Hello

oooh fanatic

I was on the Java room

@flawr Thanks, but too much responsibility for me, I'm afraid. And I'm not always here

My timezone is your timezone :-P

Out of curiosity, who are the chat mods ATM and what are the requirements for becoming one?

@MistahFiggins the room owners are listed here: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/240/the-nineteenth-byte and right now the requirements are just to get enough votes here: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/11320/…

@Mego What I thought you were a mod already

@Qwerp-Derp ...

Mods have blue names

And diamonds

I just realised :(

@quartata Java is cool :) I'm making a small app using Processing

Just to get comfortable with Java

Yeah, I meant enough votes on the election in general, not just that post. But not being sanctioned yet is an important note

It makes sense, given that people can downvote too

To avoid that, you should probably use comments on the original question as voting, a la Best of 2016

From the SE app, viewing a question, is there a quick way to visit the main page of the site the question is on?

Without looking it up if it is not in your common sites?

@HelkaHomba Click on one of the tags, and then click the sort order to active, votes, or some other tag

@MistahFiggins New room owners can be appointed on chat, but not new moderators. The only way to become a chat moderator is to first become a site moderator for one of the Stack Exchange sites, which automatically makes you a chat moderator in all Stack Exchange chat rooms.

So.

Trump.

Opinions?

I prefer not to swear. goodday.

Please don't provoke a political debate in here.

What's the submission deadline for the 2017 Time Capsule?

@DLosc 2017's end, I think

@Downgoat does require cache? E.g., is require("a").b; require("a").c less efficient than a=require("a"); a.b; a.c?

Yes it caches

the cache is global across entire execution

fantastic, thank you :D

you can clear it if you want

@ConorO'Brien Huh, okay. That's generous, but I guess it makes sense. The only odd thing is it's not much of a "time capsule" if I submit on December 31.

I was under the impression initially that the language would be essentially secret until 2018, where we would have to learn the language at the time to polyglot

@ConorO'Brien The former is quite ugly though.

But you get to release the language so It can be available for at most a year

@quartata Thanks quartata. Shall I be the one to tell the code, or would you like the honours? >_>

In all seriousness, I do believe this looks nicer than the alternative:

const equal   = require("./../src/funcs.js").equal;
const defined = require("./../src/funcs.js").defined;
const repr    = require("./../src/funcs.js").repr;

this the easiest way to clear the console:

    console.log("\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n");

Did they just...

@Downgoat the heck

lines = process.stdout.getWindowSize()[1];
for(let i = 0; i < lines; i++)
    stdout += "\r\n";
stdout += "\x1B[0f";

process.stdout.write(stdout);

@ConorO'Brien better: import {equal, defined, repr} from "../src/funcs.js" or using normal node: var {equal, defined, repr} = require("../src/funcs.js")

@Downgoat yeah I don't use babel

:(

@MistahFiggins You do get to publish the language during 2017? That's what I thought at first, but on a reread it's not entirely clear from the form heading.

I'm pretty sure...

You can't do more than one import without Babel? (The latter I get is structure unpacking which needs ES6)

but the former just looks like regular Node

@quartata ._. of course you can.

For reference, here are the responses people made tot he capsule so far

That is just nice way to do it

you have very low expectations for node

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying

I don't get why the first one needs ES6

it's import

@Downgoat and object destructing doesn't work in node, I just tested it

you are using old version of node

It works in 6.x I think and definetly in 7.x

λ node -v
v6.2.1

and I really don't feel like updating node

@MistahFiggins Ah, ok.

esp. since most people are probably still on 6.x

@ConorO'Brien actually 4.x IIRC

which is why you should use babel ;P

right. I like being able to test my code within a minute, thank you very much

Just found this

donaldtracker.com/article/messages/success/images/trump.gif lol

@wat please unonebox that horrendous thing

@ConorO'Brien here's some eye bleach

Haha! ^_^

One cat picture was already plenty. Can we not completely fill the page with unneeded cat pictures

(As you can tell I am dog/goat person)

say what's a good language for beginners? (Not javascript, Downgoat.)

"Hows my driving?" usually goes on the back

@ConorO'Brien Cheddar

super-easy to use

comes with no surprises or weird quirks

@ConorO'Brien ruby

@Downgoat That requires a degree in unix-ology to install >_>

and to install npm

@ConorO'Brien npm i -g cheddar-lang is very difficult

which is javascript >_> I need to start him off right

Okay, start him off on C++

he doesn't know anything about programming tho

it is not easy but if you start with Python, JS, or a scripting language you will head him/her off in wrong direction

@Downgoat It is for someone who's never touched a command-line before.

