The Nineteenth Byte

Adám

00:00

@dzaima Not sure. Note that it also says that The tokens ⍺ ⍺⍺ ⍵ ⍵⍵ can be used anywhere in the function. For parsing purposes, ⍺ and ⍵ are treated as arrays while ⍺⍺ and ⍵⍵ are functions., so I'm not entirely sure how to write p(+⍤q)⍹ where p and q both are non-magic arrays.

ASCII-only

@Downgoat hello world

Adám

@dzaima I'm also not sure why that's not written as (⌽⍤⍺)⍹ which avoids an intermediary derived monadic operator.

Downgoat

@ASCII-only oh... good point

dzaima

@Adám oh right (dop fn) is valid thing. :| me

Downgoat

ive wanted to add top level expression support for a while but not sure what order to execute in...

ASCII-only

00:03

@Downgoat top to bottom

Pavel

@ASCII-only I think he means if function definitions should go up first

ASCII-only

hoisting? IMO, no

Adám

@dzaima The whole thing makes me somewhat uneasy, tbh.

ASCII-only

wow, there are a lot of parenthesis languages. we need more on TIO

Pavel

I too vote against hoisting

dzaima

00:07

in statically compiled languages not hoisting most of the time is just a very arbitrary restriction imo

ASCII-only

of course. but it doesn't make sense

it's like time traveling

Downgoat

@ASCII-only but like if multiple files?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat still top to bottom

Pavel

@dzaima F# is interesting in that it puts all the code in a strict order, including the order files go in

Downgoat

@ASCII-only yeah but which file goes first

ASCII-only

00:09

@Downgoat import order

Pavel

If File A.fs depends on B.fs, fsharpc A.fs B.fs will fail since it'll put B after A.

dzaima

what if function a wants to call b but b wants to call a?

ASCII-only

except circular imports. hmm

Downgoat

@ASCII-only no imports in VSL you just use glob to specify all sources

Pavel

let rec a() = g() and g() = a() // F# mutual recursion

ASCII-only

00:09

@Downgoat oh

Pavel

@dzaima ^^

There's a special and keyword

dzaima

@Pavel but that ugly

ASCII-only

@Downgoat is there main

Downgoat

@ASCII-only there is main function but that would be called after top level expression

Pavel

@dzaima It's pretty rare that you ever need it, really.

dzaima

00:11

@Pavel ok sure, but a special syntax for a thing that could easily be fixed by not being very annoying otherwise

ASCII-only

@Downgoat hmm. this will be a problem. how to find out order if program doesn't state order

unless, assume main file executes first, import as needed

Pavel

@dzaima It's mostly annoying for classes, since those have to be declared next to each other in the same file with and to be mutually recursive as well

dzaima

@Pavel oh ok thanks for explicitly telling me that F# is literally unusable

Pavel

@dzaima Nah, it really isn't a big deal. Mutually recursive anything is rare, and F# tends to have much smaller classes than C#, consisting of a couple lines at most.

dzaima

this counts as mutually recursive, right?

Pavel

00:14

Yep

dzaima

ok so F# is unusable

Pavel

I'm not sure why you're saying that since what you just did in Java is perfectly possible in F#

dzaima

@Pavel but afaict you need an and in the middle there, and if both of those classes are huge it's forcing placing both in the same file

Pavel

type A =
    member this.b = B()
and type B =
    member this.a = A()

@dzaima They won't be huge though.

