The Nineteenth Byte

Rusher

01:02

I stumbled upon the Christianity stack exchange just now, and it's making me sick. Some guy asked "What happens to people who have never heard of Jesus?", and the top voted answer is something like "At the heart of your question is this other unrelated question: Is God fair?"

Seriously, how do they ever get anything done?

And it was closed as not constructive :(

Guys I think we need to invade the Christianity stack exchange and start answering questions with logic and research.

Synthetica

05:56

@Rusher I agree.

Trimsty

06:47

@Rusher woooo

undergroundmonorail

@Trimsty what are you doing up at this time of night

Trimsty

@undergroundmonorail it's 8:50 am :P

undergroundmonorail

huh

it's 2:50 here

am

sleep is for the weak

Trimsty

or the afflicted

;_;

Quincunx

Every computer, at the unreachable memory address 0x-1, stores a secret. I found it, and it is that all humans ar-- SEGMENTATION FAULT.

Trimsty

06:59

@Quincunx ;3

Quincunx

@Gareth Welcome! Been a while since you were active on codegolf (last was May 15th; no, I don't watch your every move and have a photographic memory, I used your profile)

Gareth

@Quincunx I still pop in every day, but no questions have tickled my fancy, and I've not had anything to add to the conversation in chat.

Quincunx

@Gareth That's when I start dreaming up with questions, then writing and posting them.

Needs close vote (I have no idea how this could be made into a good challenge): codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/31544/9498

Trimsty

07:16

how I feel when I answer a question and miss one of the criteria

Quincunx

08:07

I found myself watching my rep closely as it inches closer...

luser droog

08:54

APL competition.

groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.lang.apl/Nkm54pbDTKQ/discussion

user2179021

hi

Synthetica

09:24

0

A: Player with the Stinkiest Armpits

The most truly objective method may be to conduct a scientifically rigorous poll. You will need a random sampling of people from the world, we'll limit it to native English speakers to ensure that translation doesn't become a concern. Each will need to be kidnapped to prevent self-selection bias,...

It got downvoted...

user2179021

10:13

shame

still no answers to codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/30313/… :(

I am surprised given there is so much minimax code available online

Rusher

13:01

@Synthetica Cmon cmon you can make it! You got past the tough part!

Doorknob

14:04

Quick poll: Delete invalid answers (unintentionally breaking the rules) or not?

Ventero

@Doorknob Leave a comment first, if they don't react after a reasonable amount of time, then delete.

Rusher

I retracted my no. Before I vote, I want to draw a corollary to other stack exchanges. If possible, we follow suit. If not (because our format doesn't allow it) then we vote based on what is right.

What would Stack Overflow do to an answer that doesn't address the question being asked?

Ventero

I'm not sure if that situation is comparable, given how often the specs to a question here change after answers have already been posted.

Doorknob

The answer in question:

2

A: DISARM THE B.O.M.B.!

Brainfuck (553) [invalid] So here we go, coded in Brainfuck using this interpreter. I additionally used the '+' key, so thats 543+10 = 553 characters, still room for improvement: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...

Rusher

Well, users on Stack Overflow also change their question in a way that invalidates answers. It's not unique to us.

It's a corner case that should be handled though (after the author is given a good whoopin' for being rude)

If everyone else here is of the mind that everything we do is incomparable to other Stack Exchange sites, I'll just stop (because I know where that road goes)

Geobits

14:17

@Doorknob I gave my opinion of that kind of deletion on meta a while back. It hasn't changed.

New Meta Posts

0

Q: Why don't users vote on my question?

Two days ago number of views on my question hit 1,000. Today it is already 1,510 but it was up voted only once since (it happened today). They vote only on answers. Strange, I didn't face this on other sites. Usually users upvote or downvote my popular questions. Some my questions receive low vie...

discussion

Rusher

@Geobits The italics in that answer are killing me. Every single sentence reads in an annoying voice, where your voice goes up near the end. It just doesn't flow.

Geobits

@Rusher I was in an interesting mood that day. Not much point in going back and editing it out, though.

Rusher

15:11

Can room owners kick other users from a public room?

Doorknob

No, only mods

Rusher

@Doorknob Can you kick a user out of a room I created?

Doorknob

Link?

Rusher

You'll know as soon as you start reading which user I am talking about. He's not being constructive. chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/15032/…

Doorknob

For future reference, use "other" flags to alert moderators to a situation in chat

Rusher

15:25

I thought you would be more understanding than most.

Doorknob

... any context for this? What is EDH and WotC?

Rusher

Just read what MikeCon has been saying. He pulled a quote that I never said. He said something like "Let me process this and get back to you."