Scratch

@DLosc thank you

if he is totally beginner

How about Ruby

@MistahFiggins I've lead him through google blockly, etc.

@ConorO'Brien oh, actually C# or Java

@quartata i said that already

@quartata ruby is definitely up there, along with python.

@wat it's nice to hear it from multiple people

I would say java because I am a java person

@Downgoat It really does help. Kudos for that.

@ConorO'Brien ok

@Downgoat "Java" -- I said I wanted to help him not to harm him >_>

but if you want to "start him off right" C(|\+\+)

@ConorO'Brien okay than C#

@wat sorry, that was ambiguous. By "right" I meant "not javascript"

@ConorO'Brien haha true

@wat golfed: C(\+\+)?

oh wait that didn't golf sorry

C[+]{2}?

@Downgoat more golfed: C\+*

if we're going like that, then .+ works too >_>

@ConorO'Brien huh, I thought you were not allowed to have two quantifiers

lol someone tries to say "C and C derivative languages" shorter and it has devolved into golfing a regex

@Downgoat you can, but the regex is wrong I think

@ConorO'Brien no. that matches "javascript"

@ConorO'Brien I don't have a specific recommendation, but my criteria would be: imperative, good IDE comes with or is easily available, minimum boilerplate, and above all a good tutorial that lets them program interesting stuff quickly.

Lake or fence?

@DLosc hm, python fits the bill in that respect, I think

QBasic, my first language, matches most of those but fails on the last one and is hard to get these days.

If the regex is "C.*", then Chicken works

@ConorO'Brien Problem is 99% of people I know get stuck in Python hole and have then impossible time getting out if it

@wat fence

@Downgoat this is true. How is VSL going? >_>

@wat Fence, but i thought it was a lake until you edited the title

ninja

@Downgoat yep

@ConorO'Brien We have parser

hm ok

/r/LakeFrontProperty

My reccomendation is to try to install npm and teach cheddar

I actually made docs

it is really tasty language

If you hadn't made Cheddar, would you say that?

please help me find LGA1150 mini-ITX motherboard that supports 4690k and has m.2 slot

:P

and that costs below $150

@quartata The part about it being tasty? Yes

I have testimonials

best beginner programming language? [strawpoll]

FWIW I myself wouldn't recommend Pytek to a beginner

> ><>

brainf***

why isn't it on there?

@ConorO'Brien this is not good impartial poll, most people in this room love Python with a passion

@Downgoat It's not a final result >_>

> &gt;&lt;&gt;

haha

@Downgoat tbf i actually like the 2d language model; it's quite intuitive. With some dev, I think it could be a nice language model for beginners. A while ago I intended to make a readable 2d language, but then gave up and made reticular.

Voted java only, cuz I'm mainly unfamiliar with many of the others

@ConorO'Brien I would vote on this if strawpoll didn't have so many ads it crashes my tablet

@quartata oh, rip. I'll vote for you (since I'm not voting) if you'd like

@ConorO'Brien It seems like fun idea but it might be difficult, idk

@Downgoat yeah, that's why I gave up >_>

@ConorO'Brien The problem is parsing everything, instead of seeing gobbltygook

parsing isn't too hard.

I think the problem is that the memory model is hard to visualize for complex programs - especially with befunge's get/put operation

@ConorO'Brien Proposal: Readable 2D language named Pepperjack

@Downgoat why pepperjack?

idk, I think it tastes good

oh lol

we could also do Tin Can using same logic

what's with you and food languages >_>

@ConorO'Brien idk blame Alex :P

@MistahFiggins in the ideal "readable" 2d lang, get/put would be exclusively to memory, not the field itself.

True

Question: what's an alternative name for print function that is not puts (without newline)?

@Downgoat puts, out, disp, cat, echo, show

oh

I don't want Console.out to be mixed with IO.STDOUT. Also I might have a CoreUtils.cat which mimicks cat function :|

IMO show should be used as general purpose thing like IO.show(myImage) which opens up in image viewer

okay, how about echo

try output

or prn

you could also do visible, vis, viz, put, putc

Console.put

+1 for put

or Console.putstr

@ConorO'Brien did people just answer whatever programming language they learned first?

...maybe...

@DestructibleWatermelon no idea

@ConorO'Brien I love me some Python, but the tutorial question is where I have some doubts. Because I just glanced over the Python tutorial again, and it isn't for programming beginners. It's for people who are already familiar with the concept of programming and are just new to Python. Same for the Ruby tutorial I looked at. Finding a good absolute beginner tutorial is not easy.