F# isn't C# or Java

F# classes are collections of data, you wouldn't normally put methods in them

dzaima

@Pavel ah

Pavel

00:18

Instead, you would write all the functions operating on objects of that type after the definition of the types themselves

Downgoat

@ASCII-only another issue is if two global vars depend on each other one will get undefined value. I'll have to implement some algorithm to identify these cases

ASCII-only

@Downgoat yeah

Pavel

@dzaima Here's how most class definitions look like in F#: type A = { b: B } and type B = { a: A }

The code snippet earlier was the "long form" for full classes that can have methods and constructors and whatnot, but record types which are literally just a couple of values thrown together are more common.

dzaima

oh yep F# is unusable, it declares thing as name: Type ಠ_ಠ

Pavel

@dzaima Only when it isn't inferable

Look at how verbose Haskell type annotations are

@dzaima If you really don't like it though, you can also define record even shorter like this: { a : float; b : int } is equivalent to float * int

You can multiply types together and make new ones

Well, they're not quite equivalent

float * float won't have names for the fields

ASCII-only

00:48

ok. help, how to make an interesting esolang/golflang

trichoplax

Who do you want to interest?

Pavel

Step 1: be ais

ASCII-only

@Pavel or Chris Pressey, right

@trichoplax myself mostly

trichoplax

@ASCII-only Then you can be sure of perfectly honest stakeholder feedback - you should be fine

ASCII-only

the thing is, i don't have any ideas :/

:|

-1

A: "Hello, World!"

brainfuck, 137 bytes ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>>++.>+.+++++++..+++.<<++++++++++++++.------------.>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.<<+. Try it online! Explained : ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>>++. H >+. ...

trichoplax

01:05

Something difficult to use or something fun to write or something fun to read...

1d, 2d, 3d, arbitrary extendable dimensions?

ASCII-only

@trichoplax what's this, (une|be|whatever)funge?

@trichoplax yeah the thing is, there's a 99% chance ais, chris pressey, conor or tux have done it before

trichoplax

Just trying to narrow down what you want to go for...

Deterministic or stochastic?

ASCII-only

anything really

well, I guess it depends what you mean by stochastic

trichoplax

Creative limitation

Creative limitation is the concept of how purposely limiting oneself can actually drive creativity. At a 2013 TED conference, artist Phil Hansen made several remarks concerning the value of limitations, among them that "We need to first be limited in order to become limitless,” and “If you treat the problems as possibilities, life will start to dance with you in the most amazing ways.”Creative limitation can also be thought of as a way to achieve a novel effect or goal that is not otherwise possible using conventional, readily accessible, methods. Igor Stravinsky used what he called creativ...

Maybe having too many options is the problem here

ASCII-only

True. Then deterministic (which is still a heck of a lot of options :P)

trichoplax

01:13

By stochastic I meant that the internal behaviour of the program would be random (even if you can still write a program that gives deterministic output for a given input - it would get there a different way each run)

I didn't mean creative limitation to narrow down just that one choice. I was thinking if you place some arbitrary restrictions on yourself then it may spark creativity

ASCII-only

sure. but i can't think of "arbitrary restrictions" because there are too many options for those too :P

trichoplax

Like "draw a picture" is a hard challenge, because what do you draw? But "draw me a tree" is much easier because you don't have as much choice

@ASCII-only Yeah it comes back to the same problem...

So, do you want someone to impose some ridiculous arbitrary restrictions for you?

ASCII-only

well, not like i can think up of any restrictions myself >_>

trichoplax

How about a continuous alternative to grid-based languages?

ASCII-only

continuous = commands can be at arbitrary (even irrational) points?

@trichoplax

trichoplax

01:27

Yes I was imagining something like a grid, where you move a certain number of squares in one direction, or turn 90 degrees, or read the value of the current square, or write a value to the current square, but without the grid. So you move an arbitrary distance in the current direction, or turn an arbitrary angle from the current direction. Reading and writing would not be to a well defined area like a grid square, but could be an area about the current arbitrary point. Perhaps a Gaussian blur

ASCII-only

hmm. so, kinda like how smoothlife works. also, just the memory and not the code then?

dzaima

or your program is written as an equation that calculates the codepoint at a given coordinate. no, that's too evil.

trichoplax

No idea how you deal with arbitrary numbers (floats/rationals/irrationals), so you'd have to have a fairly tightly defined spec to keep implementations matching

@dzaima Calculated from the surrounding area in a way that's different for each program?

