The Nineteenth Byte

Doorknob

4:00 AM

Ruby, Rust, some others

Anonymous

"most languages"

Alex A.

OIC

Nathan Merrill

@Calvin'sHobbies I was joking, but its probably a good idea to clear it up on the transcript :)

Anonymous

i.e. the languages only he uses :P

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob My issue with this is that it's not immediately clear which is which when learning a new language.

Anonymous

4:00 AM

@El'endiaStarman And a..b and a...b are somehow clearer?

DJ McGoathem

Words can barely describe how excited I was today when I opened up SE and saw that featured meta post.

Nathan Merrill

I definitely prefer [1..5) to 1...5

Alex A.

^

Doorknob

... maybe not "most" :P

some, at any rate

@DJMcGoathem :D

El'endia Starman

Given the feedback in here, I think I'll go with [1..5] and [1..5) syntax.

Next question: how to specify the step?

Alex A.

4:01 AM

\o/

El'endia Starman

[1..5:2]?

Doorknob

Oh, CoffeeScript does .. and ... too

Anonymous

Consider: most new learners will have a background in C, Java, JS, and/or Python. Neither syntax is intuitive based on those langs. They will almost certainly have a background in math also, so [a..b] would be more intuitive.

DJ McGoathem

@El'endiaStarman Are you making a golf language?

Doorknob

@Doorknob That makes three :P

Anonymous

4:02 AM

Comments before I post this to main?

Anonymous

3

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

The Holier Numbers As we learned from The Holy Numbers, there are 5 holy digits (0, 4, 6, 8, 9), and positive integers consisting solely of those digits are holy. Additionally, the holiness of a number is the sum of the holes in the number (+2 for every 0 or 8, and +1 otherwise). Now, there is ...

Doorknob

@DJMcGoathem It's not a golfing language

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman [start..step..end)

Doorknob

a non-esolang

El'endia Starman

@DJMcGoathem Pytek will not be a golfing language, but Ptk/Pyk will be a golfy version of Pytek.

Anonymous

4:03 AM

@El'endiaStarman I would recommend Ptk over Pyk, since we already have Pyke

El'endia Starman

Good point.

Doorknob

but... how do you pronounce "Ptk"

Anonymous

@Doorknob pie-tech

DJ McGoathem

"pit-kuh"

Maltysen

"p-tek"?

Nathan Merrill

4:04 AM

@El'endiaStarman I'm personally against "step", as its really a just a filter (and should support more than just every nth item)

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. What do you think of, say, [1.._**2..100]?

DJ McGoathem

I've been wanting to make a golfing language for a while. I'm not sure I can, but I'm gonna try.

Nathan Merrill

oh that reminds me...what ever happened to that array regex challenge

goes to the sandbox

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Thing is, though, I want to reduce the amount of programmer work, and that includes bookkeeping.

Nathan Merrill

yeah, but the only useful step is 2

and there are lots of other useful filters

Doorknob

4:06 AM

@El'endiaStarman Ruby does it like 0.upto(100).step(2) or whatever

orlp

so how do Pytek chains work?

El'endia Starman

@orlp There's a queue of arguments, and functions pull from that queue however many they need, and put their results on the queue.

Nathan Merrill

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ what is the status on your array regex challenge

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman do the results go on the end or beginning of the queue?

orlp

so it's a stack based programming language?

like forth?

Aqua Tart

4:07 AM

@Maltysen end

@orlp Nope. It's a functional language.

Anonymous

@orlp More similar to APL/Jelly/J

El'endia Starman

[1..n) ~ \product, n -> \mod, n-1 -> \equals will do Wilson's Theorem.

Aqua Tart

Chains are just special.

orlp

> There's a queue of arguments, and functions pull from that queue however many they need, and put their results on the queue.

that sounds like stack-based programming to me

Doorknob

queue-based?

orlp

4:09 AM

@Mego don't have experience with any of those

Maltysen

that's just for a single chain

Calvin's Hobbies

What other graduation features do we instantly have besides the "beta" label disappearing?