@DLosc docs.cheddar.vihan.org

found one ;P

@DLosc I learned python in a couple days from byte of python

@DLosc hm. He's not an absolute beginner, but is pretty close. What about learn (Ruby|Python) the hard way?

@Downgoat I was just googling for that. ;)

Conor and Watermelon: I'll have to look into those.

a comment about the comment

also I need some advice on how to use subprocess.Popen on language agnostic challenges

@Downgoat Sorry, but that's not a programming beginner's tutorial. Already on page 2: what is syntax? What are variable names? Type? Object? Class? It's fine for people who are already programmers and are familiar with the terminology, but newbies will be intimidated and discouraged within 5 minutes.

> Strings in Cheddar are like most programming languages:

wow beginners guide

I don't think you can claim to have a programming beginners guide if on the first couple of pages you refer to other languages

@DLosc, from Learn Ruby the Hard way, intro:

> Learn Ruby The Hard Way is the same highly popular way for total beginners to finally learn how to code but for the Ruby programming language. Learn Ruby The Hard Way takes you from absolute zero to able to read and write basic Ruby to then understand other books on Ruby. No experience necessary to begin, and you can even try the book out for free to see if the method works for you. If you've always wanted to learn to code but have no idea where to begin, then this book is for you.

Online version here

@DLosc D: But I still desribe basic concepts in depth

@Downgoat Again, I'm not saying it's bad (though I did spot a typo :P), just that it's not at all suitable for programming beginners.

Overviews are for people who know programming but each section does describe in detail what each is

> Comments are sections of code which are ignored by the interpreter. You may use them to write notes describing your code or to aid people reading your code in understanding it

@Downgoat that does make sense. You may wish to add that to the docs tho

Also, who is promoting Java 3?! :P

@ConorO'Brien wat

@ConorO'Brien actually right now I'm more busy trying to figure out how I broke basic arithmetics:

cheddar> 1 + 1
dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: ___gmpf_init_set_d
  Referenced from: /Users/vihan/Documents/Code/Cheddar/bindings/number/build/Release/number.node
  Expected in: flat namespace

dyld: Symbol not found: ___gmpf_init_set_d
  Referenced from: /Users/vihan/Documents/Code/Cheddar/bindings/number/build/Release/number.node
  Expected in: flat namespace

@Downgoat o_O

I thought you had travis to help you with finding out what borked what

@ConorO'Brien I was going to vote for ruby and python

@Downgoat If you don't know what that means you shouldn't be using dlfcn

@quartata aight, voted. it's now pretty even. 3 at java, ruby, py; 2 at most eveything else

That's actually one of the nicest C errors I've ever seen. I'm guessing it's from Node instead

@quartata No I know what it means but I don't know why it is happening

it was working before and I changed something unrelated

Probably opening the wrong library

Is there a C++ binding for Stack Exchange chat?

no because all the websocket libraries for C++ suck

@DestructibleWatermelon Byte of Python looks pretty good. (My main complaint so far is that it doesn't seem to mention Idle, which is much nicer than using Windows cmd. OTOH, I get that they're trying to be OS-neutral.) Shame it's not higher on the Google results. How did you find it?

what do y'all think about writing (unit) tests?

What do you mean exactly?

feelings towards writing code to test your code

@DLosc it was a while ago actually

I don't recall

e.g., "I hate it, it's boring" or "It's awesome because I don't have to test manually"

I know what unit tests are.

@ConorO'Brien The former. :P

how to unit test?

I don't think "feelings" really come into play

@quartata sure they do?

You can't not do at least some integration testing in a professional environment

I'm talking in general, not just in prof. environment

So suck it up is the bottom line I guess

@DLosc I do too, until I catch a bug >_>

@ConorO'Brien In that case nobody cares since you won't get fired for breaking something on a hobby project

can Ruby load Glade files with gtk3 gem?

@quartata do you have tests for pytek?

@wat probably not

@ConorO'Brien Terrible ones but yes

@quartata you can apparently

do you enjoy writing those?

@quartata It appears I've never worked in a professional environment. :P (Granted, I've never held a full-time programming job or worked on a team of more than 4 people, so that's probably why.)

do you do freelance work?

@ConorO'Brien not especially

@quartata thanks, that's an answer I wanted to hear :P

that was in reply to your older message

yeah I figured

Question, what should the string representation of a dimension be?

I was thinking 100x100 for example but idk (this is for cheddar)

@Downgoat is it n-dimensional? does it always represent xyz?

