The Nineteenth Byte

caird coinheringaahing

23:02

CMC: What do you think 2.0 - 0.0 outputs in Jelly?

Redwolf Programs

Something weird involving arrays and stuff

. is wrap, right?

caird coinheringaahing

No, W is wrap

. is a decimal point

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms since the assembler's newline sensitive, lines will be thin so if possible it would be nice for there to be 2+ columns

Redwolf Programs

@Wezl The problem is I'm awful at designing things with columns that look good on both mobile and desktop

Wezl

does space do something? I'm suspicious Jelly doesn't care about its being whitespace

caird coinheringaahing

23:05

Space is used to separate , (the pair atom) from , (when constructing a list). Otherwise, no, I don't think it does anything

E.g. 1,2,3 vs 1,2, 3

Unrelated String

it breaks literals up more generally as well, like in the classic case of O:3 ı*

most of the time you may as well use ¹

Redwolf Programs

:o

The Hello, world! program in 10IPL is 69 bytes

rak1507

23:20

@Lyxal found a new language for you

Wezl

Out of chat mini challenge: click the right arrow until you get to the end

rak1507

now I'm just hungry

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing My reputation is -2,311

Redwolf Programs

I unfortunately managed to golf it :(

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing without running i'm going to guess 2.0-10.0?

Wezl

23:23

@rak1507 I was successful then?

rak1507

if that was your goal

Wezl

unfortunately I'm most likely not close enough to you to bribe you with food

rak1507

lol

Lyxal

@Wezl jokes on you I just made and will now eat breakfast

Stoopid.

Wezl

keep clicking until your breakfast feels inadequate :)

hyper-neutrino

23:25

oh the 2.0 doesn't get smash printed. ofc. i'm stupid

Lyxal

@Wezl you've activated my trap card: I don't like much outside of plainish food

hyper-neutrino

okay i'm confused by how this works D:

Redwolf Programs

I'm smart...I forgot to make the online interpreter actually check if the URL contains a program

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms no, you're redwolf programs

@hyper-neutrino and you're hyperneutrino

Both of you need to learn who you actually are

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Parsing magic :P

ASCII-only

23:29

i am ascii-οnly

3

Lyxal

@ASCII-only yes. Good to see that someone knows who they are

ASCII-only

~~ha, lyxal didn't notice my sneaky~~

caird coinheringaahing

@ASCII-only No, you're ASCII-only, duh :P

2

ASCII-only

er

caird coinheringaahing

(I hate myself for doing that)

ASCII-only

23:31

i said nothing

Lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing don't.

caird coinheringaahing

Hey, anyone want to do some black market voting? Gotta keep it very down low :P I receive: 1 upvote on something worth an upvote. You receive: 1 upvote on something worth an upvote :P

Redwolf Programs

Sure

ASCII-only

~~one upvote for charcoal please~~

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing lol

caird coinheringaahing

23:34

@RedwolfPrograms Anything in particular you think is impressive?

Redwolf Programs

This isn't a trap right? You're not with the feds?

ASCII-only

@ASCII-only good, nobody noticed the omicron

Redwolf Programs

Just put a lot of work into this, I guess

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms No, but we gotta make sure the mods don't find out :P

Redwolf Programs

What do you need upvoted?

caird coinheringaahing

23:35

@RedwolfPrograms Anything that isn't the Latin Square question, I don't mind :P

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms invalid, it doesn't have an interpreter that accepts those raw bytes

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only Yeah it does

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Is that 10IPL's debut?

Redwolf Programs

Paste it into the Binary text box

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yep!

caird coinheringaahing

In which case I would've upvoted it anyway if I'd seen it :P

Wezl

23:37

@RedwolfPrograms that's a text representation of the codes

but maybe you could count the base64 in the URL :P

Redwolf Programs

IMO accepting the binary representation of the bytes and accepting the bytes themselves is just an I/O thing. I could just as easily change it to accept the raw bytes, it'd just be considerably more annoying to use.

caird coinheringaahing

Is there an offline interpreter that accepts a file of raw bytes?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh dear, it looks like you've contracted Lyxal-itis!

