The Nineteenth Byte

Doorknob

8:00 PM

[sarcasm!] [obviously!] last-statement

quartata

Ohh

El'endia Starman

You could learn Pirofi instead...

Doorknob

click consonants are fantastic and amazing

El'endia Starman

Aww, I was hoping to plug my own conlang.‌.. :P

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman speaking of which, not sure if you saw this, but do you think that'd be an interesting premise for a conlang? :D

El'endia Starman

8:04 PM

@Doorknob Yeah, I saw it. I took a look and I was like "Well, these people have answered the question far more than I ever could.", so I closed the tab. :P

Looks like you still get a lot of phonemes.

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman haha

@El'endiaStarman Yeah, surprisingly many actually.

PhiNotPi

@El'endiaStarman Wow, is that your face? I'll never look at your avatar the same way again.

El'endia Starman

@PhiNotPi Lol. :P

quartata

@Doorknob The only replacement to make a cmene out of Alex would be x -> ks right

la aleks

Doorknob

correct

El'endia Starman

8:07 PM

Is a cmene like a proper name?

Doorknob

you would be {la .kuartatas.}

El'endia Starman

Or loanword?

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman a cmene is any name, yes

loanwords are fu'ivla

El'endia Starman

ooh, okay

Doorknob

        vars: [None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None, None]

Rust plz

there's apparently no better way to do this

quartata

8:08 PM

OK, so I figured out how to say the best thing ever

.i la .aleks. toldra

Doorknob

Feb 13 at 4:56, by Doorknob

@AlexA. .i do to'e drani

quartata

I win lojban

Doorknob

beat you to it :P

El'endia Starman

Is that "Alex is wrong"? :P

quartata

@El'endiaStarman maybe

@Doorknob dammit

Anonymous

8:09 PM

I'm surprised this hasn't been cracked yet:

Anonymous

1

A: Find the program that prints this integer sequence (Cops' thread)

MATL, 10 bytes 2*##n##qn- Starts at 1, # are hidden characters. Sample input/output: a(3)=1 a(8)=2

Doorknob

@quartata you need .s surrounding aleks as per dotside

quartata

@Doorknob Joke, right?

Doorknob

no

quartata

ok

That seems weird.

Doorknob

8:10 PM

it's BPFK-approved, one of the few actual changes to Lojban since CLL

PhiNotPi

What if dotside is wrong?

Doorknob

no, just {.i la .aleks. toldra}

@PhiNotPi la .datsaid. xamgu

quartata

@Doorknob I didn't know what the style would be per se

Can you edit it lol

Doorknob

ok :P

Anonymous

mod abuse pi

quartata

8:12 PM

So, how do you make something more advanced than a yes-no question? Like "what color is this?" or something

Is there another thing you add onto xu?

Anonymous

I'm colorblind, so that's a yes-or-no question

Doorknob

@quartata ti skari ma

ma is a sumti that means "fill-in-the-blank"

mo is the bridi equivalent

quartata

@Doorknob Interesting.

(wrong reply oops)

Doorknob

so {do mo} is a common greeting of sorts, roughly "hey what's up, what are you doing"

Anonymous

do mo arigato

quartata

8:14 PM

hehe

Ooh, there's a bunch of them.

la'u ma for how many eh

Doorknob

a bunch of what?

oh

that's just because la'u is the modal for klani

Anonymous

My cat is curled up on a mound of blankets. She has claimed Mount Soft as her lair.

Doorknob

so it literally translates to "with quantity [what?]"

there's an experimental one for number question iirc

{xo}

quartata

OK, I'm going to try to recreate a classic joke

xu jbopli ninga'igau lo bombila la'u ma

El'endia Starman

Just guessing, but "Why did the chicken cross the road?"?

quartata

8:18 PM

Nope

How many Lojbanists does it take to change a lightbulb

Doorknob

sorry but that's not anywhere near what that means :P

quartata

D'awh.

What does it say? :P

Doorknob

"true/false? something lojbanistically-resets a lightbulb of quantity what?"

