The Nineteenth Byte

Pavel

00:01

Anyone here good with C#? I need some help. How do I covert a given method to an object of type Delegate, given I don't know what parameters it takes?

(Basically I need to convert a method into something I can call DynamicInvoke on)

HyperNeutrino

00:17

I opened a .jpg file as text and parts of it look like Vim and other parts look a lot like Jelly :P

more so Vim because it has accents rather than dots.

ATaco

I tried to open one with Sublime Text but it just correctly opens it as an image.

HyperNeutrino

oh lol

HyperNeutrino

00:29

lol Java is such a pain to use

I figured out how I'd do the next OEIS sequence already

if I were using Python I'd probably be done by now yet I haven't even gotten around to the main part of it yet because too much boilerplate

Why, i cri everytim, why...

ATaco

Solution: Don't use Java

HyperNeutrino

Any suggestions then?

I don't know many languages :P

ATaco

C|C++|C#?

HyperNeutrino

I don't know any of those.

I've been meaning to learn one of them for a while but I never got around to really learning it.

ATaco

I recommend learning C/C++ Some time, it's really worth it.

HyperNeutrino

00:35

I know a few things and I could make a Hello World program but not really too much

@ATaco C# isn't that great?

ATaco

C#'s rather different.

A lot closer to Java than the other Cs.

But C and C++ is great to learn to understand pointers and similar memory management stuff.

HyperNeutrino

Ah okay.

Which one would you recommend for someone who knows Python and Java mainly?

ATaco

If you know more Python than Java, C++, if you know more Java than Python, C#.

HyperNeutrino

Okay. C++ then. Thanks!

(which is the one with the std::cout << "Hello, World!" << std::endl; syntax?)

I recall it being cpp but not sure

user202729

Yes.

ATaco

00:37

Yeah.

Although you can use printf("Hello, World!") if you import stdio.h, but it's not recommended/good practice.

HyperNeutrino

Ah okay.

And C had puts(stuff); right?

ATaco

Boop

It's not that C++ doesn't have puts and printf, it's just that C doesn't have the iostream library, so it doesn't' have std::cout <<

HyperNeutrino

oh ok

Also, is using namespace advised?

ATaco

Some places say use it, some say never use it.

I agree with never use it.

HyperNeutrino

ok

is goto recommended? :P

Also, should I add this syntax to Proton? statement while condition then endstatement => while condition {statement} endstatement

ATaco

00:41

There's always a reason to use goto, but it's never a good reason.

user202729

Consider that Java doesn't have goto, (I think) the only time you should use it is to break from nested loop.

HyperNeutrino

Ah okay.

ATaco

@user202729 Still not a good reason.

HyperNeutrino

Are there loop labels in C? That's the main reason I never needed goto in Java

user202729

No, unfortunately.

HyperNeutrino

00:42

darn

(I realize that the then is unnecessary because I could just replace it with a semicolon, but then that wouldn't be a single statement and braces might be required)

ATaco

goto label;
..
.
label: statement;

user202729

Is there any better way? Return from function?

ATaco

@user202729 Use a boolean, manually break your level. If you're more than 2 levels deep, consider changing your structure, or return from a function.

HyperNeutrino

Loop labels are one of the few things I like about Java over Python.

2. My expectation that the feature will be abused more than it will be
used right, leading to a net decrease in code clarity (measured across
all Python code written henceforth). Lazy programmers are everywhere,
and before you know it you have an incredible mess on your hands of
unintelligible code.

Regardless of how elegant your programming language is, when faced with PPCG, no language can stay beautiful forever :D

Except Jelly. "Jelly is a form of pure art" ~ someone in JHT

ATaco

Brainfuck is beautiful in how ugly it is.

HyperNeutrino

00:49

yup :P

muddyfish

01:22

goto is useful when you're developing in assembly language and cannot use loops

HyperNeutrino

true

ATaco

01:45

goto is useful when there is no other options.

Scrooble

I made extensive use of goto in my early days of TI-BASIC to allow do{code}while(condition) until I found repeat(.

ATaco

MaybeLater has the best control flow.

