The Nineteenth Byte

Downgoat

12:03 AM

@ThomasKwa the name itself may be permanent, but I'll change it to small caps next month

anOKsquirrel

what wait

Java isn't an esoteric programming language?

4

flawr

@ThomasKwa Thank you for the suggestion, I updated my answer accordingly=)

Thomas Kwa

12:23 AM

@flawr No prob

Dennis

1:07 AM

@VoteToClose Pulled.

VoteToClose

1:25 AM

\o/

mınxomaτ

1:50 AM

Awesome underground trampolines

quartata

2:01 AM

I thought of a challenge, not sure if it is a dupe

Dennis

1 hour later…

quartata

I need a second to design an example of it.

Dennis

You should have thought about that before starting to tease. :P

quartata

All right, here we go.

                             e
                             s
                             s
                             s
                             s Y

#           #                #s           #
#s          #                #s           #
#s          #                #s           #
#s          #s               #s           #
#s          #s               #s           #
 x           x                x            x

So, what is this?

Dennis

Snowman source code?

quartata

2:04 AM

Basically, the #s represent lines in a grocery store.

And an s is a shopper.

Oh hold on I made a mistake

Dennis

Was that the mistake?

quartata

Each generation, the e spews out a shopper.

The shoppers move downward until they pass the Y (you)

When they do so, you must redirect them to the shortest line #

The shoppers disappear when they hit the x.

Doorknob

@Dennis haha, no, that would be an error

quartata

So given an input like this, you simulate the next generation of this.

There can be arbitrary amounts of lines, but they must be terminated with an x for them to count as lines

There can be multiple es as well, but only one Y

Is this similar to something?

Dennis

Interesting. It isn't similar to anything I recall, but I have a terrible memory.

quartata

2:10 AM

ermahgerd dennis-senpai called my challenge interesting

I was just asking because I know we've had a lot of grid-based challenges like this

quintopia

Here's a new python 2 quine: print eval(chr(37).join(['print eval(chr(37).join([%s]*2))[1:-1]']*2))[1:-1]

It contains so many backticks

Zach Gates

Are table tags valid in GitHub's markdown (for readme-s)?

Chris Jester-Young

@ZachGates Why would you? GitHub-flavoured Markdown has built-in table support.

Dennis

Oh, the OP's comments on a challenge have a blue background for the username now.

When did that happen?

quartata

@Dennis That's always been a thing.

Dennis

2:17 AM

That can't be true...

quartata

Sadly it is.

@ChrisJester-Young confirm

Doorknob

That has been a feature on every network site for as long as I can remember.

quartata

Eh, good enough.

Dennis

Seriously? For comments?

Doorknob

nods

VoteToClose

2:18 AM

> Seriously?

quartata

Ye.

Doorknob

@quartata oh, so I'm only good enough? (kidding :P)

quintopia

Is seriously named after the doorknob quote?

quartata

I would have preferred if a SE developer had confirmed so I could rub it in Dennis's face, but meh.

Dennis

No.

Doorknob

2:19 AM

@quintopia I believe the language predates the chat message

quartata

@quintopia Seriously is named after this challenge:

34

Q: Seriously, GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth?

Some time ago, the following question was asked: GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth? Based on the title only, I thought that it would be a very nice challenge, but unfortunately, it turned out to be a question asking for tips. Here is the challenge I wanted to read: Who said golfing languages were not...

quintopia

Clever

quartata

From the title, I was hoping this included a new esoteric language called "Seriously". — mbomb007 Sep 23 at 15:21

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@VoteToClose which version was it?

(of Vitsy)

quartata

FYI that challenge is really cool, if anyone ever makes an answer to it that actually uses Bayesian statistics or something and isn't like Mego's smart-ass answer I will shower that thing in bounties

Chris Jester-Young

2:21 AM

@quartata Correct.

quartata

@ChrisJester-Young :D

@Dennis Take THAT!