Doorknob

migrations

orlp

@Calvin'sHobbies less permissions for users

Nathan Merrill

@Calvin'sHobbies what other features do we need?

Doorknob

4:09 AM

@orlp not yet

that comes with design

@Calvin'sHobbies oh, also elections soon

orlp

can we migrate stuff away?

Anonymous

@Calvin'sHobbies We're shown as "launched" on A51, and we can have posts migrated here

orlp

or only into our site?

Doorknob

@orlp yeah

Maltysen

@Calvin'sHobbies picking our own ads, in 6-8 days

Doorknob

4:09 AM

both

Anonymous

@orlp We always could

Calvin's Hobbies

@orlp The privileges look the same - codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/privileges

orlp

what are the policy on migrating stuff that are on-topic on another site but will be closed anyway?

Doorknob

@Mego only to meta.PPCG

Aqua Tart

@orlp Functions of a stage in a chain, not functions in general.

Doorknob

4:10 AM

45 secs ago, by Doorknob

@orlp not yet

Anonymous

@Doorknob Oh I thought mods could migrate

Doorknob

@orlp Don't Migrate Crap™

@Mego yeah, I meant regular users

Anonymous

Ahh

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman I have no idea what that's supposed to evaluate to

orlp

@Mego to clarify

@Mego you do not count as a regular user

you are a penguin.

Anonymous

4:11 AM

I've never been an active, high-rep user on another site so I never experienced migrating

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. List of squares from 1 to 100.

Anonymous

@orlp waddle

El'endia Starman

I don't really like it that much myself, looking at it written out.

orlp

@Mego wenk

Doorknob

Underscore is reminiscent of Perl :P

Anonymous

4:11 AM

If you're going for intuitive programming, tacit programming probably isn't the way to go

Alex A.

Perl is reminiscent of toilet

Doorknob

ಠ_ಠ

Aqua Tart

@AlexA. _ is called a blank; it's a sort of default variable in maps nd what not.

El'endia Starman

@Mego I'm not exactly going for intuitive programming, but rather "Oh, that makes sense." programming.

Alex A.

@AquaTart I know. I've used a fair bit of Perl.

Maltysen

4:12 AM

is there a reason for the tex like syntax?

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman er, what's the difference?

Anonymous

That's what intuitive means

Maltysen

why the \'s

Alex A.

\

Nathan Merrill

intuitive means that the programmer is able to guess it

(IMO)

Doorknob

4:13 AM

good luck getting a backslash in inline code. It's different on chat, comments, and posts :P

Aqua Tart

@Mego It's a special feature. There are non tacit ways of course

El'endia Starman

The idea of _ is that it's a fill-in-the-blank sort of thing, so stuff like \map(_**2, [1..5]) works like you'd expect and produces [1,4,9,16,25].

Aqua Tart

@AlexA. Talking about Pytek not Perl

Alex A.

Oh wait

Use replies

Doorknob

^

Aqua Tart

4:14 AM

_ is something else in Perl

El'endia Starman

@Maltysen Inspired by LaTeX, which also inspired the decision to use [] for function options.

orlp

if my vote is worth anything

Doorknob

llama@llama:~$ perl -E 'say join " ", map{$_**2}1..5'
1 4 9 16 25

this is how it works in Perl

orlp

[3..5) is going to mess up any highlighting in mainstream editors

Doorknob

looks similar

Aqua Tart

4:15 AM

@AlexA. mobile, dont have chatsey on this device, experimental ui lags, deal

feersum

Backslashes in front of all the words is ugly though..

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman I'd do it somewhere else then. like [1..5:_**2]

Anonymous

@orlp That why customization exists

Anonymous

@feersum It's inspired by LaTeX

feersum

@Mego That doesn't make it not ugly.

Alex A.

4:15 AM

^ fair point

Doorknob

In LaTeX it makes sense because everything not preceded by a backslash is literally that word

In an actual programming language...