ASCII-only

@trichoplax hmm. why reading/writing in an area though? (seems like it would lead to all sorts of irrational numbers)

trichoplax

@ASCII-only Yes similar to smoothlife. Also, I think smoothlife is approximated by progressively finer grids, so that might be a hint to a way of implementing something like this with only a square grid and floats, but with area of effect when reading and writing being blurred over a large number of squares

dzaima

01:33

@trichoplax why surrounding area? program is just an equation with x and y as variables, and wherever the program pointer is, is input to it

trichoplax

@ASCII-only The other option would be only reading/writing at the current precise point, but that would mean a written point would have no effect on subsequent execution unless you get the pointer back to exactly the same point again

@dzaima I don't have any justification for thinking this is a good idea, just:

19 mins ago, by trichoplax

So, do you want someone to impose some ridiculous arbitrary restrictions for you?

Open to any alternative arbitrary restrictions...

ASCII-only

01:57

oh yeah, @trichoplax would the value of a point on the grid be, say, the total amount of value in a square from (point.x - .5, point.y - .5) to (point.x + .5, point.y + .5)

trichoplax

I was thinking that each time you write, that specific point gets the exact amount you specify, and the points nearby get gradually decreasing amounts as you get further away, that add onto whatever value each point already has (or subtract, if you specify a negative amount)

Or (perhaps equivalently?) you could just write to that exact point, but when you read you get a weighted sum of all the points within some small range

ASCII-only

@trichoplax yeah this is what i'm thinking

trichoplax

Something like a Gaussian blur applied to the point you've just written to smear it out over the plane, with highest values at the centre and fading out with distance

Gaussian blur

In image processing, a Gaussian blur (also known as Gaussian smoothing) is the result of blurring an image by a Gaussian function (named after mathematician and scientist Carl Friedrich Gauss). It is a widely used effect in graphics software, typically to reduce image noise and reduce detail. The visual effect of this blurring technique is a smooth blur resembling that of viewing the image through a translucent screen, distinctly different from the bokeh effect produced by an out-of-focus lens or the shadow of an object under usual illumination. Gaussian smoothing is also used as a pre-processing...

ASCII-only

hmm. square weighting vs circle weighting? (circles may be more expected, but squares would give nice, rational numbers)

also, hmm. looks like gaussian blur has effectively infinite range

trichoplax

You could even make it time based, so each program tick a small amount of Gaussian blur is applied to the entire plane. Each time you write, you write a specific value to the exact point, but each program tick that point spreads out until eventually it has faded to nothing. More recent points are sharper, older points more faded and larger

ASCII-only

02:05

@trichoplax wonder if it's even possible to program anything useful with this :P

trichoplax

@ASCII-only Yes it does. If you have a finite plane that won't matter too much, but on an infinite / arbitrarily large plane you'd probably want to limit calculation to some maximum radius, or minimum value before writing it off as zero

@ASCII-only I have absolutely no idea...

ASCII-only

@trichoplax it seems like n-body simulation algorithms might be useful here. hmm

trichoplax

Wow that looks interesting. Maybe multiple instruction pointers too...

Veskah

02:27

Hmm, I wonder if there's a chess-like Esolang hiding out there.

