The Nineteenth Byte

Anonymous

13:21

@Mr.Xcoder Use collections.Sequence then

Anonymous

Also you should import sympy properly instead of doing __import__("sympy") all over the place

Mr. Xcoder

Ok, I'll use collections.Sequence. I was planning to import sympy, but I had __import__("sympy") because it's a heavy package and at first I thought I wouldn't use it too much. Turns out I need it, so I'll switch now. Thank you for the pro advice :-)

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder If you use sympy even once, you still have to import it and pay the startup cost. Might as well do that up-front for cleaner code.

Adám

@Mego APL: Invert a non-square matrix: ⍠

Dennis

@Mego Well, if you don't know upfront if you're going to use it, I'd still use __import__.

AdmBorkBork

13:33

Import is in bold because it's important?

Erik the Outgolfer

what

Dennis

Import is in bold because I keep forgetting __ is a thing in Markdown.

Anonymous

@Dennis It's entirely legal to use the regular import inside of a non-global scope, so there's no reason to use __import__ unless you need to import something that is given at runtime. Even then, importlib's tools are preferable.

Mr. Xcoder

@EriktheOutgolfer Look at the history of Dennis' message and you'll understand

Anonymous

@Adám But which pseudoinverse are you using?

Erik the Outgolfer

13:34

that's not an inverse actually, Adám most probably meant ⌹

Mr. Xcoder

I guess I am going to import it globally because I'll heavily use it

Dennis

@Mego I'd have to refactor Jelly quite a bit, but that would work.

Mr. Xcoder

And honestly having import sympy in 1/4th of the functions is not too pleasant, aesthetically speaking

Adám

@Mego Sorry: ⌹. Given a non-square matrix M, return a non-square matrix N such that N×M is an identity matrix.

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder @Dennis You could also look into using lazy imports

Anonymous

13:37

@Adám Again - which psuedoinverse? Unlike true inverses, pseudoinverses are not unique.

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego That looks cool, but it would be an additional dependency I'd much rather like to avoid, given that not many people have it installed

AFAIK, at least

Adám

@Mego Really? [[0,1],[2,3],[4,5]] → [[-1.08,-0.33,0.42],[0.83,0.33,-0.17]]. Any other?

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder That's why you use a setup.py and let setuptools handle requirements

Dennis

@Mego I think I tried that once and it went very wrong.

Mr. Xcoder

Ok, how does it look now?

moonheart08

13:41

Looks like someone figured out my thing. I know it counts as a language, too. if it doesn't i'll be suprised.

Also, first 100 rep \o/

NieDzejkob

@moonheart08 I get this, is that right?

moonheart08

Heh, you figured it out. It's paused by default (Just noting in case you've never used TPT, which, to note, is capable of everything that defines a language on this site \o/)

If you post that in the robbers thread, i'll mark it as cracked. I'm impressed.

Alex K Chen

hullo. I'm learning c++ from Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++ . The book suggest using Visual Studio, but it tkes 7 GB of download. Would using code:blocks suffice ?

NieDzejkob

I was expecting it to draw a triangle, but I guess an animation counts too...

moonheart08

Yup! Atom or something similar works as well.

Just note it'll deviate slightly from the book

or largely, depending on your choice (psst don't go and choose vim)

Mr. Xcoder

13:48

@AlexKChen I've used codeblocks in the past, it's a minimalist "IDE"... I wasn't too impressed, but it does work.

Alex K Chen

for a total beginner like me, what do u suggest ? @Mr.Xcoder @others

moonheart08

I personally use Atom. but Atom is a bit heavyweight, so if you're on a lowend computer, avoid it.

Mr. Xcoder

But I'd much rather use TIO instead of Codeblocks :P

Anonymous

@Adám I don't believe that specific matrix has any other pseudoinverses

user202729

I use Notepad++.

Codeblocks is definitely enough.