HyperNeutrino

@ATaco [citation-needed]

or just proof

or just examples, too :P

ATaco

02:03

local returning = 0
when fib is *{
	if(1-returning){
		if(fib >= 2){
			local n = fib
			local a = fib = n - 1
			local b = fib = n - 2
			returning = 1
			fib = a + b
			returning = 0
		}
	}
}

@HyperNeutrino

HyperNeutrino

ooh

but I mean that doesn't show me anything about control structure except the when fib is * part. What does that mean, btw?

ATaco

That is 100% of the control structure. It's assignment based events.

HyperNeutrino

hm. I don't quite get this rip.

ATaco

when fib is * assigns this block to an event that fires whenever fib is set to anything.

user202729

No break/return?

HyperNeutrino

02:04

oh what

that is so cool

muddyfish

That sounds rather inefficient

Also kind of like COMEFROM

HyperNeutrino

lol

anyway brb gotta go deal with something probably quickly

ATaco

Try it online!

It's incredibly inefficient, but it works.

HyperNeutrino

Do you mind if I steal that idea for Proton? xD I find that a really cool concept.

(I'd probably fail at it though so rip)

ATaco

Go for it.

More nonsense

muddyfish

02:10

Basically seems to be subscription based stuff for variables

Does seem kind of cool though :P

ATaco

Essentially is.

And you can cheat and make functions this way.

HyperNeutrino

Wait x is * is an expression in and of itself?

So wait, is when condition a control statement that is executed whenever the condition is matched or something?

@ATaco Is that a cheat for constants :P

ATaco

when takes an event variable, and x is * produces one of these variables.

HyperNeutrino

Huh okay.

How are event variables checked? Is it verified at every layer of evaluation or does it report to the event variable when its condition is matched?

ATaco

The assignment event is particular in that it attaches it to a scope, then when an assignment occurs to a variable, it checks for any attached events in that scope, and fires them if their condition is met.

HyperNeutrino

02:18

Hm okay.

So are there any event variables other than <ident> is <expr>?

ATaco

There's also <expr> <timeunit> passed

HyperNeutrino

hm ok

so like when 2 seconds passed { print ("hi"); } would print "hi" after 2 seconds from the start, right?

ATaco

when 3 second pass{print("Waited 3 seconds...")}

(Got the name of the thing wrong)

HyperNeutrino

oh ok

(wait can't you pluralize "second"?)

ATaco

You can in the latest version, not in TIO's version.

HyperNeutrino

02:30

ah ok

ATaco

And you can repeat something every x seconds by combining assingment events.

when x is 1{
	print("Loop forever, slowly...")
	when 1 second pass{
		x = 1
	}
}
x = 1

HyperNeutrino

Huh interesting.

Wait you could do like anything with these when statements. Nice!

ATaco

Yep, MaybeLater is TC.

HyperNeutrino

What other control flow things do you have?

whoops gtg now o/

ATaco

o/

ASCII-only

02:53

@ATaco Wat. You'd implement Fibonacci as recursion but factorial as for loop???

@DJMcMayhem Well of course, it has to return 1 F(n) times

ATaco

The Factorial recurrsion function is just the for loop version in disguise.

ASCII-only

@ATaco ... Same as Fibonacci...

ATaco

Alright, without referecing an implementation, explain both the functions.

ASCII-only

Explain?

Without referencing an implementation?

f(n) = f(n-1) + f(n-2); f(0) = f(1) = 1
fac(n) = n * fac(n-1); fac(0) = 1

Magik

ATaco

I would explain Factorial as "The product of all numbers up to N" And fibonacci as "The sum of the previous two fibonacci numbers, where the first two numbers are 1."

I explain Factorial linearly, and Fibonacci recurrsively.

ASCII-only

02:58

@ATaco You can only explain factorial like that because of the magic word product...

@ATaco Factorial is "The product of the number and the previous factorial" or something like that

ATaco

I don't use recursion to get the product of a list :P

Anyway, the most important thing is that the for loop is faster.

Maltysen

@IanH. what u need?

ASCII-only

@ATaco Same for fibonacci... (well for fibonacci the for loop is exponentially faster)

ATaco

I've never been consistent, or non-hypocritical.