If there's an incredibly obvious answer, just assume I'm oblivious

Veskah

04:34

Hmm, I've pondered this a bit. 6 piece types, 2 colors, castling, en passant, taking, promotion, checking, and mate. There's a good deal of Opcodes in there

Bubbler

05:21

@Veskah Just chess-themed or actually playing chess?

ais523

06:20

there have been a few attempts at chess-based languages, I'm not sure if any were complete

InfChessPro may be closest

the obvious thing to do from my point of view would be to have an infinitely board that repeats, with the repeat patterns specified by the program, and an area that's an exception to the base pattern (especially as you'd need somewhere to put the Kings!)

and the interpreter just tries to find the optimal move, or at least a move that doesn't immediately lose

this sort of construction normally ends up Turing-complete, but not always

anyway, my advice for creating an esolang:
1. Think of an interesting feature.
2. Create a language with *just* that feature. Remove anything that you'd "expect" to go into a normal programming language, you might not need it.
3. Work out what the language is missing to make it usable for programming (if anything). Then attempt to sketch out a few programs in it (or actually write them if needed).
4. If the language doesn't have infinite memory, give it infinite memory in whatever way is most compatible with the programs you wrote in step 3.

I'd argue that the hardest steps are 1 and 3; 1 requires creativity, 3 requires programming ability (often I've had to get better at programming to be able to work on a language idea of mine)

2 requires discipline but is not all that difficult, so to speak

also, I didn't put "write an interpreter/compiler" anywhere on this list, and it's a step I often forget or fail at in practice, but obviously you'll need that to be able to use the language on PPCG/TIO too

Downgoat

06:52

wtaf swift: tio.run/##Ky7PTCsx@f8/…

ais523

that's just a non-virtual method

Downgoat

@ais523 swift does dynamic dispatch on all methods

i.e. everything is virtual

ais523

AFAICT with a few experiments, if a method is overriden, which overriding version of the method is selected is done virtually

but method overloads are done in a non-virtual manner

so Swift sees two different methods f, neither of which overrides the other, and does overload resolution as is appropriate to an A rather than to a B (because overload resolution is presumably done statically by the compiler)

fwiw, I believe the only "correct" response to that program in a compiled language would be a compile-time error

FWIW, Rust gives the same result as Swift here: Try it online!

I guess that isn't surprising, though, Rust doesn't really have inheritance

New Sandboxed Posts

12:03

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

ABC triples Three positive integers A, B, C are ABC-triple if they are coprime, with A < B and satisfying the relation : A + B = C Examples : 1, 8, 9 is an ABC-triple since they are coprime, 1 < 8 and 1 + 8 = 9 6, 8, 14 is not because they are not coprime 7, 5, 12 is not because 7 > 5 You c...

Neil

12:19

CMC: Given an integer year y and an integer n from 1 to 4, output the day of month of the nth of Advent in the year y

maxb

@Neil Are you allowed to be wrong? In that case I can do it in 1 byte

J. Sallé

@Neil fourth or sixth sunday?

Neil

@maxb ... in that case you could answer all CMCs in 0 bytes...

@J.Sallé ???

J. Sallé

@Neil I thought you were talking about the Christian advent

Neil

@J.Sallé what's the sixth sunday?

J. Sallé

12:26

Some branches of christianism start observing the Advent on the sixth sunday before Christmas

Some on the fourth

Neil

ah, I had no idea, sorry

(also it's Christianity)

but in case you hadn't guessed already from the range of 1 to 4, it's the four Sundays before Christmas

J. Sallé

Yeah I hadn't interpreted it right

ASCII-only

anyone who knows Red here?

J. Sallé

Just woke up from a weekend of stuffing my face with food so I'm still a little addled

wizzwizz4

13:00

I'm curious.

Do any of you drink?

Alcohol, I mean.

J. Sallé

Yes

wizzwizz4

@J.Sallé Why?

It's clearly not because it tastes nice.

I've heard people joking like that xkcd comic about why it's bad, but never an actual reason why people drink it in the first place.

ngn

@wizzwizz4 i've tried not drinking. it's worse :)

J. Sallé

@wizzwizz4 I like it.

Beer and Whiskey, mostly.

wizzwizz4

@J.Sallé The taste?

J. Sallé

13:18

Sure. What else would be there to like? O.o

wizzwizz4

@J.Sallé I don't know.

What baffles me is people who say that it tastes bad, yet continue to drink it.

If you like it then that makes sense.

