The Nineteenth Byte

quartata

03:00

I feel so strange having such little rep and yet having a gold badge anyways.

The power of catalogs I guess

mınxomaτ

Power is a word for it. I guess

feersum

/me posts question: Catalog: Print "catalog" to stdout.

El'endia Starman

@quartata It's even weirder to see low-rep users asking poor questions with gold badges. ... On SO. They're typically Famous Question badges...

@feersum *vote to close as dupe of "Hello world!" catalog

quartata

@El'endiaStarman SO doesn't really count because it's so high traffic

mınxomaτ

@feersum * catalogue

feersum

03:01

@El'endiaStarman Too slow it already has 40,000 votes.

El'endia Starman

@mınxomaτ *catalog

feersum

Catalog is golfier, so I prefer that spelling.

El'endia Starman

@quartata I know. It's still weird. :P

feersum

Also, never use the word "shorter" again.

El'endia Starman

@feersum ...but "golfier" and "shorter" are equally golfy/short...

(And so are "golfy" and "short"! :P)

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

03:03

@El'endiaStarman catz in logs

feersum

Golfier has more golf.

quartata

Death during a Star

►

SM64 glitch video du jour

feersum

He took too long thinking about the golfiest path?

Doorknob

After I get a haircut, my hair is golfy.

quartata

@Doorknob My hair is like Java.

10

Doorknob

03:07

hahaha

quartata

Long and there's nothing you can do about it

phase

quartata

@phase I usually don't provide explanations for curly braces, since programmers have an almost instinctive understanding of them.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@quartata My hair is like Malbolge in the morning.

2

quartata

Disappointing Observations

►

I love disappointment

El'endia Starman

03:08

@quartata You'd be wrong when it comes to Minkolang. :P

quartata

> I was saddened to see disappointment in my inbox.

Filthy pleb

@El'endiaStarman Well, that's an exception.

Seadrus

@quartata and ><>

quartata

Only because your language is weird

Doorknob

@quartata What about Snowman? :D

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@quartata And Jolf.

phase

03:09

@quartata It's just explaining what the code inside the codeblock does

quartata

@Doorknob That's a fair point. I use Snowman in production code and I usually have to put comments on the braces

2

@phase I also don't like how it's formatted -- I think it should just be like { NEWLINE code NEWLINE }

The thingy with the numbers fitting inside the braces but on different lines is a little weird to me, but that's just my opinion.

@Doorknob stop pinning stuff

okay seriously stop abusing pins

Doorknob

I didn't pin anything! D:

Thomas Kwa

@quartata I got Fanatic around 3k

El'endia Starman

I'm 2/3rds of the way to Fanatic woo!

Thomas Kwa

No wait

quartata

03:20

I almost just got Enthusiast on SO despite having never done anything on there

quintopia

i'm a little over halfway to enthusiast

Thomas Kwa

I got Fanatic at 1.6k

quintopia

how many is fanatic?

Thomas Kwa

@quintopia 100 days

quintopia

dang

quartata

03:21

@quintopia I'm at 69 consecutive days.

Doorknob

huh, I'm at 103. I actually didn't know that. (I got Fanatic a long time ago)

quartata

Notice I've only been here for 69 days.

Thomas Kwa

Whoa, there's a user with Fanatic at 131 rep

quintopia

well

maybe i'll be a fanatic by my 100th day

as long as the chat room counts

feersum

What actions count toward using the site on a day?

quartata

03:22

@quintopia It does not.

@feersum Visiting it does it.

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob If you got a Fanatic badge for every consecutive streak of 100 days, I'd have over 400 on Christianity.SE. :P

quartata

Don't have to post anything.

El'endia Starman

@feersum Visit- ninja'd.

quintopia

well that's sad

i probably will lose my streak

Thomas Kwa

You could cheat and make a bot to visit the site for you

quartata

03:24

@El'endiaStarman How?

I don't think Christianity SE has been around for 110 years

Doorknob

well, 101 days would give two badges :P

quartata

Say El'endia you're looking pretty good for 110

What's the secret? Olive oil? Chocolate? Cigarettes?

feersum

@quartata That was the question - what is "visiting"

Thomas Kwa

@quartata I suspect Starman is secretly Jesus

quartata

@feersum curl codegolf.stackexchange.com

I guess you'd have to have the cookie though

feersum

03:26

What if one commented or voted on a page already open from the day before?

quartata

That wouldn't count I don't think.

