The Nineteenth Byte

Katenkyo

14:00

-4

The Challenge Convert a phrase of two words to reverse style: candy bar -> bar le candy. Specifications There will be one word (only a-zA-Z0-9 + -), a space (), and then another word. Test cases: candy bar -> bar le candy code golf -> golf le code programming puzzles -> puzzles le progra...

24 answers, score: -4

wow...

Martin Büttner

@FricativeMelon well I didn't say I liked Python's forced indentation either ;)

Geobits

Ugh. This part: "When B does not appear in A, you should output A unchanged." is going to cause several more bytes :(

Katenkyo

@Geobits it costed me about 12 byte in lua ^^

Nathan Merrill

@MartinBüttner You have a point, so "style" is going to be taken carefully and slowly. I'm still not sure whether I'm going to do python-style indenting, but a good example I can give you is requiring spaces around operators

Geobits

I had 111 in java (still golfing though) before I saw that part.

Katenkyo

14:09

@NathanMerrill enforcing space around operators...?

Nathan Merrill

yes

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill see, I find a + b*c more readable than a + b * c ;)

Katenkyo

I would hate that D:

Geobits

Can't figure out the shortest/best way to clone/check/swap it though.

Nathan Merrill

@MartinBüttner I agree that people have personal preferences on what style looks best, but the issue is that code is never written for one person.

so, by enforcing a common code style, you make the entirety of code readable for everybody

aside from the impossible-to-enforce things, like variable naming

Katenkyo

14:12

In fact, the problem comes more from people who have no code-style at all, rather than having multiple code-style mixed in

the only thing that can be disturbing is about functions

Fricative Melon

@NathanMerrill You could use spaces around operators to decide operator precedence, like a + b * c does the multiplication first, where a + b * c does it second. That may not be particularly readable though.

Katenkyo

function name(int parameter){

}
vs
function name(int parameter)
{

}

Martin Büttner

@Geobits I feel like it's been ages since the last time you answered one of my code golfs. ;)

Nathan Merrill

@FricativeMelon style, by definition, has no impact on the runtime of the program

Katenkyo

@FricativeMelon it would be particulary messy D:

Martin Büttner

14:14

@FricativeMelon that sounds like a terrible idea which I will definitely work into some future esolang, thanks.

13

Katenkyo

I'm scared now...

Nathan Merrill

@Katenkyo yep, if I do decide on curly braces for functions, then I'll definitely do the first

Geobits

@MartinBüttner This one looked nice and simple to bang out in a minute or so. And it was, except that keeping a copy of A around to return really sucks. I'm sure there's a better way to do this.

Katenkyo

@NathanMerrill Most people use the first, from what I saw, but I prefer the second because I easily can see where it start and where it ends

Nathan Merrill

@Katenkyo either way, indentation will be required, so it should be easy to tell where it starts/ends

Katenkyo

14:17

@Geobits it may be the easiest way, I've oftep for it, why not just copy it, work on the copy, and at the end decide if you print the original or its copy?

Geobits

@Katenkyo I'm looking at that now. Modifying inplace looked so nice though :P

You

Hello

Katenkyo

@NathanMerrill Not really, I usually expect a one liner in the first case, because I don't see the first brace, so I need some time to understand it isn't

quartata

What kind of indentation? There are several diferent styles (tabs, 4 spaces,...) and they are all objectively right. If you enforce one you're gonna end up with a bunch of salty people

Katenkyo

@quartata hum, what's the difference between tabs and 4 spaces...?

You

14:19

@Katenkyo Absolutely nothing!!! :)

Except tabs may be different sizes in other editors.

quartata

Big difference. Tabs can be any number of spaces; there is no standard.

Fricative Melon

How do you put multiple lines in chat, since Enter doesn't work?

You

Spaces are constant

@FricativeMelon Shift + Enter

quartata

shift enter

Katenkyo

Well, true that I have some editor jusing tab=2 spaces, but by tab-spacing I usually mean 4 spaces

quartata

14:21

Anyways, I just think in general it's bad to enforce a code style that you think is right but others might not

Katenkyo

It's the most common setting

Nathan Merrill

@quartata tabs.

quartata

Yeah that's gonna get a lot of people mad at you

You

I prefer tabs and I don't care what other people think. :)

Nathan Merrill

sure. I know lots of people love spaces (and I currently use them on pretty much every project), but fundamentally, tabs are better

quartata

14:23

A lot of editors expand tabs too so they'll have to fiddle with their settings and stuff

Nathan Merrill

what do you mean by "expand tabs"

quartata

Auto converted to spaces.

Katenkyo

@quartata And some editor auto-convert spaces to tabs...

