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4:03 PM
My another sandboxed challenge, please give feedback!
4:14 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Delfad0rLargest Compatible Maze code-challengemazeoptimization Background Consider an \$n\times n\$ grid, where each cell is either empty (denoted by.) or a wall (denoted by #). We say that two cells are adjacent if they share an edge (a corner is not enough). A path is a sequence of empty cells \$s_0,s_...

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

WasifMatching to Homologous group code-golf, chemistry, string Homologous series, any of numerous groups of chemical compounds in each of which the difference between successive members is a simple structural unit. As an example, Alkane is a homologous group where the chemical compounds are in \$C_nH_...

How does the sandbox user have 5 rep?
pbly two suggesated edits
@pxeger Bots get 5 rep when they start out because they're superior to people and less likely to abuse their power.
@pxeger Likely the mods asked a CM to set it's rep at 5
@cairdcoinheringaahing oh, so it's able to post on meta
4:26 PM
@pxeger Yeah, before the rep requirement changed
> mini-edit to gain enough rep to participate on meta; don't mind me ~Doorknob
so we're both right
Hmm, there are 3 users with more meta gold badges than Sandbox (3): Dennis (5), Martin (11) and Alex A (4)
Famous Question, Popular Question, and what else?
Oh Stellar Question
That badge name doesn't make as much sense with bookmarks as it did with stars
4:48 PM
who gives the bot 5 rep?
It just suggested 2 edits (got mod approved by Doorknow) and got awarded +4 (+2 for each edit)
Also the bot dosen't seem to have the silver and gold badges anymore.....
Are you on its main or meta account?
I wouldn't really call it a bot though, since it doesn't really do anything
4:50 PM
@RedwolfPrograms oh i was in the main account sorry
You have different badges on your main/meta account :)
@RedwolfPrograms its hosting our sandbox questions...
Also is the PPCG sandbox the question with most answers all through the Stack exchange?
Yeah, but it hasn't logged into Stack Exchange for 7 years:
> Last seen Sep 22 '14 at 21:14
@Wasif Almost definitely
@cairdcoinheringaahing I am feeling proud
We've definitely got a history of taking SE's features way beyond their intended limits :p
4:53 PM
You could probably make an SEDE query to search every site for the question with the most answers
Anyone who can give me a question which has more answers than Sandbox I'll give him/her a +200 bounty (seriously)
I am seriously impressed by the golfing in this question. I am 100% nominating at least one user for Best of 2021 from there.
@RedwolfPrograms Delfad0r's tanh trick is definitely worth a nomination for Best Mathematical Insight
Yes, he (Delfad0r) has also other very impressive answers recently
That questions shows why I love @Arnauld because he puts the most interesting, not the shortest, solutions at the top of his answers
4:59 PM
Is there have been any meta thread for best of 2021?
@Wasif A bit early, no?
@Wasif Wait until Jan 2022 :P
Jan 22?
January 2022, when the nomination post will go up
because Best Of threads are for the year that's just passed
5:00 PM
Until then, bookmark the question with any impressive answers you might want to nominate :)
I remember I was not active then :-(
@cairdcoinheringaahing Can <1k users see them?
How are you measuring controversialness?
@Wasif The vote counts? I believe so but I'm not sure
5:02 PM
Yeah, anyone can see them
In SEDE at least
@RedwolfPrograms down > (up * 0.5)
It has more downvotes than half it's upvotes
I'm going to make my own query, that uses my controversialness rating method :p
How many users on the site can do X?, where X are the site privileges
Lyxal will like the number of 20k+ users we have :P
Then what's the need of 1k privilige
@Wasif Seeing vote counts? Nothing really, unfortunately
It's kinda one of the privileges they give you so you have a new "toy" to keep you interested until 2k (similar to "protect questions" at 15k (new toy between 10k and 20k, which are actual power privileges))
5:09 PM
hehe the SE mechanism is interesting
1k, 5k and 15k are sort of "nothing" privileges, as you can either do them already with a userscript (at 1k) or you won't really use the privilege (5k/15k)
@cairdcoinheringaahing Say what?? I can't wait to be able to approve tag wiki edits
Whatever that means
one thing bothers me that seeing the deleted question don't affect the author's privacy?