VoteToClose

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ github.com/VTCAKAVSMoACE/Vitsy/tree/…

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Danke

quartata

Undertale OST - Battle Against A True Hero Extended

►

(a.k.a the gg wp no re genocide run song)

I don't even play Undertale and yet I've been listening to this all day

Dennis

Oh god, the Wayback Machine confirms. I've been an SO/SE member for 4 years and 2 months, and I just noticed that!

3

Doorknob

2:27 AM

hahaha

quartata

@Dennis rekt

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I've "been" on this site for a year

quintopia

Conor!

Where can I find docs for your language

VoteToClose

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ You still have the online interpreter linked, which already had fixes done for it.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@VoteToClose oh dang

quartata

2:34 AM

I think I'm going to put that challenge in the sandbox

@El'endiaStarman while I'm writing that up, any thoughts on that challenge I proposed (scroll up)

quintopia

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ please.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

wat

El'endia Starman

@quartata It'd be fun to watch in real time.

quartata

@El'endiaStarman It would.

Hm.

El'endia Starman

Also, I assume that shoppers will take a variable amount of time to finish, yes?

quartata

2:37 AM

@El'endiaStarman I actually hadn't thought about what the shoppers would do in the aisle.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

>_< someone rage kicked me on TF2.

skrubs

quartata

I was planning on making it a random amount of generations between 1-5 yes

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ ayy lmao

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@quintopia OH which language?

quartata

Got called a hacker within 50 hours of TF2 ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I think it's just part of the game.

quintopia

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ uh. I can't remember the name, but I know it was yours and for golfing

quartata

2:38 AM

@quintopia Simplex

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

....

@quartata Or Jolf

Yeah that

Or Comm

Simplex

Oh lemme see

@quintopia Here

New Main Posts

2:40 AM

0

Q: Adjacent Letter Test

One aspect of password strength testing is runs of adjacent letters on the keyboard. In this challenge, a program must be created that returns true if a string contains any runs of adjacent letters. What counts as a run of adjacent letters? For this simplified version of a password strength tes...

code-golf keyboard

quartata

2:51 AM

Trying to think of a good name for the challenge and failing

All I've thought of is "Half Foods"

For now I'll call it "Grocery Store Micromanagement"

Dennis

Aw, I was going to call my next esolang that.

quartata

Ha-ha.

Eridan

@MartinBüttner Here you go.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Cops and Robbers - Find the Formula Cops will write a function that takes numerical inputs and produces numerical outputs (note - outputs can be any base and may contain letters). They will post the language, the number of bytes it takes to write the code (up to 128), rounded up to the nearest p...

Eridan

Or that

General channel feedback also accepted

quartata

3:05 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Grocery Store Micromanagement You are an employee at the hip new grocery store Half Foods, and it's the day before Thanksgiving. Since the store will be packed with customers rushing to get their turkeys, pumpkin pies and/or lentil loaves, the store needs a traffic manager to send everyone to th...

Very barebones spec ready

This reminds me a lot of NetHack for some reason.

Doorknob

not me O_o

quartata

Maybe it's just the ascii art.

I don't even know what to tag this thing

code-golf ascii-art obviously

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

quartata

Ye?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

That's a tag suggestion

quartata

3:10 AM

Ah.

I just noticed that Whole Foods is actually experimenting with a "Half Foods"

I may need to change the name

Chris Jester-Young

Lolololol.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

o-o

quartata

Before I get slammed with downvotes yeah the spec isn't specific enough I'm working on it

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Grocery Store Micromanagement You are an employee at the hip new grocery store Half Foods, and it's the day before Thanksgiving. Since the store will be packed with customers rushing to get their turkeys, pumpkin pies and/or lentil loaves, the store needs a traffic manager to send everyone to th...

quartata

Making the grids is actually really hard I'm not much of an ASCII artist

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

3:19 AM

peace out

quartata

3:31 AM

wow no comments on the ridiculous reason for short code

New Sandboxed Posts

3:50 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

You are the Weakest Link, Goodbye This king-of-the-hill challenge is based off of the game show, Weakest Link. The goal of this KoTH is to gain as much money as possible, across many rounds. At the start of each round, the Pot starts out with $0. A group of 9 players is formed, and each playe...