I have succeeded in making Ackermann in a While loop though :D

Maltysen

I think the word u guys are looking for is tail-recursive

factorial's recursive implementation is tail-recursive which means its basically trivial

ATaco

03:02

Tail-recurrsion is rather different from recurrsion.

Maltysen

yeah

i'm saying that factorial is tail recursive

fibbonacci isn't

ASCII-only

@DJMcMayhem This is why lru_cache exists

Maltysen

that's the distinction @ASCII-only was trying to make

ASCII-only

@ATaco It's not hard to change a for loop to a while loop >_>

ATaco

As long as it doesn't take 29 seconds to calculate 36! :P

@ASCII-only Ackermann is not something generally written in a for loop...

ASCII-only

03:05

@ATaco But that doesn't mean it's very hard at all...

ATaco

I never said it was hard.

I did it by just manually implementing recurrsion.

ASCII-only

@orlp Would adding a second pivot help at all?

> I have succeeded

Well you make it sound like it's hard >_>

ATaco

Show me your implementation then :(

ASCII-only

:|

Ackermann is confusing

ATaco

What's wrong? Is it Hard?

ASCII-only

03:13

No

@DJMcMayhem Also demonstrating the insane power of memoization :P

@Adám Even better, e-ink (or color e-ink?) to save power :P

PhiNotPi

03:43

:D successfully reinstalled my OS's file manager!

I'm always worried that those sorts of things will go terribly wrong.

someone

Try /bin/rm /bin/rm next time

Patrick Roberts

04:14

Hey I have a question, if I post a suggestion on the sandbox that's well-received, is it possible for me to request that someone else actually write the challenge? I don't care that they would get the rep, but I have an awesome and elaborate idea and I don't feel that I have the personal time that would do it justice.

ATaco

Go for it, as long as you have an agreement.

Martin Ender

04:42

@orlp I think I was going to let Peter do that

Patrick Roberts

05:14

codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/14074/42091 Here's the proposal I made

@Downgoat I came across your babel plugin recently, and I like the idea. Have you considered adding support for inlining functions, if their definitions are available in the AST at compile-time?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Pokémon Champion king-of-the-hill decision-problem game internet* This challenge is about writing the ultimate bot for battling Pokémon. Since knowledge of competitive Pokémon battling is necessary, I'll leave that to the experts at Smogon University. Rules Your bot must battle another bot i...

ATaco

06:15

Useless language idea: When an array is stringified, Output it with an and, Eg. [1, 2 and 3]

orlp

08:06

@ASCII-only not in practice

user202729

08:20

**CMC**: Solve the easiest challenges (+, *, ==, Hello World) on PPCG.SE.
Rules:
+ _Programming environment: non-programmable calculator._
+ `==` must return consistent values for truthy and falsy.
+ Hello World is case-insensitive.

New Main Posts

08:42

0

Q: Ten-row bar chart

This is Hole-1 from The Autumn Tournament of APL CodeGolf. I am the original author of the problem there, and thus allowed to re-post it here. Given a list of numbers, produce a horizontal bar chart of # characters for how many numbers fit into each of ten equal-sized groups. For example, if t...

Adám

09:02

@user202729 ==? Also, markdown is not available in multi-line messages.

@user202729 How do you count submission length on a non-programmable calculator? Key presses?

someone

A bigger question is how to output "Hello World" on a calculator

user202729

Forgot that part. Each key press or switch etc. count as 1 byte. Because not very much calculator have >256 bytes that would be good enough.

@someone That's what you have to think about.

Mr. Xcoder

09:25

@Adám Could you add a worked example for your challenge? I find myself in trouble understanding it.

Maybe I am just dumb :)

Nvm, I think I got it.

ASCII-only

10:13

@user202729 :| How to take input

@user202729 It's not possible

@user202729 Non-programmable?

user202729

@ASCII-only Hardcode, just like in ///. Most creative solution win. Nevertheless there exists nonprogrammable calculators that can prompt for input.

ASCII-only

@user202729 Then wouldn't +, * and == be +, × and = respectively?