@Delfad0r Every tag has a tag wiki (using as an example) which has more detailed information on when to use them. Anyone can edit them (literally, this has no minimum rep requirement), but only 20k+ users can do so without approval
@Wasif When you upload a post to SE, you release it under the CC-BY-SA license (details) which means that, essentially, it is no longer your private work, but is now in the public. Because of that, you forfeit the right to "privacy" on anything you choose to post on SE
(Not a lawyer, take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt)
The more I use SQL the more confused I get
5:16 PM
@RedwolfPrograms Watch the prequel first, then
@user We will watch your career with great interest :P
Always sucks when you watch the third/sixth movie first and you have no idea why a bunch of people with glowing sticks are throwing each other into glowing marmalade.
CMP: Star Wars or Star Trek?
@cairdcoinheringaahing "Welcome to PPCG!"?
Why does this work but this doesn't?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!!??!!??!?!?!?11?????
5:20 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh wait, I didn't see it was for CGCC
I hate SQL so much, in case this was not an obvious fact
@RedwolfPrograms And yet you like Javascript...
I can look at JS and know what's going on
I would say SQL is even worse than JS
Isn't SQL barely TC?
SQL is worse than JS in every way, and that includes the awful standardization
5:22 PM
Even someone who doesn't know a lot of JS can hack a query together somehow, but SQL is so complicated
That said, JS sucks. Burn it to the last npm package.
SQL can't even figure out how to be capitalized. At least anyone who knows a C-based language (probably 99% of developers) can roughly understand JS.
@user I really don't like NPM or Node
Node takes all the familiarity and wrecks it
NPM's just annoying
I've heard multithreaded Node is pretty fast
So is falling off a cliff and they both make my head hurt
That's the only thing that happened when you fell off a cliff? What are you, Redwolf Programs?
I like that of the most repeated on CGCC, so many are "Welcome to..." The friendliness is one thing I love about this site
Welcome to Code Golf! Nice first answer.
That's mine!
That's my comment!
I'm famous!
5:27 PM
Unless it's one of mine :P
I think you have an older version that uses a comma instead of a !
Welcome to the site, [and] nice first answer!
Nah, I updated it to use a ! (and to link to the Welcome Meta posts)
> How does this work?
Also Welcome to Code Golf, nice first answer!
High rep users who don't upvote that much (basically "how close do your gained rep and your given rep match?")
5:33 PM
There are users there with almost as many downvotes as upvotes, which is surprising for a site like CGCC
Who is ceilingcat and why have 47 people said Thanks! or Thank you. to them?
Is it allowed to answer this in GolfScript, APL, J, K, etc.?
I've voted to close this question as unclear as "any programming languages that are known to produce short programs" is not properly specified — caird coinheringaahing 30 secs ago
5:54 PM
I love how even in 2012 people hated that restriction
I'd also challenge the notion that golfscript is known to produce short programs :p
Yeah, that's definitely aged well :P
Tells you the number of days between you joining and you earning whatever badge you query
My hobby: Taking other people's public API keys so I don't have to bother with registering my own
(kidding of course :p)
@RedwolfPrograms Personally, I prefer to take their private keys :P
they should add @everyone to SE chat
6:00 PM
God no
I wonder how many requests it would take to scrape all of the data on the API
i see nothing that could go wrong with this idea
Maybe if it was just room-based (i.e. ping everyone in that room)
/me is halfway through registering an account named everyone just for the one joke
Just change your username :P
6:06 PM
Starting on my SEDE clone. It won't be able to handle comments or users, but it'll update four times per day and use a reasonable language instead of SQL
I'll call it RDPT (Redwolf's Data Processing Thing)
Oh wait
Getting all of the data on the site at a rate of one page every ten seconds would still take five hours
Maybe that's not a good idea
@RedwolfPrograms You do know that SEDE is hosted by StackExchange and so can literally just plug into their databases and search, right?
Which is why this might not be as possible as I imagined
Except for small queries
Huh, never knew this existed. For <10k users, the question reads:
> Can you create a clever or unexpected Fibonacci generator?