Thomas Kwa

@quartata I'd do it if the challenge were specified well enough.

quartata

@ThomasKwa It is kinda underspecified

I took it to mean just pass the examples

Thomas Kwa

Hardcoding could do it in...

~100 bytes, at most

quartata

@ThomasKwa Yeah, basically.

I more just meant like an "actual" solution really

Thomas Kwa

see, when the challenge doesn't specify what that is, I'm not really motivated to try

quartata

4:00 AM

It might be better if it had a longer list of examples

It was a strange concept to begin with

Thomas Kwa

It would be better if it said exactly when a solution would pass.

quartata

But I thought it might be cool to see something a little more mathy and a little less tricky

mınxomaτ

Are floating point "errors" consistent across all JavaScript implementations?

Thomas Kwa

99% of an infinite number of GS/CJam/Pyth programs doesn't make sense

quartata

^

99% of PPCG GS/CJam/Pyth programs would make slightly more sense

But it would be infeasible to test

Thomas Kwa

4:01 AM

It could probably be done with basic frequency analysis

With some special cases, of course

quartata

@ThomasKwa The problem with that is CJam and GS share a lot of letters

Thomas Kwa

But not to very high accuracy for short programs

quartata

Some common things to look for would be CJam's i for int cast and GS's ~ eval since it's commonly seen at the beginning

Thomas Kwa

@quartata I don't know Golfscript, but I thought it didn't use letters?

quartata

@ThomasKwa It has stuff like if and zip.

I suppose you could look for those specific words since they'd never be seen together in CJam.

It would require some tinkering for sure

golfscript.com/golfscript/builtin.html

Thomas Kwa

4:07 AM

One could, of course, just golf the interpreters

Dennis

What's this for?

Thomas Kwa

2 hours ago, by quartata

34

Q: Seriously, GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth?

Some time ago, the following question was asked: GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth? Based on the title only, I thought that it would be a very nice challenge, but unfortunately, it turned out to be a question asking for tips. Here is the challenge I wanted to read: Who said golfing languages were not...

code-golf parsing

quartata

34

Q: Seriously, GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth?

Some time ago, the following question was asked: GolfScript, CJam, or Pyth? Based on the title only, I thought that it would be a very nice challenge, but unfortunately, it turned out to be a question asking for tips. Here is the challenge I wanted to read: Who said golfing languages were not...

code-golf parsing

Dennis

Oh, that challenge.

It seems to have changed a lot since I read it the last time.

Thomas Kwa

yesterday, by quartata

Doorknob

4:11 AM

I decided to play Nethack

quartata

;(

Doorknob

I found a +1 split mail, gauntlets of power, an apron, an altar, etc. immediately

then I almost got killed by a booby trapped door

that's Nethack for you

quartata

@Doorknob whoa

DL?

Doorknob

5

quartata

DL5 is end-game for me ;(

Doorknob

4:12 AM

haha

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Title Keywords in Context This challenge is based on a problem described in D. Parnas, On the criteria to be used in decomposing systems into modules, and elaborated upon in J. Morris, Real Programming in Functional Languages. Write a program or function which takes a list of book titles from s...

Zach Gates

4:29 AM

:)

quartata

:(

Ooh I really like Milky Ways

Zach Gates

Me too

El'endia Starman

4:51 AM

@NewSandboxedPosts I can't help but think of the Doctor Who version... o_o

orlp

the laws of thermodynamics

4

El'endia Starman

5:15 AM

>>> a = [1,2,3]
>>> b = (4, a, 5)
>>> b
(4, [1, 2, 3], 5)
>>> a[1] = 7
>>> b
(4, [1, 7, 3], 5)

"Immutable" != "unchangeable", as I just found out because I'm reading through the Python docs. :P

xnor

yes, list contents of tuples can be modified

El'endia Starman

I never thought about that before.

orlp

@El'endiaStarman not true

immutable = unchangeable

you haven't changed the tuple

names in Python are all references

El'endia Starman

> (The value of an immutable container object that contains a reference to a mutable object can change when the latter’s value is changed; however the container is still considered immutable, because the collection of objects it contains cannot be changed. So, immutability is not strictly the same as having an unchangeable value, it is more subtle.)