Doorknob

03:38

Google / GMail has a maximum password length?! ಠ_ಠ

quartata

@Doorknob Seriously?

What is it?

I did not know this.

Doorknob

100

quartata

Jeez

Doorknob

Password lengths should not have an upper bound (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Calvin's Hobbies

Not even int.maxValue?

Doorknob

03:40

Well...

Not 100, at least.

quintopia

not everything can be a varchar. not when efficiency is a major concern

quartata

Hm.

I don't think people would really run into that though.

My longest password is like 40 chars or so I think, and I really like long passwords.

Doorknob

@quintopia ... are you seriously implying that Google stores passwords in their databases? -___-

quartata

Sounds less like one of those dumb "people will forget it" limits and more of a technical limit

Doorknob

How could 100 be a technical limit?

quartata

03:42

@Doorknob I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

Doorknob

-_-

quartata

But it wouldn't make much sense as anything else.

Doorknob

Why not?

Maaaybe something like 500-1000 would make more sense

Calvin's Hobbies

People like tens. Easier to remember.

Doorknob

so 1000 then

Calvin's Hobbies

03:44

Like why is the SE char limit 30000?

feersum

@Calvin'sHobbies Obviously to encourage better golfitude.

Doorknob

Because that's a technical limitation. Database size and whatnot.

Calvin's Hobbies

I bet it could be 32767 at least (2^15-1)

quartata

Well when you think about it

feersum

@Doorknob What makes you think that?

Doorknob

03:45

Okay, but 100 is still way too short for a maximum password length

@feersum Because you don't want to store posts that are like 1GB large -_-

feersum

You don't want to do that, but that doesn't make it technically impossible.

Doorknob

Well yeah, it's not impossible

quartata

I thought it might be a size thing like that, but it isn't.

feersum

That just as well describes my reason of "better golfitude".

Doorknob

But it would be much more expensive to get all that storage, of course...

What?

Calvin's Hobbies

03:47

huh?

feersum

SO should require questioners to golf their code before submitting so they won't waste so much disk space.

quartata

Wait, I'm really dumb.

Pretend I didn't say anything.

El'endia Starman

@Doorknob I found this out several years ago.

quartata

@El'endiaStarman You use 100 char passwords?

I'm impressed.

El'endia Starman

Funnily enough, my GMail password was, for a couple years, 3. and 96 digits of pi. :P

quartata

03:50

@El'endiaStarman Jeez

El'endia Starman

I found out because I tried to put in a 400-something char password...

quartata

That's impressive.

El'endia Starman

Took 25 seconds using the numpad. :P

phase

s = getSpaces(beforeSpaces) + "{" + getSpaces(event.object.string.length) + "}" + (if event.object.type is ObjType.DoLoop then "d" else (if event.object.type is ObjType.WhileLoop then "w" else "")) + getSpaces(maxSpaces-beforeSpaces-g+1-(if event.object.type is ObjType.DoLoop or event.object.type is ObjType.WhileLoop then 1 else 0)) + (if event.object.type is ObjType.DoLoop then "For Loop" else (if event.object.type is ObjType.WhileLoop then "While Loop" else "Push CodeBlock to the stack"))

Can be golfed more :P

ETHproductions

Is there someone here who could help me golf a Pyth program?

quartata

03:52

@ETHproductions @isaacg

feersum

Is there any python module to add a ? : style ternary operator?

quartata

@feersum I thought Python had this.

Calvin's Hobbies

@feersum There is inline A if B else C

quartata

Ah right. That's how you do it

I haven't used Python is so long

feersum

@Calvin'sHobbies Of course. I mean a module to add a non-atrocious version of the ternary.

Like cond ? thing1 : thing2

Doorknob

03:55

Rust's is if (cond) { thing1 } else { thing2 } which is pretty nonatrocious. :P

feersum

@Doorknob The braces are required?

ETHproductions

0

A: When is Thanksgiving?