Your code must print or return either the nth Fibonacci number or the first n Fibonacci numbers.
It's at +164 net, and has multiple answers scoring over 100
I think for a popcon it's actually not that bad
The task is clear enough, it could just be edited a bit to add some explanation
I have nothing against popcons, when the task is clearly specified and interesting, and I think that fits both
It completely lacks an OWC tho
And when Shog brings up a question, you know something's up with it :P
6:14 PM
What do you mean? It's tagged as a popcon right?
If "cleverness" was the WC it's not objective, but if it was reworded a bit to make that the goal and votes the criterion, it'd be objective
@RedwolfPrograms Tagging a question popcon doesn't give it an OWC (at least IMO), which is one of the biggest problems with popcons: people think they can just slap onto any shit question and make it on-topic
I think it should be closed or locked in its current state, but not deleted
TBH it got deleted by the Roomba (I'm guessing the ClosedMigratedQuestions roomba), not by a user
Have a look at the revisions though :P
> Code Chess: Fibonacci Sequence
Building upon the proven success of Code Golf, I would like to introduce Code Chess.

Unlike Code Golf, which strives for concision, Code Chess will strive for cleverness.

Can you create a clever or unexpected Fibonacci generator?

Your code must print or return either the nth Fibonacci number or the first n Fibonacci numbers
@RedwolfPrograms A very helpful user who suggests golfs on C and Java answers.
Makes sense
6:20 PM
@RedwolfPrograms You could VTuD if you wanted to, now that you have 10k :P Wait, no, it's locked, my bad
Wait how? I don't see a button anywhere
Any feecback? (especially how to keep people from using brute force)
I suppose if you have a high enough \$n\$ then brute-force is impractical, but you'd need quite a high \$n\$
For a 100 byte program and an n of 20 it's totally impractical, so it shouldn't be that hard to make it brute force resistant
Right, but you want to decrease n to make your score better, so if someone has n=1, it won't work :(
6:31 PM
Is the program's size part of the scoring criterion?
No, just n
And for robbers, how many answers you crack, I guess?
I'd suggest it should be, otherwise you could create a huge program (a la Lenguage but better) and have a very low n
Maybe make it nCr
Hmm, maybe program size times n?
@RedwolfPrograms Get that pun/math out of here! :P
E.g. a Jelly program made up of just a whole bunch of compressed strings where if you remove 1 character and change the indexing slightly it works, for like n = 3 and length of 1000+
6:32 PM
@user It's not a pun, it's the number of combinations that you'd need to brute force
Oh wait unless they have to be adjacent
I meant the challenge is also a CnR
Ohhhh looool
Unintentional pun
@RedwolfPrograms Oh I didn't know that, I just recognized weird math notation :P
@RedwolfPrograms They don't
Someone go suggest an edit, I'm 1 Suggested Edit review away from Reviewer :D
Yeah, I'd just make the score nCr, with lower ones being better. That way the score scales directly with the difficulty of brute forcing.
6:35 PM
(\$\binom n r\$ in Mathjax)
@RedwolfPrograms Um, how do you calculate that? Asking for a friend with the same challenge :P
@user $$\frac {n!} {r! (n-r)!}$$
Review stalker broken for anyone else?
@RedwolfPrograms Working here
@cairdcoinheringaahing Thanks
I find it galling that no one clicked on the link I put in that draft.
6:39 PM
Restarting my laptop fixed it, nvm
Okay, for Hunter-Gatherer KotH, I'm trying to decide what different types of tools I should add
Originally I had spears (for fighting only), axes (for breaking stuff only), and shovels (for making farmland only)
However, shovels seem kind of useless currently and axes are weird because I feel like they shouldn't be able to break stone walls
Time machines to get past stone walls?
Maybe I can have axes, pickaxes, and shovels, then axes can be used for combat as well and pickaxes can be required for mining bronze and iron ore?
Stones to throw over walls and fight people?
But then I would be removing spears (which fit best with the theme) and not shovels (which are mostly pointless still)
Maybe add rams for breaking stone walls and keep axes for breaking other stuff only
6:44 PM
if you add different types of damage, then set stone walls to be resistant to slashing damage
but vulnerable to bludgeoning damage
Maybe shovels could be useful for breaking stone things, like walls and ores?