^ straight from the documentation.

orlp

well, then the documentation uses terms wrong for educational simplification

your tuples is (4, <reference to list>, 5)

that never changes

Maltysen

5:21 AM

@orlp no

try changing a=7

b still is (4, [1, 2, 3], 5)

orlp

@Maltysen that changes the name a

I never said

(4, <reference to name a>, 5)

I said (4, <reference to list>, 5)

Maltysen

ah ok

orlp

in fact, you could even say (<reference to int>, <reference to a>, <reference to int>)

Zach Gates

reference to an ID

>>> a = 4
>>> b = 4
>>> id(a)
4297370784
>>> id(b)
4297370784
>>> id(4)
4297370784

El'endia Starman

Try that with a = [] and b = []...and a = b = [].

orlp

5:24 AM

>>> a = (100, 200, 300)
>>> import ctypes
>>> ctypes.cast(id(a[2]), ctypes.POINTER(ctypes.c_int))[6] = 100
>>> a
(100, 200, 100)

I didn't change the tuple

I changed the reference to 300 to hold 100

Zach Gates

>>> id(a)
4317052360
>>> id(b)
4317043336
>>> id([])
4317039432
>>> id([])
4298406600

@El'endiaStarman

orlp

@ZachGates don't use small integers to show off id

they are internalized

meaning they share ids

>>> id(4)
10105920
>>> id(4)
10105920
>>> id(400)
139649668009872
>>> id(400)
139649668007760

Zach Gates

Yeah, but my point was, in your tuple, you used 4

Maltysen

<256 i think

orlp

@ZachGates I could change the value of 4 if you please

Zach Gates

5:26 AM

nvm

El'endia Starman

>>> id(1000)
43281168
>>> a = 1000
>>> id(a)
49989456
>>> id(1000)
43281168
>>> id(1000)
51510032
>>> id(1000)
51510000

It's funny seeing id(1000) change. :P

orlp

actually, 4 segfaults

>>> import ctypes
>>> ctypes.cast(id(49), ctypes.POINTER(ctypes.c_int))[6] = 100
>>> 49
100

yep.

El'endia Starman

o_o

Zach Gates

^

orlp

because 49 is internalized, the expression "49" creates a reference to the object associated with the internalized id for integer 49

I have changed that object to contain an integer 100 object

everything is a reference in Python :)

El'endia Starman

5:30 AM

*mind blown*

orlp

(with probably some exceptions here and there regarding class memory layout)

the expression "257" works differently, because it is not internalized btw

it creates a new integer object containing the value 257

and then gives a reference to that object as the result of the expression

El'endia Starman

What about -10? That'd be a new object too, right?

orlp

correct

El'endia Starman

0-255 fit into a single byte, so that'd make sense.

orlp

although this is in an implementation detail

different implementations of Python might do different things

(all the above was talking about CPython)

El'endia Starman

5:32 AM

uh-huh

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman i beileve its -5 - 256 actually

orlp

be careful though

>>> id(1000)
140607047662096
>>> id(1001)
140607047662096

does 1000 and 1001 share the same id?

El'endia Starman

...o.O

orlp

no, it immediately gets garbage collected

and then the id gets re-used :)

El'endia Starman

>>> {[1]}
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#71>", line 1, in <module>
    {[1]}
TypeError: unhashable type: 'list'

Yet another thing I just learned: you can't put lists into sets.

