheaty here :p
"CMC: Curry a function." "JS, N bytes. Defines a curried function :P"
At least it still takes an uncurred function as input :P
My hobby: Repeatedly clicking in the weirdest, most random spots on websites that I know use heatmaps :p
is anyone else submitting a blog draft
3:20 AM
Haskell's curry itself is a curried function, you know
What's the topic this time? Writing explanations?
Oh, has blog stuff occured?
The first one has been posted, and we're beginning on the second
I want to write a post on explanations
maybe we can have more than one topic?
would that be too much?
@Razetime If we're doing it the same way as last time, all contributors write a section or two of the post
3:22 AM
mm ok
single topic, each person takes a subtopic
Like with the first post, caird wrote the yes section and I wrote the no one
well err
do check some of the changes i made to the repo and tell me if it's kosher
I don't see any issue with single author blog posts
would the following be in good faith? a post where the main objective is to extend any oeis sequence
If someone is willing to write up a whole post about something relevant to the site, I applaud them. For discussion style posts, it's less applicable, and it's always good to get some extra eyes on anything written, but if Razetime wants to write a blog post, good on them :P
3:25 AM
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Unfortunately I didn't have much interaction with Shog and by the time I started not just participating in my bubble of PPCG but building connections on the whole network it wasn't shortly after that 2019 happened, and by the time I returned to being active and eventually became a mod Shog was long gone :( I've only really interacted with Catija and JNat and I really do love working with both of them; unfortunately like you said JNat does often get the task of posting the bad news, but I really do look up to the way they handle things and honestly try the
@cairdcoinheringaahing Proton, (&) :P
take the value on the left and the function on the right, or if you want to bind the right argument, vice versa
The length juxtaposition there :P
yep :P writes a giant wall of text and immediately follows up with a 3-byte golf submission. lol
There should be a human-language equivalent of golfing languages :p
it's called slang
Large phonetic inventories could take the place of SBCSs, tonality (and some grammar stuff) could be overloading, etc.
There are lots of parallels, actually
3:28 AM
well if you really want to compress things in terms of duration to speak and not like bytes of representation
@hyper-neutrino My biggest takeaway is that 1) Neither Sara nor Teresa nor anyone in particular was entirely at fault for the shit SE went though (and is going though) recently, and that they are still people who deserve to be treated that way. 2) The day that SE makes it clear that they will only prioritise their corporate partners over their communities is the day I leace
you can use like tonality plus stress accenting plus pitch accenting plus whatever else and then use abuse overloading or whatever else you can think of
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil#Ithkuil_IV_(2017) language designed specifically to be concise
oh and also use like every phoneme in existence
I've been pretty permissive with staying here, but that's a hard line in the sand for me
3:29 AM
Maybe not all of them, I don't wanna learn all 100+ click consonants from that one language lol
too bad. you want concise, you get concise :P
And the way that a lot of people were treating Sara in the Monica incident was disgusting. SE shouldn't have treated Monica the way they did, but even if Sara had clicked the button herself, she's still a person who deserves respect, and too many people forgot that in the heat of the moment
@RedwolfPrograms Ye
tamil tends to be very concise and has extremely squiggly glyphs
> No person, including Quijada himself, is known to be able to speak Ithkuil fluently.
Good job :P
And for code bowling, there's kay(f)bop(t) :p
3:33 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing this sounds more like malbolge rather than golflang
Phonetic hats could be useful for golfing languages too, but might be considered like flags
1. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it - I mean, it makes perfect sense to criticize the individual behaviors staff do if not the posts that we can assume (if we're being generous) had nothing to do with them and are just "corporate says this" - but I agree; treating other people that way no matter _what_ happened just makes the whole situation worse and is honestly really disappointing too. We can say "this staff action shows that the community isn't prioritized" but attacking Sara herself was just unacceptable.
@RedwolfPrograms do phonetic hats count as the same char?
Not sure what you mean
also, if there were a golfing natural lang what structure makes the most sense?
SVO? SOV? japanese style particle-verb phrase construction? etc.
3:36 AM
Probably verb first
@hyper-neutrino Without the community, where else will I get Indonesian gambling spam???