Then asked me to get out of the room I just created.

EDH = elder dragon highlander, a mtg format also known as commander

wotc = wizards of the coast, the owners of magic the gathering

ProgramFOX

@Rusher As an alternative, you can make your room a gallery room and only allow specific users to talk.

Doorknob

As far as I can see, the user is just trying to contribute to the discussion (albeit slightly rudely), and not intentionally trolling or being nonconstructive.

Rusher

If you feel that he isn't intentionally trolling then I respect that.

(there is no else to that if)

Madara Uchiha

15:29

@Rusher if you have 1k reputation you can make the room a Gallery, which only allows specific users to talk.

Rusher

So I heard.

Geobits

15:55

Does anyone have opinions on which is a better first introduction to programming? I'm mainly considering either Scratch or Squeakland, and it's for a 7 year old.

I've looked over the intros to both, but it's hard to see how it would look with "fresh" eyes.

Trimsty

@Geobits I started with Scratch back in '08. You learn quickly from it but people tend to stay there longer than they should, because of the community being so nice and there being little incentive/help to learn a "real" language

never heard of squeakland

Geobits

It's also called "eToys", but it's similar to Scratch on first glance. Draw stuff, add logic, based on smalltalk, etc.

Trimsty

@Geobits Meh. I'd suggest you get them introduced to the whole determinism and logical thing with Scratch and then move on to something like Clojure/Rust ASAP (visual programming is a deadly trap if you stay too long)

object-orientedness in these things is severely limited, and types aren't mentioned anywhere

Rusher

Am I interpreting this answer correctly? My undertsanding is that if I wrote a bot that returned to view a page every 15.1 minutes, it would add a view to the question.

Geobits

I could just hand him this book and have him go to town. That's what worked for me, but it might be sliiiightly dated :)

Trimsty

16:06

@Geobits "get things done" books take a lot of patience to do, making somebody else's game isn't fun at all

it'd work if you're genuinely interested as it immediately introduces good practice and correct use of the language's functionality but it isn't very engaging

Geobits

Oh, I agree. Typing crap in wasn't the fun part. Changing the variables around to see what happened was. I probably would not use that book today, but it's all I had then.

@Rusher It looks that way. I guess you could get badges out of it, but meh. Not much point in actively monitoring it IMO.

Trimsty

i like "from the ground up" approaches more, start with registers and explain all the hardware and then immediately tell them to ignore it but remember it and to consider how it all works in the larger abstraction system, that's what I would have done, but Google wasn't being very specific

lisps (especially concurrent lisps) sound like a nice entry point in retrospect

Geobits

For an older kid, I could see that. I don't know how well my son would follow a talk about registers at this point.

Lispy stuff sounds like a good choice, though.

Trimsty

I don't remember anything from before Scratch (like at all) and I don't hang around kids, so I do overestimate a bit ;3

Rusher

@Geobits Not after badges. Trying to help this guy understand site mechanics.

Trimsty

16:12

All I remember is being super-scared of Python because I had to worry about syntax! ooohhhh.

Geobits

Haha, scared of python. Nice.

Rusher

I wish Python IDEs would auto decrease indent by default. Tapping space space space is much easier than typing backspace backspace backspace.

Trimsty

when you use visual languages, it's reeeally hard to get comfortable with text because it feels fragile.

Geobits

@Rusher I figured that's what it was for, just saying that it makes sense they don't keep a full list of visited IP's for every single question.

Trimsty

@Rusher I use tabs and just run a replace all on the tabs to spaces when I'm done, much more convenient to only have to press backspace once and tab once

Geobits

16:14

The only "visual language" I ever used much was VB6, but only for simple forms and such. It felt so weird after having to do everything by hand.

And it's not even really in the same league as Scratch visual-wise.

Trimsty

my advice: when you get into text programming, use a lisp, and use a good ide to do the parentheses/newline indenting and stuff for you

it's not as uncomfortable because making syntactical errors is shielded by the system (just like in visual languages)

why am i giving advice that nobody is asking for on a site full of programming veterans

Geobits

Well, I did start by asking about programming for kids, and it seems like a logical step from there.

I'll see how he does with the kid's stuff and move him into something else when he shows interest in it :)

Trimsty

coolio

i'm planning on learning clojure and scala myself, i have to get used to different kinds of paradigms

Synthetica

17:05

@Geobits I don't know if you have the budget, but you could try getting a Mindstorms set.

Geobits

That's probably a good idea. He does like legos. I haven't ever used MindStorms, is it a better introduction to robotics or programming, or does it work well for both?