Pyth, 30 * 75% = 22.5 bytes I'm 100% positive that this could be made shorter, but hey, it's my first Pyth program! \o/ +-28%+-+-Q2/Q4/Q100/Q400 7"-11 Test suite Outputs the date in dd-mm format. Please suggest ways to golf this if you can! I'd like to learn more about Pyth.

I have no clue how to even start golfing this :/

Doorknob

@feersum yes

feersum

If the curly braces are needed, I'd say that qualifies as atrocious.

Doorknob

There's no such thing as if (foo) bar; in Rust.

quartata

03:57

@Doorknob I thought you had to use match

I legitimately didn't know Rust had if

phase

if cond then a else b inline ternary in CoffeeScript

feersum

More atrocious than Python's even.

Doorknob

@quartata ...

@feersum Why? I mean, for golfing, sure, but...

quartata

Uh

That was awkward. (again)

What I meant to do was

0

A: When is Thanksgiving?

Objective C, 1470 bytes I don't code good but here objective c solution. #import <Foundation/Foundation.h> int dayForChar(char ch, int year) { int ym = year%28; switch(ch) { case 'k': if (ym == 0 || ym == 6 || ym == 17 || ym == 23) return 24; ...

Not golfed mods nuke pls

feersum

@Doorknob To write something like x = a ? b : c you would apparently need to have all those braces on one line, or use up several lines, which are both ugly.

Doorknob

03:59

@feersum it's not ugly

feersum

@Doorknob Which one?

Doorknob

let x = if a { b } else { c };

feersum

The if parens are optional?

Doorknob

yes

feersum

That's even worse :P

Doorknob

04:00

Actually they shouldn't be there

I put them by mistake because my Rust is rusty

:P

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

C++ Expression Matching code-challenge c++ arithmetic So, I like C++. And I like regex matching puzzles (heck, "regex golf" is what first got me lurking on this site). Might as well try to sort of combine the two! Rules Write a full program that takes as input two lists of zero to five intege...

quintopia

@Doorknob No. But I am implying that there's a limited number of fixed length hashes, and no good reason to seed them with more bits than could possibly make a difference. And even if you did, it takes longer to hash a longer string.

quartata

> I hope diamonds appreciate.

They do not.

quintopia

diamonds do exactly what debeers wants them to do

Dennis

@VoteToClose Incremental output and killing should work properly now. cjam.tryitonline.net/…

feersum

04:03

Who should we kill first?

El'endia Starman

Townspeople, go to sleep.

Mafia, wake up.

Doorknob

points to Dennis

El'endia Starman

Uh huh, okay.

Mafia, go to sleep.

Doorknob

closes eyes

El'endia Starman

Townspeople, wake up.

feersum

04:04

Dennis is in a VM now, so we can execute him.

quartata

Dennis was brutally murdered last night. He appeared to have been force-fed poisoned cherry jam.

Dennis was a Sheriff.

Townspeople, time to vote.

Dennis

...

quartata

(wow no one got the cherry jam joke)

It took me a full minute to think of it.

El'endia Starman

Oh, I got it. I'm just the narrator. :P

quartata

@El'endiaStarman Mkay.

Doorknob

04:07

I vote that feersum is the Mafia!

El'endia Starman

@feersum, why are you not Mafia?

Doorknob

After all, he did say

4 mins ago, by feersum

Who should we kill first?

El'endia Starman

As no defense has been put forth by feersum, he is to be lynched at dusk.

quintopia

/me votes @Doorknob

quartata

@El'endiaStarman Wait, why?

quintopia

04:10

you didn't even count my vote

quartata

There were more people.

El'endia Starman

'cause I don't really feel like narrating a game that takes hours. :P

quintopia

uhhuh

El'endia Starman

Oh, @Doorknob has been accused!

quintopia

you only like it when you're scum

El'endia Starman

04:12

Say, Doorknob, why are you not Mafia?

Doorknob

I'm immobile

how could I kill people

El'endia Starman

Well, there you have it.

Townspeople, who do you want to lynch? Feersum or Doorknob?

Doorknob

I vote feersum!