I'm not really uh sure how to parse that

I'll try translating it

quartata

oh dear

Doorknob

hmm

su'o xo lo jbopre cu kakne lo nu basti gasnu lo gusni dirce

quartata

8:24 PM

OK, I should try something simpler

Doorknob

at-least [what-number?] the lojban-people [cu] are-able-to the event-of replace–make the light emitter

quartata

OK I couldn't have screwed this one up

xu la jipci kruca la dargu mu'i ma

Doorknob

true-false? Chicken Cross! Road! [ungrammatical modal]

haha

quartata

:(

Doorknob

{la jipci kruca} is a sumti meaning "the one who goes by the name of Chickencross"

lol

quartata

8:28 PM

What on earth

Doorknob

la != lo

quartata

You wouldn't use lo here surely

Doorknob

la is strictly for names. You would use lo

quartata

That's an indefinite article though right

Doorknob

Okay well you would probably use le

I still haven't fully digested {xorlo} yet

quartata

8:29 PM

@Doorknob Ahh that's the one I was looking for

Doorknob

lo acts as any of the/a/some in Lojban

it can be both definite and indefinite

anyway

ma mukti lo nu lo jipci cu cruca lo dargu

quartata

What's nu?

I get the rest

Doorknob

lo nu broda = the event of broda

what is-a-motive-for the event-of the chicken [cu] crosses the road

El'endia Starman

What's this [cu]?

Doorknob

it terminates the nu abstractor

El'endia Starman

8:32 PM

It seems like something you just need in Lojban but not in English.

Doorknob

right

El'endia Starman

Oh, so it's something like a )?

Doorknob

the syntax of any lojban sentence (bridi) is [sumti...] [cu] [brivla] [sumti...] [vau]

the cu and vau are what are known as elidable terminators

that is, {mi citka lo plise} (I eat the apple) means the same as {mi cu citka lo plise ku vau}

El'endia Starman

So you don't need to say them when it's unambiguous otherwise.

Doorknob

yes

for example, quartata messed up with accidental tanru-ing above

FryAmTheEggman

8:34 PM

So it's like ) in Pyth :P

Doorknob

"lo jipci cruca" does not mean "the chicken crosses"

it means "the chicken-type-of-crosser"

@FryAmTheEggman ... kind of :P

quartata

@Doorknob OK, but why does that have to be explicit? I don't think I'm going to ever say the chicken type of crosser in a sentence

Doorknob

right, but how do you differentiate between {lo jipci cruca} (the chicken crosser) and {lo plise tricu} (the apple tree)

otherwise {lo plise tricu} would mean "the apple is a tree"

quartata

A preposition?

Like of.

Doorknob

so you mean "the apple tree" should be {lo plise [some cmavo] tricu}?

quartata

8:37 PM

Yeah.

The tree of apple.

Doorknob

Lojban relies heavily on tanruing. tanru by default makes much more sense, especially considering it's not uncommon to have chains of 4-6 gismu making up a single tanru

@quartata {lo tricu co plise}

El'endia Starman

What's a tanru? Is it much like hyphenating in English?

quartata

Compound verb.

Doorknob

sort of kind of. It's the concept of a metaphor in English, but much more extensive.

El'endia Starman

And gismu is a noun or verb?

Doorknob

8:44 PM

mi lojbo prenu -> I am a Lojban type-of person -> I am a Lojbanist.

quartata

A gismu is a verb. There isn't really a concept of nouns, everything is just a verb

at least as I understand it

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

wtf

El'endia Starman

Interesting. It seems almost like it's the functional programming paradigm applied to natural language.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

Doorknob

do rarna certu -> you are an "instinct type-of expert -> You have good instincts.

quartata

8:46 PM

It reminds me of Prolog in more ways than I expected it to

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Where "nouns" are nulladic verbs, I guess.

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman a gismu is one of 1200 or so root words of the language

quartata

It also hurts my head just as much as Prolog

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ No, actually.

Something can be used as both a verb (maybe like x is an apple) and a noun

Doorknob

a "verb" (or as we call them in Lojbanistan, selbri) can be a gismu, tanru, lujvo, fu'ivla, ...