And Hello World not possible

Neil

@ASCII-only speaking of taking input, what's the best way to input a list of integers in Charcoal?

ASCII-only

10:28

@Neil :| idk

@ASCII-only I should really add python literal input

user202729

@ASCII-only Is there such key =? On which calculator?

ASCII-only

@user202729 CASIO scientific calculators

Erik the Outgolfer

hmm...

non-programmable?

ASCII-only

Yeah?

Erik the Outgolfer

so, + and * are simply a+b= and a×b=

user202729

10:31

But is that used for equality comparison? I don't think so.

Erik the Outgolfer

hello world is impossible

ASCII-only

@user202729 No, his = is EXE

Or w/e it is on scientific calculators

@user202729 Yes

@user202729 ÷ would do the same thing though

user202729

Hello World is possible. Should I post a proof image?

What about ==?

Erik the Outgolfer

I think == can be a-b÷= with error for true

@user202729 you mean the "upside down" thing?

ASCII-only

@EriktheOutgolfer That can't give W

@user202729 Yes please

user202729

10:35

> True/false must be consistent.
In other word the set of truthy values/falsy values must have exactly one element each.

ASCII-only

@user202729 What about it?

Erik the Outgolfer

@user202729 but they are

ASCII-only

Are 1 and an error not consistent?

Erik the Outgolfer

you get 1 for false and 0 error for true

user202729

Indeed. I just not using your calculator. No problem.

Erik the Outgolfer

10:36

what calculator doesn't work

@user202729 yeah

ASCII-only

wait just ÷ doesn't work

Erik the Outgolfer

yes you need the = to make them consistent

ASCII-only

*-

Erik the Outgolfer

still no

ASCII-only

Huh?

Erik the Outgolfer

10:45

you can't just do a-b=

ASCII-only

Yeah

But I misunderstood the "yes you need the = to make them consistent"

@Mego You mean one of the class names right?

Mr. Xcoder

@DJMcMayhem C++. It's just awful. Swift is nice but can get rather annoying sometimes too.

user202729

@ASCII-only The equivalent on Casio esplus / ex series is (a-b)÷(a-b)

ASCII-only

@DJMcMayhem ~~Brain-flak because bracket imbalances are annoying~~ Malbolge because it's just a pain (ADJUST to a lesser extent). On a more serious note, Java - it's more terrible than C# in about everything, or C because manual memory management

user202729

Or, in less keystrokes: <a>[-]<b>[=][÷][Ans][=] (5 keys)

Erik the Outgolfer

10:51

wait can you do parentheses

user202729

It depends on the calculator you uses.

New Main Posts

0

Q: Did you hear about alphametics?

Task The letters spell out actual words, but if you replace each letter with a digit from 0–9, it also “spells” an arithmetic equation. The trick is to figure out which letter maps to each digit. All the occurrences of each letter must map to the same digit, no digit can be repeated, and no “wor...

math number alphabet

Mr. Xcoder

11:21

@DJMcMayhem Python 3, 69 bytes Try It Online!

Ugh, the new top bar messed up the userscript. Now you cannot change the settings of the userscript, and Sandbox viewer doesn't work anymore.... :(

New Main Posts

11:59

1

Q: Square pyramidal numbers

A000330 - OEIS Task Your task is simple, generate a sequence that, given index i, the value on that position is the sum of squares from 0 upto i where i >= 0. Example: Input: 4 Output: 30 (0^2 + 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 + 4^2) Input: 5 Output: 55 (0^2 + 1^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 + 4^2 + 5^2) ...

code-golf number sequence arithmetic

AdmBorkBork

12:56

Giant fighting robots to be streamed on Twitch tonight at 7pm US Pacific Time (UTC 02:00)

Anonymous

@AdmBorkBork I love everything about that sentance

Mr. Xcoder

Who (used to be) ՊՓԼՃՐՊՃՈԲՍԼ?

dim

I'll award my last bounty to the Tetris answers tomorrow, if anybody wants to follow with some more bounties. This has cost me an arm and a leg, but it was really deserved.

muddyfish

13:15

I was slightly confused as to why my rep counter went up a load until I finally noticed I got one of those bounties :3

dim

I'm suprised you could have been surprised. You probably expected a few bounties when you posted the answer, weren't you?