(duh)

quintopia

unvote @Doorknob

vote @El'endiaStarman

Doorknob

you can't lynch the narrator :P

El'endia Starman

04:13

strawpoll.me/6104020

quintopia

you don'

t tell me who i can lynch

(mafia scum!)

El'endia Starman

Need at least one more vote on the strawpoll...

Calvin's Hobbies

Let's not lynch anyone how about?

Doorknob

but then the game is boring :P

quintopia

everyone knows a day 1 lynch is pro-town

only scum would suggest nolynch day 1

points FOS at @Calvin'sHobbies

El'endia Starman

04:20

WELL. At this time, the vote is 2 for Doorknob, 1 for Feersum.

Feersum has been set free, replaced by Doorknob!

phase

POLL: Why don't you golf in O?

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman D:

El'endia Starman

Awfully nice of you, @Doorknob. Giving your life so another may live... :P

quintopia

@phase why is it pick 1

Doorknob

@phase because I don't know O

2

that should be an option -_-

quintopia

04:22

@phase and if it's gonna be pick 1, why is there no all of the above

:P

phase

@quintopia "other"?

El'endia Starman

That's what I'd pick. "I don't know O."

quintopia

other counts as "none of the above"

El'endia Starman

As it stands, I did pick "other".

quintopia

@phase the real answer is that it has yet to prove itself as a contender for an "excellent golfing language"

@phase write more winning answers in it

phase

04:23

@quintopia Yeah, there's still a lot to be added until it can compete with CJam or Pyth.

El'endia Starman

Oooh! The strawpoll is at 2/2! Doorknob might have a chance!

Doorknob

:D

quintopia

are there any cell-based golfing languages?

(3:2 against doorknob)

El'endia Starman

@quintopia I'd offer Minkolang but I'm pretty sure you're thinking of a different kind of cell. :P

Doorknob

nuuuu

phase

04:26

@quintopia As in BF cells?

El'endia Starman

4 to 2 against Doorknob now!

quintopia

@phase yes

phase

@quintopia Well, there's BF, and every BF clone.

quintopia

basically "memory is one giant array"

@phase obvi not golfing languages

phase

I think an actual golfing language out of it would be quite verbose

El'endia Starman

04:28

Not necessarily.

What makes golfing languages golfy is that they have commands that do a lot of stuff.

quintopia

@phase despite the fact that this is how RAM works?

even stack-based languages use the "one giant array model" under the hood

El'endia Starman

4:3 against Doorknob!

Doorknob

eeeek

feersum is more fearsome than me!

That's my proof :P

El'endia Starman

Anyway, anyone want to help me test my ideas for my next language?

quintopia

total scumtell

El'endia Starman

04:31

As in, toss out simple programming exercises and I'll "solve" them.

quintopia

@El'endiaStarman what sort of language

phase

@quintopia That kind of memory model isn't easy to manipulate. Stack based languages are easy to manipulate because of popping and pushing, while managing a bunch of memory cells takes moving to that required cell, and then doing the manipulation you want.

quintopia

@phase that's a lot of assumptions about how memory is accessed

@El'endiaStarman have you already solved "output third largest in list"?

El'endia Starman

@quintopia Mathematica-level in terms of built-ins, uses tokenization like TI-BASIC (so something like \fold( would only be 1 or 2 bytes), and possibly uses stuff like APL's trains or other unique language features. If you have two functions/lambdas and multiply them, you get another function/lambda that will pass arguments to both functions and multiply them. That sort of thing.

I haven't started writing an interpreter or anything because I'm still thinking about its structure and language.

quintopia

What is fold again

phase

04:35

@quintopia 1 2 3 /+ => 1+2+3

El'endia Starman

@quintopia Perhaps something like \fromRight(L,3

I think reduce is a synonym.

quintopia

So... Basically reduce?

Okay

El'endia Starman

yeah

Maybe I'd write it as \reduce(. Doesn't really matter.

quintopia

Sounds largely functional paradigm

El'endia Starman

The point is that it's 1 byte internally.

Yeah, maybe.

quintopia

04:37

And golfy

El'endia Starman

Very golfy.

If I pull this off, it should beat Pyth.

quintopia

Can't wait to see that

El'endia Starman

That'd be cool, yeah.