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob Like Nathan said, I consider "intuitive" to be something where you'd guess how to do it without too much effort. "Oh, that makes sense." is more like it might be odd or weird at first, but once you get used to it and understand the reasoning behind it, it'll be nice and succinct.

Doorknob

subtle difference

El'endia Starman

yeah

orlp

so...

do you guys feel empty inside after graduating?

like your life has lost purpose

Doorknob

4:17 AM

what are you talking about? I've always felt empty inside

Alex A.

I always do

Doorknob

NINJA'D

:P

feersum

"Oh, that makes sense" sounds like a synonym for Stockholm syndrome.

Alex A.

sadness ninja

Doorknob

Marvin-style ninja

Alex A.

4:17 AM

@Doorknob Anything not backslashed in Pytek could be an identifier, value, etc. (Idk, guessing here)

Aqua Tart

I like slashes since it distinguishes functions from other things

Alex A.

@Doorknob I thought that was Martin for a second and I was like "why is Martin sad"

Maltysen

so functions aren't objects?

Anonymous

in Seriously, 20 secs ago, by Mego

I had an interesting idea for Seriously: an "assembly language" of sorts, that would be pure ASCII and human-readable, which could be translated into Seriously code. It would make writing Seriously programs a lot easier.

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman if you do go with the _, then I'd recommend disallowing it as a variable name and possibly any variable that starts with _

Aqua Tart

4:18 AM

easy to parse too

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Well yeah, that's already the case.

Identifiers must start with a letter and contain only letters and numbers.

Aqua Tart

@Mego gs2 does this

Doorknob

Not being able to have first class functions/lambdas/whatevers makes me sad

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob What do you mean by "first class functions"?

Aqua Tart

@Doorknob functions are first class (at least they will be)

Doorknob

4:19 AM

First-class function

In computer science, a programming language is said to have first-class functions if it treats functions as first-class citizens. Specifically, this means the language supports passing functions as arguments to other functions, returning them as the values from other functions, and assigning them to variables or storing them in data structures. Some programming language theorists require support for anonymous functions (function literals) as well. In languages with first-class functions, the names of functions do not have any special status; they are treated like ordinary variables with a function...

functions that act like any other variable

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman Functions as objects that can be passed to other functions and used in other ways

Calvin's Hobbies

@El'endiaStarman Functions that you can pass around just like ints and strings (e.g. python) (ninja'd but w/e)

El'endia Starman

Then that's an emphatic yes for Pytek.

Doorknob

double ninja'd

ish

@El'endiaStarman so, why is the backslash necessary?

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman but then why are you differentiating them?

El'endia Starman

4:20 AM

@Doorknob Makes it easy to identify them.

Maltysen

ninja'd

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman I dunno, that's not a problem in... well, any other language ever

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman but there shouldn't be any difference between functions and say, an int

Aqua Tart

A function name without a backslash will be like a reference to it

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman are you doing static typing?

Aqua Tart

4:21 AM

Slashes is when you call them

Maltysen

@AquaTart so the backslash is equivalent to () in other languages?

Doorknob

in Rust, anything can impl the Fn trait (as well as its friends, FnOnce, FnMut, etc.), which allows function calling syntax to be used on it

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Static typing will be enforceable.

Maltysen

@Doorknob likewise, in Python, anything can overload __call__

Anonymous

@Doorknob Similarly, anything in Python that implements __call__

Nathan Merrill

4:22 AM

if not, if I have a function with a parameter, does that mean that the parameter is either always a function or always a variable?

Anonymous

Damnit ninja

El'endia Starman

As in, if you do int:x = 5, x must remain as an integer. If you do x = 5, then x behaves like in Python.

Doorknob

@Mego haha

Alex A.

@Mego haha

Aqua Tart

@Maltysen a part of it yes. () is still a thing too

Maltysen

4:23 AM

@El'endiaStarman will this be done in func args also?

Nathan Merrill

I think I'm done editing that

Aqua Tart

I feel like we're being interrogated here :p

Alex A.

