The Nineteenth Byte

Adám

19:00

@Zacharý Appendix C?

musicman523

U+2192 RIGHTWARDS ARROW → U+21A6 RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR 7→ U+21D2 RIGHTWARDS DOUBLE ARROW ⇒ oh god

Zacharý

Yep. Appendix C.

If Fortress was still alive ... I would be so happy.

musicman523

I like appendices D and E

that's the stuff that really interests me

Zacharý

What, the grammar?

musicman523

Ye

Appendix E is so long hahahaha

Zacharý

19:02

Well, it's meant for the IMPLEMENTORS of the language.

Adám

@Zacharý Do all the symbols have meaning?

Zacharý

Most have meaning in standard library types.

musicman523

Oh they use Packrat parsing, that's cool

I've done that

Zacharý

But ... every one of them CAN have meaning with operator overloading.

Sun/Oracle ... you are so dumb. WHY, WHY?

Adám

@Zacharý I could easily fit that on a keyboard, and I like it. However, remembering the order precedence – oh the dread!

Zacharý

19:06

Well ... yeah. I think the precedence isn't that bad.

It's bad though.

Adám

@Zacharý When you have that many operators, universal left or right associativity is the way to go.

Zacharý

Nah, if I design a language like that ... It'll be a few precedence rules (mainly for arithmetic operators)

HyperNeutrino

question: does anyone here know thing about laptop hardware etc

Zacharý

Not a clue. I'm just an algorithm/software guy.

totallyhuman

screw it imma sign up for jelly

Okx

19:08

@EriktheOutgolfer it failed on the isup.me testcase

totallyhuman

gib ultimate golfing powers

Zacharý

I think most of the operators are lumped together, as in C.3.4

When a language is close to math like Fortress is, you shouldn't use universal left/right associativity (otherwise you'd probably end up with a fancy APL)

Leaky Nun

CMC: all length-2 substrings

HyperNeutrino

does SE have a hardware site?

totallyhuman

@LeakyNun which character sets?

Adám

19:17

@LeakyNun APL: 2,/⊢

Zacharý

APL 5 bytes: 2,/⊢

Leaky Nun

@totallyhuman whatever

Zacharý

Ninja'd

HyperNeutrino

Jelly, 8 bytes: ẆL=2$$Ðf

Adám

@Zacharý Doing the student competition?

@HyperNeutrino I do not believe that is the shortest solution.

HyperNeutrino

19:19

me neither

Leaky Nun

CMC: 'abcdefg',3 gives 'abbcccdddeeeffg' (please help me come up with a description)

Zgarb

@LeakyNun Husk, 4 bytes: Szet TIO

Adám

@LeakyNun Jelly: ṡ2

HyperNeutrino

Jelly, 6 bytes (for the first one): x2ḊṖs2

wait is there a builtin

totallyhuman

lol

HyperNeutrino

19:21

oh

I was searching for "sub" but it's just called a "slice" >.< WHY NAMING INCONSISTENCIES

totallyhuman

edit it to include common aliases?

Adám

@HyperNeutrino In general, if APL or J has a useful function-operator combo, (verb-adverb in J lingo), Jelly has a built-in.

HyperNeutrino

lol true

@totallyhuman maybe, or at least make it consistent

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Why dis you ping me with the keyboard layout?

Adám

@LeakyNun gradually duplicate more and more until N duplicates, then step down again.

Mr. Xcoder

19:23

@Adám Why did you ping me with the keyboard layout?

Adám

2 hours ago, by Mr. Xcoder

How DO YOU ALL learn golfing languages? And how do you type the strange characters? Do yo copy-paste from the codepage?

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Yes, the second question is answered. Bot how do you learn them (those that are not created by you)?

I mean, you always have to look what each character does

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder Can't really answer, I don't know any. However, when it comes to symbols, I suppose APL isn't that much different from golfing languages.

Nathan Merrill

I mean, are they that different from normal languages?

like, you have to look up what different words do in other languages

Mr. Xcoder

@NathanMerrill There is no SO for golfing languages...

Nathan Merrill

19:27

memorizing what this or that does is part of learning any language. Given, golfing languages are harder to learn, but it's still there

@Mr.Xcoder oh, yeah, but there's a chat with most of their creators :)

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder There is, PPCG tips

Mr. Xcoder

@NathanMerrill probably I lack the will to learn one.

