The Nineteenth Byte

Alex A.

00:12

@Doorknob >:I

>:U

PhiNotPi

φ_φ

2

Alex A.

PhisNotEyes

El'endia Starman

You guys made him phi!

Doorknob

π_ಠ

El'endia Starman

Graduation day.... ++ ....

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

00:25

Faceception

El'endia Starman

@PhiNotPi This is all your fault.

4

quartata

oh dear

what has happened here

El'endia Starman

eyesplosion

Doorknob

Maybe I should timeout the chatroom... ♦_♦

Alex A.

pls

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

00:28

NO

quartata

use ♦

El'endia Starman

Though really, Conor and Molarmanful are more at fault for continuing. Srsly guys.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

okay I'm stopping

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

ⵕ_ⵕ

Done

quartata

delete all the things

PhiNotPi

00:28

☼_☼

El'endia Starman

kicks Phi

no

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

@quartata I can't – they'll come back for me!

Alex A.

29 messages deleted

PhiNotPi

while(! graduated) {graduationDate++; sleep(1 day);}

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. ....probably ought've moved them to the trash?

PhiNotPi

00:30

Reminds me of "the CIA thread" (an inside joke none of you know)

Alex A.

@El'endiaStarman I don't know. Why would it matter?

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

@AlexA. NO THEY'LL COME FOR ME!

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. There's now a screenful of "(removed)"s.

quartata

When should you delete messages and when should you move them to the trash?

PhiNotPi

The CIA thread, courtesy of the Q&A site I mod occasionally: fluther.com/5156/is-fluther-a-front-for-the-cia (warning: takes a while to load)

Alex A.

00:32

→ 14 messages moved to Trash

El'endia Starman

I typically delete only a few messages at a time. There is a mod-tool for deleting a batch of messages, which Alex used. I would've moved them instead to avoid the big ol' eyesore.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Self confidence = 0

Alex A.

→ 29 messages moved to Trash

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

@El'endiaStarman Okay, moved the deleted messages. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. Thanks. :)

Alex A.

I actually didn't realize you could move deleted messages.

Turns out you can.

TIL.

El'endia Starman

00:34

indeed :)

You're one of today's lucky 10,000!

Nevermind the fact that there are far fewer mods than that. :P

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

NOOO THEY WILL COME FOR ME!!!

PhiNotPi

I just realized that I actually have more "reputation" on that other Q&A than I do on StackExchange, despite points being +3/+5 instead of +5/+10

El'endia Starman

> that other Q&A

I think I know that beast of which you speak.

PhiNotPi

(the same one I linked to above)

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi Stack Exchange is two words

El'endia Starman

00:36

Oh, whoops, I was thinking of [REDACTED].

Alex A.

:P

PhiNotPi

I followed Java class naming conventions.

Alex A.

ಠ_ಠ

Doorknob

ಠ_ಠ

Geobits

in Beep Boop Maggot, 27 secs ago, by Geobits

Marky, you're alive!

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

00:38

There needs to be a programming language that is good with number sequences and only number sequences.

(I was thinking something that queries from OEIS.)

PhiNotPi

Putt?

El'endia Starman

^

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

@PhiNotPi Umwat?

Alex A.

Downgoat made literally that exact thing

PhiNotPi

As in, that thing DownGoat tried a day or two ago.

Geobits

00:39

It didn't go very well.

El'endia Starman

yesterday, by Downgoat

Putt is now a OEIS lookup tool

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

Oh that's why I don't see anything.

Hmm... I'm thinking of more.

It should be able to do addition, subtraction, etc. but only using number sequences.

And the sequences should pretty much be infinite.

Actually, now that I think of it, I should just integrate that into ESMin.

Alex A.

If it directly queries OEIS, that would be a standard loophole. Fetching the output from an outside source.

ӍѲꝆΛҐӍΛПҒЦꝆ

Oh, nevermind then.

It was so promising, too.

Geobits

00:56

Theoretical question: If instead of doing OEIS queries, the language had a giant database of sequences built in...? That doesn't sound that much different than having, say, a fib() function.

Still shady to me, but it's getting harder to argue against it.

Calvin's Hobbies

@Geobits I was thinking the same thing. I'd call it technically correct. (as long as brand new sequences are not supported)

PhiNotPi

Yeah, just make a local copy of OEIS, and update it with every successive version of the language.

Alex A.

Sounds like Mathematica

PhiNotPi

And you don't even have to make users download all of OEIS, just have a single server with it somewhere, and call it an online interpreter.

Geobits

"All of OEIS" is probably pretty small if all you need is the number->sequence mapping anyway.

quartata

01:02

And now, for quartata's pessimistic thought of the day.