J. Sallé

I do. Some beers do taste bad, IMO. It's just a matter of finding something you like.

I'm very into dark beers (like Porters and Stouts) and Pale Ales.

Dennis

@wizzwizz4 Your brain eventually associates the taste with how it makes you feel.

Feels good, tastes good.

For the same reason, while your first cigarette tastes like an ash tray, smokers get to like the taste.

I like both, although I don't smoke anymore.

ngn

13:38

alcohol itself is tasteless. the perception of taste is given by other organic compounds made in the process of fermentation or added later

Dennis

I assumed that drinking alcohol referred to alcoholic beverages.

To clarify: I do not drink alcohol.

ngn

most people drink because of the short-term effects - better mood, lowering social inhibitions

J. Sallé

I like my beer with science !

wizzwizz4

@ngn Better mood? Isn't it a depressant?

ngn

@wizzwizz4 not in the short term

J. Sallé

13:41

Well, where I live at least, no social interaction is complete without beer.

Dennis

Same here.

J. Sallé

Especially in the summer, which is the case now.

Dennis

Which is weird, because alcoholic beverages are not refreshing.

The more you drink, the hotter you get.

ngn

and it dehydrates you

FrownyFrog

I thought it’s just not a depressant, if by depressant you mean makes you feel bad

it’s a depressant in a sciency way

wizzwizz4

13:44

@FrownyFrog But also in an actual way.

Dennis

@ngn Which lets you drink more beer, to "rehydrate".

Big Beverage has it all figured out.

@FrownyFrog Many substances can do either X or the opposite, depending on the dosage, whether you're getting high or coming down, and the frequency of use.

FrownyFrog

right

wizzwizz4

@Dennis Dennis knows all.

FrownyFrog

so it can’t be a depressant in that sense

who knows what it will actually do

Dennis

It is a depressant in that sense. It's not required to work at all times and dosages.

FrownyFrog

13:55

it’s a depressant in a technically correct sense

J. Sallé

@Dennis well, Brazilians tend to drink beer as a refresher.

FlipTack

I'd like to add that in a lot of cold countries, spirits are great because they give you a certain warmth that stays inside your chest

Dennis

So do we. I certainly like drinking beer when it's hot.

Drinking to get warm makes a lot more sense though.

J. Sallé

Ice cold, if I can choose.

But yes, I like whiskey but it's barely drinkable here.

FlipTack

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Beer%20coat

"Beer coats"

J. Sallé

13:57

Both quality-wise and for the fact that it's usually hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk.

Dennis

Same here in Paraguay.

If you want to drink whiskey, you have to spring for the imported stuff.

J. Sallé

Exactly

wizzwizz4

@FlipTack But they actually make you colder.

Alcohol messes up your body's thermoregulatory system.

Many people have died by going out in the cold wearing beer "coats".

If your outside gets cold, you're uncomfortable. If your inside gets cold, you're dead.

FlipTack

I'm not saying it's a great way to insulate your body, I'm saying it's a great way to stop feeling the cold

Dennis

@wizzwizz4 You have to drink way too much to get hypothermia though. At that point, I'd be more worried about passing out or respiratory arrest.

ngn

14:05

@wizzwizz4 again, you're mixing up long-term effects with short- (a couple of hours)

J. Sallé

On a side note, just read some news that warmed my core a little: "Owner of racism-fueled forum sentenced to 41yrs of prison."

ngn

in the short term alcohol encourages dilation of the blood vessels, so you feel warmer

H.PWiz

Is there something fishy with this utf-8 (I don't show the actual string, because tio refuses to). Because I can get it on to my clipboard, and I can have it do what I want in a terminal application, but when I paste it into a text box online, including tio's I don't get what I want.