(it can be painful when working in 2-spaces D:)

Fricative Melon

@NathanMerrill How about this:
function name(par)
{
| function second(par2,par3)
| {
| | output par2
| | if par2>par3
| | {
| | | do stuff
| | }
| }
}

quartata

They won't be able to copy snippets from SO either since they expand tabs

Martin Büttner

14:25

@NathanMerrill are they now...

quartata

I think for indentation you should just enforce consistency

i.e no mixing tabs and spaces

Fricative Melon

@NathanMerrill I find that easier to read than having to count spaces in normal indentation

Nathan Merrill

" I designed it according to what I think languages should do, as opposed to what they currently do"

Geobits

@MartinBüttner Yes :P

You

@quartata I don't understand why people do that.

Katenkyo

14:26

@quartata mixing tabs and space is a pretty healthy thing to do in python !

You

Mixing tabs and spaces.

Geobits

For golfing maybe.

quartata

please no

Martin Büttner

@Geobits I could totally get behind the whole "everyone can use the tab width they like in their editor and it's still going be consistent" argument if it actually worked

You

Oh no! Not a tab-space war! For the sake of all, let's change the topic!

Geobits

14:27

@MartinBüttner The only thing you need to do to get that to actually work would be enforcing tabs AFAIK. The only times I see problems with it is when they're mixed.

Martin Büttner

this_function_takes_a_lot_of_arguments(foo,
                                       bar,
                                       baz,
                                       blah,
                                       yadda)

^ can't do that with tabs

quartata

No one is going to want to use a language that enforces tabs. It woud be a massive pain in the ass

You

@MartinBüttner Good point.

Martin Büttner

@quartata like Makefiles you mean? ;)

quartata

Also no one is going to use a language that enforces spaces

You have to be flexible on some things

You

14:30

Really, spaces and tabs are an opinion. Don't bother changing people's minds about it.

Nathan Merrill

@MartinBüttner oooh, that's a really good argument

Katenkyo

@MartinBüttner didn't even think of that

I want to golf down my answer before Geobits beats me, but cant' find anything to improve >_<

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill this is probably not even the best case I can make for it, because this is a fine alternative:

this_function_takes_a_lot_of_arguments(
    foo,
    bar,
    baz,
    blah,
    yadda
)

You

@MartinBüttner Actually, that looks nicer. :P

Nathan Merrill

@MartinBüttner only if you want the latter code style

I'm not sure what I want

Martin Büttner

14:33

but when I have a lengthy arithmetic or logical expression, I like to do this:

   foo
&& bar
&& baz
&& blah
&& yadda

(possibly with something preceding the foo)

and for this kind of alignment you're not as free to pick any position as with the function call

Nathan Merrill

no, the &&s are like commas

and should always go after

Katenkyo

@NathanMerrill actually, I prefer to put them at the start of a line

It indicates what's the purpose of this line

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill think of it like long addition... you'd put the + in front as well

Katenkyo

It's easier to see what's in the condition, and what isn't

Martin Büttner

because then you might have + or - and which one you have affects the next operand not the previous one

Nathan Merrill

14:35

mmm, true

Martin Büttner

also putting them at the front makes it less likely that you forget the operand when extending the list

Geobits

@Katenkyo I don't think there's any way I'm shaving 20 bytes from mine. You're safe from being beaten by Java today I think.

Even seeing mine beat Python 3 by so much makes me just assume that one isn't golfed enough.

Katenkyo

@Geobits Makes me wonder what he did too, python is often about the same length or shorter than lua

Geobits

Well, I probably could get rid of 20 or so using Java 8, but I have a thing against using lambdas to "disappear" the entire function declaration.

Katenkyo

Feel like it's cheating?

Geobits

14:41

Very much so. It's just offloading it to another part of the program imo.

Nathan Merrill

you people and your "X language should be hard to golf in" arguments

Geobits

Not "should be hard to golf in", but "should be a self-contained function". It's no different than requiring imports to be counted to me.

Katenkyo

@NathanMerrill there's languages for everyone

I personnaly golf in lua because of its simplicity: you have nothing at hands, do everything by yourself

Geobits

@Geobits Yeah, I've never lost to Java before. This is my greatest shame. — Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino 1 min ago

Katenkyo

It has the bad side of making golfs longer

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

14:47

@Geobits :(

Geobits

Oh, I thought you would want your greatest shame on display. Is that not normal? :P

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

Normally yes, but losing golf to JAVA!?

Solver

I am alive!

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

:P

Nathan Merrill

Is putting variable declaration outside of function cheating?

