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Anonymous
12:00 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Boxing would be much simpler than inheritance
 
Oh.
That's a lot weaker than I interpreted your original comment.
 
@Mego Boxing?
 
I thought it was that it could actually be optimized to a plaint int operation.
So instead it's just some variant (int or double) type
With switching and overflow testing and re-doing teh operation... ick.
Hard to believe that that's actually faster than having it be a double.
Maybe they only do that if you use bitwise operations.
 
I'm tempted to make my own precise arithmetic library but I'm sure that wouldn't go well
 
@HyperNeutrino use charcoal's actually it doesn't really work rn but i'd be happy to fix it if you want to be QA
 
12:05 AM
@feersum I'm sure I read somewhere that SpiderMonkey went as far as saying that if you use specific JavaScript constructs e.g. x = (y | 0) + (z | 0) | 0; then it would realise that you really wanted ints and do everything in int arithmetic
 
@Neil So like pre-asm.js
 
@Neil OK, but that's not normal programming...
 
@ASCII-only if you want to that'd be great but I don't want to bother you with my language dev especially since I have a 50% chance of going back on my own idea and changing my mind :P
 
And if you use a non-bitwise operations, it still has to do overflow checks and generate fallback-to-double code, no?
 
also gmpy failed again
 
12:08 AM
@HyperNeutrino :| i really need to fix Charcoal's arbitrary precision arithmetic either way
 
actually the apt-get install failed too
@ASCII-only huh ok
 
@HyperNeutrino :|
 
if it becomes functional I might use it
 
looks at charcoal
crap i need to add math stuff first
what's an example of a language with a good amount of math builtins
 
jelly lol
(imo)
has a decent amount at least
 
12:11 AM
@feersum this is where my knowledge starts getting sketchy sorry
 
Does charcoal need a pair operator? x, y => [x,y]
 
@ASCII-only what is name of charcoal precise math file
 
@HyperNeutrino wolfram.py
but it's completely broken as i mentioned :P
 
oh ok thanks :P
 
So apparently (65536 * 65536) | 0 is 0.
 
12:13 AM
I think I need to give Funky a do{} statement.
 
I guess if it works like that, then it really can do an int operation there.
 
huh looks interesting
 
So the one redeeming feature of JS is that it can be a semi-acceptable target language for compiling a non-JS language into.
 
@HyperNeutrino also a mess :P and i basically went "why not implement mathematica" and started typing like a monkey until it worked
I'm not even sure half of it works properly
 
lol :P
 
12:16 AM
Wait, actually doing an int operation still probably isn't accurate.
 
@feersum not really because of its weird numbers. I tried compile VSL to JS but number class resulted in inconsistency behavior
 
Er
It's accurate for addition
But it wouldn't be for multiplication.
Due to precision issues.
@Downgoat What kind of numbers does VSL have?
 
@feersum this is what wasm is for
 
@ASCII-only idea: use TypedArray for all arithmetic and to simulate pointer
 
@ASCII-only It doesn't really exist yet, no?
 
12:17 AM
@feersum it does, it's just not finalized yet
 
@ASCII-only wasm is arguably more ambitious compilation target than ASM though
 
@ASCII-only But in what sense?
 
@feersum spec is still being developed
Basic things like format, JS interface, etc are finalizr
 
@feersum the spec, chrome definitely has it, FF probably does, Edge probably not
 
What I mean is that it doesn't exist as something that's usable in practice, that you could actually deploy for your site and most users could use it.
 
12:19 AM
@feersum Well I consider FF and chrome users as most users :P
 
@ASCII-only idts
 
@HyperNeutrino ide.c9.io/somebody1234/charcoal if you want to observe just how terrible it is atm
 
oh ok :P
 
oh I need to sign in rip
 
12:19 AM
@feersum apparently you can do something like github.com/bnjbvr/floats32-bench/blob/gh-pages/exp/exp.js and the engine will see you're using fround everywhere and decide to do everything using floats instead of doubles in the first place
 
@HyperNeutrino :/ oh well
 
yup rip
 
still haven't found anything on what fallback it does though sorry
 
I just want to point out again that we're not even talking about JS engine optimizations for JS source code anymore. We're talking about optimizations for non-JS languages using JS as the backend.
 
Hmm @Neil would you mind looking through this to see what Charcoal would need (or maybe @Downgoat)
 
12:23 AM
@ASCII-only what happen to goat one
 
anyway gtg o/
 
@Downgoat ???
 