Dennis

Drinking too much water can cause a severe electrolyte imbalance and raise intracraneal pressure. Both can be fatal.

ngn

@Dennis one of them dihydrogen monoxide facts? :D

J. Sallé

14:08

@ngn it's impressive how evil stuff can sound if you just use their IUPAC names

Dennis

@H.PWiz That byte sequence isn't valid UTF-8. Try it online!

H.PWiz

I see what mistake I made now. I thought the xs here could be replaced by any sequence. :(

wizzwizz4

@J.Sallé Its IUPAC name is water.

J. Sallé

@wizzwizz4 you get the gist though

Dennis

When people say water, they rarely mean distilled water though.

You need far less pure H2O for an electrolyte imbalance.

J. Sallé

14:21

Death by osmosis sounds bad.

Dennis

It does. My friend's tumor caused a severe potassium deficiency. Not pretty.

J. Sallé

Yeah, pretty bad indeed.

quartata

14:37

as we near the end of 2081 lets take a moment to look back on some of the great Video Games we got to think about this year

#E32018

Tweeted by quartatertots on June 9, 2018 at 8:29 PM

my personal favorite

wizzwizz4

@quartata I'm so hyped for 2082!

quartata

? thats not how it goes?

2091 is next

wizzwizz4

14:52

@quartata Huh. So not 3081?

You store numbers in little-endian BCDs stored as big-endian shorts?

Leaky Nun

15:45

CMC: given n output a[n] where a[n] = sum[k<n] 2**a[k]. more cookies rewarded for lower time-complexity

also, analyse the time-complexity of the naive solution

wizzwizz4

@LeakyNun You should've warned us that a(6) was very big.

Leaky Nun

warning: a[6] is very big

@wizzwizz4 looks like you have a solution!

Luis Mendo

@quartata Looks great, if only a little complicated. But then, all video games post-80/90's look complicated to me

wizzwizz4

@LeakyNun I had to rewrite it because it crashed my IDE.

def a(n,l=[0]):
 if n<len(l):return l[n]
 a(n-1);l+=sum(map(lambda n:2**l[n],range(n))),;return l[n]

Should be quadratic, I think.

Leaky Nun

are you aiming to be the longest solution?

wizzwizz4

15:56

@LeakyNun I was trying to reduce the time complexity, but just realised that I did a stupid.

Leaky Nun

@wizzwizz4 I don't think your solution is faster than quadratic

I think your solution is about the same as the naive solution

wizzwizz4

@LeakyNun I think it's faster than naive.

Because naive is exponential, I think.

Leaky Nun

ok

I don't think naive is exponential

H.PWiz

@LeakyNun Haskell: f n=sum$(2^).f<$>[1..n-1]

wizzwizz4

@LeakyNun I think this is faster:

def a(n,l=[0],k=[1]):
 if n<len(l):return l[n]
 a(n-1);l+=sum(k[:n]),;k+=2**l[n],;return l[n]

~~But it hangs on a(5), so I think I'm lying.~~ Never mind; my computer just can't cope with such a big number as 2**a(5).

H.PWiz

16:04

@H.PWiz f 1=0;f n|a<-f$n-1=a+2^a

Leaky Nun

no, f 1 is not 0

yeah ok your natural numbers start with 1

i'm sad

H.PWiz

I could change both my solutions at no cost

Leaky Nun

never mind

Dennis

16:17

@LeakyNun Jelly, 6 bytes: Ḷß€2*S

Leaky Nun

@Dennis you're a mathematician right?

Dennis

I am.

Leaky Nun

what's your area of research?

Dennis

Mainly general topology.

Leaky Nun

how general?

Dennis

16:21

General as in non-algebraic, non-differential.

Leaky Nun

so point-set topology?

Dennis

Yes, those are synonyms.

Leaky Nun

I thought point-set topology is the art of coming up with as many properties of a topological space as possible

Luis Mendo

That name, "point-set topology", always confuses me. In which sense are the elements of topological spaces points?