Mr. Xcoder

@muddyfish I think I'll put a bounty on your answer too after this massive wave of +500's, since you received fewer bounties than the other crew members

muddyfish

Well I was expecting one at some point but I'd kind of forgotten about it after a while :P

Mr. Xcoder

:o it's the first I don't see any mod in chat, or at least grayed out.

muddyfish

:O

dim

13:21

Anyway, well done again, guys. At some point, I thought I could finish what I started to make, but I took too long, and I moved on with something else... I'm glad it got answered, though.

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder molarmanful aka Mama Fun Roll

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego This user?

Anonymous

@dim We actually organized the posting of the answers in anticipation of bounties :P

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Yep

Mr. Xcoder

Ok thanks!

New Sandboxed Posts

13:32

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Output the simplified Goodstein sequence. sequence code-challenge A number is in base-b simplified Goodstein form if it is written as b + b + ... + b + c, c < b The simplified Goodstein sequence of a number starts with writing the number in base-1 simplified Goodstein form, then replacing ...

Simply Beautiful Art

Should I add math to my proposal?

Mr. Xcoder

@SimplyBeautifulArt 1. math should indeed be added. Why is it a code-challenge rather than code-golf?

J. Salle

@SimplyBeautifulArt yeah, and I also think the explanation is kinda confusing.

Mr. Xcoder

yes you should clarify.

HyperNeutrino

hi everyone

Simply Beautiful Art

13:40

Hm... I guess code-golf would work

Mr. Xcoder

Hi Hyper

HyperNeutrino

I have some progress on the most recent OEIS sequence:

J. Salle

Sup Hyper

HyperNeutrino

(click expand to full text)
https://tio.run/##nVhZb9s4EH52fgXbh9ZqFG@SAvsQH4u26AIFukDRpvtiqIBsMwltWdJSUo5tvX89OzMkRVKH4zYPscg5OJzj45Dr@DY@yXKerlebx0exzTNZsjVMjqpSJKM3UsYPxfioRfgoirJjmvgV7SheFKWMlyUTacnlVbzk7G2WJTxO32XbhUi5ZN@PBjXXQtHYUhGHZpzwqzKsqVJc35TB@GjXqf/9P1WciPJhchmyr7NO9RxZiuGl1vvV1bhM4qJgn2IhJx9D9pkUfGTJ@GjwmUnY0SCvFolYEscQCMDDZIBcg/JGFKOETYlbjSSMQGqwGwys8r9ikaJAUcYlaLrNxIrlEnZg9juP5hHbxqUU90rzVSaZJTKZ3bELj8HjYByowKNJgy8PRcm3o6wqR2oZzv5gZ8BzGoy7GV6yl4q0O@ogJ@mQqECEPZltWPMa0YMZL364AfR32EqFK2Ux@IhDRqHQKOHpdXnDplMlo8e4uqONF1VSgqdTflcv4khHY@NCMJ4JYDwdw89ECxqdTBwfB3puLiJguxqZraA2mAuVFfB…

J. Salle

@HyperNeutrino I got an empty code here

Mr. Xcoder

13:41

CMC:

in Jelly Hypertraining, 55 mins ago, by Mr. Xcoder

CMC: Compute the first N even triangular numbers.

HyperNeutrino

@J.Salle Did you click "see full text"?

Mr. Xcoder

@J.Salle You must see the full text of the message for it to work.

J. Salle

@HyperNeutrino nope, hahahahahah

HyperNeutrino

ಠ_ಠ :P

user202729

@HyperNeutrino What are you doing with OEIS sequences?

HyperNeutrino

13:42

One OEIS after another challenge

Mr. Xcoder

ಠ_ಠ Octave nearly ties Pyth

J. Salle

That's a whole bunch of lines, what is the sequence?

Mr. Xcoder

@J.Salle OEIS A000080

Number of nonisomorphic minimal triangle graphs.

Simply Beautiful Art

@J.Salle How about now?