(you can download codeblocks and g++(mingw) separately, because the built in mingw version isn't really good)

NieDzejkob

13:50

I was trying to figure out how to ping tsh, because it's him who figured it out, but it's not necessary anymore :P

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder Syntax highlighting? For beginners it's too easy to make errors without...

caird coinheringaahing

@totallyhuman I got home, opened the SE app and found +100 waiting :P

NieDzejkob

I'd rather use vim than anything else :P

totallyhuman

@cairdcoinheringaahing that makes sense, you have two questions out

i don't :P

Mr. Xcoder

@AlexKChen For a beginner, Codeblocks suffices. I'd also recommend CLion if you're willing to pay (or otherwise you can try out the free trial)

user202729

13:52

@NieDzejkob Not on Windows.

caird coinheringaahing

@totallyhuman Well, you have a lot of answers :P

totallyhuman

yup :P

user202729

For Linux, I use Sublimetext.

caird coinheringaahing

@user202729 If you want a snippet for this I'd recommend you edit it in, I can't do JS

user202729

Me too. @NieDzejkob?

Alex K Chen

13:53

@Mr.Xcoder Thanks !

J. Sallé

I use VS for C++ and Atom as my text editor

user202729

(I mean I can do JS but not too familiar)

caird coinheringaahing

> 31 new answers to this question

Mr. Xcoder

Visual Studio is very, very not lightweight.

caird coinheringaahing

Note to self: Never leave PPCG challenge tab open overnight

4

Anonymous

13:53

@Mr.Xcoder @AlexKChen Also note that CLion is free if you apply for an open-source license. You can only use it for open-source work, but learning C++ should certainly count.

user202729

3 mins ago, by user202729

(you can download codeblocks and g++(mingw) separately, because the built in mingw version isn't really good)

For example C++11 string functions (std::to_string, std::stoi) is not supported IIRC. (assuming Windows)

If you can't use C++11 anyway then no problem.

Alex K Chen

ok. so which one is better between codeblocks and clion ?

NieDzejkob

@user202729 OK, I'll get going

Anonymous

I prefer CLion, but it's mostly personal preference

Anonymous

Try both and see which you like better

totallyhuman

13:55

i use atom, it's probably the only one that hits the sweet spot of customization for me

Mr. Xcoder

^^^

moonheart08

That was a fun solution for me to come up with. I'm impressed it was cracked in the way they did it, as well. (I didn't realize it saved variable names in the compressed BSON)

caird coinheringaahing

I use Notepad/IDLE when using Python :P

user202729

... Also codeblocks feels really slow for me.

New Main Posts

0

Q: Pascal's Triangle (Sort of)

Most everyone here is familiar with Pascal's Triangle. It's formed by successive rows, where each element is the sum of its two upper-left and upper-right neighbors. Here are the first 5 rows (borrowed from Generate Pascal's triangle): 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 1 4 6 4 1 . . . Collapse t...

caird coinheringaahing

13:56

Q: Is OEIS down for anyone else?

NieDzejkob

@cairdcoinheringaahing I had troubles accessing OEIS more or less 2 hours ago

but it loaded after a few retries

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing It is down for me.

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ OEIS goes down right when a sequence challenge is posted

Mr. Xcoder

ಠ_ಠ You wanted to search OEIS? Come up with a formula yourself! :P

user202729

github, please...

Does anyone know of another way to browse Jelly wiki?

Erik the Outgolfer

13:59

try clearing the tz cookie off of github then refresh

Alex K Chen

Hullo @EriktheOutgolfer will you play a round of Super Tic Tac Toe ?

user202729

I don think it can help.

Erik the Outgolfer

for me that's how I regained access to github

the name of the cookie

you go to the github.com cookies, and delete the "tz" cookie

AdmBorkBork

@cairdcoinheringaahing I timed it especially.

Erik the Outgolfer

what?

caird coinheringaahing

14:04

Q: Do you favourite questions, and if so, why?