You could add default subjects
@cairdcoinheringaahing lol
tacit natural language FTW
How to avoid the pronoun issue in the first place: tacit langs :P
know. could mean I know., and know I Tim could mean I know Tim
VSOI: verb-subject-direct object-indirect object
3:37 AM
@RedwolfPrograms that is why context is useful
Hi, my pronouns are do not/refer/to me :P
saying a tacit phrase in the right context would probably work.
@Razetime Agree
i mean, in JP you exclude things a lot wherever it makes sense under context so for a natural lang that might work
i think it's much funnier to have like 15 logical assertions before each sentence like prolog
3:40 AM
like you could say 私は食べました (I ate) but if you just say 食べました (ate) it's implied that you're talking about yourself and you can get away with it, whereas english has an explicit need for the subject with a verb
If you do it like latin and include information about the subject in the verb itself, that could be pretty concise
please don't add conjugations
i hate conjugations
@hyper-neutrino Korean is even better at that (or worse, if you're actually trying to learn Korean)
I don't like them, but you gotta admit they're short
@Razetime Burger is meat. Meat is dead animal. Dead is not alive. Animal is alive. Bread is yeast and time. Yeast is bacteria. I eat burgers with bread. :P
3:41 AM
Yeast is a protist!
@Bubbler I didn't get far enough with learning kr; do you have an example of how it can get confusing for someone learning?
Yeast is something I vaguely understand!
Not even in the same domain smh
Yeast is yeast!
I do math, I don't want to have to interact with living things
That's for those fancy biologists to do :=
3:42 AM
@hyper-neutrino Well, I can't give concrete examples, but I'm a native speaker and yet I misinterpret things a lot in spoken Korean :P
oof :P
in the limited bit i learned i found the grammar very confusing - at least the writing system makes sense tho
like someone in a discord server mentioned something today that i only just realized - you know how english has spelling bees?
how bad does your language's writing system need to be that you can have competitions over not screwing up how to write???
Vaguely, continue
I got second place in a somewhat large spelling bee once
Damnit, got ninjamd
Yeah, writing system is very easy, actual language is crazy hard
3:44 AM
@hyper-neutrino TBF if someone came up to me and said "Ate sushi", I'd think they meant "I ate sushi"
the grammar system didn't make sense to me at the time but I vaguely remember it having a similar concept to japanese? or like, having particles to indicate things and then the main sentence structure just being verb
like something I read somewhere IIRC said like "english is SVO, some people think japanese is SOV, but a native japanese speaker will tell you japanese is just V"
@cairdcoinheringaahing that's fair enough
You can get away without subjects a lot in English if you don't give a shit
by default, you are the left argument and your audience is the right argument
This sentence is a niladic recursive sentence that only refers to itself
3:46 AM
so <eat> <past> <sushi> is a 2,0 chain that implies you ate sushi
where past can be a quick because it just modifies a verb to be past tense
<eat> <past> <sushi> makes you sick
@hyper-neutrino Yeah, Korean is similar in that, basically every noun comes with an annotation indicating S or O or whatever
It is parsed by chopping of the first atom ("this sentence"), and then we evaluate it as a monadic chain :P
so you can shuffle the words in any way possible and the sentence still makes sense
Alternatively, I just reinvented J :P
3:47 AM
but the problem comes when people start omitting the annotations :P
oh no :P
Then you switch to Jelly, much easier to understand :P
Spaces waste a lot of time (and characters). Any language that isn't just one really long word per paragraph is automatically bad :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing yes agreed
3:48 AM
It is hard copy-pasting speech tho
yeah i hate it when i'm talking to my friends and have to copy-paste a sound into my vocal chords
We just need pronounciation rules for the dots and the hooks
@RedwolfPrograms agreedineverbotgertousethespacebar,justgetsintheway
Typos fuck that style up quickly :P
we'll need a lot of n-graphs cuz there are too many words :p
CMQ: Sentence that is ambiguous without spaces in a funny way
3:49 AM
ignore me i read that as unambiguous
Rude :p
@RedwolfPrograms nevergonnagiveyouupnevergonnaletyoudownnevergonnarunaroundanddesertyou
here's another idea - instead of tacit where everything is a verb, we find a way to construct everything into nouns and a sentence is just a block of nouns that follow some structure
like you place two nouns next to each other to equate them
It's ambiguous because you don't know what it is until you decipher it, at which point it's too late and Rick Astley has already kidnapped you and brought you back to his archway lair
@hyper-neutrino Adjectives are fairly important
Make adjectives verbs and keep verbs
3:51 AM
Exhibit A: that message :P
"I am tall" -> "I tall"
-> "tall" *gestures at self*
-> *imposingly stands over person being talked to*
(fairliness importance) adjectives
That's just verbs with extra steps :p
Plus having separate nouns and verbs lets you overload them and/or make the grammar more concise
3:54 AM
@hyper-neutrino I say SE switches to the business model when they sell one byte each of source code to millions of different people for a few dollars each
You can pay extra to make your byte stop working that month :P
@RedwolfPrograms More parts of speech = more concise?