四百二十燃やせ。

Aqua Tart

@Maltysen yes

Anonymous

@AquaTart We just want to understand your ~~crazy~~ interesting design choices

El'endia Starman

4:24 AM

@Maltysen Yes. func:foo(int:x) means that passing a non-integer to foo will throw an error.

@AquaTart Haha, I had a similar feeling. It's good for us to defend the language, though.

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman But the static typing is optional? So func:foo(x) would also be valid?

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. Yes.

Aqua Tart

@Mego I swear they'd make sense if you just tried them:P

Maltysen

what about typeclasses like haskell

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman Nice. That's how Julia does it. function foo(x::Int)

Maltysen

4:26 AM

like Number for int and float

Doorknob

struct F { i: i32 }

impl FnOnce<()> for F {
    type Output = i32;
    extern "rust-call" fn call_once(self, args: ()) -> i32 {
        self.i
    }
}

fn main() {
    let f = F { i: 42 };
    println!("{}", f());
}

there's a quick example in Rust that I threw together for fun :P

(I've never actually done that)

El'endia Starman

@Maltysen Elaborate?

Anonymous

@AquaTart Gimme an interpreter and I will :P

Aqua Tart

@Maltysen I believe that will be a thing

El'endia Starman

@Mego I only just got "Hello world!" working last night. Hold your horses... :P

Aqua Tart

4:27 AM

@El'endiaStarman Imagine it like int and floats are subclasses of number

Doorknob

@AquaTart seriously, use the reply button -_-

New Main Posts

1

Q: The Holier Numbers

As we learned from The Holy Numbers, there are 5 holy digits (0, 4, 6, 8, 9), and positive integers consisting solely of those digits are holy. Additionally, the holiness of a number is the sum of the holes in the number (+2 for every 0 or 8, and +1 otherwise). Now, there is an additional proper...

Anonymous

@NewMainPosts so slow

Maltysen

are we gonna get new images for the bots as part of the design?

Doorknob

those are Phi's masterpieces

Anonymous

4:28 AM

@Maltysen Why? They're perfect now

Anonymous

Especially the sandbox one

Aqua Tart

@Doorknob already explained why I can't reply

El'endia Starman

@AquaTart I don't see why we wouldn't do that. Have a hierarchy of types.

Doorknob

@AquaTart new mobile has replies now

Aqua Tart

@Maltysen yea phi made those

Alex A.

4:30 AM

@AquaTart Sumo'd

Aqua Tart

@Doorknob old device the new ui is kinda slow

Any other questions about Pytek? :p

Anonymous

ETA on release?

Doorknob

can it juic avodad

Anonymous

inb4 6-8 weeks

El'endia Starman

@Mego Pffffft I have no idea.

DJ McGoathem

4:32 AM

Alex A.

@DJMcGoathem halp this is avoddac

El'endia Starman

@Mego We have to finish the parser first, and that'll take maybe a week.

Then again, I might do it in two sleepless nights. I dunno.

Doorknob

@AlexA. avoddac is plooral of avodad ?

DJ McGoathem

Someone needs to make a golf language based around avacados.

Doorknob

more like antigolf

El'endia Starman

4:34 AM

@Doorknob > \juicAvodad() => "i tri for thirtee minut an no juic"

Alex A.

@Doorknob ˚| ͜ (~.~) ͜ |˚

@Doorknob Bowling

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman good enough

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman Pytek have reepel?

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. Nt yt.

Alex A.

ocay

El'endia Starman

4:35 AM

I definitely want to make one, though.

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman I can help if you want more help

Anonymous

Regex all the things

Alex A.

( ͡x ͜ʖ ͡x)

El'endia Starman

Compared to Pytek, the development of Minkolang was like child's play. :P

Anonymous

Esolangs do tend to be simpler than mainstream langs :P

Anonymous

4:37 AM

(with the obvious exceptions of Marbelous and Malbolge)

El'endia Starman

haha, yeah

DJ McGoathem

For example: Ook!

Anonymous

@DJMcGoathem Ook?

Alex A.

I think I did ??? in an evening.

