The Nineteenth Byte

Anonymous

00:00

@cairdcoinheringaahing Boxing would be much simpler than inheritance

feersum

Oh.

That's a lot weaker than I interpreted your original comment.

caird coinheringaahing

@Mego Boxing?

feersum

I thought it was that it could actually be optimized to a plaint int operation.

So instead it's just some variant (int or double) type

With switching and overflow testing and re-doing teh operation... ick.

Hard to believe that that's actually faster than having it be a double.

Maybe they only do that if you use bitwise operations.

HyperNeutrino

I'm tempted to make my own precise arithmetic library but I'm sure that wouldn't go well

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino ~~use charcoal's~~ actually it doesn't really work rn but i'd be happy to fix it if you want to be QA

Neil

00:05

@feersum I'm sure I read somewhere that SpiderMonkey went as far as saying that if you use specific JavaScript constructs e.g. x = (y | 0) + (z | 0) | 0; then it would realise that you really wanted ints and do everything in int arithmetic

ASCII-only

@Neil So like pre-asm.js

feersum

@Neil OK, but that's not normal programming...

HyperNeutrino

@ASCII-only if you want to that'd be great but I don't want to bother you with my language dev especially since I have a 50% chance of going back on my own idea and changing my mind :P

feersum

And if you use a non-bitwise operations, it still has to do overflow checks and generate fallback-to-double code, no?

HyperNeutrino

also gmpy failed again

ASCII-only

00:08

@HyperNeutrino :| i really need to fix Charcoal's arbitrary precision arithmetic either way

HyperNeutrino

actually the apt-get install failed too

@ASCII-only huh ok

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino :|

HyperNeutrino

if it becomes functional I might use it

ASCII-only

looks at charcoal

crap i need to add math stuff first

what's an example of a language with a good amount of math builtins

HyperNeutrino

jelly lol

(imo)

has a decent amount at least

Neil

00:11

@feersum this is where my knowledge starts getting sketchy sorry

ASCII-only

Does charcoal need a pair operator? x, y => [x,y]

HyperNeutrino

@ASCII-only what is name of charcoal precise math file

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino wolfram.py

but it's completely broken as i mentioned :P

HyperNeutrino

oh ok thanks :P

feersum

So apparently (65536 * 65536) | 0 is 0.

ATaco

00:13

I think I need to give Funky a do{} statement.

feersum

I guess if it works like that, then it really can do an int operation there.

HyperNeutrino

huh looks interesting

feersum

So the one redeeming feature of JS is that it can be a semi-acceptable target language for compiling a non-JS language into.

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino also a mess :P and i basically went "why not implement mathematica" and started typing like a monkey until it worked

I'm not even sure half of it works properly

HyperNeutrino

lol :P

feersum

00:16

Wait, actually doing an int operation still probably isn't accurate.

Downgoat

@feersum not really because of its weird numbers. I tried compile VSL to JS but number class resulted in inconsistency behavior

feersum

Er

It's accurate for addition

But it wouldn't be for multiplication.

Due to precision issues.

@Downgoat What kind of numbers does VSL have?

ASCII-only

@feersum this is what wasm is for

Downgoat

@ASCII-only idea: use TypedArray for all arithmetic and to simulate pointer

feersum

@ASCII-only It doesn't really exist yet, no?

ASCII-only

00:17

@feersum it does, it's just not finalized yet

Downgoat

@ASCII-only wasm is arguably more ambitious compilation target than ASM though

feersum

@ASCII-only But in what sense?

Downgoat

@feersum spec is still being developed

Basic things like format, JS interface, etc are finalizr

ASCII-only

@feersum the spec, chrome definitely has it, FF probably does, Edge probably not

feersum

What I mean is that it doesn't exist as something that's usable in practice, that you could actually deploy for your site and most users could use it.

ASCII-only

00:19

@feersum Well I consider FF and chrome users as most users :P

Downgoat

@ASCII-only idts

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino ide.c9.io/somebody1234/charcoal if you want to observe just how terrible it is atm

HyperNeutrino

oh ok :P

Dennis

caniuse.com/#feat=wasm

HyperNeutrino

oh I need to sign in rip

Neil

00:19

@feersum apparently you can do something like github.com/bnjbvr/floats32-bench/blob/gh-pages/exp/exp.js and the engine will see you're using fround everywhere and decide to do everything using floats instead of doubles in the first place

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino :/ oh well

HyperNeutrino

yup rip

Neil

still haven't found anything on what fallback it does though sorry

feersum

I just want to point out again that we're not even talking about JS engine optimizations for JS source code anymore. We're talking about optimizations for non-JS languages using JS as the backend.

ASCII-only

Hmm @Neil would you mind looking through this to see what Charcoal would need (or maybe @Downgoat)

Downgoat

00:23

@ASCII-only what happen to goat one

HyperNeutrino

anyway gtg o/

ASCII-only

@Downgoat ???