You know, something I worry about is that eventually if we run out of easy and interesting challenge ideas we'll discourage new users from participating and the site will go stagnant.

We get a lot of new users from easy code golfs and hard code challenges/pop cons, but I don't see much participation from new users in hard code golfs.

And while I feel like this is true for a lot of SE sites (it's kinda already happened to SO), I worry that it might happen faster to us.

Geobits

I thought we decided it was Calvin's job to not let that happen?

Alex A.

Some of the big attention-drawing challenges have already been locked for historical significance. One example is Tweetable mathematical art.

quartata

@AlexA. Yeah, exactly. The 2 + 2 = 5 challenge is one of our most upvoted challenge but it'll be off topic soon

And 2014 without numbers is the kind of restricted source challenge we discourage.

Don't get me wrong, we need to discourage this stuff.

But we have to balance it with appealing to new users.

And that... worries me.

Alex A.

Discourage, but don't disallow. There are existing ones that have been interesting. 2014 was certainly well-received.

quartata

Catalogs seemed to be well received by new users too, but eventually you run out of languages.

Geobits

01:06

Geobits' optimistic thought of the day: I'm pretty sure people have been thinking this since the start of the site, and we haven't run out of challenges yet that bring people in. In fact, it's likely we gain more new users/day than a few years ago.

Alex A.

Yeah. I'm not at all worried about the long-term health of the site.

quartata

I looked in site analytics but I didn't see anything about users joined past month

Calvin's Hobbies

@Geobits Yeah. Looks like there's < 300000 sequences and if each sequence has 1000 64 bit numbers that's only a few Gb

quartata

@AlexA. I'm talking veryyyy far out. Like 2+ years.

I think like Grace Note said a long time ago a new puzzle type isn't a bad idea.

Alex A.

That's what I mean by long-term.

quartata

01:07

OK.

SuperJedi224

Hi guys

Alex A.

Hello

Geobits

@Calvin'sHobbies That's actually larger than I thought. Online interpreter probably would be better.

Alex A.

@quartata Well sure, a new challenge type is never a bad idea if it's feasible.

(and makes sense, etc.)

quartata

Right, but we aren't actively trying to invent new ones.

SuperJedi224

01:08

I decided to go back and actually do a full test of the map I published yesterday (I tested all of the jumps individually, as well as the first third or so straight through, but this is the first time I decided to test the whole thing in one go).

Some of the sections are just insane.

Alex A.

@quartata I don't see that as a problem.

quartata

We do already have a lot of interesting challenge types, but all of the more esoteric ones are very difficult to make challenges for.

Liam

^

except code golf

Alex A.

Again, I don't see this as a problem. After all, our subdomain is "codegolf" for a reason. :P

quartata

@AlexA. This is all theoretical musing on my part. I don't think it'll happen, but it could.

Geobits

01:09

@AlexA. :/

Liam

but (for me as a newish user) code golf is a pain in the ass because I would have to learn a language to be competitive

quartata

Actually I think one of the reasons we're getting new users is because of the amount of new languages.

Alex A.

@Geobits I'm not saying we shouldn't try to innovate. I just don't see it as some kind of urgent thing to maintain long term site health.

quartata

This place is probably the first taste of esolangs for a lot of SE users.

And esolangs rock.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

Alex A.

01:10

Btw, Code Sport without the trailing s makes my blood turn to jello.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Liam You could make your own if you wanted to spend that much time. That way, you'll know it like the front of your hand.

Geobits

@AlexA. Sure. I'm just still of the opinion that it shouldn't be codegolf.se. Don't mind me, just being a grump.

Liam

I like the esolangs more than the golf languages. I honestly feel that I could not win a golf challange even if I tried

Doorknob

> makes my blood turn to jello

Alex A.

@Doorknob I mean what I said.

SuperJedi224

01:11

I probably shouldn't have put two of the map's hardest jumps practically back-to-back, without a checkpoint in between them.

quartata

mm blood jello

Alex A.

@Geobits I agree and disagree. I think being CodeGolf.SE is fine but I also think we could benefit from a different name.

PhiNotPi

I feel like blood jello would lead to extreme diabetes.

quartata

@AlexA. Same.

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi Megadiabetes

Geobits

01:13

@AlexA. Yea, I'm not actively campaigning to change it. It just irks me when people say "we are called codegolf, after all" in that context :P

Alex A.

@quartata I've seen that on a Thai menu. It was some dish with congealed pig's blood.

quartata

@Liam GOLFING LANGUAGES ⊆ ESOLANGS

@AlexA. oh dear ew

Geobits

Oh yea, I've definitely seen blood jello on menus in Japan.