I think that seems a bit unrealistic
Maybe hammers?
Those sound good
I doubt people would try breaking stone walls irl, they might just go over them
I guess I could just get rid of the concept of farmland and just have grain be planted on plain land
6:47 PM
Hunter-gatherers didn't really farm, though, did they?
No, but they didn't use iron tools either :p
It's kind of spanning from hunter gatherer all the way to iron age
Like they could sort of progress up to farming and building cities
Oh I see
Maybe add fire for wider damage to farmland?
I don't know, seems like it could be kind of a complicated mechanic
Probably, yeah :\
I think spears will be a weapon that is durable and does a reasonable amount of damage, and axes and hammers will break faster if used as weapons but do a lot more damage
Or maybe they'll use a lot more hunger
Either way I definitely like the distinction between axes and hammers for breaking different types of things
7:03 PM
is anyone math clever enough to be able to help please. How many terms are in the sum for q_i at the bottom of math.stackexchange.com/a/4096918/678546 ?
I want to write code to compute it but I am having problems understanding exactly how the sum works
7:15 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Can we not simply remove the restriction? "Please" isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but more akin to those asking to "please explain your solution" etc.
@Adám We could, but the challenge itself isn't all that great either. We'd be better off posting an updated version and dupe-closing the older one IMO
Well, at least I outgolfed all the existing answers ― in APL.
using ⌂kt is boring
doing it for real isn't very hard anyway
I just thought it'd be a nice closure to the challenge ;-)
3 hours later…
10:25 PM
Does anyone else have difficulties remembering what day of the week it is? I'm seriously thinking today is Saturday when it's actually Monday.
Feb 28 at 1:17, by caird coinheringaahing
idk the physics behind it, but time has been on some hardcore drugs for the past 18 months
Especially with the pandemic, days just blur into one another
@Lyxal yep
@cairdcoinheringaahing now how did I know that was going to be what you replied with? :p
10:40 PM
Gotta love it when you're trying to find the source of a quote and this happens :\
@Lyxal It's the fifth time someone's said that.
11:33 PM
The site has got a few well-known, prominent "issues" (e.g. voting, Sandbox, new users to name a few). Multiple people have labelled pretty much all of these as the "biggest issue facing our site" over the years. So, an (informal) poll:
CMP: what do you think is the single biggest issue/problem/etc. with the site at the moment? How should we go about fixing it?
Personally, I think it's the failure to properly introduce new users to the site, and I've been posting fairly often on meta trying to find ways to fix this
@cairdcoinheringaahing golf langs, we can't
@cairdcoinheringaahing honestly (and this is serious), the lack of items in the review queues. Like we get moderation tools and we can't actually use them.
@Lyxal How would you suggest we fix that? And, is it something that should be fixed? Surely, fewer things to review is a good thing?
@Lyxal Do you mean that people aren't flagging stuff enough, there aren't enough First Posts and Late Answers, or you just want SO levels of spam? :P
@user I'm saying the moderation tools here feel underwhelming, probably due to a larger problem of not enough activity happening.
11:37 PM
@rak1507 Is that Yoda-speak? "We can't golf languages" (with golf being a verb)
@Lyxal Oh ok, so you want the community to grow?
@user I think that's more what I want, yes.
@rak1507 Seriously though, what did you mean? It sounds very cryptic
that's a very weird take
11:38 PM
A very weird take, that is
@Lyxal That's definitely a problem (and also more general): the site basically just has "bursts" of activity when you do things, otherwise it's just hanging around TNB and the front page
@user the biggest problem is the use of golf langs, and also lax io somewhat, and it can't be fixed
@rak1507 I don't see how it's a problem
@cairdcoinheringaahing so how do we bring more people in?
that's because you're ok with it, which is fine, but a lot of people aren't, see the 1000 meta posts by new users for evidence
11:39 PM
@Lyxal Advertising is probably the most effective way
but where?
where do we advertise?
@rak1507 I'd say their objection is unjustified, although the ridiculous number of votes trivial builtin-only answers get is a problem.