@ASCII-only the ascii goat built in
 
@Downgoat nothing happen?
 
@ASCII-only square root would be nice, although I see the deverbosifier optimises power(..., 0.5) to 4 bytes
base conversion?
some sort of filtering operation
 
12:36 AM
wait i don't have filter? crap :|
 
@HyperNeutrino What is SSN?
 
@user202729 Secret Sheep Number
 
is slightly disappointed to find that Maximum(PushOperator(Map(...), 0)) is the same bytecount as Maximum([0, Maximum(Map(...))])
 
Probably this one.
 
@user202729 *definitely
 
12:47 AM
@HyperNeutrino The sequence is asking that how many matrices satisfy the condition that no two matrices can be equivalent under permutation of rows and columns.
 
yay arbitrary precision arithmetic is back in order
well it was a problem with N but anyway
CMP: More builtins first? Or more Wolfram first?
@Neil hmm what would be a good character for base conversion
 
did someone say wasm
I sensed I was needed to crush people's dreams about webassembly
also x | 0 really is idiomatic asm.js, don't question why too much
 
@ASCII-only ok i missed the memo on cmp meaning
 
Getting STDIN in NodeJS is unreasonably difficult to do Syncronously.
 
@ATaco i hate it when stuff like that happens
 
1:01 AM
getting STDIN at all is a nightmare
 
I'm just manually reading it from it's file descriptor.
 
@quartata well someone clearly hasn't used a decent programming language
 
not even C forces you to work with stdin as a file, it has helpers
 
Lua does it easily.
io.read()
Want all of STDIN instead of a line? io.read("*a")
 
or actually the context in which you said that is ambiguous as to whether you mean at all in any language, or at all using nodejs
 
1:02 AM
Just want a number? io.read("*n")
 
node obviously
perl has everyone beat on stdin though
give it -n and it just shows up in $_ ready to go, it's the default argument too
 
when i said "stuff like that", i meant steps that should be simple before actually complex parts
like I wanted to try that os developing tutorial but my sd card reader couldn't find the right partitions
 
@quartata That forces a loop around your code, you might not want that.
 
I really do not like simple things being overcomplicated, such as the unfindable partition I mentioned
 
<> reads a line, which is nice.
(iirc)
@ATaco I wonder if it's because you're using a language that was never intended for desktop use.
 
1:15 AM
@Pavel I'm aware :P
@Pavel <> doesn't necessarily read from STDIN
it reads from whatever file was passed as an argument OR STDIN if none is specified
you probably mean <STDIN>
 
Kinda? <> is generally what I want to do.
 
@Downgoat This is, for real, how emscripten works
That is, all of memory is in one TypedArray
pointers are indices
 
CMP: Should I learn Colemak? (keyboard layout)
 
@HyperNeutrino No
 
one of my friends is like "you should all learn colemak" lol
 
1:18 AM
cmp: chat mini ___?
 
poll
apparently qwerty sucks
 
thanks
@HyperNeutrino why?
 
@HyperNeutrino Why?
 
@user202729 haha it happened again
 
@HyperNeutrino I mean, kinda, it does, yeah.
 
1:19 AM
The last time is with HyperNeutrino.
 
But it doesn't suck so much that you should spent effort on a different layout.
 
tbh I'm surprised that emscripten (and by extent WebAssembly) is as fast as it is
 
I read somewhere / was told that QWERTY was designed to be hard to use so people wouldn't jam typewriters as much.
 
@quartata What is this Web Assembly I keep hearing about anyway. I tried looking it up once but got hopelessly confused.
@HyperNeutrino Yes. Keys commonly pressed one after the other are intentionally spaced apart.
 
@Pavel it's just a kind of bytecode that can run in browsers
 
1:21 AM
 
haha note how they say "load-time-efficient"
giggles
 
ah ok
 
There's probably an electron app that runs on it somewhere.
 
I can get like 100+ WPM on QWERTY usually so I don't think it's really necessary to learn a different layout
 
it's probably be a better use of your time to learn lojban than to learn a new keyboard layout. not that it's a very comparable amount of effort but it's true probably
 
1:21 AM
but my accuracy is not that good lol
 
so instead of trying to compile to JS and have troubles because JS is slow, you can compile to WASM and maybe now it's a little faster
 
@DestructibleLemon no one speak lojban though, maybe like mandarin mgiht be more useful
 
7 times in the history of TNB
 
1:22 AM
@Downgoat lojban is the future
 
I just don't come here often enough for it to saturate the history
 
also lojban doesn't have difficult characters
 
@quartata still
@DestructibleLemon doesn't the knob speak fluent lojban?
or was that esperanto
 
@Neil Yes.
 