Alex A.

@Liam I don't play to win; I play to play. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Liam

I meant I like the ESOLANGS \ GOLFING LANGUAGES

SuperJedi224

01:14

And then there are the times when I get to one of the simpler jumps in between them, and forget to jump...

Calvin's Hobbies

@Geobits Actually, do they store 1000+ terms? primes only goes up to index 58

Geobits

Yea, it depends on the sequence I think. Some have tons, others only a few.

Which would lessen the utility for a lot of challenges.

Calvin's Hobbies

But we know the primes

Alex A.

@Geobits I was joking this time, but I do think that code golf is and always will be the centerpiece of the site.

Geobits

Well "how do I compare strings in Java" is the centerpiece of SO, but it isn't called javastrings.com ;)

Alex A.

01:15

It really should be

Geobits

:D

quartata

hahaha

Liam

@AlexA. Yeah me too. Code golf just doesn't have the appeal to me that some other challenges do. I think I just like challenges that are more substantial (i.e. the work is in actually figuring out how to do the thing, not golfing the thing down)

Calvin's Hobbies

Has codechallenges.se been suggested? Surely it has

quartata

Yes I don't like that name though

Honestly PPCG has a really good ring

Calvin's Hobbies

01:17

You don't like COCH?

PhiNotPi

ppcg.se (.se being the TLD)

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies As our subdomain? Yeah, I think that's in the meta thing.

Geobits

@Calvin'sHobbies Pronounce that?

Alex A.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

SuperJedi224

Alright that does it. I'm making the second of those two hard jumps a bit easier.

Alex A.

01:17

@Geobits I thought the centerpiece of SO was "how add numbers in JavaScript"

quartata

Yeah, COCH is pronounced parenthesis deg deg parenthesis

Doorknob

I don't think "Recreational Programming" has been suggested (except once as an offhand remark by me in chat). How about that one?

quartata

ew no

Alex A.

Pretty sure it's in there

But also I hate it

:P

quartata

PPCG is a good name.

Alex A.

01:18

18

Q: Should we change our name?

This site may have been built primarily on code-golf challenges and puzzles that have no winning criteria, but we have evolved away from that. Our name is outdated, and we should rebrand ourselves. Because the folks in the chat cannot seem to agree on a name, I'm going to post multiple answers a...

discussion

@quartata squartato.se

quartata

Sure beats the shit out of "Not Programming Related"

Not Programming Related – programmers.stackexchange.com

Launched Q&A site for professional programmers who are interested in getting expert answers on conceptual questions about software development.

Geobits

@AlexA. That's not even a question. Use jQuery, noob.

PhiNotPi

phi-and-associates.se

Alex A.

lel

PhiNotPi

Also, if we change our name we'd have to get rid of the ampersand. I want to keep it, since it's a "rare character."

Alex A.

01:22

"Associates" is too long for the subdomain. Certainly it should be shortened.

PhiNotPi

paa.se

Alex A.

I was thinking phi-and-ass.se

Because I'm 12

@Calvin'sHobbies Now it has

@Doorknob Nope, that's not in the list. I was wrong.

Doorknob

@AlexA. I've reported you to Stack Exchange for being underage

Alex A.

Fuck

Doorknob

Your account will have to be destroyed until you're 13

:P

Alex A.

01:24

Alright

Geobits

Speaking of which, how old were you when you joined, Doorknob?

Alex A.

42, but he's like Benjamin Button

quartata

@Geobits sshhh

TIL that (sub {}) gives a reference to the subroutine

I feel sooooo stupid

Alex A.

Why, because you're using Perl?

quartata

How does the pl interpreter even work if this is the case

Oh because I dereference it twice

Doorknob

01:27

@Geobits I was 12, but through some shenanigans with my parents creating my account on my behalf and supervising it or whatever, it didn't violate COPPA

Calvin's Hobbies

Are there some esolangs where practically any string not containing whitespace can be a variable name?

quartata

deref then &{}

@Calvin'sHobbies Any printable ASCII char can be a variable in pl.

But not a string.

RikerW

@Doorknob Technically bc my parents agreed/supervised me at the same age, I am good too.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

[20:30:38] Skarian : I did talk to [crush] today
[20:30:41] Skarian : I died
[20:30:41] c_o_n_o_robrien: "died"? D:
[20:30:50] Skarian : ingame :/
[20:30:54] c_o_n_o_robrien: oh

Out of context is the best context.

RikerW

lol

Alex A.

01:33

@Calvin'sHobbies Any string at all can be a variable name in SAS if you turn on extended names. But in that case you have to reference the names like N"What ever 434%$#".