Synthetica

It works well for both (it was my first real introduction to programming back when I was 11 or so)

Geobits

I may have to look into that. Thanks!

Trimsty

@Geobits Bit late here. I have the Fischertechnik electronics set, it lets you program via a flowchart. Quite nice.

More expensive than Mindstorms afaik, definitely more useful though

Synthetica

@Geobits Also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotc

Quincunx

17:11

@Quincunx Ha!

Synthetica

(When he's ready for it ;)

Trimsty

i made an electronic highway toll with optical sensing and an attached (had to get hacky for that) python program to track balances

ProgramFOX

@Quincunx Congrats!

3

Trimsty

unfortunately you had to identify yourself with the laptop and it had no verification but the point remains

Geobits

Well, I've got time. He stays with his mom during the summer school break, so I've got a while to take a look at the options.

Doorknob

18:22

Congratulations to our newest 10k member, @Quincunx! :D

mniip

/me is only 2/3 way through :(

By the way, I see @Timtech is recently active again, did he ever leave any comment on his made up language?

Doorknob

@mniip He's always been active, just more "behind-the-scenes" in review queues and whatnot

Also, have you really only been active on PPCG at the beginning of this year? For some reason it feels like you're been around much longer than that :P

mniip

I have

according to my profile I registered November 15th, 2013

Synthetica

@mniip I'm 15% through :D

Doorknob

(@mniip That also means that it can be predicted that you'll have 10k by the beginning of September!)

mniip

18:31

Also, I measure "activity" by how often do I hit their comments/posts

wot

oh

I counted it wrong

Kyle Kanos

@Synthetica I'm almost 18% of the way there & I've been here since Dec 2013

mniip

goddamnit

February 11th, 2013, it is

Trimsty

i'm 6% of the way there

mniip

My first post, however, was in march

Synthetica

@KyleKanos Do note that about 25% of my rep is from a single post ;)

mniip

18:34

/me builds fancy graphs

Kyle Kanos

@Synthetica I have about half of mine from a single post

Doorknob

@mniip stackexchange.com/users/2247678/mniip?tab=reputation

Trimsty

so I've been shunned on IRC, apparently you can't have an opinion like you can on Reddit :I

mniip

/me aborts fancy graphs then

Doorknob

:P

Kyle Kanos

18:36

@Doorknob That's soooo awesome

mniip

shunned? what a <...> network would that be, that gives out shuns

Kyle Kanos

Mine's pretty fancy looking: stackexchange.com/users/1332909/kyle-kanos?tab=reputation

Doorknob

Mine is pretty fancy too. :D

Synthetica

Mine's really really boring: stackexchange.com/users/3427211/synthetica?tab=reputation

Kyle Kanos

I'm about 400 points from being on the first page of All-time users on Physics.SE

Trimsty

18:38

stackexchange.com/users/3813374/trimsty?tab=reputation

Doorknob

You can see my SO rep plateau as I start participating on PPCG and Puzzling more. :P

Trimsty

that spike

Kyle Kanos

@Doorknob I have a SO plateau because I just stopped contributing

Doorknob

@Trimsty No overall change from Mar. 6 to Mar. 11, but there was a fancy spike :P

Kyle Kanos

I was only good for Fortran questions and the Fortran questioners sucked (e.g., bad Q's and no accepts)

Trimsty

18:40

@Doorknob yup

Kyle Kanos

I basically insulted the guy on my best answer. I felt a little bad about that

Doorknob

I am very not proud that my best answer was on a really simple question. :P

Kyle Kanos

I also didn't really like some of the attitudes I saw on SO. The niche site users are infinitely better (even though there's like large cross-overs between them)

Geobits

I used to like my best answer more, but now it's second best. A "simple question" answer has been creeping up in passive rep over the last few months.

mniip

my best answer is about not understanding haskell :(

my second best answer is about not understanding perl

Geobits

18:51

Well my favorite one is absolutely non-useful, so I guess it's not bad (for the site) that it's not my highest-voted one any more. I still like it better. My highest voted might be more useful, but it basically boils down to "try uninstalling it" :)

Synthetica

My best answer is in piss-poor python: a 5-liner that could've been a oneliner: stackoverflow.com/questions/19365008/…

Trimsty

I just hit the under-100 mark on the fib quine problem :DDD

2

A: Fibonacci program lengths

Python 3 - 128 130 118 94 g="%(repr(s),b,a+b);print o+(b-len(o))*'#'";s,a,b="s,a,b=%s,%i,%i;o=s%"+g,89,144;exec("o=s"+g) My perfect character count is gone. ;_; Thanks to TheRare for pointing out the newline thing and Quincunx for suggesting I use Python 2, shaving off 2 chars. EDIT: Now just...