@Riker not fluent and yes
 
1:23 AM
@quartata this sentence is oddly amusing
 
no one is really fluent in lojban
 
@quartata ah
@quartata fluent as can be
 
@quartata this is false probably
 
in that case definitely not
sorry dorknoob
 
Anonymous
@HyperNeutrino It wasn't invented to slow down typing. It was designed so that most common words would be typed with keys on alternating sides of the typewrite keyboard (or failing that, at least not right next to each other whenever possible) to avoid keys getting tangled.
 
1:24 AM
@Neil Although ! and not ¬.
 
oh ok right makes sense
 
@Mego i was sort of thinking that
 
I was ranting about wasm right
 
@quartata *rookbond
@quartata yes
 
ok right
 
1:24 AM
carry on it was amusing
 
"load-time efficient" read: we ended up twice as slow as pnacl and we don't know why this happened but it's probably mozilla's fault
 
@Mego back when all those ancient programmers were punching cards, and aeroplanes didn't exist
 
Anonymous
@cairdcoinheringaahing Having the int and gmpwhatever objects be member objects
 
hey I finally managed to get 100+ WPM with 100% accuracy
first (111101002465727946th) try
 
How do you all learn typing so fast?
 
1:29 AM
well I started typing like 20-30 page long research papers/reports in like grade 5
so I learned to type quickly early on so that my typing could match my thinking
 
@DestructibleLemon that’s what they said about juicero
 
Grade 5 = 10 years old?
 
@Downgoat >_> did you just compare lojban to juicero
brb let me look up the lojban word for mafia
 
@DestructibleLemon oui
 
isn't everything a verb in lojban or something like that
@user202729 yes
 
1:32 AM
@HyperNeutrino a bit of an over simplification but a little bit
 
hm ok
 
Is lojban a golfing language?
 
no it's a speaking language
 
also a writing one
it's called "the logical language" which is maybe a bit arrogant but also sort of true at the same time
also they don't have multiple sounds for each letter
well i mean they do a little bit
but not significant ones
 
@DestructibleLemon la grirmafia btw
 
1:36 AM
thanks
where did you find that?
 
fu'ivla obviously
Looked it up in the dictionary
 
ok so apparently go'i means "^"
 
I use this dictionary: la-lojban.github.io
 
cool
I should really learn lojban
 
Lojban sadly doesn't have much practical use.
 
1:41 AM
u wot
well you can update the lojban wikipedia
 
Somewhat ironically it's actually too practical
 
also it's a nice multicultural language and it would be very good to be lingua franca of the planet
 
I want to learn it but I have no idea where to start with learning languages lol
 
i believe there was a guide i was using before i procrastinated
it was pretty good i think
although I'd understand if maybe you don't wanna follow my advice since i never actually finished learning although it's not like we had a control group to say that it was because the guide was bad
also, of course i might not be the best to ask about it, but it seemed to be a fair amount easier to learn than other languages
 
Does its grammar actually make sense? :P
Like French grammar makes no sense half the time
 
1:46 AM
The whole point of it is to make its grammar hyper regular
 
@HyperNeutrino yes it does
 
cool :D
 
@quartata you mean the lack of idioms and such?
 
Not really, just that it has a very consistent grammar. They have an EBNF somewhere IIRC
 
ebnf?
@quartata in what way is it too practical then?
 
1:49 AM
All of it is focused on being unambiguous not being easy to learn
 
not sure about that tbh
if you don't need to learn mega context clues it must make it easier to learn at any rate
also when you learn to speak lojban, you are speaking exclusively with the people that learn lojban, like that xkcd but reversed
 
Well go ahead and give it a shot
 
but I'm lazy
 
CMC: Determine which function yields this graph
 
Is f continuous at c?
 
1:58 AM
@HyperNeutrino Yes
The point is the vertical tangent line
 
(I just need the shape, it's fine to assume c is the origin)
 
I was going to say arctan but that's nowhere close to being vertical at the origin lol
 
And I just figured it out, it's cubert(x)
 
oh lol
 

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