Redwolf Programs

Not yet, but that's coming soon (in Minecraft of course :p)

user

The first symptom is making an answer that uses "funny numbers"

caird coinheringaahing

23:39

Fun fact: Epic and Legendary count even if you hit 200 in a day, then immediately get downvoted to result in less than 200

user

As the disease progresses, you start making "No, you're not ..., you're ..." jokes

Then you start coding in Scratch on mobile

caird coinheringaahing

@user What's the cure?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing There is no cure.

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing you get flipped ~~upside down~~ right side up and eat a quesadilla

3

user

I'm afraid the only thing we can do right now is give you good food to keep you comfortable until your ultimate descent into madness.

Lyxal

23:41

@user he'll get used to it eventually

caird coinheringaahing

Well, I'm eating day old chow mein so I'm fine :P

user

That's what I'm afraid of

Bubbler

Redwolf Programs

Soon the symptoms of stage two Lyxal-itis will start. Compulsive rickrolling. Saying Frick all the time. Adding flags to Add++.

caird coinheringaahing

Add++ has flags

Redwolf Programs

23:42

Oh :(

user

Oh no!

Redwolf Programs

It's severe then

Bubbler

Somehow I managed to beat Adam in the negative yearly rep, but I'm not at the top :(

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing That means it's too late!

caird coinheringaahing

But sensible ones -f and it's verbose version --flag

Redwolf Programs

23:43

It was nice knowing you, caird

user

Pretty soon your profile will be verbose memes

Bye

caird coinheringaahing

I don't think I've ever used flags to improve my score in Add++

user

I hope Australia treats you well

Redwolf Programs

And you'll spend all day watching videos like this

caird coinheringaahing

@user You'll take this the wrong way, but I'm considering applying to uni in Australia :P

user

23:44

No no no save yourself while you can!

Redwolf Programs

It's worse than I thought

user

(Good luck btw)

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms See, normal flags!

Redwolf Programs

Okay good, you're showing signs of recovery

rak1507

no bad flags are bad cheaty metagolfscript

Lyxal

23:46

*looks at japt with its flags*

rak1507

japt is also bad

user

Looks at JS

rak1507

flags should be counted as part of the score

caird coinheringaahing

Japt and Vyxal are the worst offenders when it comes to flags

rak1507

imo

user

23:46

Wait is the UN bad?

rak1507

there's no reason why not

Redwolf Programs

Agreed

user

They have so many flags

Redwolf Programs

Let's golf the UN! Wait no

rak1507

@user groan

caird coinheringaahing

23:47

@rak1507 it's incredibly inconsistent in scoring different languages

Redwolf Programs

Plus flag-having languages still have a massive advantage

rak1507

idk if you can put half the program in the flags for free I think there's a problem

flags should be banned then

death to flags

Redwolf Programs

It basically lets you have more than 256 bytes, if that makes sense

user

^

So even if you count flags as part of your code, it's an advantage

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms not really

rak1507

23:48

if you want flags you can do
flags
code

caird coinheringaahing

The meta discussion

Redwolf Programs

I think an answer which has both flags and code should be the sum of those plus one byte

caird coinheringaahing

In short, we had so many "how to score command-line flags when X?" that it's the easiest solution

user

@RedwolfPrograms Theone byte's kinda arbitrary

Redwolf Programs

Not really

That'd be the cost to implement it in the language itself

One byte as a separator

rak1507

23:49

yeah

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Fair enough, it's just kinda cheaty for a golfing language

rak1507

imo that's the most sensible solution

or just put the flags in the code on the first line

or just don't have flags

Redwolf Programs

Actually one byte if it has a flag at all otherwise you get a and -a for free

rak1507

it's an abuse of good faith

Unrelated String

the way flags are handled is each flag combination gets considered a separate language, but then when you have japt/vyxal style flags used the way they are you end up with several languages only one of which would end up being used in any particular situation

user

23:50

@RedwolfPrograms In the language itself, you'd need an escape character or a max of 255 flags (with the 256th character being the separator)