Leaky Nun

in the sense that the elements of R^2 are points

Luis Mendo

16:25

I don't follow

What would a counterexample be, where the elements of some set are not points?

Dennis

It's a geometric interpretation. You can think of the vectors in R^2 as points of a plane.

Leaky Nun

@LuisMendo rambles about Spec(Z)

Dennis

Doesn't work that well for more complicated spaces.

Luis Mendo

@Dennis But surely general topology is not limited to R^n

Ah, so the name is by analogy with R^n?

Leaky Nun

@Dennis so, what about general topology do you research on?

@LuisMendo sure

New Main Posts

16:29

0

Q: Corrupting A Binary File By Interpreting It As Text

Using FTP's ASCII mode to transfer binary files is a bad idea. It is likely to corrupt your data. Badly. Let's simulate this corruption! Your task is to write a program which takes a file as input and outputs the corrupted version of the file. Because how exactly your file gets corrupted is depe...

Luis Mendo

My point (!) is: if I define a topological space where the elements are functions (with some suitable definition of openness and closedness for functions), is that still point-set topology?

Leaky Nun

sure...

@LuisMendo compact-open topology

Luis Mendo

Then the name "point-set" is nonsensical to me. If everything can be considered a point (vector of R^n, function of C(R,R), ...), why not just drop "point-set" from the name "point-set topology"? It's just topology

Dennis

@LuisMendo Most concepts just use the nme that fits R^3 with the Euclidean distance. Open balls, for example, are intervals in R, disks in R^2, and cubes with the maximum distance, but we still call them balls.

@LeakyNun Spaces which can be approximated by curves for, e.g., optimization problems.

Leaky Nun

@Dennis I see

New Main Posts

16:44

-1

Q: c code to modify a contact. project : phonebook in c language

i am writing a code to create a phonebook using c language. This project has: display, save, load, modify, delete, add , search, exit functions . I stuck with the modify one and this is the required Modify function will prompt the user for last name and then you should list all matching contacts...

c

mınxomaτ

17:14

Expected: [{} null inf real -inf real {} null]
     Got: [{} null 8.0 real -8.0 real {} null]

YFW you change the .NET framework version and infinity becomes 8 o.O

AdmBorkBork

Rotate your monitor. Problem solved.

mınxomaτ

This is a meta joke in the runtime I swear...

ngn

17:31

@AdmBorkBork haha :) you must have seen that proof that 1/0=∞ ?

AdmBorkBork

Yes, and also that 5/0 equals sideways 5

ngn

@AdmBorkBork i'm not aware of this one

AdmBorkBork

It involves because 8/0 equals "sideways 8" that it follows that 5/0 equals "sideways 5"

ngn

@AdmBorkBork hm... :)

AdmBorkBork

Oh, I guess it involved limits instead of division by zero. My mistake.

wizzwizz4

17:37

@mınxomaτ Have you tried changing your console font?

mınxomaτ

Ok so, 3.5 uses (ulong) (*(long*) &d & long.MaxValue) > 9218868437227405312UL to prove NaN for a double, and 4.7 uses d != d.

J. Sallé

@AdmBorkBork turns out they eventually get close enough >.>

RosLuP

19:12

Topology i studied it...

wizzwizz4

19:22

@mınxomaτ Why would you ever use the former?

mınxomaτ

Ask MS

wizzwizz4

I have another reason that C# is bad to add to my list. (@ASCII-only :-p)

Cows quack

19:48

tfw you find a golf right after shutting down your computer

New Sandboxed Posts

20:32

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Front lines go front! code-golf array-manipulation Given two lists of positive integers, bring the elements in the first one that are in the second to the far left, keeping their order intact. You can assume that the second list's elements will all be unique. These approaches are forbidden. Fo...

Dennis

@Cowsquack Solution: never shut down your computer.

Erik the Outgolfer

nope, bad things happen after many days and nights with hibernation instead of shutdown...