Anonymous

It took me about 2 afternoons to crank out a REPL for Seriously and some basic commands

Doorknob

4:37 AM

Snowman took a while because I barely knew any C++ when I wrote it

it helped me learn a lot though

Anonymous

It then took me 5 months (and counting) to fix the REPL

DJ McGoathem

@Mego. Yup. It's so simple, even a monkey can code in it.

esolangs.org/wiki/ook!

Anonymous

@DJMcGoathem I know what it is; I was starting a loop with you :P

Alex A.

@Doorknob A lot of the C++ I know came from reading the Snowman source

Doorknob

\o/

El'endia Starman

4:38 AM

@Doorknob I learned quite a bit from developing Minkolang, and Pytek is gonna teach me so much more. :P

DJ McGoathem

@mego. Oops.

Doorknob

Ook*

Alex A.

Ooo

Anonymous

r/ooer

Doorknob

oh no not that

DJ McGoathem

4:40 AM

Shudders. @Mego, you should have warned me. I spent 4 seconds on that site, and have turned into a monkey bashing on a keyboard.

That was hideous.

Anonymous

Try to upvote a post without RES. I dare you.

El'endia Starman

@Mego Hmm. At the moment, I'm the only person working on the parser because I genuinely think that if quartata and I tried to work on it at the same time, it wouldn't go very well. However, once the parser is done, there remains the work of implementing all the functions, which will take a while. quartata has done basically all of the spec-writing we have. We will also need unit tests and a REPL. So yes, I'd appreciate your help, but not on the parser right this moment. :P

Anonymous

And when you're crying in a corner, go to r/ooerintensifies

Anonymous

@El'endiaStarman I'll help wherever I can

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman what is the goals of Pytek?

are*

El'endia Starman

4:44 AM

in Pytek, Feb 9 at 18:15, by El'endia Starman

Pytek is intended to be an actual, mainstream language that aims to reduce the amount of programmer work, largely by identifying and leveraging common patterns, such as nested loops. There are two overarching goals: 1) make the computer do as much of the programming work as possible, and 2) succinctness is power - there are great benefits to saying much with few words.

Such a good idea to write that out for future reference. :P

Alex A.

@NathanMerrill halp what is goal

Doorknob

gole

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman if you want it to be mainstream, why are you competing with they Python namespace?

the*

Py*** is used everywhere to refer to python packages

El'endia Starman

There was a long discussion on the name a while back... :P

Nathan Merrill

also, your description makes it seem that you place succinctness over clarity

El'endia Starman

4:47 AM

It used to be PyAcidic, then I thought of PyTeX, but that could easily be confused as a TeX package, so Pytek it became.

Nathan Merrill

but why the Py?

Anonymous

Because it's inspired by Python

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Succinctness is Power talks about this issue.

And I'm writing it in Python. And I like Python. :P

Anonymous

And I nag him whenever he makes a design choice that goes against The Zen of Python

feersum

Python is already very slow... the language will not be very usable if you add another layer to that

El'endia Starman

4:48 AM

The Zen of Python is a good guide.

Anonymous

@feersum citation-needed

feersum

@Mego For what?

Anonymous

The entire message

feersum

OK

1 min ago, by feersum

Python is already very slow... the language will not be very usable if you add another layer to that

El'endia Starman

@feersum How do you think JavaScript in the browser compares with Python natively? I'd say the former is slower than the latter. Does that mean it's not usable? Absolutely not.

Anonymous

4:49 AM

I wrote a language with a Python interpreter, and it's not noticeably slow

feersum

There you go!

@El'endiaStarman I think Javascript is the worst thing ever.

Anonymous

The language is even poorly optimized, and it still runs well

El'endia Starman

@feersum Computers are constantly getting faster. We (as in programmers in general) care a lot less about memory and raw speed than we did only a couple decades ago. The Hundred-Year Language discusses this, and was also part of the inspiration for the design choices I made/will make for Pytek.

feersum

Sure, if you do sufficiently small tasks then you will not be able to tell

El'endia Starman

> I can already tell you what's going to happen to all those extra cycles that faster hardware is going to give us in the next hundred years. They're nearly all going to be wasted.