Downgoat

@ASCII-only the ascii goat built in

ASCII-only

@Downgoat nothing happen?

Neil

@ASCII-only square root would be nice, although I see the deverbosifier optimises power(..., 0.5) to 4 bytes

base conversion?

some sort of filtering operation

ASCII-only

00:36

wait i don't have filter? crap :|

user202729

@HyperNeutrino What is SSN?

Downgoat

@user202729 Secret Sheep Number

Neil

is slightly disappointed to find that Maximum(PushOperator(Map(...), 0)) is the same bytecount as Maximum([0, Maximum(Map(...))])

user202729

Probably this one.

ASCII-only

@user202729 *definitely

user202729

00:47

@HyperNeutrino The sequence is asking that how many matrices satisfy the condition that no two matrices can be equivalent under permutation of rows and columns.

ASCII-only

yay arbitrary precision arithmetic is back in order

well it was a problem with N but anyway

CMP: More builtins first? Or more Wolfram first?

@Neil hmm what would be a good character for base conversion

quartata

did someone say wasm

I sensed I was needed to crush people's dreams about webassembly

also x | 0 really is idiomatic asm.js, don't question why too much

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only ok i missed the memo on cmp meaning

ATaco

Getting STDIN in NodeJS is unreasonably difficult to do Syncronously.

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco i hate it when stuff like that happens

quartata

01:01

getting STDIN at all is a nightmare

ATaco

I'm just manually reading it from it's file descriptor.

Destructible Lemon

@quartata well someone clearly hasn't used a decent programming language

quartata

not even C forces you to work with stdin as a file, it has helpers

ATaco

Lua does it easily.

io.read()

Want all of STDIN instead of a line? io.read("*a")

Destructible Lemon

or actually the context in which you said that is ambiguous as to whether you mean at all in any language, or at all using nodejs

ATaco

01:02

Just want a number? io.read("*n")

quartata

node obviously

perl has everyone beat on stdin though

give it -n and it just shows up in $_ ready to go, it's the default argument too

Destructible Lemon

when i said "stuff like that", i meant steps that should be simple before actually complex parts

like I wanted to try that os developing tutorial but my sd card reader couldn't find the right partitions

Pavel

@quartata That forces a loop around your code, you might not want that.

Destructible Lemon

I really do not like simple things being overcomplicated, such as the unfindable partition I mentioned

Pavel

<> reads a line, which is nice.

(iirc)

@ATaco I wonder if it's because you're using a language that was never intended for desktop use.

quartata

01:15

@Pavel I'm aware :P

@Pavel <> doesn't necessarily read from STDIN

it reads from whatever file was passed as an argument OR STDIN if none is specified

you probably mean <STDIN>

Pavel

Kinda? <> is generally what I want to do.

quartata

@Downgoat This is, for real, how emscripten works

That is, all of memory is in one TypedArray

pointers are indices

HyperNeutrino

CMP: Should I learn Colemak? (keyboard layout)

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino No

HyperNeutrino

one of my friends is like "you should all learn colemak" lol

Destructible Lemon

01:18

cmp: chat mini ___?

HyperNeutrino

poll

apparently qwerty sucks

Destructible Lemon

thanks

@HyperNeutrino why?

user202729

@HyperNeutrino Why?

Destructible Lemon

@user202729 haha it happened again

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino I mean, kinda, it does, yeah.

user202729

01:19

The last time is with HyperNeutrino.

Pavel

But it doesn't suck so much that you should spent effort on a different layout.

quartata

tbh I'm surprised that emscripten (and by extent WebAssembly) is as fast as it is

HyperNeutrino

I read somewhere / was told that QWERTY was designed to be hard to use so people wouldn't jam typewriters as much.

Pavel

@quartata What is this Web Assembly I keep hearing about anyway. I tried looking it up once but got hopelessly confused.

@HyperNeutrino Yes. Keys commonly pressed one after the other are intentionally spaced apart.

quartata

@Pavel it's just a kind of bytecode that can run in browsers

Downgoat

01:21

@Pavel webassembly.org

quartata

haha note how they say "load-time-efficient"

giggles

HyperNeutrino

ah ok

Pavel

There's probably an electron app that runs on it somewhere.

HyperNeutrino

I can get like 100+ WPM on QWERTY usually so I don't think it's really necessary to learn a different layout

Destructible Lemon

it's probably be a better use of your time to learn lojban than to learn a new keyboard layout. not that it's a very comparable amount of effort but it's true probably

HyperNeutrino

01:21

but my accuracy is not that good lol

Downgoat

so instead of trying to compile to JS and have troubles because JS is slow, you can compile to WASM and maybe now it's a little faster

Riker

@quartata I'm surprised I thought you said that more often

Downgoat

@DestructibleLemon no one speak lojban though, maybe like mandarin mgiht be more useful