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@quartata In a functional language. I know nothing about Lojban

quartata

8:47 PM

Oh.

Doorknob

right. plise means "x1 is an apple of species x2," so lo plise means literally "the thing that satisfies FOO in the statement FOO is an apple [of species zo'e]"

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Other than this is probably valid Lojban: pernbo ulomji

it's not

Nope.

It looks like it >_<

8:48 PM

Gismus are 5 letters

Doorknob

words that start with vowels must be preceded with mandatory pauses, for one

@quartata lujvo can be any length

El'endia Starman

@quartata I noticed that! :D

quartata

@Doorknob Right.

Doorknob

all gismu are either CCVCV or CVCCV

quartata

But it wouldn't really be a valid sentence without a gismu somewhere would it?

Doorknob

8:48 PM

sure it would

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Doorknob Oh, that explains everything. I know perfect Lojban now.

FryAmTheEggman

24

Q: ¿xu ti te gismytermorna? (Is it a valid gismu?)

(Literally: "Does this follow/realize the gismu-form?") Premise The language Lojban is a constructed language, meaning in part that all of its words have been created rather than allowed to develop naturally. The semantic base of Lojban are its gismu, or root words, which were synthesized by co...

Doorknob

@quartata mi jbopre: I am a Lojbanist

quartata

@Doorknob Oh. All right

Doorknob

in fact, {mi} is a valid utterance

as a response to, for example, {ma gasnu} "who did that"

quartata

8:50 PM

Yes.

El'endia Starman

In a general way, yes.

Doorknob

not necessarily

it can also mean "I," "we," and "us"

Rainbolt

sigh Customer issues. Imagine that you built a beautiful house. Then, you built a beautiful brick box around your beautiful house so that nobody could ever see it. The house has a broken window. Is that a bug?

El'endia Starman

I think of it as pointing to oneself in sign language.

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes it's defined as "the first-person pronoun"

Rainbolt

8:51 PM

@QPaysTaxes Even though nobody can see the house, you still call it a bug?

El'endia Starman

@Rainbolt I'm really not sure. Hmm...but if a customer is complaining to you about it, maybe there's a brick missing in the brick box?

PhiNotPi

Apparently there's challenges named Xorting and XOROR. I should make one called Xorcery (a pun on "Sorcery")

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Well, if the brick box covers the window, it should be fine.

@PhiNotPi The second one is mine :D

Rainbolt

@El'endiaStarman There actually is a brick missing in the box. They wrote a bug about that. Then they wrote a bug about the broken window.

Each bug counts against us, so I'm pushing for the second bug to be rejected because they technically shouldn't be able to see the broken window.

El'endia Starman

@Rainbolt Hahaha, wow. Well, if you fix the window, then the next person to poke a hole in the brick box won't see the broken window...

Rainbolt

8:54 PM

Maybe I want to fix the bug but not have it count against us.

We have two kinds of bugs: the ones we accept as a fault from the outside world, and the ones we write ourselves and fix.

The former are bad. The latter are good.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Metaphors are like similes, like this.

PhiNotPi

Similes are metaphors, like this.

Rainbolt

We had an error page pop up inside of an iframe. The error page has it's own navigation menu and everything, which is a problem because the user can then start navigating the page inside of the page.

So they wrote a bug about the error happening, then wrote a bug about the page-ception

My argument is that the page-ception can't happen if the error doesn't happen

The error is definitely a bug

The page-ception is not

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes :3

Rainbolt

@QPaysTaxes The user can't see this page.. unless they run through an invalid use case

El'endia Starman

8:58 PM

I think that in this case, I'd lean towards counting the page-ception as a bug too. My reasoning is that you don't know about any other holes in the brick box. You have no sure guarantee that the broken window isn't visible to any/everyone else.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^^

El'endia Starman

It could possibly also be a security issue, I dunno, and in such a case, you should definitely count the broken window as a bug because it's a hole in a layer of defense.