@Adám I know :/

Ok, time to sleep. Bye!

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder Like with any natural language, you learn a basic vocabulary first, and then add words and phrases as you go along.

Leaky Nun

@Adám title?

Adám

@LeakyNun Capped string ladder.

Leaky Nun

19:31

what means "capped"?

Step Hen

It's just harder to intuit golfing languages, since they usually don't use English, descriptive words to do what you want. And you don't have intellisense.

HyperNeutrino

@LeakyNun I'm trying to do this to get the repetition amounts, but the U at the end doesn't do anything. What am I doing wrong?

Adám

@LeakyNun There is an upper limit (so it doesn't become a pyramid).

Nathan Merrill

@StepHen yeah. You don't really need the english words, but if there's no intellisense, its no go :)

Leaky Nun

@HyperNeutrino this

HyperNeutrino

19:41

ohhhhh right. thanks.

@LeakyNun I'm able to get this far on the capped string pyramid CMC, but I'm sure it could be shorter, and I can't figure out what to do after this.

Adám

20:00

@LeakyNun APL: {⍵/⍨⍺⌊i⌊⌽i←⍳≢⍵}

Zacharý

@Adám Heh> No, that wouldn't work for that problem anyways.

Adám

@Zacharý Correct, but that's a yes then.

Zacharý

20:27

What was even the purpose of that question anyways?

Adám

@Zacharý ?

Zacharý

Oh, I misread the question...
Yes, I'm doing the student competition.

Sorry about that confusion.

Okx

@LeakyNun Wouldn't it be abbcccddddeeeffg (4 ds)

totallyhuman

@Okx then what's the point of the second parameter

Okx

oh

Zacharý

20:33

Why do you ask, @Adám, are you just curious?

muddyfish

I finally completed my second foobar challenge

Adám

@Zacharý Just curious. When I say your CMC solution, I figured you'd been down that lane.

muddyfish

Completed in: 7 hrs, 31 mins, 3 secs.

Zacharý

Hey, "that"'s fixed!

(Dyalog APL website's navbar is back)

Adám

@Zacharý Yeah. I reported it right away.

musicman523

20:38

@muddyfish The google foobar thing? How did you get in?

muddyfish

@musicman523 I got in a couple of months ago but I waited until after I completed all my exams to get working on it

Zacharý

I'm wondering how many people on PPCG are doing the student competition?

muddyfish

Basically I googled 'itertools' :P

musicman523

Ughhhhhhh I want in

Adám

Uh oh, wonder if RSS feeds and Twitter bots can go into infinite loops…

HyperNeutrino

20:39

Wait there's a competition? What is it about?

Adám

@HyperNeutrino dyalog.com/student-competition.htm

HyperNeutrino

@Adám I wouldn't be surprised if so.

@Adám Oh it's an APL thing?

Zacharý

Good luck HyperNeutrino!

Which competition, foobar or Dyalog?

Adám

@HyperNeutrino So much for learning Jelly… Won't win you any cash prizes or overseas trips!

HyperNeutrino

Dyalog. But hey, at least I can still do CCC, ECHO, and Beaver with Python, APL isn't accepted for any of those!

Zacharý

20:42

You don't really learn Jelly, you just use the wiki page constantly.

10

HyperNeutrino

To be fair, you do have to understand how the tacit structure works. I think it exists in APL too; they're called trains or something like that?

Zacharý

Yeah, but it's optional in APL.

HyperNeutrino

Also I see you have selected a less boring username.

Zacharý

Who, me?

HyperNeutrino

@Zacharý Ah ok. It's the only way to use jelly :P

@Zacharý Yes you

totallyhuman

20:44

ý tho

Adám

@Zacharý Grrr, yeah, one I can't type with my current layout.

totallyhuman

you don't have a combining accent key?

Zacharý

What? I thought your APL layout had that?

HyperNeutrino

I don't even have keys in the first place because I am currently confined to mobile >.<

Zacharý

Hold down the base character. Might work.

Adám

20:45

@totallyhuman I do, but I simply didn't add all combos. Each one has to be defined separately, as there Unicode's tables are not available to the keyboard layout.

@Zacharý I only added the accented characters which form valid Dyalog APL identifiers.

