The Nineteenth Byte

New Main Posts

00:00

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What does "jelly" mean in the title?. Robber's thread Jelly has an "Evaluate the argument as Python 3" atom, ŒV which takes a string as an argument as evaluates that string as Python 3 code: Try it online!. It also has compressed strings, delimited with “...» that can compress any string containi...

Lyxal

@NewMainPosts the robbers thread better be called "I'm Python of Jelly"

ChartZ Belatedly

@NewMainPosts Really? You make me wait a minute between posting the Cops and the Robbers threads, but don't even wait for the Robbers?

Lyxal

This is irony.

ChartZ Belatedly

Bet you it takes like 10 minutes to post the Robbers thread :P

New Main Posts

00:25

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Q: I'm Jelly of Python (Robbers)

What does "jelly" mean in the title?. Cop's thread Robbers, you are to choose an uncracked Cop answer, and attempt to find a Jelly program which is: shorter than the Cop's answer solves the linked challenge, according to the rules of the challenge So long as these two bullet points are met, you...

code-golf cops-and-robbers python jelly

ChartZ Belatedly

@NewMainPosts 23 minutes. I'm disappointed in you

rak1507

can't wait for 0 safe answers

ChartZ Belatedly

Well, there's only 10 days left of "ChartZ Belatedly" before I become "caird" again :P

in Jelly Hypertraining, Nov 7 '19 at 16:16, by caird coinheringaahing

CMC: Remove the first occurrence of each element of a list of numbers. [1, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3] -> [1, 2, 1, 3]

rak1507

dyalog extended: ~⍤⍧⍛/⍨

jelly: œ-Q

ChartZ Belatedly

@rak1507 Nice, that's what I had (although not what I had back in 2019) :P

rak1507

00:39

I didn't look, wanted to avoid spoilers

I think there's multiset difference in NARS2000 too, so it could potentially be short in that

HyperNeutrino

i'm disappointed in myself

the solution i first through of was iⱮQḟ@Jị

;-;

rak1507

lol

the thing is, you actually know jelly, I was just like 'lol this is a multiset difference with the unique elements I bet jelly has builtins for both things' and it does! no skill required ~~just like every jelly solution~~

HyperNeutrino

my first thought was "it would be nice to just use Q and then remove them but only once" but i just thought the second part was not short enough to be viable

in Jelly Hypertraining, Jul 27 '17 at 21:44, by totallyhuman

jelly is really just a game of atom hide and programmer seek

rak1507

lol so true

ChartZ Belatedly

Me, Unrelated String and Mr Xcoder found multiple 5 byte solutions, but no 3 byte one :P

rak1507

00:42

noobs

ChartZ Belatedly

@HyperNeutrino Bullshit. Sometimes quicks get involved :P

Jelly programs with just atoms are easy, it's those damn quicks that complicate everything :P

HyperNeutrino

true :P

rak1507

I feel like there must be a shorter apl solution but I can't find it so oh well

HyperNeutrino

quicks are necessary for jelly's turing completeness, right?

ChartZ Belatedly

Yeah, otherwise it can't loop

Although, I suppose not, as V might be able to recurse, and ŒV can execute arbitrary python code

HyperNeutrino

00:45

oh wait yeah eval atom exists

lol

iS jElLy turing complete with just quicks /s

wait actually

since there are zero-argument quicks

nah this probably can't work

ChartZ Belatedly

Wait, there's no way to do any kind of condition branching without quicks, so Jelly (ignoring ŒV) needs quicks to be TC

HyperNeutrino

could you get around that with logical AND/OR short-circuiting?

rak1507

dzaima APL: ~∘⍧⌿⊢

ChartZ Belatedly

@HyperNeutrino Nope, because you'd need either Ç or one of $ to do anything that used more than 1 atom

(as µ doesn't work with short-circuiting)

Ignoring ŒV, is Jelly TC?

Like, probably, but has it been proven?

rak1507

someone has probably done brainfuck in jelly so yes

HyperNeutrino

00:49

what's sufficient to prove TC

implement R110?

ChartZ Belatedly

Implement brainfuck

I typically look at this answer

(FYI, there isn't a Jelly answer for that question)

HyperNeutrino

lol js is fantastically weird

ChartZ Belatedly

No Jelly answer here either :P

HyperNeutrino

could you cheese it with V? (probably, but idk if it would actually be easy)

ChartZ Belatedly

That was my thinking

Transpile then eval is Jelly's forte in interpreter chalenges

Lyxal

00:54

Here's a potentially easier challenge for proving TC: Volatile

ChartZ Belatedly

Turn it into a series of monadic links which pass the tape to each other. Implement > as rotating the tape so that the tape head is always the first element

rak1507

01:10

@NewMainPosts well this is going well

New Meta Posts

02:12

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Q: Introducing OldSandboxPosts

My name is OldSandboxPosts and I am a chatbot written by caird coinheringaahing and hosted by Redwolf Programs. My source code an be found here. Every day, at 1:00am UTC time, I log onto Stack Exchange, find Sandbox proposals that have been inactive for a week and post a chat message linking to t...

discussion feature-request chat

Redwolf Programs

I hit 9k!