To a degree, I'd say so
@RedwolfPrograms Why overload when you can vectorise?
That's what plural pronouns are for :p
@cairdcoinheringaahing Why choose between the two when you can do both?
*points at K*
3:57 AM
H-How do you do both?
Make some overloads vectorized versions of the operator, I guess
That's what Ash did quite often
you know what would be even more confusing
overloading the arity based on the data type
think jelly chaining but the grouping can change dynamically with the input type
I have a concept for a golfing language that does that, actually
is it tacit
3:58 AM
ok that seems... slightly more sane
but still wack
With stack based it's the most sensible
@cairdcoinheringaahing See e.g. dyadic ! in the manual
4:14 AM
K's method of packing features into ascii is quite brilliant
Yeah, it's really true
@hyper-neutrino Nah. Not in this case. We've been working with them on it for months, helping them understand the Community perspective along with the mods/users they were talking to.
4:30 AM
@Catija Oh - good to know then. That makes me a bit more comfortable with the direction it might be going if y'all actually got to get involved in the discussions/decisions(?) this time - still uneasy about it overall though, also especially since the NDAs mean we have no clue what sort of community discussion occurred. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've not been closely involved with the process but I'm generally aware of stuff. There's good things in this feature - things that can bring dev rel teams to interact with devs directly on SO. And that's exciting because it potentially means we'll have more expertise participating in some tags. But I'm concerned about other things. The thing that I remember is that it's an MVP. So there's still a lot to do.
@hyper-neutrino monthly 1-1 sessions with the people who were participating to discuss the features and what the product would look like. Gave the participants the opportunity to voice concerns and guide the team.
Ah, cool. I still definitely wish there were some more public community discussion or even just an announcement beforehand and a chance to raise some concerns/questions instead of it just appearing - but as long as there was a good feedback system with some of the community members that's always better than nothing.
@Catija I see. There are definitely positives I think this can/will bring and I hope it'll mostly change in that direction. I definitely have some concerns too but it's not like the end of the world, it's just a precedent I'm not sure I like seeing but without any necessary harm done or benefit gained for now - we'll see and hope for the best :P
While it's not necessarily obvious, we really don't want to muck with the great parts of SO. We want to enhance them and make it even better. That's not necessarily going to mean that we'll get everything right the first time but there's room for us to change and grow. I think it would have been great to give a preview ahead of time but there's also a need for us to be able to get the first parts of a new product built.
Much of the initial release is benefiting the clients by making it easier to access the tags they need to and have one place to see things that are relevant to their work.
well a green teletubby called Dream uploaded a video
@Catija Yeah, true. I can understand the decisions even if I strongly disagree with them; at least I can see some reasons for them. Again, nothing catastrophic :) many things I would rather hadn't happened but it's more of an "I'm a bit worried about this" than "this is already really bad"; it's not like that or anything.
TBH tag grouping / access seems like the main benefit and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. (Also, thank you SE chat for showing the (see full text) thing, at least for me, and then not showing anything extra when I click it)
4:43 AM
We have spent nearly a year actually working on this since it was first presented as an idea at our meetup in November 2019. I don't think we're generally planning to follow this process for many future projects but products (Teams, CoSO) tend to need to get an MVP built so that people can actually play with it and see what it does.