Anonymous

4:54 AM

Besides, worrying about speed at this point would be Premature Optimization

El'endia Starman

> One way to design a language is to just write down the program you'd like to be able to write, regardless of whether there is a compiler that can translate it or hardware that can run it.

You can see me doing this in the transcript of this chat room wayyy back.

@orlp I do feel empty, but that's because I'm hungry. Brb getting food. :P

BrainSteel

We're graduating???

DJ McGoathem

@BrainSteel 41.media.tumblr.com/f88f21d0162f999b4a8812e6ade3bc24/…

BrainSteel

@AlexA. Funny that you were talking about my BF interpreter... I just added a new little test script. writeC.bf takes a BF program as input, and outputs a C program that does the same thing as that BF program :P

Alex A.

5:11 AM

@BrainSteel Yes indeed

@BrainSteel Oh, that's really neat!

By the way, how are things going? How's the internship?

BrainSteel

It's 5832 bytes, so it wouldn't win any contests here, but hey. 5421 of those bytes are autogenerated by a different BF program anyway.

It's awesome! And hard.

Alex A.

I'm glad it's awesome! What's hard about it?

BrainSteel

Well, there's a ton of responsibility I'm not used to while coding. The system is much larger and more complicated than anything I've worked on before.

Alex A.

What kind of coding are you doing?

BrainSteel

It's C# and VB. It's a tool for autogenerating a tool that is used by a tool to verify itself and also some other things, or something.

Alex A.

5:19 AM

uh what o_O

Sounds like a stimulating challenge if nothing else though :)

DJ McGoathem

Alex A.

@DJMcGoathem xkcd oneboxes in here so you just have to post the direct link to the comic rather than the image PNG

DJ McGoathem

Oneboxing? What's that?

BrainSteel

They have mean contracts that say I'm not allowed to be specific. It's fun! The end result (for now) is directly involved with the FMS in the c919 cockpit.

Alex A.

That's really cool!

@DJMcGoathem When you post an image URL and the image appears, that's oneboxing.

Zach Gates

5:29 AM

How could I check to see how long my SE profile has existed?

Alex A.

On a specific site or your network profile?

Zach Gates

Network profile. I can check a specific site from my account page

Calvin's Hobbies

That would have existed since your first site account I think

DJ McGoathem

I don't know for sure, but here is one way: stackexchange.com/users/4275232/zach-gates?tab=reputation

Zach Gates

@Calvin'sHobbies PPCG shows 10 months, SO shows 1y10m

DJ McGoathem

5:31 AM

That will show you the first site you got rep on.

Zach Gates

@DJMcGoathem Yeah that works. Thanks

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

What's the chance that I'll win a door prize? My local ACM chapter gives out door prizes to people who come to the meetings. You get an increased chance of winning if you solve the programming puzzle, however (but I always solve that puzzle). Thus, some people have 1 entry, while others have 2. ...

El'endia Starman

@NewSandboxedPosts @Justin I see you've begun subliminal messaging to get people to elect you as a mod.

somebody

D: The site will still receive a full design from one of our designers

Alex A.

5:46 AM

Is that a bad thing?

somebody

idk

we already have a theme thanks to the grad script

idk if we need a better one

Alex A.

It's not official.

El'endia Starman

Well, considering that SE's designers are professional designers...

Alex A.

ninja'd on the professional aspect

Was just about to say that

El'endia Starman

Oooh, maybe the upvote/downvote buttons could have ++ and -- inside the triangles. .... I'm sure that's been suggested before for the userscript, and I'm sure that's a terrible design decision. :P

Alex A.

5:50 AM

Haha

I actually hope the SE team won't take the userscript into consideration.

I'm excited to see what they come up with for us all on their own.

El'endia Starman

yeah

Though I do quite like the logo...

DJ McGoathem

Well, I think some of the designs on it are pretty cool.

Logo, upgoats,

El'endia Starman