Which makes sense (how'd you guarantee that all objects are unique?), but again, it's not something I've tried before.

orlp

5:36 AM

@El'endiaStarman because the value of lists might change

El'endia Starman

No wait, that was a dictionary. Silly me.

...

Hold on.

orlp

no, that was a set

{1} is a set containing 1

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman dict and sets are basically the same

El'endia Starman

Oh, nope, a set.

orlp

{1: 3} is a dictionary mapping 1 to 3

Maltysen

5:38 AM

in terms of storing stuff

El'endia Starman

I was momentarily confused by the co-usage of {}.

orlp

the only limitation is that {} is a dictionary, not a set

IMO {,} should be the empty set

or some other notation :P

feersum

I like {:} for the empty dict.

orlp

the ideal for me personally would be {} or {,} empty set and {:} empty dict

but {} being the empty set breaks old code

feersum

Python 3 also breaks old code.

orlp

5:40 AM

@feersum not to this extent

this is a very minor syntactical style issue

which would break nearly every script out there

El'endia Starman

Okay. Reading through the Python docs is starting to convince me that I should just write my next language in Python (or C#) and then use something like Cython to compile it to C code so it runs faster.

feersum

Actually writing it in C would probably be a lot easier.

Maltysen

@El'endiaStarman RPython?

El'endia Starman

@feersum Except that I don't really know C very well and have/had disliked it for a long time.

Maltysen

morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/04/…

El'endia Starman

5:46 AM

I think that if I tried again, I'd do much better because I understand more of how programming languages work "under the hood".

feersum

I haven't actually used Cython so maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but Cython appears to be away to write C code directly into a Python source file.

So if you don't want to write any C you won't like it.

orlp

@El'endiaStarman this is needlessly slow though

if you do it like that you won't fully appreciate one part of compilers

the codegen

lexer -> parser -> semantic analysis -> optimization -> codegen

El'endia Starman

@feersum I might be thinking of something else, but there's a tool that helps you turn Python code into C. I've only tried to use it once, for the sturdy squares thing, and it didn't work out very well. I think it might've been in part because I imported itertools for permutations...

@Maltysen This looks like it might be very useful.

orlp

@El'endiaStarman do this first

norvig.com/lispy.html

Maltysen

lambda calculus is an easy one also

orlp

5:52 AM

anyone here on linux and want to help me for 1 sec?

I want to test if my programming language compiler compiles without any dependencies I wasn't aware of

Maltysen

sure!

is it on github?

orlp

sudo apt-get install ninja

git clone https://github.com/orlp/kwik

cd kwik

ninja

that just builds

if you trust me enough that it's not malware you can also run ./kwik to get the compiler :)

Nathan Merrill

have you guys used Kotlin before?

feersum

You have a build system that doesn't allow arbitrary code execution?!

Nathan Merrill

and did you guys like it?

Maltysen

5:55 AM

uh it it supposed to be frozen after telling me that my user is in the magic group?

or is it like building in the background?

orlp

@Maltysen after which command?

Maltysen

after ninja

is it because i'm root?

orlp

@feersum well, I guess you should inspect the build.ninja

@Maltysen dude, don't build as root man

I mean, it's nice you trust me, but just generally don't

that might even be ninja protecting you

Maltysen

nope, lol: die: error: must run as root

orlp

can you post your command log/output?

Maltysen

5:58 AM

do i have to pass the build file?

orlp

no

Maltysen

cuz its like log: warning: no configuration file specified, using default values

orlp

just please post the commands you entered

and what they printed

Maltysen

<username stuff> >>> sudo ninja
log: warning: no configuration file specified, using default values
log: ninja version 0.1.3 initializing
log: magic group: gid=0 (root)
log: entering main loop
log: generating initial pid array..
log: now monitoring process activity

orlp

ohhhhhhhh

El'endia Starman

5:59 AM

@orlp (sqrt (* 2 8)) ⇒ 4.0 <- I don't get this. Why does this work? Is sqrt already a built-in function?

orlp

I'm stupid

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