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, true. But that's like 0.01 bytes saved so it's not super significant

Unrelated String

so there's a good argument to be made to vring back flag scoring

Redwolf Programs

Should I propose my idea there?

caird coinheringaahing

No, bring up a new discussion

rak1507

yes, if you do I will upvote it

Redwolf Programs

23:51

I'll ask another meta question

rak1507

do what caird says he's the boss :P

Lyxal

@rak1507 and ill downvote it

rak1507

@Lyxal :(

user

@rak1507 nO, hE'S nOt ThE bOsS, hE's cAiRd!

rak1507

lol

user

23:52

(no offense Lyxal)

caird coinheringaahing

perl -p 'code' is the default way to run Perl code (I think). add++ -c 'code' runs code in Add++. Should these be counted or not?

Redwolf Programs

No

My idea's ambiguous and therefore bad

caird coinheringaahing

So what flags should be free?

Lyxal

^

Redwolf Programs

I think flags are just annoying however they're allowed (and worse if they aren't before someone suggests that)

caird coinheringaahing

23:53

I think the current consensus is a good compromise

Lyxal

^

Redwolf Programs

Agreed. I don't like it, but any other system would probably be worse.

rak1507

true

Lyxal

Look if the current consensus didn't exist I wouldn't have included flags in either of my golfing languages

rak1507

I'm off to make a new golf lang with compression tacit programming and flags

everything will be 10 bytes max

user

23:54

That's unlikely

rak1507

it will be the most skillful language ever created and I will get 10000 upvotes

user

It won't be TC

@rak1507 Um

caird coinheringaahing

We like to look at Vyxal vs Jelly vs 05AB1E and say "Oh, my lang beats yours", but that's just a bit of being able to say "I won". Ultimately, it doesn't affect anything, and technically by our rules, Vyxal doesn't win, Vyxal m wins

ASCII-only

@rak1507 dzaima wanted to do something like that pretty sure

what you need is probabilisitc markov chains

arithmetic coding

also a huge amount of common snippets

caird coinheringaahing

@rak1507 It'll win any challenge it's used in and get a max of 5 upvotes

Maybe 10

user

23:55

I was thinking of doing a Huffman encoding sort of thing for Husk (and other languages) to compress a bit based on the most common monograms and bigrams

caird coinheringaahing

Gotta loving voting culture :/

ASCII-only

huffman encoding? more like waste of bits :p

Lyxal

And besides, vyxal never actually wins. It's vyxal -j (or whatever flag combo you use) that wins

ASCII-only

@rak1507 this already exists

it's called sledgehammer

rak1507

yeah

user

23:56

Idea: On the Tour page, use subliminal imaging to make new users just automatically get how CGCC works

Also Stax

Lyxal

@user we already thought of that

Unrelated String

stax is just bit packing

Lyxal

@user what's wrong with stax?

user

Why didn't y'all implement it?

ASCII-only

@Lyxal is vyxal just perl v2?

caird coinheringaahing

23:57

Stax's compression is kinda annoying

user

@Lyxal Nothing, I'm just saying it compresses code, kinda like rak's idea

ASCII-only

since when was vyxal one of the top golflangs

Lyxal

@ASCII-only since it's fizzbuzz is 11 bytes

I'm still waiting for the Elo list to update

caird coinheringaahing

@ASCII-only It's the most prominent example that uses flags in every answer to shave multiple bytes

Lyxal

Almost every answer

Wezl

23:58

golfing in r5rs scheme is so much more fun. Program has a very countable size, and there is a reasonable amount of builtins

or r7rs-small or whatever, though I haven't tried that

hyper-neutrino

my favorite golfing language is java for its conciseness

7

Lyxal

@hyper-neutrino mood

Transcript for