Synthetica

(I'm not very active on SO)

mniip

SO is hard to be active on

You can only laugh, and more often, cry, at the code posted there

Geobits

I used to be really active on SO... then I found meta. Then I found PPCG.

mniip

18:55

I can't be arsed to be active on PPCG meta .-.

Geobits

No, I meant meta.so. My active streak there was fun while it lasted.

mniip

Just curious, does anyone play ingress? :>

Synthetica

I do know someone who is quite active in Ingress

mniip

19:09

I wonder, will Karnaugh mapping make a good code-golf

There's been a question about that, but it was restricted to 4 variables, and required ascii-drawing a circuit

Rusher

19:46

@mniip Karnaugh mapping is a solution to a challenge, not a challenge.

If you can generate a challenge that encourages users to use Karnaugh maps to solve it, you may have something

Most challenges I see that are geared towards forcing users to solve it the way the author wants it to be solved are not very good.

4

mniip

@Rusher no, the other way around. The challenge is to karnaugh-map a binary function

Rusher

Why would anyone want to karnaugh map a binary function? This is a trick question, because the answer is "To solve problem X."

The problem is the challenge. Karnaugh maps are a solution to a problem.

Code-golf challenges are not geared towards great solutions like Karnaugh maps. You'll have to write a spec that makes them want to solve it that way.

mniip

20:08

@Rusher You are not getting it. Creating a karnaugh map is the task

Peter Taylor

@mniip What do you consider a Karnaugh map to be?

mniip

If we have a function defined as a mapping from a tuple of booleans, to a boolean

a Karnaugh mapping would be simplification of the definition to a logical expression

Peter Taylor

I get the impression that Rusher has the same understanding as me of what a Karnaugh map is: a way of presenting a Boolean function which is useful for humans to express the function compactly by hand.

The problem is "Give a minimal expression which is equivalent to this function", and Karnaugh maps are probably not the best way to do that if you're doing it by computer rather than by hand.

mniip

I thought Karnaugh-mapping covers the whole process, not just rendering a human-solvable grid

user55340

21:11

Stumbled across this in Lambda the Ultimate that might interest some here: 2014 APL Programming Competition is Open

user55340

> Dyalog Ltd invites students worldwide to put their programming and problem-solving skills to the test by using any APL system to develop solutions to ten questions and solve a series of problems. This is a contest for people who love a challenge and learning new things for fun, with the added bonus that you can win one of 43 cash prizes totalling $8,500, including a grand prize of $2,500 and a trip to Eastbourne in the U.K. to attend the annual Dyalog Ltd user meeting in September 2014.

Quincunx

21:53

@Doorknob Your's is fancy! Nah. This is much fancier. Note the steepest slope. It's really easy to earn rep here on codegolf.

Also, I've found that the rep comes really fast every now and then, when I give (multiple/extraordinarily) good answers to questions that explode.

Take a look at the sites for my top answers (and questions, but the answers are more obvious): stackexchange.com/users/2136544/quincunx?tab=top. See any patterns?

undergroundmonorail

22:24

@Geobits The first "programming" I ever did was in Basic out of a book similar to that. I was pretty young and didn't own my own computer yet, and wasn't allowed to use it as much as I wanted to. When I got the book from the library I didn't want to waste all my allotted time on it, so I just wrote the code in my head.

It was probably full of bugs and wouldn't even compile, but at the very least the concepts were there.

Quincunx

Or you could give the kid a TI89 calculator and have him figure out how to write programs by sending him on frequent, long, boring train trips (similar to how I learned TI89 Basic, but I learned programming before then)

Rusher

I programmed Blackjack on my TI-89 before I knew how to program

I even drew the cards pixel by pixel and stored them as pictures in one of the 255 memory slots we were given.

I didn't know what a loop was, and so I made it loop by having two copies of the game. When one copy finished, it would call the other copy.

Quincunx

22:52

If you give a kid a TI-89 Titanium Calculator,

He's going to look for the programming app.

When he finds the programming app,

He'll probably start playing around with it.

When he finishes, he'll be yearning for more.

Then he'll find Programming Puzzles and Code Golf
and wonder at fascination at the many languages.

When he looks on Programming Puzzles and Code Golf,

He'll realize that he wants to learn more languages.

So he'll probably look for online tutorials.

When he's finished learning one language,

2

Doorknob

23:06

Now for sale at your nearest bookstore: @Quincunx: The Novel

:P

Quincunx

23:17

Not really my story though. So: based on a real story.

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