HyperNeutrino

Works for some chars. Not for the y/ though

The only thing that shows up is 6

Zacharý

ý is because of ... Czech orthography, (I am not Czech, nor do I speak Czech, but the orthography maps very closely to the phonology)

Adám

ý

== Translingual == === Letter === ý (upper case Ý) The letter y with an acute accent. ==== See also ==== (Latin script): Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp Qq Rr Sſs Tt Uu Vv Ww Xx Yy Zz (Variations of letter Y): Ýý Ỳỳ Ŷŷ ẙ Ÿÿ Ỹỹ Ẏẏ Ȳȳ Ỷỷ Ỵỵ Ɏɏ Ƴƴ ʏ Ｙｙ Ꝡꝡ (Letters using acute accent or double acute accent): Áá Ắắ Ấấ Ǻǻ Ćć Ḉḉ Éé Ếế Ǵǵ Íí Ḯḯ Ḱḱ Ĺĺ Ḿḿ Ńń Óó Őő Ớớ Ṍṍ Ǿǿ Ṕṕ Ŕŕ Śś Úú Űű Ứứ Ẃẃ Ýý Źź Ǽǽ == Czech == === Letter === ý (lower case, upper case Ý) The fortieth letter of the Czech alphabet, writte...

HyperNeutrino

interesting

Zacharý

Wait ... APL accepts the capital form but not the lowercase?

Adám

20:48

TIL that Wiktionary one-boxes.

HyperNeutrino

@Zacharý Yeah, it's APL, not apl

Zacharý

And only lowercase thorn?

Adám

@Zacharý Yeah, the Classic character set has a few oddities. Also, it has lowercase ł þ ß but not their uppercases.

Zacharý

ß ... doesn't really have an uppercase.

Adám

Capital ẞ

Capital sharp s (ẞ; German: Versal-Eszett) is the majuscule (uppercase) form of the eszett (also called sharp s) ligature in German orthography (ß). German eszett is, in origin, a ligature of two minuscule (lowercase) letters, long s and tailed z, and as such has no traditional majuscule form. Nevertheless, typefaces used for printing German language texts during the early 20th century have often included capital eszett glyphs. There were repeated calls to include capital eszett in official German orthography, particularly in the early 20th century, and again during the 1950s and 1960s in East...

Zacharý

20:52

Not even extended ASCII has capital ß, not odd to exclude it.

Adám

We had a fierce debate about what to do when we ported 819⌶ (case folding) to Classic: Should we leave the letters that could not be folded within ⎕AV as-is, or should we signal a TRANSLATION ERROR?

HyperNeutrino

Is that a rectangular box or am I missing a font

Zacharý

Which one, the wiki link?

Adám

@HyperNeutrino In ⎕AV, it is a box.

HyperNeutrino

why is it a box >.< that looks like a missing char

Adám

20:56

[oh no, this again‽]

HyperNeutrino

:P

totallyhuman

quad

quad

DJMcMayhem

CMC: Given one of these 5 characters: `'^~: and a vowel (not including y), combine them according to this table:

  ` ' ^ ~ :
a à á â ã ä
e è é ê   ë
i ì í î   ï
o ò ó ô õ ö
u ù ú û   ü

totallyhuman

Unicode >.>

Adám

@HyperNeutrino APL predates Unicode by several decades. Also, the proper missing-character character is �, not a white rectange, despite what some systems render.

Zacharý

20:57

Why ú capital?

HyperNeutrino

@Adám oh ok. makes sense

Adám

@DJMcMayhem DV: Why the arbitrary selection?

DJMcMayhem

@Zacharý Typo. When I type ú in lowercase on my system, it opens up an NVIDIA panel. Fixed now

Zacharý

Latin supplement

DJMcMayhem

@Adám What's arbitrary?

totallyhuman

20:58

@DJMcMayhem wut? why?

HyperNeutrino

also should be " not : to be consistent with the compose key

Adám

@DJMcMayhem ~ on a and o, but not on n or any other.

Zacharý

Latin 1 supplement block of unicode doesn't have e, i, u tilde.

DJMcMayhem

@HyperNeutrino Is it? That doesn't work for me in vim compose. I'm not really sure what the standard is

^^

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Nah, should really be ` ´ ^ ~ ¨

DJMcMayhem

20:59

@Adám And there isn't an n to begin with

Zacharý

There's a separate circumflex.

Adám

@Zacharý There are separate combining chars for each of those.

DJMcMayhem

@totallyhuman I have no clue.