AdmBorkBork

I've favorite'd one question, because it's my favorite question on the site.

label a -- goto a

1. They provide data that I often need, search for
2. I want to follow changes in it

caird coinheringaahing

I favourite questions on PPCG because I want to take a crack at them at some point :P

totallyhuman

agh i can't remember the language that uses a colon for operator arguments

moonheart08

It's fun how The Powder Toy meets the PPCG requirements for being a language

I'm tempted to try golfing in it noncompetitively for fun. Just need to figure out how to actually measure it

Anonymous

14:08

@moonheart08 Savefiles?

user202729

Which language is that?

moonheart08

Save files seem a little clunky.

user202729

... "operator arguments"? What's that?

moonheart08

It makes a little more sense to, maybe, answer in particle count?

caird coinheringaahing

@moonheart08 A lot of games are good for PPCG challenges. Minecraft is quite a good one :P

moonheart08

14:09

mhm.

Anonymous

@moonheart08 Well, unless there's another method to reproduce state from a countable sequence of bytes, that's what you're stuck with

moonheart08

@Mego i'm talking about scoring. unless that's what you mean.

probably is what you mean

Anonymous

That is what I mean

moonheart08

shrug

noncompetitive it is then

:P

user202729

This looks terribly like some Lisp dialect, but I can't find a working one...

NieDzejkob

14:12

you can write a golfing language that can only output TPT savefiles

caird coinheringaahing

@moonheart08 Most people don't use those kind of languages to win, but just because they're fun to use

user202729

I though you had alredy posted in that language?

(all)

moonheart08

@cairdcoinheringaahing if in particle count, TPT could win some simple challanges. But yea, save file score makes sense

Anonymous

We count everything in bytes, because that's the only sensible measurement. Anything else would be comparing apples to pineapples.

totallyhuman

@user202729 i think lisp is a red herring on that one

moonheart08

14:14

^

caird coinheringaahing

TFW you google something and Geobits is the first result :/

2

Erik the Outgolfer

nah, doesn't convince me you typed that randomly at all

totallyhuman

why :/

do you not want to see geobits

caird coinheringaahing

> 27283891147 is even number

Reading through the chat transcript can be great

label a -- goto a

LOL

totallyhuman

14:24

yeah transcript's often more fun than regular chat lol

NieDzejkob

@cairdcoinheringaahing why?

caird coinheringaahing

@NieDzejkob Check my message above that

NieDzejkob

I know, but is that bad?

just refresh if the ordering is bothering you

caird coinheringaahing

Not bad per se, but not good either

ETHproductions

@cairdcoinheringaahing JavaScript disagrees. 27283891147777777 is truly even though

caird coinheringaahing

14:28

All sane languages should disagree :P

ETHproductions

(here's what the original message was referring to)

user202729

14:41

Can/should I google things for The programming language quiz challenge?

totallyhuman

yeah

user202729

... looks like it's useless anyway ...

totallyhuman

you can't reasonably enforce otherwise anyways

:P

user202729

Winning criteria.

moonheart08

TPT is rather good for quines (suprisingly). It's better than jsfuck at least lol

it's possible to build a configuration of particles that duplicates infinitely

moonheart08

15:13

I may as well make a quine in TPT then. It'll be fun.

caird coinheringaahing

@moonheart08 Everything is better than JSFuck :P

moonheart08

@cairdcoinheringaahing True. :P

So to pull this off i'm going to need two "scanning" heads that use DRAY to duplicate one part of the machine at a time...

J. Sallé

@cairdcoinheringaahing JSFuck? Do you mean javascript? :p

caird coinheringaahing

Nah, JS is better than PHP

NieDzejkob

so I didn't predict a thing while working on the TPLQ2 snippet and now firefox is "not responding", the cpu usage is up to 100% while the stackexchange javascript console is probably serialising a recirsive object

any ideas how to recover from that?

user202729

15:19

killall?

Pavel

@NieDzejkob pkill fox

moonheart08

Uh, the entire firefox? Odd.

NieDzejkob

but then wouldn't I lose the code I already wrote?

user202729

... too bad ...

Don't you store the code somewhere else?

moonheart08

I thought firefox uses threads to isolate and run each tab seperately. But yea, you're gonna have to kill it

I guess that's a nightly thing

user202729

15:20

... auto recovery may work ... or not.

caird coinheringaahing

> Multiple users are discussing PHP.

Ignore them.

Good to see that bluefeet has a sense of humour :P

moonheart08

@MDXF is going to get on to a surprise when they see my answer was cracked. (They were trying to crack it)

Also, you guys can crack anything can't you.