@user A lot of people dislike golfing languages, thinking they "dilute" the point of golf. It's a matter of opinion though, and so is just as valid as the opposite. The site policy of "Just ignore them" is probably the best compromise
So I guess that goes back to welcoming new users
@Lyxal NGL if we could set up an ad on SO that directed people here via some kind of welcome page (e.g. the one I posted a couple of months back), we'd probably increase user activity by a lot
Twitter and Reddit are filled with bored coders, if we could attract them to the site, we'd explode
11:41 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Someone put it rather nicely once: golfing languages let you work on a problem at a more abstract level without worrying about boilerplate. I'd say they purify golf more
@cairdcoinheringaahing We hit HNQ regularly already, but it doesn't seem to help :\
@user HNQ only exposes us to regulars on the SE network
Axtell looked cool, but it seems to be dead :(
@cairdcoinheringaahing so how best would an ad be worded for a place like reddit?
@user probably bc all the normal people who expect to see python java js etc see 9 bytes of unicode rubbish and decide never to visit again
11:43 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh, finally a sub I'm not going to hate!
Advertising there, on the language specific subreddits, on r/ProgrammerHumor and r/programming would promote the site
@user It's not very good, unfortunately
@cairdcoinheringaahing :(
@cairdcoinheringaahing I'll see if I can think of ways to make efficient posts
I recognize chunes (the Factor user)!
I know that programmerhumor sees kindly to code golf - my 18 byte fizzbuzz got 25 upvotes
(on reddit that is)
11:45 PM
Honestly, the biggest problem with expanding the userbase is that we have to do it properly, or else people will just post shitty challenges, then complain that we aren't a welcoming site
Like SO
Which is why there need to be edits to the Tour page and stuff, ig
@rak1507 give me a second to find it
Introducing people to the site through impressive answers, or through questions that they reckon they could answer. Don't encourage people to ask first, encourage answering, as every programmer under the sun reckons they can code something "easy" to whatever challenges we show them
people will just post shitty challenges, then complain that we aren't a welcoming site It's... pretty much true as is
11:46 PM
there's the other potential uncomfortable reality that code golf is a niche activity for strange people and there's not much expansion even possible
@rak1507 :(
That hurt
@rak1507 The fact that we haven't died out as a site after 10 years suggests otherwise :P
@Bubbler It's not as bad as more active sites, though
@Bubbler Yeah, how do we change that though?
@cairdcoinheringaahing well yeah, there will always be people who want to do it, but how many will there be really?
Take a look at Why are you here? It's a surprisingly good insight into why other people joined the site
Imagine not using the redesign
> I noticed a post called Most common number on the Hot Network Questions sidebar, from some site called "Programming Puzzles & Code Golf." So I took a look at the question. "I know how to do this," I thought to myself, "this is just asking to find the mode of a list. Easy peasy, lemon sqeezy." So I made an account on the site and posted my answer. "Alright, that was fun," I thought. "Well, back to Stack Overflow."
@cairdcoinheringaahing Random idea: make "ask question" privilege unlock at 100 rep
11:49 PM
That's how Alex A, once one of the most active users and an ex-mod, found the site
@cairdcoinheringaahing That's kinda what happened to me too :P
It's a good thing if a new user posts an answer first. Bad things usually happen when a new user tries to post a challenge first
@Bubbler 50 rep may be more fair, although we shouldn't count association bonuses.
FYI Alex's answer is one of the best posts I've read on the site for "Why does this place even exist?" It perfectly demonstrates exactly the kind of users who will contribute to the site in a positive way, and it distils the essence of the site so perfectly
@Bubbler Honestly, I think even as low as 5 rep would do
You either answer a question or you provide 2 helpful edits. Either way, it shows some understanding of the site at a level most new users won't have
Makes sense
Btw, my first activity on the site was an answer to an unanswered question :)
11:59 PM
Year	# of 100+ Qs
2021	0
2020	1
2019	2
2018	4
2017	17
2016	17
2015	26
2014	39
2013	4
2012	3
2011	9
This is an interesting site
So I did a bit of counting, and got those results
I expected older questions to have more upvotes
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