HyperNeutrino

true but the point is ascii -> Unicode. and also there's no real standard i was just talking about Linux compose key lol

Zacharý

GTF for ~30 minutes.

Adám

21:01

@DJMcMayhem Almost a dup:

20

Q: Take that frown and turn it around

A celebration of the many faces of APL Given a string among those in column 1 or column 2 of the below table, return the string's neighbor to its right. In other words, if given a string in column 1 then return column 2's string on that row, and if given a string in column 2 then return column 3...

DJMcMayhem

Weird. Vim compose does work with ", but only for some of the letters. I get this: ä ë i ő ű

(But it doesn't render 'o' or 'u')

HyperNeutrino

interesting. how do you compose in vim

DJMcMayhem

i<C-k>

HyperNeutrino

oh ok. thanks

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Ick.

DJMcMayhem

21:03

Haha

@Adám Anyway, the arbitrary selection is to just keep it simpler. You don't have to special case inputs like ~e because you can assume they won't happen, that way it all fits in the latin1 encoding, which I thought would make the challenge easier.

Adám

@DJMcMayhem I would take out the incomplete column.

DJMcMayhem

So no tilde inputs?

:%norm 9|2x

  ` ' ^ :
a à á â ä
e è é ê ë
i ì í î ï
o ò ó ô ö
u ù ú û ü

Mendeleev

Is anyone active in chat right now?

totallyhuman

i'm not running, so no

Mendeleev

not my point

Please rate my web design

DJMcMayhem

21:10

Uhm...

It's basically plaintext, what is there to rate?

totallyhuman

^

Mendeleev

Umm

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Yeah.

Mendeleev

But hey, I'm getting >100 MB/s update speeds

Zacharý

Yeah, majority of operators in Fortress don't have defined precedences.

DJMcMayhem

21:15

That's nice

I just had my Internet speed randomly bumped up by 30 MB/s for no cost.

Adám

@DJMcMayhem APL: 'aàáâäeèéêëiìíîïoòóôöuùúûü'⊃⍨0 5⊥'aeio' ' `''^'⍳¨,

HyperNeutrino

:o I just had my internet suddenly start working for no reason

totallyhuman

Why was it not working in the first place

HyperNeutrino

well my laptop has connection issues

but after the left hinge broke I think it started working again

Zacharý

@Adám Did you forget a u?

Mendeleev

21:18

@DJMcMayhem Nice!

What provider?

Adám

@Zacharý No, why?

Mendeleev

@HyperNeutrino Maybe you've just reached the set time :P

Zacharý

Sorry, it works, 'aeio' just doesn't look right..

DJMcMayhem

@Mendeleev Comcast

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem Oh. I have Comcast as well.

HyperNeutrino

21:20

@Mendeleev no, it's 5:20PM right now :P It's meant to work from 7 to 10:30

Mendeleev

They promise 175 MB/s but I get speeds closer to 240

Adám

@Zacharý It is golfed. When ⍳ doesn't find something, it returns +highest index. Same thing applies to ~`.

Mendeleev

@HyperNeutrino Wait, 7 PM? Wut

To 10::30 AM?

HyperNeutrino

7 AM to 10:30 PM

DJMcMayhem

@Mendeleev Damn. How much does that cost?

Mendeleev

21:20

@HyperNeutrino So you can't use the internet during the day?

HyperNeutrino

I guess I should say 0700-2230

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem I'm not sure, it's my dad who's paying for it

HyperNeutrino

> it's meant to work

Mendeleev

I think it's definitely under $80

@HyperNeutrino Please elaborate

Oh, nevermind

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Slightly golfier APL: 'aàâäáeèêëéiìîïíoòôöóuùûüú'⊃⍨0 5⊥'aeio' ' `^:'⍳¨,

@DJMcMayhem APL: 'aeiouàèìòùáéíóúâêîôûäëïöüã õ'⊃⍨0 5⊥' `''^:' 'aeio'⍳¨,

HyperNeutrino

21:30

Hm I wonder why changing my parent site to StackOverflow gives me 1.4k extra network rep

Is it because SO rep doesn't count normally because SO has its own chat domain?

@Christopher

> "No matter how many friends you lose... You can always make more." - Michael J. Caboose

DJMcMayhem

@HyperNeutrino Does it still do that after refreshing?