I highly suspect some of you are wizards in disguise

caird coinheringaahing

@moonheart08 Just you wait. Dennis hasn't even got involved yet :P

user202729

Yes, Dennis cracked a ??? submission.

caird coinheringaahing

Ah yeah, just noticed.

J. Sallé

15:26

@moonheart08 you're wrong. Most of the wizards in this site aren't at all interested in disguising themselves.

NieDzejkob

lesson learned, starting from scratch :(

caird coinheringaahing

I'd say that "Heeby Jeeby Man" was a half-decent disguise, given that it took some people about a day to realise

NieDzejkob

fortunately I didn't have a lot done

J. Sallé

@cairdcoinheringaahing indeed. Me included >.>

AdmBorkBork

@NieDzejkob No, don't do Scratch, that'll get cracked easily.

moonheart08

15:28

on that note, how did 7zip decompress the TPT savefile? TPT save files have a header that contains TPT version information, a checksum, etc.

caird coinheringaahing

CMP: 5 programming languages everybody should know? (inspiration)

Poke

Java

end of list

moonheart08

no u

Everyone should know rust \o/

NieDzejkob

@AdmBorkBork can't tell if you are serious

@cairdcoinheringaahing Python

moonheart08

i'm suprised no-one has done an encoded Magic The Gathering deck. Magic The Gathering is turing complete if I remember right.

Erik the Outgolfer

15:33

how do you know? :P

moonheart08

Just recalling from a discussion in #esoteric on freenode

AdmBorkBork

@NieDzejkob Totally for srs. Scratch would get cracked almost instantly just by looking at the picture.

moonheart08

and true

NieDzejkob

@moonheart08 is there an interpreter for that?

moonheart08

@NieDzejkob Yes, it's called a person. :p

NieDzejkob

15:34

@moonheart08 I'm not sure that counts

moonheart08

Meh. I'm just noting :P

NieDzejkob

15 mins ago, by NieDzejkob

so I didn't predict a thing while working on the TPLQ2 snippet and now firefox is "not responding", the cpu usage is up to 100% while the stackexchange javascript console is probably serialising a recirsive object

Pavel

@AdmBorkBork Build BYOB program, make people think it's Scratch

user202729

... why should I include program in robber post?

caird coinheringaahing

So that people can see the program without having to click through?

J. Sallé

15:36

@moonheart08 I could probably do that, but what's the point?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Pavel but then it would still work in Scratch

remember, they don't have to guess the language you used, but any language in which it works

AdmBorkBork

@NieDzejkob Yeah, I realize. Tried to make a joke based on the programming language Scratch and your comment that you were "starting from scratch"

Pavel

@EriktheOutgolfer Has anyone even use BYOB? I've heard of it, but I've never actually seen a BYOB program.

Anonymous

@user202729 Convenience for readers

Erik the Outgolfer

@Pavel btw BYOB is now called Snap!

Pavel

15:39

TIL C# classes can be split across multiple projects. Thank you C# for letting me write ever shittier code.

user202729

... it seems that an answer in any practical language would be cracked immediately.

Anonymous

@Pavel Yep, partial classes. VB.NET has the same "feature"

caird coinheringaahing

@user202729 Not if it were disguised as another language

user202729

Or just that I think so. I don't know.

But there are a lot of keywords...

Anonymous

It's used a lot for WinForms - the designer will make a partial class with all the element loading and positioning handled (poorly), and give you an almost-blank class to implement behaviors in

Pavel

15:42

@Mego It was only very recently that they could be split across projects though. Now, depending on which assembly you compile, the exact same class can behave differently and have different methods.

Anonymous

@Pavel Oh right, projects, I missed that bit

Anonymous

That's terrifying

user202729

For example:

... I don't know. Probably I can just try to just do it.