Riker

7 times in the history of TNB

quartata

@Riker chat.stackexchange.com/…

Destructible Lemon

01:22

@Downgoat lojban is the future

quartata

I just don't come here often enough for it to saturate the history

Destructible Lemon

also lojban doesn't have difficult characters

Riker

@quartata still

@DestructibleLemon doesn't the knob speak fluent lojban?

or was that esperanto

Pavel

@Neil Yes.

quartata

@Riker not fluent and yes

Riker

01:23

@quartata this sentence is oddly amusing

quartata

no one is really fluent in lojban

Riker

@quartata ah

@quartata fluent as can be

Destructible Lemon

@quartata this is false probably

quartata

in that case definitely not

sorry dorknoob

Anonymous

@HyperNeutrino It wasn't invented to slow down typing. It was designed so that most common words would be typed with keys on alternating sides of the typewrite keyboard (or failing that, at least not right next to each other whenever possible) to avoid keys getting tangled.

Pavel

01:24

@Neil Although ! and not ¬.

HyperNeutrino

oh ok right makes sense

Destructible Lemon

@Mego i was sort of thinking that

quartata

I was ranting about wasm right

Riker

@quartata *rookbond

@quartata yes

quartata

ok right

Riker

01:24

carry on it was amusing

quartata

"load-time efficient" read: we ended up twice as slow as pnacl and we don't know why this happened but it's probably mozilla's fault

Riker

@Mego back when all those ancient programmers were punching cards, and aeroplanes didn't exist

Anonymous

@cairdcoinheringaahing Having the int and gmpwhatever objects be member objects

HyperNeutrino

hey I finally managed to get 100+ WPM with 100% accuracy

first (111101002465727946th) try

user202729

How do you all learn typing so fast?

HyperNeutrino

01:29

well I started typing like 20-30 page long research papers/reports in like grade 5

so I learned to type quickly early on so that my typing could match my thinking

Downgoat

@DestructibleLemon that’s what they said about juicero

user202729

Grade 5 = 10 years old?

Destructible Lemon

@Downgoat >_> did you just compare lojban to juicero

brb let me look up the lojban word for mafia

Downgoat

@DestructibleLemon oui

HyperNeutrino

isn't everything a verb in lojban or something like that

@user202729 yes

Destructible Lemon

01:32

@HyperNeutrino a bit of an over simplification but a little bit

HyperNeutrino

hm ok

ATaco

Is lojban a golfing language?

HyperNeutrino

no it's a speaking language

Destructible Lemon

also a writing one

it's called "the logical language" which is maybe a bit arrogant but also sort of true at the same time

also they don't have multiple sounds for each letter

well i mean they do a little bit

but not significant ones

quartata

@DestructibleLemon la grirmafia btw

Destructible Lemon

01:36

thanks

where did you find that?

quartata

fu'ivla obviously

Looked it up in the dictionary

Destructible Lemon

ok so apparently go'i means "^"

quartata

I use this dictionary: la-lojban.github.io

Destructible Lemon

cool

I should really learn lojban

ATaco

Lojban sadly doesn't have much practical use.

Destructible Lemon

01:41

u wot

well you can update the lojban wikipedia

quartata

Somewhat ironically it's actually too practical

Destructible Lemon

also it's a nice multicultural language and it would be very good to be lingua franca of the planet

HyperNeutrino

I want to learn it but I have no idea where to start with learning languages lol

Destructible Lemon

i believe there was a guide i was using before i procrastinated

it was pretty good i think

although I'd understand if maybe you don't wanna follow my advice since i never actually finished learning although it's not like we had a control group to say that it was because the guide was bad

also, of course i might not be the best to ask about it, but it seemed to be a fair amount easier to learn than other languages

HyperNeutrino

Does its grammar actually make sense? :P

Like French grammar makes no sense half the time

quartata

01:46

The whole point of it is to make its grammar hyper regular

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino yes it does

HyperNeutrino

cool :D

Destructible Lemon

@quartata you mean the lack of idioms and such?

i find this page interesting

quartata

Not really, just that it has a very consistent grammar. They have an EBNF somewhere IIRC

Destructible Lemon

ebnf?

@quartata in what way is it too practical then?

quartata

01:49

All of it is focused on being unambiguous not being easy to learn

Destructible Lemon

not sure about that tbh

if you don't need to learn mega context clues it must make it easier to learn at any rate

also when you learn to speak lojban, you are speaking exclusively with the people that learn lojban, like that xkcd but reversed

quartata

Well go ahead and give it a shot

Destructible Lemon

but I'm lazy

Pavel

CMC: Determine which function yields this graph

HyperNeutrino

Is f continuous at c?

Pavel

01:58

@HyperNeutrino Yes

The point is the vertical tangent line

HyperNeutrino

ok

Pavel

(I just need the shape, it's fine to assume c is the origin)

HyperNeutrino

I was going to say arctan but that's nowhere close to being vertical at the origin lol

Pavel

And I just figured it out, it's cubert(x)

wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cuberoot+x

HyperNeutrino

oh lol

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