Geobits

14:50

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino I don't know enough Python golfing to help, but I bet you can lose 3 to pull ahead. Use that shame to fuel your search.

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

@Geobits Oh I'm well versed in using shame to motivate myself.

@NathanMerrill Yeah.

Katenkyo

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino Usually happened to me quite often, nothing to be shame :D

Geobits

@NathanMerrill As long as the declaration is counted in the byte count, I think it's usually allowed.

Katenkyo

@NathanMerrill it's commonly used in C golfing, you declare variables outside the main as they will default to int and have a value of 0

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

@Geobits I thought you couldn't because the function has to work multiple times. So they won't get reinitialized if they're outside the definition.

Geobits

14:52

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino I think it depends on the function. If it needs to be initialized each time, then that part should be in the function, yes.

Katenkyo

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino I've left you a comment about ternaries, maybe it could save you ^^

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

@Katenkyo Yeah, I just saw that. I'm so used to golfing down to (False, True)[bool] that I forgot about normal ternaries. :P

Katenkyo

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino ^^

Nathan Merrill

bah, I was going to suggest putting your a=0,b=0 outside, but despite the fact that it doesn't work with multiple runthroughs, it doesn't improve the byte count

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

Boo yah, 127!

Katenkyo

14:55

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino Don't golf it down anymore! Else, you'll beat me D:

Morgan 'Venti' Thrappuccino

@Katenkyo I suppose that's the least I can do in thanks. ;)

Geobits

@MartinBüttner Well you can't say that any more (for a while at least) :P

@Morgan'Venti'Thrappuccino Well damn.

Nice job.

Sp3000

@Katenkyo About that...

Solver

@Optimizer I will speak to Martin about it.

Katenkyo

@Sp3000 è_é

Solver

14:57

@MartinBüttner Are you there? I need mod attention on something.

Martin Büttner

hm?

Nathan Merrill

hmmm, are default values a good idea?

Martin Büttner

for function arguments?

Solver

I realised a few days ago that i am underage @MartinBüttner

Martin Büttner

why not?

Nathan Merrill

14:58

aka, if a class declares an integer with no value, is it good design that it automatically becomes 0?

Solver

@MartinBüttner what do i do?

Rainbolt

Oh man. I just spent way too long trying to figure out what my issue was with this code. Who can spot the error?

    public class MyObject
    {
        public string Foo { get; }

        public MyObject(string foo)
        {
            Foo = Foo;
        }
    }

Martin Büttner

@NathanMerrill Depending on scoping rules you'll sometimes want to declare a variable in a different place from where it's used for the first time, and if you then require people to give it a meaningless dummy value I don't think that's a good idea.

Katenkyo

@Rainbolt the caps in Foo=Foo;

Rainbolt

Haha yup.

Katenkyo

15:01

should be Foo=foo; :D

Rainbolt

Foo was just always null and I could not figure out why

Solver

@Rainbolt Btw i am not gone yet

trichoplax

The more obvious the mistake, the longer it takes to spot :)

2

Nathan Merrill

@Rainbolt do you use an IDE?

Solver

@trichoplax so true

Nathan Merrill

15:02

I know at least Jetbrains IDEs will detect that

Geobits

That's because it comes with Foo fighters.

Katenkyo

I once lost 2 hours looking for error, looks like I typed test/javascript instead of text/javascript

Solver

@NathanMerrill everyone does.

Rainbolt

Yes, but my IDE doesn't tell me that foo is unused. If I had ReSharper turned on, then it would have, but our solution is so large that ReSharper crashes Visual Studio every ten minutes.

There are parts of ReSharper I could turn off, but I haven't bothered to tinker with it

Geobits

Damn, that sucks.

Solver

15:03

@MartinBüttner So what do i do about my age?

trichoplax

I've wasted hours with < instead of <=

Geobits

@Solver If you wait a few years, it will sort itself out.

Katenkyo

@Rainbolt That's why you shouldn't rely too much on your DIE :D

Solver

@Geobits lol

Geobits

Also, exactly what is the problem with age? I set up an account for my nine year old. I looked at the rules and meta posts, and it seems like that if it's set up by the parent and monitored, there isn't an issue.

Nobody's bothered telling me otherwise, so...

Katenkyo

15:05

@trichoplax using < and <= is now a habit for me, I do it the right way, but don't even know I chose one over the other

Martin Büttner

@Solver Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do. Afaik what usually happens is that SE staff will remove the account when they get around to it, and then you're free to sign up again once you turn 13.

Solver

@Geobits yes but i set up my own account myself

Geobits

@Solver Why in the world would you say that publicly? ;)

Katenkyo

@Solver first rule of the internet: nobody knows who you are unless you tell them

trichoplax

63

Q: How do I use Stack Exchange if I'm under 13 years old?