That's mostly because our tester is very bad and I'm getting PTSD over the thought of having to port it to gcov

@quartata goodness. good luck :P

@ConorO'Brien I had an internship while in college. Now I work for my theology school's IT department doing mostly Linux server maintenance, database stuff, open-source code management, and occasional improvements to some in-house code my predecessors threw together. I am currently the only person in the department who even knows how to program.

So some of these conversations are probably good for me--if I ever end up programming in the corporate world, I won't be completely shellshocked. ;)

@DLosc wow, that's pretty cool! but also, kinda sad. You should show your colleagues this video, it's pretty persuasive. Unless you like being the only programmer, haha

No, I definitely miss having a boss who knows what I'm talking about. I'll give that video a watch.

@DLosc That's not to say that you won't run into code bases with no tests. Usually that's because of either laziness or the code base being too big and ancient

@quartata Oh, yes, I'm sure bad practices can be found anywhere. Our in-house code looks like someone tried different stuff until something mostly worked and then walked off the job the next day. One of my proudest (but also "wat") moments: discovering a huge nested loop that ran before loading every page and did... absolutely nothing. Deleted it and the pages loaded 2 seconds faster. :D

@DLosc me moments

I knew my phones warranty would be voided if I root it but I rooted it anyways since its warranty has already ended kek

Let's just put this here:

petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/…

(Americans only, unfortunately)

Wow

Yea, 2/3 of the way. when did this start?

If he does full tax return, I assume hes bankrupt.

@MistahFiggins Right after Trump was sworn in. When I signed a few hours ago it was only at 25000

It's the most popular by a huge margin. Cool.

@HelkaHomba Hi, I remember saying Hi 6 months before lol

Hi?

Hi

I remember everyone, but everyone forgot me lmao

@HelkaHomba Oh I'm dumb. It says when it was created right below the title :|

@HelkaHomba hey helka is back

I never left

Just got quiet :P

But I did

here's some news

kek

Matthew do you remember me? ;P (the answer is probably no, i joined like 2 months ago)

making a stack exchange chat client written in Ruby and GTK+ and I am going to release Linux and Windows versions. Will support multiple rooms, stars, etc.

@MistahFiggins No.

@MatthewRoh I remember ya

Ayy Conor

If you don't know me, heres one of my greatest successes: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/86375/gear-train-rotating

I think that was the first golf question of @betseg

should I have list of rooms be tabs or a list box?

or side tabs?

side tabs

Thou shalt not forget to commit.

I agree

night now

@ConorO'Brien so this?

Was this flagged as low quality by a bot, or someone else?

I think side tabs is ok

@wat I would personally prefer it on the right

@ConorO'Brien I really appreciate Learn Ruby the Hard Way's philosophy. Attention to detail is something that's so critical for programming, and super helpful for other things too. My main complaint so far is the same as for Byte of Python: beginners shouldn't be required to learn command-line before learning to program. Once you know how to program, command-line becomes much easier.

@MistahFiggins the right will be a panel with users and the starboard.

@wat I would prefer it customizable

Ok then, the left works. I don't usually spend time in more than 1 room

@MatthewRoh That will be harder to do

@MistahFiggins That's why I wanted to have them on the top

to have more screen real estate

Get the fundamentals done first, then add features like customizability

yeah just asking a fundamental design question

On top would be ok too, I'm not picky

Top might be better, because it takes a lot less space, as you said

relatively easy to change

Hah, i guess

now I'm thinking about how to do file uploads

> Use communicate() rather than .stdin.write, .stdout.read or .stderr.read to avoid deadlocks due to any of the other OS pipe buffers filling up and blocking the child process.

I need to use interactive io and thus communicate() is not going to work

how can I prevent deadlocks, or is this not a real concern?

If you're e.g. reading a child's stdout but ignoring its stderr, I guess you should open it with the stderr set to a null file.

@ConorO'Brien it's just width by height in a given unit

Be advised that I've never experienced this problem and may have no clue what they're warning about.

Or if you want to send multiple commands to its stdin, you should read the stdout after each command rather than sending them all at once.

Close!

Whats interesting is that he has a fair amount of rep on SO

Yis I think I have a good syntax thing for CMQ (if I ever get around to making it)

sumFibs(n) -> red(<(n) ->
                     {n in [0 1]: 1
                     {#(n - 1) + #(n - 2)
                  >[to n] (a b) -> a + b)

What do you guys think

The <> is a sequence, I'm trying to think of better characters to replace those

Ooh I think I have the characters

{}

☞☜?

Nah

We should ban mathematica from being used in codegolf since they have a builtin for EVERYTHING kek

《》

Those are the characters

wait what are they called anyway