Pavel

@Mego I think I might actually have a usecase for it. I'm building a game, for which there's a 2 projects for the server and the client, with a shared core project holding all the commonalities between them. The client project extends the partial class to include a Render method and such, which relies on a graphics library that won't run on the server and so can't be included in the base class.

moonheart08

@Pavel You can also just write it in C++. Problem solved. (Don't actually do this, split code in C++ is ugly and hard to maintain)

Pavel

15:47

@moonheart08 Unfortunatly, this is a group project, and I was not able to convince three other people to learn C++

moonheart08

:P

caird coinheringaahing

Q: Do we need an election tag for community votes on things such as TNB room owners or nominations for mods?

Pavel

I can't just use inherit the core class to include graphics, either: If GraphicsObject extends BaseObject , and BasePlayer extends BaseObject, what does GraphicsPlayer extend?

Adám

CMQ for those who are not learning APL: Why not? What would make you?

CMQ for those are learning APL: What is difficult? Which problems are you having?

Pavel

I am really bad at learning keyboard layouts, apparantly.

Anonymous

15:59

@Adám Time constraints

Anonymous

Not enough hours in the day for everything that I want to do and have to do

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám Golfing it. I'm fine making a program in APL, but its always twice the size of something you or Uriel post

I'm reading through these and thinking that 18 bytes is waaay too long for a fib program :/

And ಠ_ಠ for The score of your solution is the sum of the UTF-8 characters in your source code. This means both "A" (U+0041 Latin Capital Letter A) and "😉" (U+1F609 Winking Face) cost the same despite the 1:4 ratio in byte count.

Neil

surely if it's just script then Firefox's slow script warning should pop up at some point

NieDzejkob

@Neil the problem is that it probably went into an infinite loop in C code, which would not be detected

How do you guys like the UI of this snippet?

Neil

I doubt the stackexchange console is written in C

caird coinheringaahing

16:13

@NieDzejkob Looks good to me

NieDzejkob

@Neil but the builtin javascript string representation generator

I will probably add a language column to the cracked answers

and add a safe answers section

Manish Kundu

I feel its time to post this: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/14755/77516

its ~2.5 days and I guess no new feedback

Neil

JSON.stringify throws an exception for cyclic values

NieDzejkob

idk then

maybe it was just a random hang?

Neil

toString on an array that contains itself just seems to ignore that element

caird coinheringaahing

16:16

Q: Which is easier to read/identify paths of numbers? First or second?

moonheart08

I wonder how many games you can physically make a quine in. you can kinda do it in factorio (Using the Recursive Blueprints mod)..

J. Sallé

@Adám Definitely converting dfns into tacit fns (and remembering the orders of the operators and what'll be executed first)

NieDzejkob

@moonheart08 you could make a hexadecimal display that shows the savefile data one nibble per frame

Adám

@J.Sallé Noted. However, isn't it much easier to remember APL's order of execution that that of other languages (which do have a precedence table)?

moonheart08

True. That'd be insane, but it might be possible

Manish Kundu

16:25

I don't exactly understand this question codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/155152/… on how the spiral is generated

New Main Posts

1

Q: Print a outgoing spiral of pangram

Introduction Write a program to output the outgoing spiral of the famous pangram following given rules. Challenge A pangram is a sentence using every letter of a given alphabet at least once. One of the most famous pangrams is the one used extensively in Windows font viewer, namely "The quick ...

code-golf string kolmogorov-complexity pangram

Adám

Background: Our CEO asked me to present what is difficult for newcomers and what holds people back from taking up APL.

caird coinheringaahing

@ManishKundu Each character is repeated n times, where n is its position in the alphabet, unless it hits a corner, then the next letter in the string is used.

Manish Kundu

why does each line contain exactly 30 letters?

caird coinheringaahing

Because that's how many spirals it goes through before all letters in the string are used

12 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

Q: Which is easier to read/identify paths of numbers? First or second?

Any answer?

NieDzejkob

16:30

@cairdcoinheringaahing do you have to use numbers? / I would say the first. / Maybe you can use some HTML magic to do syntax coloring?

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Python, Javascript, C / C# / some variant thereof, Haskell, and of course Triangularity :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing First.

user202729

Anyone can take a look at this?

Anonymous

Man, trying to use Go on Windows makes me hate this stupid language even more

J. Sallé

16:49

@Adám it is, but I still don't get some of the ordering. I don't know if I'm too dense to work it out properly or something. I guess lack of practice is also a problem.