Rainbolt

Let's exaggerate the logic here: if the product fails to install, should I write a bug about not being able to use the search feature on the Foo page?

I can't guarantee that the product will install all the time

Why is exaggerate so hard to spell

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^idk

Rainbolt

@QPaysTaxes Of course. I meant in addition to that bug, should I also write a bug about the other issue.

El'endia Starman

9:02 PM

I think that's not quite the same and I'm trying to pin down why. I think it might be because a failure to install will prevent the user from doing anything. It's like the house and brick box were never built.

Rainbolt

So the use case becomes
1. I install the program.
2. Assuming step 1 succeeded, then I should be able to navigate to the Foo page.

Correct?

Anonymous

Seems right to me

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Four days left to crack this

Rainbolt

Now let's apply the same logic to the other use case.
1. I go to the Foo page.
2. Assuming step 1 succeeded, then I should not encounter page-ception.

But step 1 didn't succeed. Instead an error occurred. Therefore there's only one bug.

Anonymous

A bug caused by the presence of another bug shouldn't be counted, because you're looking at root cause

El'endia Starman

9:04 PM

Mightn't there also be other errors that trigger page-ception?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^ s/n/'n/

Rainbolt

Yes, which is why I do not consider the root cause to be the same for each bug

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes why not?

Doorknob

might n[o]t

Anonymous

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I wanna crack it so that my Seriously answer is the frontrunner

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

9:06 PM

@Doorknob Sorry, I'm an idiot.

@Mego What about the Pyke answer?

Anonymous

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I expect it to be cracked soon

Anonymous

5-char answers are easy enough to brute force :P

Doorknob

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Im'*

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Doorknob Of course :{P

Rainbolt

@QPaysTaxes I think that the error is unexpected, and the page-ception that follows is neither expected nor unexpected.

There's no requirement for how to behave after an error occurs, because the requirement is that the error should not occur.

El'endia Starman

9:07 PM

"undefined behavior", in essence. Hmm...

Anonymous

Once an invalid operation has occurred, the subsequent operations (assuming they could only happen as a result of the initial invalid operations) aren't bugs, they're side effects

Anonymous

It's exactly UB :P

Anonymous

Simpler way of looking at it: if one fix gets rid of both of them, it's one bug

El'endia Starman

And then another bug is found that triggers the old bug...

Anonymous

@QPaysTaxes Commit logs are magical

Anonymous

9:09 PM

But once you start investigating and find that it's one code errors that causes both "bugs", it's clear that it's a single bug

Anonymous

Just multiple manifestations

El'endia Starman

@Rainbolt, is what you're hoping to do is reject the second bug and then redo the error report internally? You wouldn't have known about the second bug if it weren't for the user...

PhiNotPi

I feel like I'm really sick, but have 4 exams over the next 6 days.... ;-;

Rainbolt

@El'endiaStarman Yes, that is my goal - to reduce the number of customer found bugs by one, and then fix the second bug anyway even though nobody will ever be able to validate the fix.

I mean, assuming the first bug is fixed first, it will be impossible for even our own quality assurance guys to validate the second issue.

PhiNotPi

@Rainbolt How big a deal is a bug if you're fighting this hard for 1 bug vs 2?

Doorknob

9:13 PM

vars: [Some(Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap())),

I just realized how insanely verbose it is to get the number zero

epicTCK

in lojban, lo plise means the apple, but what whould the verb form mean? (plise)

Doorknob

@epicTCK x1 is an apple of species x2

Anonymous

@epicTCK jump

epicTCK

@Doorknob your explaniation does not make sense.......

so jump fall or inspire

Anonymous

Portal 2 - Apple Scene

►

El'endia Starman

9:15 PM

@Doorknob ...do you have to get the number zero that way?! o.O

Doorknob

yes >_>

PhiNotPi

@epicTCK Doorknob is correct.