Users are great for development and that's why we did work with some of the most in-tune and thoughtful people... but there's also the element of too many cooks in the kitchen.
And, well... who knows the actual impact. We can make guesses - and they can be well-informed and thoughtful... but we kinda need to try things sometimes to see what actually happens... even if it's just to prove that we were correct.
Anyway. If y'all have specific questions, I can try to answer them. Just let me know
Oh, so it's been a while then. And yeah, I totally understand needing an MVP. It's hard to talk about and raise concerns with something that doesn't exist after all :) and "people can play around with it" definitely doesn't seem something Teams has seen a shortage of, lol.
That's true; we can't really tell exactly how something will turn out if it's not tried beyond guessing, which no matter how educated, is still guessing.
@Catija Alright, will do :) Thanks for explaining some things more.
5:00 AM
> Mullis won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for development of the polymerase chain reaction ... and claimed that he once encountered a fluorescent raccoon that spoke with him.
the scientists always have done weird things at some point of their life
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

BubblerElevator sequence code-golf sequence grid Totally not inspired by Lyxal repeatedly mentioning elevators in chat :P Challenge In short: simulate some people filling up an elevator and then leaving it in the following. The elevator is simplified as a grid, where each person can occupy one cell of t...

Should this be closed? Seems quite unclear to me.
@RedwolfPrograms no
it is already open so many years
none closed it
That's not at all a good reason
5:13 AM
it has 29 upvotes too
Still not a good reason
also not a good reason
The first question on the site is 10 years old (and was open for 5) and has a score of +23, doesn't mean it's good or should be open :p
oh ok
It's quite unclear to the current standards, but IMO the way to go should be adding necessary details of the game Pong and its graphic parts, not unilaterally closing it
5:16 AM
the OP is online in chat, lets ping them to clarify about the challenge
@felipa Can you add some details to the challenge?
@felipa your this challenge is going to be closed, you should add some more details lest it should be closed
@wasif You don't need to ping someone the second time for the same thing
Probably just a ninja
noo I wrote my first K answer there
5:19 AM
@Bubbler oh sorry
i didn't notice your message
@Razetime even if the challenge is closed your answer is gonna stay in place
i know but still
again double post after edit
bmg in 5h woo
BMG today happened 5 hours ago...
5:30 AM
even if it were the next rotation it'd be in 2.5h not 5
hm 6am
Almost nobody was at this BMG from what I can tell, so you didn't miss too much :p
We should create a stack-based spoken language!
Or more accurately:
There's been jokes about that here before, IIRC :p
We create should stack-based a language spoken!
5:43 AM
we've almost certainly joked about any programming structure/paradigm/model for natural languages
"We language spoken stack-based create should" would be more accurate
Oh true
You "a" forgot
Well in a stack based language the and a probably aren't as necessary
Wouldn't it be ! language spoken stack-based a create should we?
5:45 AM
@DLosc funnily enough, Pip seems to be the only golflang in use that can be directly added to code.golf
@Razetime what about unpacked stax?
is there any esolang based on plain englisg
actually how many dedicated websites are for code golf
I this like, funny it's
5:47 AM
CGCC, code.golf, golf.shinh.org etc.
All sites I know of (except CGCC and Codidact) are closed-source competitions
@lyxal no command line args
TA is not in the list simply because it is dead
stax takes everything from STDIN
@Bubbler what is TA
5:49 AM
TopAnswers has code golf site
i see
@Bubbler Yup, and that's why I have no interest in participating other places.
CMQ: what do you personally think, which is more easier: tacit, stack, 2D or normal for a golflang
(Also stack is the easiest)
in terms of usage or implementation?
5:51 AM
@RedwolfPrograms like python/Js etc
@Razetime usage
Stack based is typically considered the easiest to make and use
normal is the easiest for me(aka japt, which works almost akin to js)
stack based is more unwieldy imo
I suppose a normal one could be easier to use
@wasif tacit
Yeah I am too used to normal and stack
but I sometimes get well with easy 2D langs
@Adám nice
5:53 AM
I think all of these answers simply reflect what people are used to.