I was just reading the Terms of Service, and noticed something: Subscriber certifies to Stack Overflow that if Subscriber is an individual (i.e., not a corporate entity), Subscriber is at least 13 years of age. No one under the age of 13 may provide any personal information to or on...

support faq legal terms-of-service age

quartata

15:07

on the internet no one knows you're a dog

trichoplax

@Geobits This seems to confirm that

Nathan Merrill

@Geobits I think you misread the post. Stack exchange needs to allow parent/guardian permission

which they currently don't

Geobits

Yea, that's the one I finally found when researching.

> We'd encourage you to work with your parent or legal guardian, who can set up an account and use it with you, or establish other appropriate ways to use the site as a family.

I have one account for me, and one account for us.

Katenkyo

> Get Stack Overflow to accept parental/guardian permission for individual accounts,

Nathan Merrill

that works, as long as none of the information isn't his (or hers)

FryAmTheEggman

15:09

@MartinBüttner Do you think I should answer that string question or ask another one on meta about that issue specifically?

Geobits

Oh right, none of the personal info is his. I don't want random people emailing him anyway.

Katenkyo

You could also ask your parents/guardians to explictly tells to SE that they agree with and monitor your use

Martin Büttner

@FryAmTheEggman I think you could just answer that.

Katenkyo

But couldn't say how it'll turn out as you setted up the account by yourself

Easterly Irk

@QPaysTaxes the guy who runs this emailed me about another project I am doing, and he said he likes Desert Survival.

Katenkyo

15:11

Also, I have to go, Have a nice evening guys!

Geobits

@EasterlyIrk If nethack people like it, you should feel bad :P

That's like saying the Spice Girls really like your new album.

Easterly Irk

._.

I like nethack...

Geobits

Oh. Then you should feel bad for that, then. Not the game thing.

Nathan Merrill

don't most commercial servers have backups? Or is that something people say they should do, but in practice it's rare?

Rainbolt

Anyone else in here playing Black Desert?

Geobits

15:14

Haven't played a Korean MMO in a looooong time.

quartata

@Solver Chat/mother meta is really really not the place to ask this at any rate

Geobits

@NathanMerrill I think most do. Now whether they do backups often enough, have an offsite location, etc, is up in the air.

quartata

Contact SE or something

Nathan Merrill

@Geobits then I'm correct in assuming that ransomware is really only effective against servers that don't backup or do it rarely?

quartata

@EasterlyIrk Oh yeah I never fixed that

I should get on that

Nathan Merrill

15:16

which seems like a difficult thing to test, so they're basically hoping there aren't backups

Geobits

I guess it depends on the backups, yea. It seems like a good method: target a bunch of places, strike gold on one or two.

Solver

Hello, I was just going back from the bus stop to home

Geobits

Much like most spammer operations.

quartata

I never realized that VLQ/NAA flags show up in the little people review queue

Geobits

@Solver Details of your daily travel noted. Thank you for providing this information.

zyabin101

15:19

@quartata Little people?

quartata

@zyabin101 non-diamond people

Solver

@Geobits I can't pretend that I am someone else, no matter how hard I try.

Geobits

@Solver My point was rather that this is the kind of reason that COPPA and laws like it are implemented in the first place. In the interests of "think of the children" mindset that creates these laws, you probably don't need to add your daily schedule to the list of other personal info given here.

Granted, I intended it mostly as a joke. Mostly.

Solver

@Geobits Okay. Will note in the future.

@Geobits I think I will just stay online and not bring too much attention to this :P

Geobits

That's probably the best course of action ;)

Although applied retroactively would be even better.

Solver

15:25

@Geobits I was referring to:

19 mins ago, by Geobits

@Solver Why in the world would you say that publicly? ;)

Geobits

I was referring to all of it. If you just drop the whole thing, it's possible that nothing will happen. Keep mentioning it, and somebody will eventually "fix" the problem.

Solver

okay, everything is normal now. :P

Geobits

A good (if of neutral morality) life lesson: If you act like you belong somewhere, most people will let you get away with a lot.

Solver

@Geobits Thank you. My spirit has matured.

now lets doe talking about node.js

Geobits

:D

But... node.js? Surely there's a better topic to pivot to?

Solver

15:30

okay, how bad is java?

wait - the end has come:

Easterly Irk

wait did that happen?

Solver

@EasterlyIrk yes. :(

Geobits

Apparently. No profile now on PPCG at least.

Solver

no profile anywhere.

Easterly Irk

well bai @Solver

how old are you?