Window$ 10 needs to refresh, so as to say :/

Dennis

I neither hibernate (I'm not even sure my OS does that) nor shut down. I rarely reboot. If my computer is off, I probably don't have electricity.

AdmBorkBork

I shutdown my machine every time I'm done with it. With modern SSDs so blazingly fast, what's the point of hibernation when it takes a half second longer to fully startup?

Except for my home server. That only reboots for patches as necessary.

Erik the Outgolfer

alright... how are you guys so underprotective...

laptop never stays on when I'm away for a long time

Dennis

20:51

Underprotective? What do you think is going to happen?

wizzwizz4

@Dennis Which OS?

Dennis

openSUSE

I think I could hibernate if I had a swap partition. I'm not sure why I'd want either.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Dennis overheating

at least in my case, where my laptop is in my bedroom

wizzwizz4

@Dennis You're right there. I haven't got a swap either, because I haven't got around to configuring it not to kill my SSD.

Erik the Outgolfer

obviously, I don't want the screen open and on while I'm sleeping, and the standby isn't all that trusted with W10 (especially if it's got updates to install, it's then that it wakes up a few seconds after it goes into standby), and stuff tends to be quite lagging after a few days even with hibernation in-between

wizzwizz4

21:00

> W10

There's your problem.

Erik the Outgolfer

ikr

although I'm a bit lazy to upgrade my Ubuntu to 18.04 :P

wizzwizz4

@EriktheOutgolfer Minor /etc/apt/sources.list change, then sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade. Simple!

Erik the Outgolfer

no, I mean, I hate waiting...

wizzwizz4

@EriktheOutgolfer Run it overnight, like Windows does.

Erik the Outgolfer

meh, I'm used to always be in control

Dennis

21:04

@EriktheOutgolfer That's not really a concern for a desktop machine. I've run 8-thread simulations for weeks at a time, during summer, without overheating.

Erik the Outgolfer

this is a laptop machine :P

wizzwizz4

@EriktheOutgolfer Then why do you use Windows?

Or do you just like the illusion of control?

Erik the Outgolfer

WINE obviously doesn't work for everything...

Dennis

@EriktheOutgolfer I might have mined Primecoins with a closed laptop for a few months.

@wizzwizz4 It's not really because of the SSD. Between having a program crash because it doesn't get enough RAM and having everything freeze because all 16 GiB of RAM are getting swapped to the disk, I choose the former.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Dennis lots of Ψ? ;-)

Dennis

21:08

Swap made a whole lot more sense when I had 64 MiB of RAM.

wizzwizz4

@Dennis You can customise the swappiness, you know?

And you can set process quotas.

And I only have the same amount of swap as RAM, most of the time.

Dennis

Swappiness changes when the daemon starts to swap. When you run out of RAM, it definitely will, not matter how swappy the settings.

wizzwizz4

@Dennis Oh yeah, never mind.

But you can still set per-process quotas.

Dennis

I'd rather use zram or just buy more RAM.

wizzwizz4

@Dennis But RAM costs more than houses!

Dennis

21:18

If you really need more RAM than your computer already has, it will probably be worth it.

And you must have access to some cheap houses where you live. :P

AdmBorkBork

You could always download more RAM ...

Dennis

That costs as much as swap and it doesn't slow the system down as much. Perfect!

Erik the Outgolfer

yeah, I've always trusted downloadmoreram.com... good results so far

New Sandboxed Posts

21:49

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Longest Descent code-golf grid Your task is to determine the length of the longest descent down a "mountain" represented as a grid of integer heights. A "descent" is any path from a starting cell to orthogonally adjacent cells with strictly decreasing heights (i.e. not diagonal and not to the...

Pavel

21:59

in talk.tryitonline.net, 24 mins ago, by Dennis

TIO now hosts exactly 600 programming languages. https://tio.run

Tweeted by Try_It_Online on December 26, 2018 at 9:34 PM

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