Rainbolt

@PhiNotPi Normally not a big deal, but right now it's a big deal

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes no, this is just a partial snippet

El'endia Starman

@Mego Ah I never saw this. :D

Doorknob

9:16 PM

@epicTCK {ti plise} -> this is an apple

why does it... exist?

epicTCK

@Doorknob I don't understand what you mean by x1 and x2

Doorknob

the sumti to the selbri

the "arguments" to the "function"

@QPaysTaxes because I need a Option(Value::Num)

because that's how variables are stored?

I might just get rid of the Option and have everything start out as 0

Anonymous

What do people think about this?

Anonymous

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Identify the Conic Section code-golf math Given 5 distinct points on a two-dimensional plane, determine the type of conic section formed by the points. The output shall be one of circle, hyperbola, ellipse, or parabola. Rules The points will be in general linear position, meaning that no thre...

Doorknob

            vars: [Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),

this isn't much better

El'endia Starman

9:23 PM

...what language is that?!

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman Rust

epicTCK

meh. lojban = lo kalci

Doorknob

@QPaysTaxes can't do that

@epicTCK that's false. {kalci} is literal; you can't use it figuratively like that.

@QPaysTaxes no

there's a good reason for this, and I would explain it, but I don't feel like typing it all out right now

yes and no

I could have done [Value::Num(...); 26]

if Value implemented Copy

but it doesn't

            // I'm sorry
            vars: [Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),
                   Value::Num(Rational::from_float(0.0).unwrap()),

okay, this is better

<_< >_> yes

El'endia Starman

Should extend it to // I'm sorry, Rust is stupid sometimes. :P

Doorknob

> \\

New Main Posts

9:37 PM

0

Q: Stable Game of Life

Challenge: Given a matrix of 0s and 1s, output the number of steps it takes for Conway's game of life to reach a stable state, or -1 if it never reaches one. A stable state is a state in which no cells are turned on or off each step. The game must run in the given matrix, with the top and bot...

code-golf game-of-life matrix

poi830

having some trouble with that formatting lol

chat.stackexchange.com/messages/28993364/history

Doorknob

shhhhh

El'endia Starman

Haha, backslashes are like the thing that you'd expect to be able to put in inline code formatting, but shouldn't.

Anonymous

I'm gonna toss conic sections onto main; any objections?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Mego I do. You can't toss such a question with wings :P

Anonymous

9:46 PM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Sure I can. I just did.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

:O

Anonymous

I'm pretty sure this challenge is essentially asking "solve the halting problem". — Mego 1 min ago

poi830

its in a finite matrix though

El'endia Starman

Yeah, the question was edited to specify a 15x15 limit.

New Main Posts

0

Q: Identify the Conic Section

Given 5 distinct points on a two-dimensional plane, determine the type of conic section formed by the points. The output shall be one of circle, hyperbola, ellipse, or parabola. Rules The points will be in general linear position, meaning that no three points are collinear, and thus the conic ...

code-golf math

Anonymous

9:47 PM

Even still, it's either going to be "solve the halting problem" or "hardcode the values"

Doorknob

the first Babble program ever written and successfully run:

ONEPUT

it outputs 1 to stdout

@QPaysTaxes I will put it on Github when it is in a reasonable stable state

Anonymous

Put it on github now so that you have VCS and can nerd-snipe unwitting people into helping

poi830

matrix of 0s and 1s

what other formats would people use?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

try {
	res = (new Function(a.prec+a.comp))();
	if(typeof res==="undefined") throw new Error("lazy programming");
} catch(e){
	res = (new Function(a.prec+"return "+a.comp))()
}

Zach Gates

O(n) is better than O(log n), right?

poi830

9:56 PM

oh ok

Maltysen

@ZachGates no

Zach Gates

Complexity wise?

Maltysen

@ZachGates you might be thinking of O(nlogn)

but log n is smaller than n

Zach Gates

Oh ok

Maltysen

@ZachGates bigocheatsheet.com

trichoplax

9:59 PM

@Mego I assume there is a finite value such that if a 15 by 15 matrix hasn't stabilised in that time it never will. I expect that finite value is huge though. Not sure how to calculate it but if you can put an upper bound on it then you can write a program that (technically) will work

Maltysen

@ZachGates look at the graph at the bottom

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