Solver

15:34

why i am still here?

Easterly Irk

idk

DON"T LEAVE

Geobits

Blame (or praise) caching

Easterly Irk

KEEP THIS PAGE OPEN FOREVER

Solver

@EasterlyIrk less than 13, older than 9

Easterly Irk

okai

Solver

15:34

@EasterlyIrk i was gonna say that.

maybe i will code out a challange to show my age :)

Easterly Irk

good

Solver

you do realise that was sent one hour ago

the mail

Geobits

It's like talking to a ghost...

Farewell, and rest in peace.

Easterly Irk

Goodbye @Solver!

Come back when you are 13, and we will blow your mind with golfing.

Solver

wait, when i re login i am still here

how zis this

Easterly Irk

15:37

idk

check all your accounts

Solver

or i will take another form

Easterly Irk

ohey your chat profile didn't get nuked

Solver

if the account is gone forever

@EasterlyIrk woah, cool

so i can still chat!

Nathan Merrill

Ok, I think I'm going to allow default code values. If you declare a variable of a certain type, but you don't assign it, the default will be used.

if the class doesn't have a default, then a compile error is thrown

Solver

@EasterlyIrk

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/38342/…

please say something there.

everyone pleez do

Lembik

16:01

just saw this which looks interesting... stackoverflow.com/questions/36603712/…

an algorithms people know an answer?

Easterly Irk

0/10 needs moar latex

zyabin101

@Lembik You are Eleanora?

Lembik

no!

:)

Nathan Merrill

@Lembik yes, there is. start at the end, select the largest, and work backwards, I believe

Easterly Irk

@Lembik the identicons are identical!

Lembik

16:04

@EasterlyIrk I could explain it.. it's a bug in SO

but I have explained it too much :)

basically, I share a computer and it seems that sometimes SO remembers me as one of the other users

which is annoying

Easterly Irk

#Fail every heard of network accounts?

eleanora

915 7 29

python math numpy performance algorithm scipy c

Lembik

so there is someone called eleanora who also uses this computer

Easterly Irk

oh

really?

Lembik

right

but that's not really the interesting topic :)

Easterly Irk

are you sure?

^_^

Lembik

16:05

I am more interested in the algorithmic problem

@NathanMerrill that would work if the rows were sorted, right?

Nathan Merrill

er, yes. I guess I assumed they were

Lembik

I don't think that is part of the question

there is a longest increasing subsequence algorithm

it looks a little like that

but not quite

stackoverflow.com/questions/4487438/… looks relevant

hmm

dynamic programming?

zyabin101

@El'endiaStarman o/

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

ohai @El'endiaStarman

El'endia Starman

hallo

Solver

16:20

@QPaysTaxes Hiya @QPaysTaxes!

My account was nuked :(

But my chat account is still alive. :D

and that's kinda all that matters to me.

FryAmTheEggman

Uh, anyone know what to do when your answer is "wrongly" accepted? codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/42534/31625

quartata

yo dawg we heard you liked unions inside structures

struct value {
  union {
    double doubleValue;
    char* stringValue;
    double* doubleListValue;
    char** stringListValue;
  } value;
  enum { DOUBLE, STRING, DOUBLELIST, STRINGLIST } type;
};

I love C

FryAmTheEggman

Surely MATLAB isn't an esoteric language :P

El'endia Starman

Yeah, Matlab isn't esoteric. MATL is.

FryAmTheEggman

Idk mine is like 90% builtin too...

There's also a J answer

quartata

16:28

@QPaysTaxes By the way you should pop into the desert survival room

yes

Nathan Merrill

is there a term for "hard drive failing to write a bit"

not necessarily the same bit, just the rate for how frequently a write fails

hmmm, maybe?

Easterly Irk

@QPaysTaxes I think so.

But he liked it. ^_^

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

hai @EasterlyIrk

Easterly Irk

Oh, and I added vim/nethack movement keys and a drop command when you are overweight.

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ HAI

@QPaysTaxes also, he mentioned runnning it on a smartwatch?

Quote:

> I liked that Desert Survival game you've been contributing to. I'm a huge fan of minimalistic roguelikes. It looks small enough to play on a smartwatch, which is interesting.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

16:53

:o

Easterly Irk

ikr

@VTCAKAVSMoACE explain your name again?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

"Vote to close a known answer (VTC'S) so my oranges are crazy exceptional"

zyabin101

"Vintage Trench Coat, also known as VSMoACE" (don't know the last seven)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

JOLF IS NOW FUNCTIONAL ON IE!

zyabin101

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ WAT? IE?

I HAVE AN OLD IE!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

16:59

I use IE at school :P

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