PhiNotPi

I came across this edit in one of the queues: codegolf.stackexchange.com/posts/71680/revisions

Geobits

o_O

Alex A.

Um, @Liam? Why did you approve this?

That is definitely not appropriate for an edit. The rejection reason "This edit was intended to address the author of the post and makes no sense as an edit. It should have been written as a comment or an answer." is exactly right here.

Liam

because I'm a bad person

also I didn't know

I did actually look around on the meta but meh.

Alex A.

One million years dungeon

Liam

01:36

:(

Alex A.

(Nah, it's alright, just know that edits that add an entire separate answer should be rejected because it's a different answer)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

holy crap what did I miss last I checked the up/downgoat challenge was at 40 upvotes

RikerW

^

The "holy crap what did I miss" part.

SuperJedi224

At least, at the next checkpoint, I'll be more than halfway up the tower

Liam

tbh, the up/downgoat challenge reminded me a lot of Is it a bird/plane which had just become active in the sandbox again

El'endia Starman

01:39

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ ...wow, 163 score. Then again, that's probably because of the Mathematica answer.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@El'endiaStarman And the goat-validating builtin :P

El'endia Starman

Yep. That.

New plan: learn all the Mathematica builtins and secretly design questions for them. Reap the rep after posting.

Alex A.

The fact that Mathematica included an upright goat detection system is just absurd.

El'endia Starman

No, actually, it detects upright goats.

The answerer just added a "flip and check" thing.

quartata

^

Alex A.

01:41

I said upright

El'endia Starman

Suuuuurrrrreeeee....

Alex A.

( ͡• ͜ʖ ͡•)

quartata

Jan 5 at 5:08, by Dennis

mod abuse eleven

Doorknob

Anyone can edit messages...

Alex A.

Even non-mods can edit a chat message within a 2 minute window

Ninja'd but mine was more specific

SuperJedi224

01:43

I have decided that my next map will not be a parkour map

El'endia Starman

Done by a mod. Therefore, mod abuse.

quartata

^

mod abyus111!1

Actually it was past the 2 minute window I think

Alex A.

I thought mod abuse was when Doorknob hits me with his trout.

quartata

( ͡• ͜ʖ ͡•)

Calvin's Hobbies

Do all of you have shortcuts for those faces or what?

Doorknob

01:46

I have i3 keybinds

quartata

I just copy paste.

Doorknob

mod+C brings up the "actions" menu, [t] for "type," and then different letters for different things

quartata

But Rosetta Stone taught me how to copy paste faster than conventional means

@Doorknob mod+C? mod abyus 11111

Doorknob

ex. mod+c t s types out a shrug

@quartata you forgot the eleven

better

11/11

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies I have system text replacement to get Lenny, disapproval, table flip, and shrug.

Doorknob

01:48

github.com/KeyboardFire/dotfiles/blob/…

Alex A.

You have a rickroll key binding? ಠ_ಠ

Doorknob

yep

quartata

I approve

PhiNotPi

The amount of abuse in this room is just too much. Make PPCG great again.

2

El'endia Starman

Alex A.

01:50

ugh

so bad

quartata

Not even funny

Roujo

niiiiiiiiiice

quartata

0/0

El'endia Starman

[snicker]

Alex A.

[snickerdoodle]

quartata

01:50

love snickerdoodles

PhiNotPi

Also, I came up with a great prank idea: The president "accidentally" leaks the nuclear launch codes, but he actually says "dQw4w9WgXcQ".

Alex A.

I have no opinion of them because I haven't had one in like 6 years

quartata

haha

Alex A.

@PhiNotPi How many people would think to put nuclear launch codes into a YouTube URL? :P

PhiNotPi

Just googling the string is good enough.

Alex A.

01:52

how does goggle nucler lanch code

I try for thirtee minut and no cod

El'endia Starman

Halo is better.

</obscure-joke>

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

COD = call of duty?

</observation>

El'endia Starman

yep

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

gee gee

New Meta Posts

02:14

0

Q: Is this an acceptable way to shave a byte in ES6?

Say there's a challenge with two inputs. Can we submit a function signature like this? a=>b=>... Instead of (a,b)=>... The function then becomes callable as f(a)(b) instead of f(a,b), if we provide example usage. Is this considered acceptable, or should it be added to "standard loopholes"?

discussion policy answers

quartata

@NewMetaPosts This is just beta reduction, right?

Dennis

@quartata Just not for this site, considering that PP are off topic.

El'endia Starman

> considering that PP are off topic

That just sounds weird. :P

Alex A.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

VoteToClose

THAT FACE.