Lyxal

this is very good

I am very happy with this

now you just need to make ash

finish making that is

Redwolf Programs

I just need to work up the motivation to work on the parser. It scares me.

rak1507

02:57

@RedwolfPrograms gg

Redwolf Programs

03:17

@rak1507 I seriously disagree that golfing in Jelly requires no skill

rak1507

it was ~~mostly~~ a joke

Redwolf Programs

I ~~mostly~~ know, it just annoys me when people talk about golfing languages like that

And there are a lot of people who actually do think that's true of golfing languages

Lyxal

It's true of Vyxal!

You just mash built-ins together

and it does stuff

;p

\s

rak1507

@RedwolfPrograms for trivial challenges, it is true, doesn't stop them getting 3579 upvotes

HyperNeutrino

oh boy

Redwolf Programs

03:21

But golfed answers also get unfair downvotes for being golfing langs

HyperNeutrino

skill correlation to deserving and receiving votes is a whole other can of worms

Redwolf Programs

Agreed

rak1507

yeah true

Redwolf Programs

For this site, the amount of rep given by upvotes really should be based on the voter's reputation IMO

And maybe even have it affect the vote count itself

rak1507

that would be an interesting change

Redwolf Programs

03:25

I am going to track down whoever decided apostrophes go next to the enter key and send them a strongly worded letter

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms include me in the letter too

I'd like to send my opinion too

Redwolf Programs

It'd probably get sent before I meant to though

Lyxal

that's what i call funny

HyperNeutrino

yeah it's pretty annoying how often i'm writing something and accidentally send it early because i

5

Razetime

@RedwolfPrograms this would be an interesting system

Lyxal

03:30

@HyperNeutrino it seems your message got a bit cut of

Razetime

it'd probably have to be a floating point number underneath but show up rounded down

something like ELO, but it never goes down

HyperNeutrino

@Lyxal yeah i was trying to hit the apostrophe but my finger slipped, pretty unfortunate that the key

i usually actually end up accidentally hitting ; instead of ' when i'm typing because i'm being overly cautious of accidentally hitting enter, which is better because i can fix that but once i send it it's sent

more commonly i'll accidentally hit backslash as i hit enter and send a random backslash at the end of my message\

Redwolf Programs

I also do the ; instead of ' thing all the time

Maybe the apostrophe key just needs to be wider

Actually just replace the enter key with more apostrophe

HyperNeutrino

which finger do you press ' with

Redwolf Programs

Whichever one I'm typing with at the time :p

HyperNeutrino

03:39

lol :P

i pretty consistently use my right index finger

which now that i think about it

is probably one of the worst fingers i could use other than my thumb

Redwolf Programs

I usually use my middle fingers to type

HyperNeutrino

oh like you type with just two fingers? huh

Redwolf Programs

I've done it for so long I can type that way without looking for a while

HyperNeutrino

that's pretty interesting

Razetime

I type with both hands but it's not touch typing it's some weird thing that just automatically developed

HyperNeutrino

03:42

i usually don't use my 5th finger except to hit ctrl/shift but my finger positioning is pretty unconventional i think

at least it's very far off of what any typing course i can find online would recommend lol

Redwolf Programs

I don't golf a pencil correctly either

*hold

HyperNeutrino

have you tried sharpening it? that usually shortens it by a bit

Razetime

also long as you can write it's correct

@HyperNeutrino removing the eraser helps as well

HyperNeutrino

idk if how i hold my writing utensils is "correct" or not but it works, i guess :P

@Razetime true. also obligatory -1 with jQuery

Redwolf Programs

I sort of put the pencil on top of my ring finger, and hold it in place with the three above it

It might be part of why my handwriting more resembles abstract art

HyperNeutrino

03:46

huh

so like, the position you'd hold the lower chopstick in?

(just occurred to me that that may not make any sense, so nvm if it doesn't lol)

Razetime

@HyperNeutrino does sound like it

Redwolf Programs

04:35

Any feedback on Reverse Zip Bomb?

HyperNeutrino

05:01

I think it looks good

compression algorithms are basically bijections from any string of bits to a subset of all strings of bits, right? so every compression algo has to have something that compresses to larger than the original data?

Redwolf Programs

Yep, and hopefully some that are a lot larger for this to be interesting :p

HyperNeutrino

intuition tells me that the better a compression algorithm is for general data with normal patterns, the worse its worst case will be, but idk if that makes any sense :P

pxeger

09:37

Should integer be merged with number?

It seems to me that all number posts can be replaced by one or more of integer math or number-theory

Unrelated String

10:11

(also sequence)

pxeger

No, not necessarily. Not all sequences are of numbers (example), and not all number questions are about sequences (example).

Unrelated String

you mentioned number-theory so figured you weren't going for total overlap lol

pxeger

oh ok

New Sandboxed Posts

10:36

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Fibonacci Encoding code-golf fibonacci coding-theory integer binary Fibonacci coding is a universal code, which can encode positive integers of any size in an unambiguous stream of bits. To encode an integer \$ n \$: Find the largest Fibonacci number less than or equal to \$ n \$; subtract this ...

ChartZ Belatedly