Mr. Xcoder

@HyperNeutrino Since it only has a few known terms, why not hardcode it?

[1, 1, 2, 4, 9, 19, 48, 117, 307, 821, 2277, 6437, 18634, 54775, 163703, 495529, 1518706, 4703848, 14714754, 46444979, 147832051, 474229588, 1532565644]

Giuseppe

13:45

Because it's infinite

Mr. Xcoder

oh nvm

HyperNeutrino

@Mr.Xcoder You'd have to hardcode at least 1000 terms unless it's a finite sequence.

J. Salle

@SimplyBeautifulArt way better IMO

Simply Beautiful Art

Okay, thanks.

HyperNeutrino

There's a slight problem with my current code though; it seems to be missing one of the graphs for order 6 (graph 2 from the left here)

J. Salle

13:47

@HyperNeutrino completely unrelated but they look like fat fish, lean fish, triforce and spacecraft, in that order

HyperNeutrino

I agree.

:P

Anonymous

→ 6 messages moved to Trash

HyperNeutrino

My approach is to start with a graph of order nodes with no edges, and then essentially BFS all steps adding a cycle to the previous graphs each time until all end graphs are connected.

Anonymous

Please avoid excessive smileys/emoticons/whatever you want to call that

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego I hoped someone would trash those. Sorry.

HyperNeutrino

13:49

@icrieverytim I blame you for my troubles; I have to use Java because you used all of the Python versions :c :P

user202729

@HyperNeutrino So you are writing a program for calculating that sequence in Java?

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Smileys at the end of an otherwise not-noise message aren't really a problem. Smileys in place of real messages can be.

HyperNeutrino

Well it's only two and it's inline; those took up a whole 5 lines because they were separate.

@user202729 Yes. That's the current challenge.

Simply Beautiful Art

@Mego okay, sorry.

HyperNeutrino

Can anyone help brainstorm potential reasons my code is missing the lean fish graph?

Mr. Xcoder

13:51

I'm out, I am parallel with graph-theory.

HyperNeutrino

lol

Simply Beautiful Art

@Mr.Xcoder I'm orthogonal. We've crossed paths once, but I never saw it again.

Mr. Xcoder

You mathematicians...

Simply Beautiful Art

Yes us mathematicians :P

HyperNeutrino

I'm a closed meander. I keep running into it and it's always just going back to the same problems...

J. Salle

13:55

I've never studied graph theory, so I know next to nothing about most of it

Anonymous

I'm a penguin. I'm not even in the same realm as graph theory.

4

Simply Beautiful Art

Should I mention that the shortest code wins, or can I leave it out since I have the tag code-golf?

Anonymous

@SimplyBeautifulArt It's not necessary, because code-golf implies that.

Mr. Xcoder

I've just seen the most obfuscated math.se post ever ಠ_ಠ

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego what?

Simply Beautiful Art

13:56

Okay

J. Salle

@SimplyBeautifulArt what Mego said, although a lot of people add it anyway

Anonymous

@EriktheOutgolfer What else could possibly be the win condition for a code-golf challenge?

Erik the Outgolfer

I thought it was consensus to mention something along the lines of "this is code-golf, shortest code wins"?

Simply Beautiful Art

@Mr.Xcoder Bet I've seen worse :-)

Anonymous

@EriktheOutgolfer Some people do it, but it's not required. The tag implies the win condition. Some people just like to make it explicit.

Simply Beautiful Art

13:57

Meh, can't hurt to mention it I suppose.

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego Actually the consensus is that it's needed (to ease the understanding of new users). Let me find the link.

Anonymous

But it's golfier without :P

Mr. Xcoder

Here is the consensus.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego umm, is this a consensus?

HyperNeutrino

What, are we golfing our challenges now too?

J. Salle

13:58

@Mego I heard you like golf, so I golfed the question

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Huh, I never saw that post.

Anonymous

I never put "shortest code wins" in my challenges, so shrug

Erik the Outgolfer

so it is a consensus, and it's just that it's not strictly enforced

HyperNeutrino

I put it about 70% of the time. I'm very inconsistent :P

Anonymous

It's a "should" consensus, not a "must" consensus

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