NO.

quartata

02:24

( ͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)

VoteToClose

PLZ.

quartata

oh yes

El'endia Starman

> oh yes

quartata

( ͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)

VoteToClose

/me ragequits.

Alex A.

02:25

@Dennis Granted, there's no actual consensus on whether they are or not. As long as there's an objective winning criterion, they wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) be closed as off topic.

@VoteToClose /me ragewaves

Sp3000

@NewMetaPosts The only problem I have with this is that it adds to the things-new-users-have-to-learn-about-the-site pile

Alex A.

@Sp3000 Agreed, but I think VTC has a point. As long as you specify how to call it, I don't think there's a good reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@NewMetaPosts I want to say "no" because you're technically writing N functions, but that's not a good objection.

Sp3000

@AlexA. Probably me being paranoid, but say hello to my new language InputLang, where f(a,b,c) outputs 1, f(a)(b,c) outputs 2, f(a)(b)(c) outputs 3...

Alex A.

It outputs the number of argument sets it's given?

I can't think of a situation in which that would be advantageous

quartata

02:32

@Sp3000 Not really. This is how arguments work in lambda calculus.

Hence my point about beta reduction.

It's not something unusual.

Sp3000

Not the number of argument sets, no (e.g. f(a,b)(c) could be 4). I was just thinking more encoding information in how the input is given

Yeah, lambda calculus is why I commented "I don't have any actual argument against it"

Alex A.

@Sp3000 I think that's already covered in a loophole

Dennis

I can't wait to use that in a challenge. f=lambda a:lambda b:a+b Oh, wait...

quartata

@AlexA. If it is that's not good

No Church Numerals

Sp3000

Hmm I don't think there's a loophole for that

Alex A.

02:35

Hm, I'll take a look

Sp3000

But a better example of what I mean is, say you had the program - that takes the difference between two inputs. With current rules it technically encodes two programs, a-b if the argument order is a,b and b-a if the argument order is b,a (or in addition, in e.g. Jelly, 0 if there's only a single argument)

So in a way you have 3 programs in the space of one by changing how input is given

Alex A.

Alex was wrong

No loophole that fits

Sp3000

It's probably nothing major, but it's on my "loopholes I hope people don't exploit" list

Alex A.

Most challenges already allow input in any order anyway though

Sp3000

Yeah, but I mean making a language that specifically exploits this fact

Alex A.

02:38

Right

Hm.

VoteToClose

So... when is ninja'd getting put in the memes page?

Geobits

It's already there; you're too slow.

SuperJedi224

Goodbye

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

bai

Alex A.

I'm surprised juic avocad isn't on there, now that it's leaked onto main.

quartata

02:53

It's on there.

Alex A.

It is?

Oh

quartata

Ye.

Alex A.

I guess I haven't kept up to date on advancements in meme science.

Doorknob

Any LaTeX ninjas around?

Geobits

Argh. Why is python so stupid?

Doorknob

02:55

in Beep Boop Maggot, just now, by Marky Markov

@Doorknob I'm not sure.

El'endia Starman

@Geobits ಠ_ಠ

quartata

@Doorknob What's your question

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob I have some experience with LaTeX.

Geobits

Ok, so I'm getting an exception on line 252. It's complaining that the sequence going into random_choice is empty. Makes sense so far.

Doorknob

@quartata If I have {\Huge blah blah}\hfill blah blah, how do I make the top edge of the text align, not the baseline?

Sp3000

02:56

Line 252 of...?

Doorknob

This is kinda hard to explain in text; lemme try to draw a picture

Geobits

So I add a print-debug line to find out why, and it doesn't print. Oh, ok, it must not be flushing stdout. googles... Ok, so now it should flush. Nope! Still not printing!

    print(bucket_id, flush=True)
    for _ in xrange(self.batch_size):
      encoder_input, decoder_input = random.choice(data[bucket_id])

Sp3000

Is this Python 2 with from __future__ import print_function?

Geobits

No, python 3.

Sp3000

Is xrange something else then? (confused)

Geobits

02:58

Hmm. Good point. Something might have lied to me... let me look.

El'endia Starman

xrange isn't in Python 3.

You want range.

quartata

^

Doorknob

Sp3000

Just checking it's not Geobits xrange™

Geobits

Why in the hell don't they just stop using 2 >_<

2

quartata

02:59

@Geobits Because 3 sucks

@Doorknob k one second

Geobits

Ok, so let me change my answer. Yes, it's 2.

El'endia Starman

@quartata ಠ_ಠ

Geobits

@quartata Right now I'm thinking they both do.

Transcript for