PhiNotPi

I'm about to post this challenge: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/4823/2867

My main concern is in the scoring. It's a cool concept, but I really have no idea how it will turn out.

user202729

Just try it.

@user202729 Should it be VTRO? Is the issue of programs can't be scored problematic enough?

Pavel

@Mr.Xcoder C and C# are like Java and Javascript.

user202729

Proving BB(a) > b is not too hard (just find a program, assume it's true) but proving BB(a) < b is extremely hard.

Mr. Xcoder

I disagree that C is similar to Java or Javascript. C# might be, but IMO C isn't.

Pavel

16:58

@Mr.Xcoder What I'm saying is that C is nothing like C#

Mr. Xcoder

Oh, I see now.

Pavel

On the other hand, Java and C# are Python and Coconut.

Wheat Wizard

@Adám There are so many languages out there I don't see any reason to learn APL in particular

Pavel

It's the same language, but with more better features

user202729

@user202729 Uhhh.... why starring this?

Pavel

16:59

@Mr.Xcoder You may be thinking of C/C++/Objective-C/Objective-C++

Mr. Xcoder

@Pavel C++ is nothing like C :P

user202729

From man killall: "kill processes by name" (unlike what its name may suggest)

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi What's stopping Mathematica from dominating the challenge by having a builtin?

Mr. Xcoder

C is highly superior by all means IMO

Pavel

@Mr.Xcoder It's certaintly way closer than C#

Mr. Xcoder

17:00

Indeed

user202729

@Mego Nothing. (.....)

Pavel

Besides, if you look at my C++, with all it's mallocs, you might not be sure which one of the two you're looking it :P

Mr. Xcoder

Yet surprisingly Mathematica doesn't have a built-in Pascal Triangle.

user202729

It has Binomial.

PhiNotPi

@Mego I'm going by the whole "competition within languages, not between them" thing.

NieDzejkob

17:01

@user202729 kill all [instances of]. It's a sane name

Pavel

@Mr.Xcoder Isn't that just Binomial

Ninja'd

Mr. Xcoder

I know...

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi That's fair, I suppose

user202729

If TNB is abandoned for 1e9 years, will the highest-starred message rise to the top of the starboard?

PhiNotPi

Yes, I believe so.

Mr. Xcoder

17:04

Let's test!

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder sets timeout

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi The challenge is interesting enough that I just wasted 10 minutes trying to do polynomial interpolation, only to find that it's a terrible approach

Wheat Wizard

CMC how long would it take of not starring things for the top starred post to rise to the top?

totallyhuman

3

Pavel

17:32

@Mego What's Polynomial Interpolation?

AdmBorkBork

The opposite of monomial outerpolation.

totallyhuman

*extrapolation

PhiNotPi

I've posted my challenge.

Now I need to do other work, hopefully it doesn't implode in the meantime.

New Main Posts

17:53

-1

Q: Compressing the Atomic Ionization Energies

This is a different type of compression challenge. In a normal kolmogorov-complexity challenge, you are required to recreate a list exactly. Here, you are allowed to round the values in any way you wish. What's the catch? Your score is penalized based on how wrong your output is. At the bott...

number code-challenge compression

PhiNotPi

Already downvoted, whelp.

Mr. Xcoder

Huh, TIL Python imports are weird

moonheart08

That's why you use ECMAScript 6 /s

label a -- goto a

@Mr.Xcoder Because you call "math.log" before running requires?

Mr. Xcoder

@moonheart08 No thank you!

moonheart08

17:57

Good point lol

it WAS a joke

i maintain a largeish IRC bot written in Node.js. I promise situations like that are hell.

label a -- goto a

@Mr.Xcoder Python is the only language I know which doesn't work this way. In other languages, the operator you want is ===. Python comparison is strict by default, while not in other languages

betseg

20 hours ago, by betseg

also, they said the bottom 2 streams were 2 boosters but they were the same

youtube.com/watch?v=bCc16uozHVE they edited the video!

Mr. Xcoder

=== has a completely different meaning in Python

And it's much saner in my opinion

Transcript for