HyperNeutrino

I don't entirely agree with this statement :P

@DJMcMayhem yes

> No matter how much rep you lose... you can always gain more

DJMcMayhem

Hmm. It's the same for me, but only after I refresh

Einkorn Enchanter

same

this seems like a thing to bring up on the meta

HyperNeutrino

like the meta, right? it might be there already, i'll go check

Zacharý

21:39

I'm wondering if Uriel is doing the Student competition.

Adám

@Zacharý I'm sure he is.

Zacharý

> However, to be eligible for any of the cash prizes you must be a full time student at any primary or secondary school, college or graduate university and able to submit proof of full-time enrolment in a school or a university.

Why do they specifically state primary school, or is it just to include everyone?

HyperNeutrino

0

Q: Chat Network Reputation changes when parent site is changed to StackOverflow

When I have my chat parent account set to codegolf.stackexchange.com (the site I hang around most), my network reputation shows up as 6.9k (which is my PPCG reputation). However, when I set it to StackOverflow (1.3k rep), my network rep becomes 8.3k. Now, I am aware that StackOverflow and MetaSta...

support bug reputation chat parent-user

lirtosiast

Hello everyone

Zacharý

Hello

lirtosiast

21:47

I'm not here much but I thought of an idea for a challenge and before even sandboxing it I want to see whether it's been done

Zacharý

Well, this is now biased: strawpoll.com/1xcgg2e (poll for time zones w/o DST)

lirtosiast

The basic idea is [code-challenge]: Create the file that compresses to the LARGEST file using LZMA

Adám

@Zacharý Because in some countries various levels of school have differing terms. So they want to include all possibilities. E.g. people would could "primary school" until age ≈17

lirtosiast

Many files become a lot larger when compressed, and I think it may be interesting to find the largest

Least compressible

HyperNeutrino

hey am I the only UTC-4 person :o

CensoredUsername

21:50

what country is even at UTC-4

greenland?

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Brazil?

Zacharý

I remember thinking back near when 2017 competition started ... who did this in PRIMARY school?

HyperNeutrino

...canada

Zacharý

A part of Canada is UTC-4.

CensoredUsername

huh greenland is at UTC-3 even

Adám

21:51

Ah yes. the Eastern or Atlantic time.

Zacharý

Greenland is ... odd.

Adám

Greenland has one airbase which is -4.

CensoredUsername

always think that the east coast is at UTC-6 as it's 6 hours away from my time but I'm at UTC+1 so it's at -5

DJMcMayhem

@HyperNeutrino KritixiLithos is in denmark which is UTC-4

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Most of Denmark (population-wise) is in +1.

DJMcMayhem

21:53

Oh wait, ignore me

HyperNeutrino

@DJMcMayhem Ah okay. Interesting.

DJMcMayhem

Durr

HyperNeutrino

wait hold on

|-4-+1| = 5

I don't think Denmark is 75 degrees wide :)))

Adám

@HyperNeutrino It is. One of the most expansive countries in the world.

CensoredUsername

the kingdom of denmark is :)

HyperNeutrino

21:54

it is? I don't geography so I would need to look up a map :)))

DJMcMayhem

I just googled UTC-4 and it said Greenland (Denmark) so I just didn't question it cause I'm a geography idiot

CensoredUsername

(greenland is part of the kingdom of denmark)

HyperNeutrino

oh

Zacharý

And a corner of Greenland is UTC-4.

DJMcMayhem

Anyway, I was going to say...

Dennis is definitely in UTC-4

CensoredUsername

21:55

just like the kingdom of the netherlands stretches over 6 time zones as well

HyperNeutrino

yeah I'm a ~~geography~~ general idiot

fun fact: china stretches over 1 time zone

Zacharý

"Deneral idiot" ...

DJMcMayhem

@CensoredUsername Relevant: what-if.xkcd.com/48

Adám

DJMcMayhem

Also strangely relevant: what-if.xkcd.com/53

HyperNeutrino

21:56

@Zacharý you saw nothing

CensoredUsername

as a dutch person, believe me, I've seen that one often enough to make it stop being funny

DJMcMayhem

The first or the second?

CensoredUsername

the second

Zacharý

Fun fact: you can jump 14 hours between adjacent timezones.
(I think I remember that right)

Mendeleev

@Adám Why is the APL on Linux so wimpy?

It just opens a console with the APL inside

Zacharý

21:58

LOL. (I have it on Linux).

Adám

@Mendeleev Try RIDE.

Transcript for