I think Charcoal is in the category of "normal"? it dosen't have stack or is not tacit plus uses variables
Very few sane people would consider tacit the easiest :p
Humans have an amazing brain, that can get used to most any strange interface.
JS is "normal"?
@wasif Verbose mode of Charcoal is normal, golfing mode is prefix I think
5:55 AM
I honestly find Jelly easier to understand than APL and stack-based languages. Is this any indication about the language types? No, it just means I'm used to Jelly :P
so this is defining "normal" as imperative-ish functional-ish prefixy
Prefix is a subset of tacit, right?
prefix is not tacit
I prefer stack based, although something that visualised the stack would be useful.
@RedwolfPrograms pyth is prefix too
5:55 AM
I think tacit is coolest followed by stack based then normal.
which is normal
Hold on,let me fix that
I once tried riding a bike where the rotation of the handlebar was the opposite of a normal bike (i.e. turn clockwise to steer left).
wait what
prefix can be tacit
5:56 AM
@lyxal yeah exactly
what is tacit
@Adám I've seen a video of that somewhere (not you, but a bike like that)
@PyGamer0 forming chains to get job donr
@PyGamer0 you never refer to the arguments explicitly iirc
you can
5:56 AM
Yeah, it is almost impossible if you're used to biking.
@UnrelatedString but you usually don't
According to Wikipedia, stack based is also a form of tacit
I think the main thing about tacit is you don't need to refer to arguments
Yet, airplane rudder controls are exactly like that: Push the Left foot away from you to turn left.
is the ability to write functions together to form chains/trains/compositions part of tacit or functional?
5:57 AM
I stack-based prefer something the stack that visualised useful would be although.
@hyper-neutrino Sort of both, right?
I don't think they're exclusive
wait how about tape based
Python can be tacit if you're brave enough
@lyxal how?
is there some tacit python lib
5:58 AM
i feel like the definition of tacit we operate on is specifically anything modeled on trains
@wasif Storage method and tacit/not tacit are mostly different things
from functools import partial, reduce
def compose(*fns):
return partial(reduce, lambda v, fn: fn(v), fns)

example = compose(baz, bar, foo)
like i would really hesitate to call pointfree haskell tacit
5:59 AM
but I don't want to use it tacitly
input -> range -> square each -> print each (is this tacit)
@UnrelatedString they are the same thing
a full tacit system should probably allow more than one input
> Tacit programming, also called point-free style, is a programming paradigm in which function definitions do not identify the arguments (or "points") on which they operate.
@UnrelatedString Why? Pointfree and tacit are generally considered synonyms.
6:00 AM
Ninja'd :p
@lyxal i steel do not understand that
Depends on how you do it
@PyGamer0 Compare: "sum dividedby length" and "sum(x) dividedby length(x)"
6:02 AM
@PyGamer0 you arrange functions in a specific manner. This makes the interpreter look at the functions and assume where inputs should go. Then, the interpreter converts your code to what it assumes you want and executes it.
@Bubbler ?
@Bubbler if this were not from bubbler I would have assumed it was a rickroll
in a way, a stack based language with implicit input can be considered tacit
@Razetime Same
If Hamiltonian cycle is really P, P=NP is solved and all NP-complete problems have polynomial-time solution
Although now I'm worried Bubbler's going to stack rickrolling...
6:04 AM
but what is "stack" rickrolling
I type whatever's on my mind.
bye for now
and that means any kind of NP-complete reduction challenge like this is pointless now
last time something about P vs NP was published it got taken down because it was wrong IIRC (from carnegie? no memory)
6:27 AM
Q: Is this a Permutation of 1..n

tshInput a non-empty array with \$n\$ positive integers. Test if the input array contains every integers in \$1\cdots n\$. In case you prefer 0-indexed numbers, you may choice to input an array of non-negative integers, and test if the input array contains every integers in \$0\cdots (n-1)\$ instead...


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