But I also want to make it more than just an esolang. Like, it would be awesome if I started using it for purposes outside of PPCG.

quintopia

I'd like to see a Huffman coded language, where token lengths are measured in bits

El'endia Starman

I've thought about that a bit.

Like assigning a few common instructions to half bytes.

The issue is that the one-byte space is cut severely.

quintopia

04:41

Huffman coding assigns bit sequences optimally given a sufficiently large body to sample the distribution

El'endia Starman

Yes, but how do you get that "sufficiently large body"? That's the problem.

Thomas Kwa

@quintopia There are many common pairs of characters

quintopia

You'd design the language first, use it for a long time, and then assign bits to tokens

Thomas Kwa

Taking them into account can get a little better than Huffman

I don't know Pyth well enough to know its idioms

El'endia Starman

You could analyze the specific instructions used in answers to PPCG, but the best in terms of distinct "ideas" might not be the golfiest, so there's a bit of a problem there.

quintopia

04:43

@ThomasKwa then we let those common pairs be tokens

El'endia Starman

Oh, I got the "third largest item in a list" one wrong. It'd be more like \fromRight(\sort(L)3 for a total of 5 bytes.

I'm planning on writing a pretty complex parser so you don't need commas everywhere if it's unambiguous.

Thomas Kwa

@El'endiaStarman Be like Pyth and get rid of that close-paren

quintopia

How about "sort the tokens in my own listing"?

Thomas Kwa

I think making most operators vectorize on lists when they don't have other special meanings would help greatly

El'endia Starman

@ThomasKwa At this point, I don't think I really want to restrict variable names to one character.

I probably could do \fromRight(\sort(L3 for 4 bytes.

If there's no variable named L3.

Thomas Kwa

04:47

Also trains would be very golfy

quintopia

@El'endiaStarman how many characters do you want in identifiers, and from which alphabet?

El'endia Starman

Or, y'know, \nLargest(L3 for 3 bytes.

Thomas Kwa

@El'endiaStarman That could actually be good

El'endia Starman

@quintopia I'd like to have a \name( function for assignment to variables. I'm considering making all commands start with `\` so you can use alphabetical characters without quotes.

Thomas Kwa

Pyth has a function where giving 'num,seq' as arguments does largest, but 'seq,num' does smallest, or something like that

El'endia Starman

04:49

'course, \nLargest(L3 would only be 3 bytes if \nLargest( was 1 byte. I think it'd be more likely to be 2 bytes.

I want to not only have math, string, list, and function operations, but also graphics, file, internet, images, that sort of thing.

quintopia

Because you could just say "all pairs of lowercase letters are tokens, as long as no more than x different ones appear, each of which is assigned a byte code at compile time"

El'endia Starman

I figure that a lot of math functions will be 2 bytes. One byte to say "this is a math function" and one byte for which function. That'd give me 256 2-byte math functions. o_o

quintopia

Or really... You could tokenizing arbitrary identifiers at compile time

El'endia Starman

The golfiest solutions would tend not to have identifiers. Like, look at how rarely Pyth and CJam use variables.

(Though when they are used, they're very useful.)

quintopia

Not rarely in Pyth. Usually maps and stuff. Require variables.

El'endia Starman

04:53

Well, okay. I've rarely noticed.

quintopia

But it hardly makes sense to talk about id3ntifiers there, since they did exactly what I'm talking about: predefined variables to be drawn from a particular set of byte codes

El'endia Starman

Uh-huh.

quintopia

It's just you could give those predefined bytes arbitrary names

El'endia Starman

Remember that I'm looking to make this language even more general-purpose.

Like, that I could write a complex project in.

quintopia

Sure. Hence suggesting allowing arbitrary names

El'endia Starman

04:55

I read this article a couple days ago and I've been mulling over it since.

Like, how awesome would it be to have a \balancedBinaryTree( function that takes a list and optional function and ~~automatically~~ automagically does all the data structure work for you?

feersum

I think that article misses an important aspect of power in practice.

You need to be able to code close to the machine when it is necessary.

Dennis

Language index is live: tryitonline.net

El'endia Starman

@Dennis Awesome! :D

Dennis

:)

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